Money, Dublin and the GAA

Started by IolarCoisCuain, October 04, 2016, 07:27:37 PM

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From the Bunker

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance, which it isn't when Dublin are involved.
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

Just fixed your selective quoting!  ;)

haranguerer

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.

Syferus

#1007
Trying to get a Dublin fan to admit to literally any inherent advantage or unfairness is like trying to perform heart surgery on a stone.

Hound

Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.
Yep, fair enough, that's an absolutely valid opinion.

It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!

No problem changing the rule next year if people agree the loss of revenues is outweighed by the "added fairness". Although I doubt Clones would have been used this year if the rule had been in place, if the GAA thought they'd get more people to Limerick or Thurles. It would not be like the GAA to turn down an extra 13,000 people paying €25 a head to move it to Munster. (Although I know there's one Mayo man who thinks all that extra money goes to either the Croke Park fat cats or the Dubs!)

macdanger2

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!


You're one of the best Dublin posters on here hound and tbf, you're one of the few dubs on here to put up a genuine argument against a significant majority. However, the point above seems to be that if other counties didn't complain about certain Dublin advantages previously, it's too late to do so now.

Say for example Mayo were forced to cede home advantage to Leitrim in every championship game, would it have much of an effect on the outcomes? And as such, it probably wouldn't bother us too much. Alternatively, say we had to always play Galway in Tuam, how would that effect results? Chances are, our reaction would be quite different.

straightred

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.
Yep, fair enough, that's an absolutely valid opinion.

It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!

No problem changing the rule next year if people agree the loss of revenues is outweighed by the "added fairness". Although I doubt Clones would have been used this year if the rule had been in place, if the GAA thought they'd get more people to Limerick or Thurles. It would not be like the GAA to turn down an extra 13,000 people paying €25 a head to move it to Munster. (Although I know there's one Mayo man who thinks all that extra money goes to either the Croke Park fat cats or the Dubs!)

Fair point about the lack of comment up to now and there's probably some truth in what your are saying that people are only complaining because of this Dublin team's dominance. For what its worth I've always thought it wrong particularly in the Leinster championship. At least in the other provinces the semi finals are moved around but not so in Leinster.

It shouldn't be all about money either. We now have effectively got 12 1/4 final matches and associated TV revenue whereas last year we had 4 (maybe 5 if we factor in a draw). That's more than enough to compensate for the 325K you identifed above (13000 *€25).

Rightly or wrongly there is a perception out there (and i think it is growing) that Dublin are afforded every advantage. Some of the conspiracy theories that you hear are out and out nonsense but equally (IMO)  some are legitimate. The practical solution is that Dublin play their "home" game in Croke park and their neutral game in Cork/Thurles/Limerick/Clones (depending on who they are playing)

Syferus

Quote from: straightred on July 05, 2018, 02:46:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.
Yep, fair enough, that's an absolutely valid opinion.

It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!

No problem changing the rule next year if people agree the loss of revenues is outweighed by the "added fairness". Although I doubt Clones would have been used this year if the rule had been in place, if the GAA thought they'd get more people to Limerick or Thurles. It would not be like the GAA to turn down an extra 13,000 people paying €25 a head to move it to Munster. (Although I know there's one Mayo man who thinks all that extra money goes to either the Croke Park fat cats or the Dubs!)

Fair point about the lack of comment up to now and there's probably some truth in what your are saying that people are only complaining because of this Dublin team's dominance. For what its worth I've always thought it wrong particularly in the Leinster championship. At least in the other provinces the semi finals are moved around but not so in Leinster.

It shouldn't be all about money either. We now have effectively got 12 1/4 final matches and associated TV revenue whereas last year we had 4 (maybe 5 if we factor in a draw). That's more than enough to compensate for the 325K you identifed above (13000 *€25).

