A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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smelmoth

Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on May 09, 2019, 08:59:33 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 09, 2019, 08:49:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

Good questions.

I take it to mean, how can the structures of government in the north reflect the fact that there are a million people in there who have a somewhat different view of Britain than the people of the rest of the island? I'd be all in favour of a watered down Hong Kong / Macau situation where the north is governed as a "Special Administrative Region" after partition. Instead of restoring six county councils, let Stormont take on the same responsibilities as county councils. And if Stormont were to be scrapped and the north fully integrated with the rest of the island, require a two-thirds majority in the north to approve such an arrangement.

To your point about marches, I'd prefer it if the lodges could drop the sectarianism and become some sort of benevolent organizations that work to overcome division rather than celebrate it. By all means carry a union jack and celebrate your British citizenship and your protestant values, but cut out the political lobbying and drop the anti-catholic rules from your rule book. You might stand a better chance of marching in such a way that you'd be welcome in catholic areas if you're not perceived as a hostile outside force.

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.

Well it's not the United Ireland SF are talking about but that is their fundamental dishonesty

The only UI possible is one with devolution to NI and power sharing within a devolved assembly

J70

Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

I seriously doubt it.

However, I would assume that we from the Gaelic background would have to accept a watering down of the symbols of the Republic in a united Ireland. I would think the tricolour and Amhran na bhFiann would go, as would titles like The Dail and Taoiseach and so on.

Do unionists celebrate Paddy's Day? Would they insist on the 12th being made a holiday?

BennyCake

Some do, but St Patrick's Day has been hijacked by tricolours and Celtic shirts, so its understandable why a lot of unionists don't celebrate it.

The danger is to water down so much of Irish culture and history that we turn into Switzerland.

smelmoth

Quote from: J70 on May 09, 2019, 11:31:03 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 02:51:38 PM
The buzz phrase seems to be "how unionists can be accommodated in a United ireland". What does that even mean?

Everyone will equally have access to education, healthcare, benefits, roads, etc. Everyday life will roll on. School, work, pub, walk the dog, watch telly etc. They'll do the same daily things as everyone else.

The only thing that is different about unionists from nationalists is their culture. They'll still fly their union flag and swear allegiance to Lizzie, Willy or baby Archie or whoever. They'll still want to march and light bonfires. They already play the "our culture is being eroded" card in the north under the uk. They haven't walked the Garvaghy Road in 20 years. Will part of this "accommodating unionists in a UI" thing mean they'll get to march down it again?

I seriously doubt it.

However, I would assume that we from the Gaelic background would have to accept a watering down of the symbols of the Republic in a united Ireland. I would think the tricolour and Amhran na bhFiann would go, as would titles like The Dail and Taoiseach and so on.

Do unionists celebrate Paddy's Day? Would they insist on the 12th being made a holiday?

A minority in NI "celebrate" Paddy's day as a minority celebrate the 12th. A majority enjoy a bank holiday on both. The July bank holiday would continue in NI. Hard to guess what the south would do in a UI scenario

Eamonnca1

Quote
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.
Is it? There's about 29 county-level local government entities in the south. Is the south partitioned?

Jell 0 Biafra

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 09, 2019, 06:54:19 AM
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 09, 2019, 03:05:58 AM
That would depend on how it's spoiled.

"How it's spoiled" is seldom reported, all you usually hear is a brief mention of the number of spoiled ballots. Any "message" you want to send by spoiling your ballots is unlikely to be read by anyone outside of a counting centre. It's like the kid who writes on his GCSE exam paper about how "the school is crap and my teacher's crap and it's just not fair" rather than answering any questions. He still gets an F and only one person gets to see his desperate plea.

None of this is relevant to anything.  You said that you would consider a spoiled vote a mark of incompetence.  Whether you're right in that verdict would depend on how/why that person spoiled their vote. 

Rossfan

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 10, 2019, 12:59:12 AM
Quote
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.
Is it? There's about 29 county-level local government entities in the south. Is the south partitioned?
Surely Unionists will be a minority in the "North Eastern Autonomous area" when the Independent Irish Confederation comes about.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

BennyCake

Quote from: Rossfan on May 10, 2019, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 10, 2019, 12:59:12 AM
Quote
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.
Is it? There's about 29 county-level local government entities in the south. Is the south partitioned?
Surely Unionists will be a minority in the "North Eastern Autonomous area" when the Independent Irish Confederation comes about.

