Author Topic: Water Charges. How much?  (Read 16399 times)

NetNitrate

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2014, 01:34:45 PM »
$3,000 a year is relatively inexpensive property tax in US. I live in New York and my property tax is $9,000 per year on a property that would be 250k Euros in Ireland. Water is additional on top of that at about $50 a month or $580 a year. The entitlement mentality in Ireland fueled by the Mary Lou's and left of the world don't know how lucky they have it. And I say that as someone who is left wing in politics.

AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2014, 01:45:22 PM »
Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

magpie seanie

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2014, 02:03:29 PM »
Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.


Exactly.

NetNitrate

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2014, 02:08:07 PM »
Federal income tax in US if you earn between $89k and 186k is 28%. State income tax on top of that is 12%. That's 40% already in taxes before you have to fork out your 9k on property taxes and your $500 in water, not to mention another few grand on social security.

Those looking for free water in Ireland would not last 5 minutes if they had to emigrate and make a living in the US.

AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2014, 02:14:40 PM »
Lads I lived over there. You get a lot more disposable income left in your salary after taxes than you do in Ireland. Don't be patronising, some of us have lived over there, and paid taxes over there for several years. I'd take the US tax system in a heartbeat.

gerrykeegan

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2014, 02:38:12 PM »
Lads, we already pay 41% in income tax, and another tax in PRSI and another tax in USC. The problem I have is not that we have to pay for water, per se. It's that we ALREADY pay more in these taxes than most other countries. I lived in the USA as well, and while you paid for this, you had a much lower rate of income tax.

We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.


Exactly.

Lads the country is broke, we are beginning to balance the books that is all. We are still paying more out than in (a large amount of that is interest) Think of it as a big cake. It has several ingredients Income tax/USC/PRSI/Water tax/property tax/VAT. All the cake (and some) has to be paid out. Currently we don't have enough ingredients for the cake. You are not been charged twice. If and when we ever get out of debt and we have more ingredients than we need then we will see reductions in tax. I think the US model is different in that the world will keep lending money to it (it's also broke) because if it fails the Sh1t hits the fan.
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armaghniac

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2014, 03:01:40 PM »
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2014, 03:07:43 PM »
gerry. We are not 'technically' being charged twice because there is nothing that specifically says x amount of your PAYE is going to water. However, Water has always been a public service, which is paid for with taxes.

What they are doing now is creating a new tax, for water, while still retaining the other taxes to pay for other stuff, like the bail out. That's my problem with it. In the past 10 years we've had the USC, the Property Tax and now the Water Tax. We already pay income tax, which is supposed to pay for services, in theory at least, PRSI, VAT and Motor Tax (which is supposed to go to road infrastructure). We pay a TV license which is another tax to supplement a different service again.

It seems to be like this, and I accept this is very simplistic.

Gov: Right Johnny, we're going to give you a job, but you're going to have to give a percentage of your salary so that we can keep the country running ok?

Johnny: Ah right. OK, well I suppose that's fair enough. Sure if we all club together we should be able to have things ticking along. How much.

Gov: Well, we'll let you keep the first 20 quid you earn in every 100, and then after that we'll take 41% ok? Lets say you make 100 euro, you'll give us 33 ok?

Johnny : OK, fair enough. That leaves me with 67 and keeps the country running. I like the idea of that.

Gov : Exactly. Now, there is the matter of PRSI. This is just a little amount we take off you to help pay Social welfare and the like, you know just to keep things ticking over. Lets say just 4 of your 100?

Johnny : Another 4? OK. I'd have thought social welfare was part of keeping the country running, but maybe not. OK, we'll say 4. Sure that still gives me 63 out of my 100. Fair enough.

Gov : Exactly. See how it works. You keep the country running for that 37. Now of course it doesn't cover the Universal Social Charge.

J: What's that?

Gov : Ah well, it's this sort of charge that everyone who earns has to pay to help keep the country running.

J: What? Like PAYE and PRSI?

Gov : Oh no, not like them at all. Well, kind of like them. A bit. Anyway, never mind. It's only another say 5 of your 100.

J : OK, so that brings me down to 58 out of my 100. getting saucy now, but sure I suppose it's all being used wisely, and at least it provides for services.

