Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[Evil Genius]

Good to see them recognised at last. The Irish did alot in WW2. Didn't know they were punished for doing it.

Indeed.

Cavanman helped soften up Rommel for Monty you know.

Himself of solid Ulster stock:
Montgomery was born in Kennington, London, in 1887, the fourth child of nine, to an Anglo-Irish Anglican priest, the Revd Henry Montgomery, and Maud Montgomery (née Farrar). Henry Montgomery, at the time the Vicar of St Mark's, Kennington, was the second son of the noted Indian administrator, Sir Robert Montgomery, who died a month after Bernard's birth. Bernard's mother Maud was the daughter of the well-known preacher Frederic William Farrar, and was 18 years younger than her husband. After the death of Sir Robert Montgomery, Henry inherited the Montgomery ancestral estate of New Park at Moville, a town on the Inishowen Peninsula of north County Donegal in the west of Ulster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery,_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_of_Alamein

[muppet]

EG your high moral ground is merely a mass grave.

WWII for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

The strange thing about that article is that, while it blames 'The Indian Government' many times, it only once vaguely mentions that India was under British Rule at the time.

[Myles Na G.]

These men deserve a pardon and an apology and hopefully they will get it before much longer. A shameful episode in the history of the Irish state.

Also deserving a pardon are the 300+ men 'shot at dawn' by the British Army for deserting during the First World War. Many were shell shocked, many were boys rather than men.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Interesting bit of categorisation amongst your existentialist musings, there - "Brits, wannabe Brits or Unionists".  For inconvenient though it may be to your argument, Unionists are  "Brits".

If you think that those folk from Britain (the real British  ), and amongst whom you currently dwell, think of you as anything other than an out-and-out Paddy then you're even more (incredibly) delusional than I had you noted for; "Brits" to them you most certainly aren't (unless you now speak with a Cockney twang or such).

[mylestheslasher]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified. I would be interested to know why it was they did what they did so for that reason I may try and tune in.

[Hardy]

were brutally punished on their return home

Brutally? Perhaps, but not by comparison with the norm for desertion. Don't most armies shoot deserters in times of emergency?

Just seen a further report on this by John Waite on TV.

Apparently in some cases, Dev's Government took their children from them and placed them in State institutions*.

Perhaps they should have shot the children, too?


* - And we all know what many of those were like...

"Too"? I've seen some weird debating devices in my time but ...
They didn't shoot ANYONE.
And I never suggested they should have shot anyone, never mind the children.
So I'm at a loss as to what that remark can mean.

[Rossfan]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified.

+1.

[Myles Na G.]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified. I would be interested to know why it was they did what they did so for that reason I may try and tune in.

You must've missed the bit about them being placed on a list and effectively blackballed for the rest of their lives - bit stronger than simply removing their pensions. Also, strange that the Irish government only took such drastic action against those that joined the British Army to fight fascism. Those who simply deserted to become criminals and prey on their fellow citizens weren't subjected to the same draconian punishments.

[mylestheslasher]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified. I would be interested to know why it was they did what they did so for that reason I may try and tune in.

You must've missed the bit about them being placed on a list and effectively blackballed for the rest of their lives - bit stronger than simply removing their pensions. Also, strange that the Irish government only took such drastic action against those that joined the British Army to fight fascism. Those who simply deserted to become criminals and prey on their fellow citizens weren't subjected to the same draconian punishments.

The fact is Myles, you don't have a clue about the irish army or irish history outside of what a castle catholic knows abouts the history of the 6 counties. People who deserted to become criminals would would have been caught and charged as criminals and done time for it if found guilty. However, leaving to join another army is a different matter altogether as you well know. Especially an army that the republic had a very frosty relationship with.  And if being "blackballed" is too harsh, I suppose you'd prefer they were shot like what their new army would've done to them?

[anglocelt39]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified. I would be interested to know why it was they did what they did so for that reason I may try and tune in.

Maybe they found fascism a small bit distasteful and decided to have the courage of their convictions.

[Myles Na G.]

5000 switched uniforms = 5000 deserted the army they took a vow to and joined another army. 5000 were instructed by their government to remain neutral and they disobeyed and took a side. When they returned they were to be punished by having their pension removed - what did they expect, to be welcomed as heroes. This is a totally different issue than your average joe on the street heading off to join the british army. These men were deserters and as Hardy said, the british army and german army dealt with such people in a much more brutal fashion than dev did. Saying that, i see no reason that any outstanding  "action" against these men should continue (and i seriously doubt anyone is too bothered about chasing them for their crimes today). However, I certainly don't think their actions should be glorified. I would be interested to know why it was they did what they did so for that reason I may try and tune in.

