Record numbers of free staters flock to join British Army

[Puckoon]

I don't think its ironic at all - and obviously neither do these two hypothetical youngsters. Irony doesnt come into it at the level of people who don't care about this (non) issue. They are happy enough seeing the dough, or the training/travel/lifeopportunites etc. With the NHS as bad as it has always been - it appears that only people with surpreme social consciences, and/or supreme political leanings can find an axe to grind with their decisions. They certainly arent looking down this hypothetical path just to grind hardline Irish gears Myles.

The fact remains that the younger people coming up don't care about the politics of these decisions - the probably don't even see the politics of these decisions - and that can only be good for future generations if it means this kind of discussion gets washed away. Like Minder said on the united ireland thread - and I said here - many people don't care about whatever it is that is bugging you and bugging MGHU. The bigger picture for people of real life issues cuts a lot of ties.

So you effectively agree with what I said at the start of this thread, that these people are mercenaries that don't give a shit about what they are doing as long as they have a good experience?

No, I disagree fully with that. There isn't anything mercenary about it. Some Most people just don't care about this the same way you do. Call them what you want - mercenary is political bullshit.

[mylestheslasher]

I don't think its ironic at all - and obviously neither do these two hypothetical youngsters. Irony doesnt come into it at the level of people who don't care about this (non) issue. They are happy enough seeing the dough, or the training/travel/lifeopportunites etc. With the NHS as bad as it has always been - it appears that only people with surpreme social consciences, and/or supreme political leanings can find an axe to grind with their decisions. They certainly arent looking down this hypothetical path just to grind hardline Irish gears Myles.

The fact remains that the younger people coming up don't care about the politics of these decisions - the probably don't even see the politics of these decisions - and that can only be good for future generations if it means this kind of discussion gets washed away. Like Minder said on the united ireland thread - and I said here - many people don't care about whatever it is that is bugging you and bugging MGHU. The bigger picture for people of real life issues cuts a lot of ties.

So you effectively agree with what I said at the start of this thread, that these people are mercenaries that don't give a shit about what they are doing as long as they have a good experience?

No, I disagree fully with that. There isn't anything mercenary about it. Some Most people just don't care about this the same way you do. Call them what you want - mercenary is political bullshit.

MOST people dont care and would join a foreign army to have a career in the same way as they might join Microsoft. I'm sorry but I don't need a red C poll to know that is a load of garbage. Maybe you are out of contact with life in the republic because I don't know one person who has done this.

Puckoon - Whats the purpose of an army?

[Puckoon]

No - Most people wouldn't be getting their underbritches all twisted up about it. Big - yet subtle difference.

This is not about the rights and wrongs of you or me joining the british army - it's about the fact that it's got shag all to do with you - or me what anyone else does in that regard - much less suggesting the audacity to remove their passports from them.

[mylestheslasher]

No - Most people wouldn't be getting their underbritches all twisted up about it. Big - yet subtle difference.

This is not about the rights and wrongs of you or me joining the british army - it's about the fact that it's got shag all to do with you - or me what anyone else does in that regard - much less suggesting the audacity to remove their passports from them.

I'm just stating my opinion and it doesn't keep me up at night if thats what you are implying. As you say it has shag all to do with me but this is a discussion board where we can all say what we think about a topic.

[Puckoon]

That is true.

[Applesisapples]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

I have come across this in England.

I had a row with an Australian about this on a crowded Melbourne Connex train.

They Myth is alive and well in the former British Empire, where the Irish are often percieved as the traitors to the crown and we deserved all the hardship dished upon us by our neighbours.

I'd rather be a traitor to the crown than a lickspittle.

[thebigfella]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

I have come across this in England.

I had a row with an Australian about this on a crowded Melbourne Connex train.

They Myth is alive and well in the former British Empire, where the Irish are often percieved as the traitors to the crown and we deserved all the hardship dished upon us by our neighbours.