Rightly or wrongly there is a perception out there (and i think it is growing) that Dublin are afforded every advantage. Some of the conspiracy theories that you hear are out and out nonsense but equally (IMO)  some are legitimate. The practical solution is that Dublin play their "home" game in Croke park and their neutral game in Cork/Thurles/Limerick/Clones (depending on who they are playing)

On what planet has there not been continual comment about Dublin getting to play all their games at home? You're giving him a pat on the back here when it's literally a factual lie to say there wasn't a lot of criticism for a very long time on this topic.

Hound

Quote from: macdanger2 on July 05, 2018, 02:27:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!


You're one of the best Dublin posters on here hound and tbf, you're one of the few dubs on here to put up a genuine argument against a significant majority. However, the point above seems to be that if other counties didn't complain about certain Dublin advantages previously, it's too late to do so now.

Say for example Mayo were forced to cede home advantage to Leitrim in every championship game, would it have much of an effect on the outcomes? And as such, it probably wouldn't bother us too much. Alternatively, say we had to always play Galway in Tuam, how would that effect results? Chances are, our reaction would be quite different.
Not that it's too late, but what's changed, apart from Dublin becoming good? And will the next step be to look to move semis and finals? And should revenues just be completely ignored?

My very first post in relation to the QF was Donegal should have the choice (although I think the choice given to them would have been Croke Park or Limerick/Thurles). But I do think some of the points have been OTT.

I honestly don't think Mayo are disadvantaged playing in Croke Park against Dublin in a semi or final with a 50/50 crowd (or sometimes more Mayo there!).
Likewise, I don't think Leitrim would do any better in Carrick v Mayo with a 50/50 representation than in Castlebar. (Although they wouldn't get 50% of the crowd in Castlebar, so they probably would do better in Carrick, though they still wouldnt win).

As was said earlier, if Galway had happened to have been drawn away to Sligo this year, it would have meant every single game in the Connacht championship was won by the away team. Was it not said previously that there's no significant difference in results in Mayo/Galway/Ros games regardless who has home advantage? 

But, for sure, I do believe Croke Park experience helps. Mayo would be more likely to beat Galway/Roscommon in Croke Park, than even in Castlebar. Although as their experience builds up, that advantage will be lost. I think the disadvantage only really last for a few games.

Of course people who live in Dublin have a huge advantage re attending Croke Park games than those who have to come from places like Donegal, Mayo, Kerry. Huge. But the away game for Dublin takes some of that away, the neutral game will mean expense for everyone. Maybe a coin toss would be better than neutral!

straightred

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2018, 02:49:47 PM
Quote from: straightred on July 05, 2018, 02:46:54 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.
Yep, fair enough, that's an absolutely valid opinion.

It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!

No problem changing the rule next year if people agree the loss of revenues is outweighed by the "added fairness". Although I doubt Clones would have been used this year if the rule had been in place, if the GAA thought they'd get more people to Limerick or Thurles. It would not be like the GAA to turn down an extra 13,000 people paying €25 a head to move it to Munster. (Although I know there's one Mayo man who thinks all that extra money goes to either the Croke Park fat cats or the Dubs!)

Fair point about the lack of comment up to now and there's probably some truth in what your are saying that people are only complaining because of this Dublin team's dominance. For what its worth I've always thought it wrong particularly in the Leinster championship. At least in the other provinces the semi finals are moved around but not so in Leinster.

It shouldn't be all about money either. We now have effectively got 12 1/4 final matches and associated TV revenue whereas last year we had 4 (maybe 5 if we factor in a draw). That's more than enough to compensate for the 325K you identifed above (13000 *€25).

Rightly or wrongly there is a perception out there (and i think it is growing) that Dublin are afforded every advantage. Some of the conspiracy theories that you hear are out and out nonsense but equally (IMO)  some are legitimate. The practical solution is that Dublin play their "home" game in Croke park and their neutral game in Cork/Thurles/Limerick/Clones (depending on who they are playing)

On what planet has there not been continual comment about Dublin getting to play all their games at home? You're giving him a pat on the back here when it's literally a factual lie to say there wasn't a lot of criticism for a very long time on this topic.

