Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[cicfada]

Isn't their complaint partly, that  they got no courtmartial so let them now be courtmartialled now, be found guilty and then pardoned!! The gov. could then say that they were found  guilty of desertion but  would then be given a pardon due to the cirucmstances!!  Whatever else I don't want anyone  going around saying that the nation has matured as a result of this!

[Maguire01]

It appears that Sinn Féin will back the pardon, according to The Times.

Are you saying you agree with them? That would be a first. Me, i would giving no pardon and apparently I am a shinner.

I just thought it was a significant story - not what you might have expected.

[mylestheslasher]

It appears that Sinn Féin will back the pardon, according to The Times.

Are you saying you agree with them? That would be a first. Me, i would giving no pardon and apparently I am a shinner.

I just thought it was a significant story - not what you might have expected.

Go on, you can do it....

1,2,3 .... "I AGREE WITH SINN FEIN"

You'll feel much better when you get it out of your system 

[Maguire01]

It appears that Sinn Féin will back the pardon, according to The Times.

Are you saying you agree with them? That would be a first. Me, i would giving no pardon and apparently I am a shinner.

I just thought it was a significant story - not what you might have expected.

Go on, you can do it....

1,2,3 .... "I AGREE WITH SINN FEIN"

You'll feel much better when you get it out of your system 

To be honest, I don't have strong feelings either way on this matter.

Although i'm sure i'd agree with Sinn Féin on many things. It's just easier to spot the disagreements!

[muppet]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

[Rossfan]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

Progress to what exactly ? Re joining the UK?

[muppet]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

Progress to what exactly ? Re joining the UK?

Progress 'from' the past. The 'to' is debatable.

[Ulick]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

How so?

[muppet]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

How so?

Have they always been this sympathetic to Irishmen in British Army Uniforms?

[Maguire01]

It must be said that if Sinn Féin does support the pardon, then it certainly is progress.

How so?

Have they always been this sympathetic to Irishmen in British Army Uniforms?

I don't know if 'progress' is the appropriate word in this case. But it defnitely appears to be another shift in position.

[mylestheslasher]

It's populist to appease the new mature Ireland who mistake showing respect for neighbouring nations with pardoning deserters sworn to protect Ireland. On this sf are involved in populist politics.

[Evil Genius]

Finally:


Irish Government confirms pardon for Irish deserters who fought Hitler

Minister for Justice Alan Shatter signals recognition for those who fought in British Army

By PATRICK COUNIHAN, IrishCentral Staff Writer

Published Wednesday, January 25, 2012, 7:28 AM

The Irish government is to pardon the thousands of soldiers who deserted their own army to fight for the British in the Second World War.

Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has confirmed that the 5,000 troops will be officially pardoned by the State after fighting for the Allies. He has also criticised the war-time government's attitude towards German Jews.

Campaigners are now hopeful that the Irish parliament will issue an apology to the men as well, many of whom were blacklisted and denied state jobs when they returned home.

Attorney General Maire Whelan is to advise Minister Shatter on how to proceed with the pardon.
The Fine Gael deputy has told the Irish Times that he regards the dishonourable discharge of soldiers who left to fight for the Allies as 'untenable'.

Shatter also acknowledged that the soldiers who died have been honored in Ireland for the past decade for their War efforts despite their lack of state recognition.

He said: "Many who fought in British uniforms during that war returned to Ireland. For too many years, their contribution in preserving European and Irish democracy was ignored.

"Some of those include members of our Defence Forces who left this island during that time to fight for freedom and who were subsequently dishonourably discharged from the Defence Forces."

Minister Shatter told the Irish Times that is now 'appropriate' to review their treatment while also acknowledging that those who served in the Defence Forces throughout that time performed a crucial national duty.

He added: "It is untenable that we commemorate those who died whilst continuing to ignore the manner in which our State treated the living, in the period immediately after World War II, who returned to our State having fought for freedom and democracy."

A total of 4,983 Irish soldiers deserted from the Defence Forces to join the Allied armies during the Second World War.

Many of those who returned home were refused military pensions and were debarred from a range of State employment on the basis of an Emergency Powers Order passed by the Irish parliament in 1945.

Northern Ireland's Assembly, including Sinn Fein members, voted on Monday to back the campaign for pardons.

Speaking at the opening of The Shoah in Europe exhibition in Dublin, Shatter also said: "It is of vital importance that this and future generations remember and learn from the horrors of the past.