IMO your a bullshitter, 10 years in England, 3 years in OZ, a year in NZ (Uni, working and still working with a number of English etc.) and I never have come across this. I have come across people having issues with the Northern situation but that has happened in the south also. Do you ever think that maybe (If in fact this did happen  ) they are just responding to some political nonsense/attack you are spouting at them about their county/citizens/etc?

To be honest some of the generalisations you come out with at time are prejudiced and borderline xenophobic.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

No doubt a lot of Unionists/Loyalists have fallen for myth and inaccuracy when assessing Eire's record in The Emergency.
I hope that I am not one of them.

EG,

I have no desire to go into a Lynchboy-style parsing line by line.

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

I never stated anyone should be grateful  for any particular actions by Eire but to state that acknowledging these actions (however small) they were doesn't fit with the "right" view.  Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

I have come across this in England.

I had a row with an Australian about this on a crowded Melbourne Connex train.

They Myth is alive and well in the former British Empire, where the Irish are often percieved as the traitors to the crown and we deserved all the hardship dished upon us by our neighbours.

IMO your a bullshitter, 10 years in England, 3 years in OZ, a year in NZ (Uni, working and still working with a number of English etc.) and I never have come across this. I have come across people having issues with the Northern situation but that has happened in the south also. Do you ever think that maybe (If in fact this did happen  ) they are just responding to some political nonsense/attack you are spouting at them about their county/citizens/etc?

To be honest some of the generalisations you come out with at time are prejudiced and borderline xenophobic.

You can have that opinion if you like, but I have come across this in Australia, the Melbourne train incident was with one of these wacko-Christians trying to convert me. When I was having none of it, he broke into shite about WW2 and Ireland supporting the Nazis.

You never came across the ANZAC cult and the belief in the the righteousness of the British Empire in Australia, I am amazed.   

Yes I have come across it in England (it is a tiny minority), but I have come across it more than a few times.

Xenophobic, how and when?, I would be disappointed if I have.

[Ulick]

At the end of the day does anyone really give a tinkers curse what the Brits, wannabe Brits or Unionists think about us? They're all largely irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.

[Evil Genius]

At the end of the day does anyone really give a tinkers curse what the Brits, wannabe Brits or Unionists think about us? They're all largely irrelevant in the grander scheme of things.

Hmmm.

Interesting bit of categorisation amongst your existentialist musings, there - "Brits, wannabe Brits or Unionists".  For inconvenient though it may be to your argument, Unionists are  "Brits".

Still, I'm sure we Brits don't give a tin ker's cuss what you call us either, since names don't mean a great deal in the grand scheme of things.

Ain't that right, Donagh Ulick?

[Main Street]

My main point is that I think that Unionism/Loyalism paint a blacker than black picture of Eire's neutrality in WW11. 

...... Reading some unionist views (even on your own parish of OWC before the locks went on) I see Eire's neutrality painted more as pro-Nazi. (anchored around DeValera's famous visit to the German ambassador).

......Outside of unionism I don't think that analysis is widely shared. 

/Jim.

Indeed, there is a huge gulf between a historical study of WW2 neutrality and analysing that period of history from a Loyalist perspective.

[Evil Genius]

An interesting Radio programme due in the New Year:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16287211
Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

By John Waite (BBC Radio 4, Face the Facts)


John Stout: "I feel very betrayed about how we were treated, it was wrong"

Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.

One of them, 92-year-old Phil Farrington, took part in the D-Day landings and helped liberate the German death camp at Bergen-Belsen - but he wears his medals in secret.

Even to this day, he has nightmares that he will be arrested by the authorities and imprisoned for his wartime service.

"They would come and get me, yes they would," he said in a frail voice at his home in the docks area of Dublin.

And his 25-year-old grandson, Patrick, confirmed: "I see the fear in him even today, even after 65 years."

Mr Farrington's fears are not groundless.