Why the f**k do you always have to try to derail threads. I'm trying to have a respectful debate and I don't need a clown like you in my ear. And by the way you're wrong too. There may have been comment but its gone to a new level this year

Hound

Quote from: straightred on July 05, 2018, 02:46:54 PM

Fair point about the lack of comment up to now and there's probably some truth in what your are saying that people are only complaining because of this Dublin team's dominance. For what its worth I've always thought it wrong particularly in the Leinster championship. At least in the other provinces the semi finals are moved around but not so in Leinster.

I agree. Leinster quarter-finals should be played on home/away basis, in whatever ground, including the Aughrims etc. And the Leinster Council have probably been backed into a corner now, so what happened to Wicklow this year shouldn't happen again. Kildare can hardly vote against Wicklow (or whoever it ends up being) next year. With both Kildare and Meath unseeded next year, it's almost destined to be one of them v the Dubs in the quarters!

The semi-finals should be Portlaoise or Nowlan Park, so that everyone earns the right to play in Croke Park in a Leinster final.

I think if that was brought in, it would also ease the "be seen to be fair" element of Dublin not playing every game in Croker.

Rossfan

"Literally a factual lie"
New low in Syferianisms.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

straightred

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:52:12 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 05, 2018, 02:27:18 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!


You're one of the best Dublin posters on here hound and tbf, you're one of the few dubs on here to put up a genuine argument against a significant majority. However, the point above seems to be that if other counties didn't complain about certain Dublin advantages previously, it's too late to do so now.

Say for example Mayo were forced to cede home advantage to Leitrim in every championship game, would it have much of an effect on the outcomes? And as such, it probably wouldn't bother us too much. Alternatively, say we had to always play Galway in Tuam, how would that effect results? Chances are, our reaction would be quite different.
Not that it's too late, but what's changed, apart from Dublin becoming good? And will the next step be to look to move semis and finals? And should revenues just be completely ignored?

My very first post in relation to the QF was Donegal should have the choice (although I think the choice given to them would have been Croke Park or Limerick/Thurles). But I do think some of the points have been OTT.

I honestly don't think Mayo are disadvantaged playing in Croke Park against Dublin in a semi or final with a 50/50 crowd (or sometimes more Mayo there!).
Likewise, I don't think Leitrim would do any better in Carrick v Mayo with a 50/50 representation than in Castlebar. (Although they wouldn't get 50% of the crowd in Castlebar, so they probably would do better in Carrick, though they still wouldnt win).

As was said earlier, if Galway had happened to have been drawn away to Sligo this year, it would have meant every single game in the Connacht championship was won by the away team. Was it not said previously that there's no significant difference in results in Mayo/Galway/Ros games regardless who has home advantage? 

But, for sure, I do believe Croke Park experience helps. Mayo would be more likely to beat Galway/Roscommon in Croke Park, than even in Castlebar. Although as their experience builds up, that advantage will be lost. I think the disadvantage only really last for a few games.

Of course people who live in Dublin have a huge advantage re attending Croke Park games than those who have to come from places like Donegal, Mayo, Kerry. Huge. But the away game for Dublin takes some of that away, the neutral game will mean expense for everyone. Maybe a coin toss would be better than neutral!

It only takes 1/2 of it away. Donegal have been completely shafted. a 7pm throw-in in Dublin and a trip to Rosscommon or Armagh.

In terms of the match itself I don't know what home advantage is worth on the scoreboard but i'd guess 2 or 3 points. That's enough to matter.

Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on July 05, 2018, 03:02:45 PM
"Literally a factual lie"
New low in Syferianisms.

???

Not your finest moment.

smelmoth

#1018
We need to think outside the box here.