"In the 1930s practically all visa requests from German Jews were refused by the Irish authorities.

"This position was maintained from 1939 to 1945 and we should no longer be in denial that, in the context of the Holocaust, Irish neutrality was a principle of moral bankruptcy.

"This moral bankruptcy was compounded by the then Irish government who, after the war, only allowed an indefensibly small number who survived the concentration camps to settle permanently in Ireland and also by the visit of President de Valera to then German ambassador Edouard Hempel in 1945 to express his condolences on the death of Hitler.

"At a time when neutrality should have ceased to be an issue the government utterly lost its moral compass."

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Shatter-confirms-Second-World-War-soldiers-to-be-officially-pardoned-by-Irish-state-138031383.html#ixzz1kgBaxcqb

Some further interesting comment/background:
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-Minister-says-Irelands-neutrality-on-Hitler-was-morally-bankrupt-138191239.html

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Why-Irish-soldiers-who-fought-against-Hitler-and-the-Nazis-had-to-hide-their-medals-136367173.html#ixzz1kfanwmMy

[Hardy]

Who mandated Shatter the Zionist gobshite to make such a statement? Is this a ministerial pronouncement of an official government position? If Ireland's neutrality in WWI was morally bankrupt, there were a lot of morally bankrupt regimes about in 1939 and most that purged their bankruptcy only did so when attacked - including, of course, the USA.

It should be realised that this is simply a pardon for reprehensible behaviour; it does not encompass the suggestion that these deserters should be regarded as heroes.

[muppet]

Who mandated Shatter the Zionist gobshite to make such a statement? Is this a ministerial pronouncement of an official government position? If Ireland's neutrality in WWI was morally bankrupt, there were a lot of morally bankrupt regimes about in 1939 and most that purged their bankruptcy only did so when attacked - including, of course, the USA.

It should be realised that this is simply a pardon for reprehensible behaviour; it does not encompass the suggestion that these deserters should be regarded as heroes.

He is entitled to overturn their dishonorable discharge for desertion. The rest is waffle.

[Evil Genius]

Who mandated Shatter the Zionist gobshite to make such a statement?

Just because you disagree with Shatter's position re Israel, it does not give you the excuse to abuse him over his/his Government's stance on Eire's position re WWII.

Is this a ministerial pronouncement of an official government position?

It would appear so (at least, that's how it's being widely reported).

If Ireland's neutrality in WWI was morally bankrupt, there were a lot of morally bankrupt regimes about in 1939 and most that purged their bankruptcy only did so when attacked...

Actually, there weren't that  many Neutral countries (in Europe, at any rate). But in any case, whether there was one other, or 100 others, that does not alter the principle at issue.

... including, of course, the USA.

Really?
"When the war broke out in 1939, [President Roosevelt] proclaimed a limited emergency and authorized increases in the size of the Regular Army and the National Guard. Congress also agreed to amend the Neutrality Act to permit munitions sales to the French and British.
Meanwhile, in the Pacific, Japan had invaded Manchuria. Roosevelt reacted by shutting off American trade with Japan.  This made the Japanese even more aggressive since they needed resources from abroad to feed their industries. Japan decided to invade the resource-rich British and Dutch colonies in Southeast Asia."
http://www.worldwariihistory.info/in/USA.html

It should be realised that this is simply a pardon for reprehensible behaviour; it does not encompass the suggestion that these deserters should be regarded as heroes.

No-one is suggesting that the State should now regard these people as "heroes" (even if individuals should do so, including all those Europeans etc whom they helped liberate*).
Rather this pardon is merely State recognition that whatever one thinks about what these soldiers did, their subsequent treatment by De Valera was unjustifiable and unlawful (or "reprehensible", if you prefer), not least for the effect that it had on their families.

Considering there are an estimated 100 still alive, I am pleased that they've finally got round to this, even if it might have happened much sooner.


* - Here is one of the people we're talking about:
Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.

One of them, 92-year-old Phil Farrington, took part in the D-Day landings and helped liberate the German death camp at Bergen-Belsen - but he wears his medals in secret.

Even to this day, he has nightmares that he will be arrested by the authorities and imprisoned for his wartime service.

"They would come and get me, yes they would," he said in a frail voice at his home in the docks area of Dublin.

And his 25-year-old grandson, Patrick, confirmed: "I see the fear in him even today, even after 65 years."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211