Shankill Bombing

[red hander]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?

[omaghjoe]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?

Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British

[red hander]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?

Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British

Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?

[omaghjoe]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?

Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British

Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?

Maybe....who knows...most Irish men didnt sit on their hands they went to fight for that Empire instead of fighting it

Not sure on your stats BTW could you give me a quick break down?

[trailer]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.

The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.

I'd disagree with that. I don't think the IRA achieved anything that wasn't already achieved through peaceful means. The IRA campaign wasn't about citizens rights or equality, although SF now would tell you it was. It was about uniting Ireland and Brits out. Both aims they failed to achieve.

In my view, rightly or wrongly) Ireland would have gained full Independence had it not have been for the violence of Collins and the IRA. Partition was a poor deal, done at a bad time in turbulent circumstances. It resulted in a Unionist status quo that hasn't been broken yet and helped to entrench views on both sides of the divide in NI.

[Therealdonald]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

I think this is where the difference of opinion comes in. Personally I don't see how we'd be where we are today without the IRA.SF role.Whilst you may not agree with the methods, they were effective. We are the closest we've been in years to a UI, our children are being educated at a higher rate than ever before, and we have a genuine 50/50 role in society. Without the IRA this couldn't have happened.

The Shankill bomb was an awful awful tragedy and mistake, but the intended aim of it was not. It was just a massive clusterfk, be it tampering or whatever.

I'd disagree with that. I don't think the IRA achieved anything that wasn't already achieved through peaceful means. The IRA campaign wasn't about citizens rights or equality, although SF now would tell you it was. It was about uniting Ireland and Brits out. Both aims they failed to achieve.

In my view, rightly or wrongly) Ireland would have gained full Independence had it not have been for the violence of Collins and the IRA. Partition was a poor deal, done at a bad time in turbulent circumstances. It resulted in a Unionist status quo that hasn't been broken yet and helped to entrench views on both sides of the divide in NI.

Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.

[An Watcher]

Ballocks

[red hander]

I genuinely don't know where to start with this latest bile. You believe that the IRA sat bloodthirsty waiting on an opportunity to murder and terrorise their communities?

All thousands of them? I take it you'd apply that same logic to Mr Michael Collins and his 12 apostles, to Tom Barry and his flying columns or to Dan Breen in Tipperary?

Or maybe these were ordinary people upon whom an extraordinary life was thrusted? When British Paratroopers kill 14 people in Derry and commit atrocities in Ballymurphy, do you not think for a second that these type of conditions might create resistance and people wishing to fight those inflicting that pain and injustice? Or maybe these people were born bloodthirsty? When you say the IRA 'enriched' themselves of terrorised their communities, are you speaking from experience? Where do you live? Because that's not the communities that I know and that I have lived in all my life. Maybe you have been reading Ruth Dudley Edwards a bit too much from some ivory Tower. I don't know the answer to that.

But again, not one mention from you about the British... Strange that.

I literally finished my post talking about the British. I don't think getting into "look what themmuns did" is a very grown up way to conduct your argument. Let's just say we have very different views on the role of the IRA. But this narrative of they were pushed into violence by the evil British is very simplified. Republicans and Nationalists had a choice. Some or "thousands" as you put it (not verified) chose violence. I think those that didn't chose violence, did more for Ireland that anyone who shot some innocent person going about his days work or blew up a child out doing some shopping.

What do you think of the IRA of Collins, Brugha and Mulcahy? Were they wrong to kill for Ireland and win freedom for 26 of its 32 counties by carrying out acts of violence, or is it just the Provisionals and thieir methods you have a problem with?

Perhaps if they resorted to peaceful methods then there would have been independence without partition like in most of the territories controlled by the British

Maybe. Bit simplistic, though, considering the British Empire over its lifetime was responsible for vastly more murder than Hitler and Stalin combined. Bit hard to sit on your hands when all that's going on, would you not agree?

Maybe....who knows...most Irish men didnt sit on their hands they went to fight for that Empire instead of fighting it

Not sure on your stats BTW could you give me a quick break down?

Give this a read:

http://worldsworstmassmurderer.blogspot.com/

[randomusername]

Trailer you seem like an intelligent person, warped but intelligent none the less. WOuld it be fair to say that the IRA came out of Bloody Sunday with a renewed purpose and support? So peaceful protests and walks end up with regular human beings being shot? So if you can't protest, you can't vote fairly, you can't rent a house, what exactly was your solution? Walk with cap in hand to Westminster and ask politely for the above? You would have been laughed home. It is, was and always will be the only solution to the situation at the time.

He'd rather sit in his Ivory tower and cast judgement on Irish men and women who fought just like the Irish men and women before them. His refusal to say where he is from can only be translated to an admission that he certainly isn't from the North and didn't suffer under British occupation but will cast judgement on those from afar. He believes the IRA were the cause and that those in it got out of bed to blow babies up. Amadan

The IRA wasn't the cause but I personally don't know how someone can kill another human being in good conscience. The state was a mess but people are people. Squaddies for example, what was the point in killing them? Young lads from England or Wales or whatever who didn't know better. Just seemed utterly pointless.

[cadhlancian]

Thanks for your second contribution to the thread.  Just as analytical and thought through as your first one.  Imbecile

+1

[seafoid]

If you look at the statistics of deaths a lot of either civilians or paramilitaries died when bombs went off at the wrong time, as in Shankill. In the Miami Showband case the 2 UVF thugs who put a bomb in the band's bus were decapitated because of shoddy work. Nothing to do with securing the Union or
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori

When  a few civilians died due to what was basically incompetence it changed the dynamics from a targeting of other paramilitaries (which was grand) to an attack on
the whole community (which was not).

The gravitas of dying for Ireland or the Union as a paramilitary ignores the technical incompetence angle.

[Applesisapples]

Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.

[MoChara]

The vacuum created in the 60's which the IRA stepped into was by no means blatant opportunism or orchestration by the ra, as a lot of people seem to love to bring up in the late 60's the IRA was woefully under-equipped and was lamented for being short for I Ran Away due to their inability to defend their own people, does that not indicate people were feeling vulnerable and had a belief a physical force aspect of their own was required for their own protection and survival, so they took the next step.

This was eventually filled by the IRA but their membership didn't come out of thin air but from the normal people on the streets that had had enough, or perhaps less so had an ideological drive for something else. For some reason people think the IRA are just waiting in the wings, like they are some external force operating outside of everyday life or community, where as really they were just the ordinary people take extra ordinary measures. I do believe if it wasn't for the situation here the vast majority of IRA members would never have seen the inside of a jail cell in their lives.

Shankill bombing was a disaster, and regrettable in what happened, if it had gone to plan and wiped out the UFF leadership I'd have had no problem with it, in 93 alone the UFF claimed shooting dead 19 Catholic civilians.

[JoG2]

Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.

No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims

[Applesisapples]

Begley's family holding a 25th Memorial. Why do the Shinners insist in attending these events, time to let them go.

No they are not, the Begley family said they have nothing to do with it, won't be going to it, but will be attending mass instead to pray for their son and the victims

Shinners quoted by Naomi Long on twitter as saying they are and that they will attend. either way my comment re SF and memorials still stands.