Dublin have an inherent advantage here in that they have more players and punters than anybody else. This needs to be neutralised. They way to do this (it came to me in a dream behind the off-licence over lunchtime) is to allocate every child in the 32 counties a county at birth. This will act like the US draft system with counties allocated on rotation i.e only every 32nd child will be a jackeen. No allowance will be made for where the child is born, lives, where the parents (if known) are from or indeed the child's own wishes or the location of their club. Its tough but it has to be done. Tony Scullion will do a video presentation for slow learners.

I already know how brilliant an idea this is. Its actually quite emotional typing it.

An equal spread of the talent. An equal spread of fans (although most will still live in Dublin and I accept it is an awful trek from Skibbereen to Abhainn Beag for one son, especially when the second son wants to go to Drogheda for the big Louth v Clare Derby). Fill up the tank in Louth is the answer to that problem. You have to go there to see how cheap it actually is.  I bought a second car with the money I've saved. Comes in handy as well as the first car is giving wild engine trouble.

Further brilliance arrives in the form of the northern protestant population being equally divided amongst the 32 counties. No opt out of the allocation is allowed although they are allowed to individually opt out of playing the sport (I'm not arguing for fascism here). Kilkenny will probably be allocated a load of northern prods and still not be able to field. My own county, Armagh will benefit hugely from this.

Yet more brilliance arrives in the form of the nippy, skillfull inside forwards produced by the Kerry school system would also be equally divided amongst the 32 counties. These guys will be lauded as gods In the glens of Antrim or swamps of Leitrim. Some form of translation service may be required for local media. My own county, Armagh will benefit hugely from this if we can keep these Kerry born gods away from the lure of coffee or local soccer.

There is a brief window of every child born in Dublin. It comes after they learn to speak but before they sound Bernard Dunne or Dustin the Turkey with every sentence starting with the word "look". During this window of intelligible speech the child could take a verbal oath of allegiance to their allocated county.

This might sound extreme but it's a better option than any option that does not directly address the fact that Dublin have more players and paying punters than any other county. #splitdublinin32

haranguerer

Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 02:10:53 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Hound on July 05, 2018, 01:39:25 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 05, 2018, 12:26:06 PM
Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance
Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.

I don't doubt that they were deliberate in stating Croke Park. But I think for too long they have ignored the advantage it provides to Dublin, and I think it is a great development that they are now being held to account, and having to consider that advantage.
Yep, fair enough, that's an absolutely valid opinion.

It has been in Dublin for a hundred years, but we've only copped it's an advantage now that the best Dublin team ever is here!

Dubs have gone through phases before in the 70s, 80s, 90s of playing league games in Croker, but that added advantage didn't seem to be recognised then.

Ever since the back door has been introduced, the Leinster champions (which, as you know, has mainly been Dublin) has played ALL their quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals in Croke Park. As I've said it is interesting that now with one such game actually moved out of Croke Park, it's now the Croke Park "advantage" has come to fore!

No problem changing the rule next year if people agree the loss of revenues is outweighed by the "added fairness". Although I doubt Clones would have been used this year if the rule had been in place, if the GAA thought they'd get more people to Limerick or Thurles. It would not be like the GAA to turn down an extra 13,000 people paying €25 a head to move it to Munster. (Although I know there's one Mayo man who thinks all that extra money goes to either the Croke Park fat cats or the Dubs!)

Its been there for 100 years, but the game has changed immeasurably in the 17 since the back door came in. Firstly, many more counties got the chance to play in Croke Park (so the novelty wore off), and secondly, it has become ever more professional in every aspect, so advantages are sought everywhere. With the timing such that there haven't been that many occasions to really scrutinise it (Dublin straight into quarters most years as you say, which are usually [always?] dbl headers in croker), the Super 8's was always going to be the opportunity to challenge it.

Re the revenue - you can't put revenue above the competition itself. Theres also I would think an argument that putting games in grounds which will fill out makes them much better occasions, and making tickets harder to get increases season ticket buying and the like, but principally you have to run your competition on a fair basis, not to make as much as you can.