You must've missed the bit about them being placed on a list and effectively blackballed for the rest of their lives - bit stronger than simply removing their pensions. Also, strange that the Irish government only took such drastic action against those that joined the British Army to fight fascism. Those who simply deserted to become criminals and prey on their fellow citizens weren't subjected to the same draconian punishments.

The fact is Myles, you don't have a clue about the irish army or irish history outside of what a castle catholic knows abouts the history of the 6 counties. People who deserted to become criminals would would have been caught and charged as criminals and done time for it if found guilty. However, leaving to join another army is a different matter altogether as you well know. Especially an army that the republic had a very frosty relationship with.  And if being "blackballed" is too harsh, I suppose you'd prefer they were shot like what their new army would've done to them?

The men weren't court martialled. De Valera took it upon himself to decide they were guilty and denied the men their right to any sort of hearing or defence. I note you say in a previous post that you'll tune in to hear why these men did what they did. De Valera denied these men the right to explain themselves to a court, civil or military, and to the Irish people.

[Aerlik]

After the death of Sir Robert Montgomery, Henry inherited the Montgomery ancestral estate of New Park at Moville, a town on the Inishowen Peninsula of north County Donegal in the west of Ulster.[/i]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery,_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_of_Alamein

Two things Equitable Gobshite....

(1)  The name "Montgomery" is not a Moville/Donegal/Irish name - it is the name of a planter family.  Nothing "ancestral" about it. 

(2)  You obviously are in a very tight corner as you are citing Wikipedia - no-one in academia EVER cites Wikipedia as a source/reference. 

[Maguire01]

After the death of Sir Robert Montgomery, Henry inherited the Montgomery ancestral estate of New Park at Moville, a town on the Inishowen Peninsula of north County Donegal in the west of Ulster.[/i]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery,_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_of_Alamein

Two things Equitable Gobshite....

(1)  The name "Montgomery" is not a Moville/Donegal/Irish name - it is the name of a planter family.  Nothing "ancestral" about it. 

(2)  You obviously are in a very tight corner as you are citing Wikipedia - no-one in academia EVER cites Wikipedia as a source/reference.

The gaaboard hardly constitutes academia though, does it?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Good to see them recognised at last. The Irish did alot in WW2. Didn't know they were punished for doing it.

Indeed.

Cavanman helped soften up Rommel for Monty you know.

Himself of solid Ulster stock:
Montgomery was born in Kennington, London, in 1887, the fourth child of nine, to an Anglo-Irish Anglican priest, the Revd Henry Montgomery, and Maud Montgomery (née Farrar). Henry Montgomery, at the time the Vicar of St Mark's, Kennington, was the second son of the noted Indian administrator, Sir Robert Montgomery, who died a month after Bernard's birth. Bernard's mother Maud was the daughter of the well-known preacher Frederic William Farrar, and was 18 years younger than her husband. After the death of Sir Robert Montgomery, Henry inherited the Montgomery ancestral estate of New Park at Moville, a town on the Inishowen Peninsula of north County Donegal in the North-west of UlsterIreland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery,_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_of_Alamein

Donegal is 26 county territory lest you forget.

There is one thing joining the armed forces of another country, but deserting your own army to join another army, well that is treason as far as I am concerned.

I have a question for you E.G., in relative terms a similar % of British would come to 50,000. If 50,000 British soldiers had deserted to join the army of neutral Ireland, do you really think they would be treated with any common courtesy on the Island of Britain or among the Unionist community of Ireland's North-East? I would be pretty sure they would be still unforgiven.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

After the death of Sir Robert Montgomery, Henry inherited the Montgomery ancestral estate of New Park at Moville, a town on the Inishowen Peninsula of north County Donegal in the west of Ulster.[/i]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery,_1st_Viscount_Montgomery_of_Alamein

Two things Equitable Gobshite....

(1)  The name "Montgomery" is not a Moville/Donegal/Irish name - it is the name of a planter family.  Nothing "ancestral" about it. 

Why can't a planter name be as ancestoral as a Cambro-Norman name, a Norse name, a Gall-Gael, Scot-Gael or Cambro-Norman and Norse gaelized names found all over Ireland? Is it a case of Pre-Confederacy of Kilkenny invaders good, the rest bad?