He was one of about 5,000 Irish soldiers who deserted their own neutral army to join the war against fascism and who were brutally punished on their return home as a result.

They were formally dismissed from the Irish army, stripped of all pay and pension rights, and prevented from finding work by being banned for seven years from any employment paid for by state or government funds.

A special "list" was drawn up containing their names and addresses, and circulated to every government department, town hall and railway station - anywhere the men might look for a job.

It was referred to in the Irish parliament - the Dail - at the time as a "starvation order", and for many of their families the phrase became painfully close to the truth.

Paddy Reid - whose father and uncle both fought the Japanese at the battle of Kohima Ridge - recalls a post-war childhood in Dublin spent "moving from one slum to another".

Maybe one slice of bread a day and that would be it - no proper clothing, no proper heating.

"My father was blacklisted and away all the time, picking turnips or whatever work he could get. It's still painful to remember. We were treated as outcasts."

John Stout served with the Irish Guards armoured division which raced to Arnhem to capture a key bridge.

He also fought in the Battle of the Bulge, ending the war as a commando.

On his return home to Cork, however, he was treated as a pariah. "What they did to us was wrong. I know that in my heart. They cold-shouldered you. They didn't speak to you.

"They didn't understand why we did what we did. A lot of Irish people wanted Germany to win the war - they were dead up against the British."

It was only 20 years since Ireland had won its independence after many centuries of rule from London, and the Irish list of grievances against Britain was long - as Gerald Morgan, long-time professor of history at Trinity College, Dublin, explains.

"The uprisings, the civil war, all sorts of reneged promises - I'd estimate that 60% of the population expected or indeed hoped the Germans would win.

"To prevent civil unrest, Eamon de Valera had to do something. Hence the starvation order and the list."

Ireland adopted a policy of strict neutrality which may have been necessary politically or even popular, but a significant minority strongly backed Britain, including tens of thousands of Irish civilians who signed up to fight alongside the 5,000 Irish servicemen who switched uniforms.

Confidential list

Until I showed him the list - the size of a slim phone directory and marked "confidential" - John Stout had not realised his name was included.

But after the war it quickly became apparent that he could not get work and was not welcome in Ireland - so he returned to Britain.

"I feel very betrayed about how we were treated, it was wrong and even today they should say sorry for the problems we had to endure. We never even got to put our case or argue why it was unjust," said Mr Stout.

And the list itself is far from accurate, according to Robert Widders, who has written a book about the deserters' treatment called Spitting on a Soldier's Grave.

Eamon de Valera inspects his country's neutral army
"It contains the names of men who were to be punished but who'd already been killed in action, but not the names of men who deserted the Irish army to spend their war years as burglars or thieves," he said.

In recent months, a number of Irish parliamentarians have begun pressing their government to issue a pardon to the few deserters who remain alive.

"What happened to them was vindictive and not only a stain on their honour but on the honour of Ireland," TD Gerald Nash said.

But for those nonagenarians who helped win the war but lost so much by doing so, time is of the essence, and it is running out fast.

Face the Facts - Deserters Deserted will be on BBC Radio 4 at 12.30GMT on Wednesday 4 January 2012 and will be available to listen to afterwards online.

[Hardy]

were brutally punished on their return home

Brutally? Perhaps, but not by comparison with the norm for desertion. Don't most armies shoot deserters in times of emergency?

[Denn Forever]

Good to see them recognised at last. The Irish did alot in WW2. Didn't know they were punished for doing it.

Cavanman helped soften up Rommel for Monty you know.

[Evil Genius]

were brutally punished on their return home

Brutally? Perhaps, but not by comparison with the norm for desertion. Don't most armies shoot deserters in times of emergency?

Just seen a further report on this by John Waite on TV.

Apparently in some cases, Dev's Government took their children from them and placed them in State institutions*.

Perhaps they should have shot the children, too?


* - And we all know what many of those were like...