I think unionists would get a hell of a lot in a United Ireland. Dublin would bend over backwards to show that unionists can still do this, that and the other. They'd be funded left and right for their cultural stuff, and they would rip the arse out of it constantly testing this new independent country on how they treat the minority. Any denial of a March or Orange funding, by this NE executive, they'd go crying to Dublin like they go crying to London now.

Rossfan

Hopefully the new Confederation's Capital will be in Athlone (or Armagh).
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

trailer

Quote from: BennyCake on May 10, 2019, 10:24:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 10, 2019, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 10, 2019, 12:59:12 AM
Quote
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.
Is it? There's about 29 county-level local government entities in the south. Is the south partitioned?
Surely Unionists will be a minority in the "North Eastern Autonomous area" when the Independent Irish Confederation comes about.

I think unionists would get a hell of a lot in a United Ireland. Dublin would bend over backwards to show that unionists can still do this, that and the other. They'd be funded left and right for their cultural stuff, and they would rip the arse out of it constantly testing this new independent country on how they treat the minority. Any denial of a March or Orange funding, by this NE executive, they'd go crying to Dublin like they go crying to London now.

I'm sure the OO in parts of Donegal already are funded by the Irish government. I imagine the battle site at the boyne received grants etc. Someone will know the full facts. No reason if this is the case that funding won't continue in a UI.
Unionism and it's traditions whether you agree or disagree with them will have to be accommodated.


smelmoth

Quote from: BennyCake on May 10, 2019, 10:24:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 10, 2019, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 10, 2019, 12:59:12 AM
Quote
Quote from: BennyCake on May 09, 2019, 11:16:02 PM

Stormont and power sharing will continue. Can't see London agreeing to anything else

That's not really a United ireland though is it? If Dublin approves say, grants for school PE gear to each family, but Stormont says no, the 6 counties will still be treated differently to the 26. That's still partition in my eyes.

The fact that any decision for people in the 6 counties has to be passed by a unionist dominated government, is no different to what we have now.
Is it? There's about 29 county-level local government entities in the south. Is the south partitioned?
Surely Unionists will be a minority in the "North Eastern Autonomous area" when the Independent Irish Confederation comes about.

I think unionists would get a hell of a lot in a United Ireland. Dublin would bend over backwards to show that unionists can still do this, that and the other. They'd be funded left and right for their cultural stuff, and they would rip the arse out of it constantly testing this new independent country on how they treat the minority. Any denial of a March or Orange funding, by this NE executive, they'd go crying to Dublin like they go crying to London now.

It's the only version of a UI on offer.

Remember when SF say GFA is a roadmap to a UI it is this version of a UI

When anybody else argues for a UI it is this that they are arguing for or they have a fundamental misunderstanding of GFA

Rossfan

Some probably think it'll be a case of the 6 Cos being incorporated into the existing 26 Co State with Tri colour and Amhrán na bhFiann.
Others seem to think it will be a State for Nationalists only and give the Unionists back what they gave from 1922-72.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

smelmoth

Quote from: Rossfan on May 10, 2019, 12:56:58 PM
Some probably think it'll be a case of the 6 Cos being incorporated into the existing 26 Co State with Tri colour and Amhrán na bhFiann.
Others seem to think it will be a State for Nationalists only and give the Unionists back what they gave from 1922-72.

There certainly are people who think that. SF encourage them to think that way and DUP are happy to watch it. It's the perfect scenario for DUP ie SF flog an unachieveable dream and some unionists believe the bogeyman version of a UI and maintain their blinkered stance

J70

There was plenty of heated, irrational and emotional debate on this very board in the mid-00s over the trivial issue of Ireland's Call at rugby matches.

general_lee

The OO is already funded left, right and centre as are the hundreds of flute bands that stomp the streets every summer. I would not want that to change in a united Ireland. What I would expect to change would be the flag and anthem, though I don't ever see there ever being any consensus there. Ulster Scots should also be looked after, in line with whatever demand there is to support it