Gov : Heh heh, good one. Ah yeah, it does though. Provides all those public services you need to keep a country going.

J: Great, ok so sure thanks a million. Good luck.

Gov : Eh actually, there's a wee bit more. Hang tough there for a second.

J: Wha?

Gov: Well, there's VAT.

J: What is that?

Gov: It's called Value Added, erm.... eh Tax.

J: Another tax? For what

Gov & J: To keep the country going.

J: OK, ok ok. what is it.

Gov: well this is a bit harder to quantify for you, but lets just say that nearly everything you buy includes a contribution to the state of 13.5% of it's price.

J: Wow. Ok. So if I spend 10 if my poor 58 that's left, 1.35 is going to the government?

Gov : Yep. To keep the country running. It's only fair really. Sure you don't *have* to buy 'stuff'. Like electricity or heating.

J : Hmm.

Gov : OK. And there's a just a couple of others. Water. Property. Vehicle. TV Licence.

J : What????

Gov. : Well yes, these services don't pay for themselves you know. Water costs money. Having your house sitting there in a county costs money. Roads cost money. Ryan Tubridy Costs money. It's not going to pay for itself you ingrate.

J : But Jaysus, what about the 41% tax, or the PRSI, or the USC or the VAT? I thought they were to keep the country running? And I have to pay to get my bin collected by a private company!

Gov : No no no, they're completely different, and any eejit can see you need to pay to get water, a road to drive on and Ryan Tubridy on your telly. I'm not sure what the property tax is for now to be honest.

J : Jaysus. It's a bit steep. But sure I suppose it's to keep the country running.

Gov : Good man.

J : Is that everything?

Gov : Yes. For now. Can't think of anything else, but come here, how much air do you think you breathe every day? Never mind.

J : What will I do with my 2 or 3 cent left over?

Gov : Put it in a bank. To keep the country running.




AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2014, 03:09:20 PM »
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

armaghniac

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2014, 03:13:07 PM »
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Billys Boots

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2014, 03:13:48 PM »
If we don't treat water provision as a service, how will we (or the clowns who are supposed to be running it) ever know what it costs to supply and maintain?  Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.
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armaghniac

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2014, 03:21:35 PM »
Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

He'd probably puck them away.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

foxcommander

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2014, 03:22:53 PM »
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

TD pensions for a start.
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AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2014, 03:26:32 PM »
We're getting done coming and going. The chestnut of saying we should be paying for water is ignoring the fact that we supposedly already ARE via the existing taxes. If they want to reduce our income tax, and then tax things like Property, Water or whatever based on usage, then fair enough. But its a ballix to pay twice for something.

As gerrykeegan said in the previous post taxes do not cover government expenditure, so you are not paying for everything. Now you can take an idealogical perspective and say that other taxes should be increased rather than charging for water, but alleging that you are paying twice makes no sense.

I explained my take on this above. It's fine to say we never paid for water until now, but I take that we are and do pay for it via PAYE and other taxes. If they need this money to pay for Water now, in addition to what we have already paid to cover the public cost of water, then in effect we are paying for it twice.

Well then, since there is a deficit which piece of expenditure do you wished removed so that your water can be paid for?

I would like to see efficiencies brought into the public sector which would see the high taxes we already pay used properly. It's unbelieveable really. We keep giving the government money, they keep f**king it away, and they keep coming back to us to give them more under a different guise. I realise I'm only bitching, and I do see the merit in paying for services, but I hate to see wastage, and that's what we are seeing all over the place.

AZOffaly

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Re: Water Charges. How much?
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2014, 03:29:02 PM »
If we don't treat water provision as a service, how will we (or the clowns who are supposed to be running it) ever know what it costs to supply and maintain?  Jack Lynch should be shot with balls of his own shite, in fairness.

No problem with that. But just because I give you a tenner doesn't mean you can't tell me you spent 6 on food and 4 on newspapers. I would have thought the department of the environment, or finance, would be able to say exactly how much it costs to supply and maintain the water supply. I shouldn't have to give you another 2 in a different envelope to buy a doughnut because you can't figure out if you spent it as part of the 10 or not.