Refugees

Started by Mayo4Sam14, September 03, 2015, 04:42:21 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

give her dixie

next stop, September 10, for number 4......

give her dixie

'Razor wire is for criminals': German firms refuse to sell materials for Hungary's refugee fence

https://www.rt.com/news/315589-razor-wire-hungary-germany/
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

armaghniac

Quote from: give her dixie on September 17, 2015, 03:27:23 AM
'Razor wire is for criminals': German firms refuse to sell materials for Hungary's refugee fence

https://www.rt.com/news/315589-razor-wire-hungary-germany/

Arrogance from the country that caused all of this. If Germany wants refugees it should fly them from Turkey and not require then to walk for 1000 Km spreading lawlessness in every country they pass through.  And Russian TV is hardly a neutral source either, exactly how many refugees have Russia taken?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Lar Naparka

Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:19:25 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on September 16, 2015, 09:45:30 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 01:29:41 PM
You're largely correct Lar although you're talking about a number of entirely separate issues. The question of taking in refugees rather than leaving them to die is what we are currently talking about in terms of accepting people into this country. How they are treated is important though and you're right, they should be afforded the same rights and opportunities as any Irish worker.

QuoteI may be wrong and some of the welcome to all to all brigade may know otherwise, but I don't know of a single non-national with professional qualifications who has walked into any sort of job other than a menial one.

You don't know any non-national who is working in a job other than a menial one?? Are you for real?? Not even a British or American?? You need to get out more Lar

QuoteIt transpired that the workers, non-nationals and Irish alike, were getting just €300 a week when  the company announced pay cuts. Others were desperate enough to rush forward looking to take their jobs.

This has nothing to do with immigrant workers here never mind refugees!!! It's unscrupulous Irish employers (and consumers) as well as lax regulation and / or enforcement of the regulations.

You don't know any non-national who is working in a job other than a menial one?? Are you for real?? Not even a British or American?? You need to get out more Lar

Ah, FFS Mac, you can do better than that surely! ;D ;D
How many Americans or Brits do you know who have arrived here, unable to speak the language, don't know their rights and are desperate to get a job of any sort? Or how many of them are refugees of any sort?
How many Armenian architects or Syrian surgeons have you come across who have found work in their own specialist fields?

This (Greyhound) has nothing to do with immigrant workers here never mind refugees!!! It's unscrupulous Irish employers (and consumers) as well as lax regulation and / or enforcement of the regulations.
With due (ie feck all) respect, I beg to differ. It's very much about the point I'm making. It definitely is unscrupulous Irish employers etc etc. who are the culprits here. The reason is that no one seems to care or even be aware of what's going on in the general employment sector.
Yeah, I know this topic is about the present crisis but I thought I made it clear that I was thinking of the influx of refugees that began around 2008, at the height of the boom. Maybe that part of the reason why
we differ on some points.

So when you talk about non-nationals Lar, you're talking about non-English speakers?? Immigrants? Or refugees? Is your assertion that none work in specialised fields based on your actual experience or just an assumption?
My, you're digging deep here but I'll try to do my best...
If you recall, I mentioned at the beginning of my first post, that I took exception to what Alan Kelly had to say on the subject of incoming Syrian refugees.  If he were to be believed, the refugees in question could expect a genuine welcome and those with "special skills" would be a positive addition to our economy- or something along those lines. Yup, I certainly know sme immigrants/ non-nationals or whatever with professional qualifications who can't get work in their specialist fields. One doesn't have to lok very hard to find examples either.
From my experience and what others have to say, they can expect nothing of the sort.
IMHO, the labour scene is regulated by big business interests, due to lack of supervision and lax regulations.
Once, when Mary Harney was in Cabinet, she got a good going over from Vincent Browne (I think) on the subject of refugees flooding onto the l abour market.
Her reply was that if there was ever going to be a scarcity of jobs, the government would cut back on the number of work permits granted. To me, that means that humanitarian reasons has eff all do do with the number of refugees allowed into the country at any time. There are there to provide a source of cheap labour and that's about it. I don't notice anything different now
Any one telling them they are welcome and then doing damn all about what happens when they arrive annoys me very much.
BTW, for me, charity begins at home and I certainly don't like the way some people who are as Irish as you or I are being exploited either. Working pay and conditions have worsened are we are regressing to the James Larkin era.

I am thinking of non-English people mainly when I talk about the flood of refugees seeking to get in.  You may know otherwise but I don't know of any significant t number of refugees from any English-speaking country.
Americans? British? Canadians? Aussies?
You appear to think otherwise but unless you enlighten me, I don't know what you mean.
When referring to those coming in, I'd prefer to use the term "immigrants" because that's what they are. Seems the PC brigade prefers "non-Nationals" as if that somehow sanitises the reality.
I used both to keep everyone happy.
Agus sin a bhfuil.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

AZOffaly

Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.

foxcommander

Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

Lar Naparka

Quote from: AZOffaly on September 17, 2015, 11:21:54 AM
Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.
Okay, Az, as one gentleman to another, I'll attempt to enlighten you.
You know quite  few from other countries who have good jobs here and so do I. Obviously, the standard of education in some of the countries in question iis at least as good, if not better, than we have here.There's one hell of a difference although between someone coming here with a job waiting or with definite leads to where he might find one. It happens all the time.
But did any of the immigrants you mention come here without an arse to their trousers or a shirt to their back? Did some or all of them have a working command of English and were aware of the rights of workers in our society?
I know an individual who worked for one of the 3 big supermarket chains.  He was a store manager and quite happy with his pay and conditions when he received a very attractive retirement package.
This was in 2010 when the the economy had started to unravel and he was only in his late 40s and happy with his job. Anyway, he took the money and got out.
But he thought it odd that others with any decent period of service clocked up got similar offers.
He felt opt was some sort of shift in  company policy that led to the retirement offers but it didn't concern him unduly
He quickly found out that his surmise was correct but he didn't expect what that change was going to be..
He stays in contact with the management as he gets asked in from time to time to cover for someone who is absent ot to help out at busy periods and the likes.
New employees can be let go at a week's notice. They get the bare minimum wage but are forced to work extra hours without pay so effectively they get less than the minimum wage. They get 20 hours guaranteed work but the management decides where and when they work these hours. Someone could turn up for work and then be let go home after, say, two hours even though they had been told to be on call for eight.
I'm no expert on labour laws but it seems that if anyone working a twenty hours minimum week can get a social welfare top up if they work for only three days. However, if their employed hours extend into the fourth or fifth day, they won't get this top up at all.
I think it's fair to say that this company's policies are the norm elsewhere.
Now if the worker in question comes here as a refugee of any sort or happens to be a fellow-citizen down on his/her luck makes no difference to me. They are all human beings and deserve at the very least the basic human rights the rest of us can take for granted.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

macdanger2

Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

macdanger2

Quote from: Lar Naparka on September 17, 2015, 06:22:22 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 17, 2015, 11:21:54 AM
Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.
Okay, Az, as one gentleman to another, I'll attempt to enlighten you.
You know quite  few from other countries who have good jobs here and so do I. Obviously, the standard of education in some of the countries in question iis at least as good, if not better, than we have here.There's one hell of a difference although between someone coming here with a job waiting or with definite leads to where he might find one. It happens all the time.
But did any of the immigrants you mention come here without an arse to their trousers or a shirt to their back? Did some or all of them have a working command of English and were aware of the rights of workers in our society?
I know an individual who worked for one of the 3 big supermarket chains.  He was a store manager and quite happy with his pay and conditions when he received a very attractive retirement package.
This was in 2010 when the the economy had started to unravel and he was only in his late 40s and happy with his job. Anyway, he took the money and got out.
But he thought it odd that others with any decent period of service clocked up got similar offers.
He felt opt was some sort of shift in  company policy that led to the retirement offers but it didn't concern him unduly
He quickly found out that his surmise was correct but he didn't expect what that change was going to be..
He stays in contact with the management as he gets asked in from time to time to cover for someone who is absent ot to help out at busy periods and the likes.
New employees can be let go at a week's notice. They get the bare minimum wage but are forced to work extra hours without pay so effectively they get less than the minimum wage. They get 20 hours guaranteed work but the management decides where and when they work these hours. Someone could turn up for work and then be let go home after, say, two hours even though they had been told to be on call for eight.
I'm no expert on labour laws but it seems that if anyone working a twenty hours minimum week can get a social welfare top up if they work for only three days. However, if their employed hours extend into the fourth or fifth day, they won't get this top up at all.
I think it's fair to say that this company's policies are the norm elsewhere.
Now if the worker in question comes here as a refugee of any sort or happens to be a fellow-citizen down on his/her luck makes no difference to me. They are all human beings and deserve at the very least the basic human rights the rest of us can take for granted.

You seem to have gone way off on a tangent Lar!!! I fail to see how labour laws in Ireland are related to the current refugee crisis.

On your point about immigrants who cannot speak English only getting low paid jobs here - of course, they're not going to be hired as a doctor / engineer / accountant ffs, who's going to want to deal with someone who can't speak English, it's simply not practical? Once they learn to speak English, I have no doubt they would be considered for a job on their merits the same as any Irish person


foxcommander

Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

macdanger2

Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.

So you'd be happy with a refugee camp in Lebanon then?

foxcommander

Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.

So you'd be happy with a refugee camp in Lebanon then?

You failed to answer my question - what's the primary aim of heading to europe?
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

macdanger2

Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.

So you'd be happy with a refugee camp in Lebanon then?

You failed to answer my question - what's the primary aim of heading to europe?

Eh? You didn't ask a question in your previous post.

You'd be happy to simply go to a refugee camp in Lebanon??

foxcommander

Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 07:37:23 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 07:12:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 17, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 17, 2015, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:33:07 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on September 16, 2015, 10:14:19 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on September 16, 2015, 10:07:13 PM
Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.

So you'd be happy with a refugee camp in Lebanon then?

You failed to answer my question - what's the primary aim of heading to europe?

Eh? You didn't ask a question in your previous post.

You'd be happy to simply go to a refugee camp in Lebanon??
Then let me ask it again
what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
Every second of the day there's a Democrat telling a lie

muppet

Quote from: give her dixie on September 16, 2015, 11:15:41 PM
Throughout the carpet bombing of the Middle East for over 10 years now, Ireland has allowed the USA to use
Shannon airport as a stopping ground for soldiers, arms, and rendition flights to bring people to torture chambers.

I questioned a FF TD and a FF Senator as to why they allowed this to happen. Both told me it was good for the economy.

So if Ireland was willing to take the quick buck and turn a blind eye to their role in the bloodshed in the Middle East, then
they need to step forward and use that money to help the thousands of refugees that we are to take.

Our history, both recent and longer is littered with stories of mass immigration. We were world leaders at it. I was one of them.
Everywhere I went I get treated with dignity and respect, and no shortage of generosity. The tables have now turned on Ireland
and other EU countries, and we owe it to those now migrating here fleeing conflict a warm hand and a bit of understanding.
Not only do we owe it to ourselves, our ancestors, but to humanity.

When we look back at the images we are now seeing in 10 or 20 years time, what will we say to our children?

Dixie I applaud your personal efforts, but lets keep things straight. Where in the Middle East has the US been carpet bombing for the last 10 years?
MWWSI 2017