prods in the 26

[Milltown Row2]

So your train of thought is simple

Clarity is often simple. If there is no Northern Ireland then there is no need to vote for parties to abolish it and other issues would come to the fore.

why wouldn't unionist take up the fight for freedom if this comes about,

Why should they? They would be living in a normal democratic country the same as everywhere else, without injustice to warrant "fighting". One of the most disgusting aspects of the sick counties is this pseudo equivalence between the cause of one side and the other.

Has anyone in the North, catholic or protestant, got an awful lot in common with anyone in the South culturally

I don't see the people in Cullaville are much different from those in 'Blayney.

So you won't see that problem arising? We have been living in a normal democratic country for a while, we still have bombers and shooters

[armaghniac]

Quote from: lawnseed on December 21, 2013, 06:19:19 PM

    Maybe not quite as irish as their catholic countrymen?


A little bit.

Protestants in the 26 counties are a diverse lot, some as Anglo as some of the posters here, others would see no more connection with England than than rest of us.

So you won't see that problem arising? We have been living in a normal democratic country for a while, we still have bombers and shooters

Only a very particular and perverse definition would regard the 6 counties as a normal democratic society and it is clearly not a country. However, despite the fact that it remains a colony, the mitigating arrangements in place have greatly reduced the bombing and shooting from the Nationalist side.

[deiseach]

Why should they? They would be living in a normal democratic country the same as everywhere else, without injustice to warrant "fighting". One of the most disgusting aspects of the sick counties is this pseudo equivalence between the cause of one side and the other.

You're right about the false equivalence. As Joe Lee has pointed out, the greatest betrayal in the history of Irish politics was the abandoning of the Protestants of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan to the state that Unionism hysterically insisted was a death sentence for all Protestants. I wonder how many of them signed the Covenant only to find the principle of Protestant liberty sacrificed on the need to create a herrenvolk democracy. I was fascinated to find out around the time of the documentary Seven Ages that one of the principal contributors, RB McDowell, firmly believed that there was no such thing as an Irish identity independent of British identity. If you think about it too hard, it's an astonishingly insulting position to take. Yet not only was McDowell tolerated, he prospered in the land to which he felt no affinity. It should be a source of some pride to all Nationalists that there is no trace of an irridentist movement south of the border.

However, I think that it is a bit too simplistic to say Unionists would meekly accept the absence of Northern Ireland. Putting aside the fact that the rhetoric that led to the creation of Northern Ireland still lingers, why would a people who view themselves as British (perfectly reasonably, despite what Ali G might say) stop viewing themselves as British? It's not just because of the injustices of the statelet that hundreds of thousands of people north of the border refused to give it their allegiance. It's not hard to imagine a situation where Irish Catholics could be accepted as part of the polity, and accept its legitimacy. You only have to look at the island of Britain to see that. It is very hard though to see how a people who have a tradition and an infrastructure to cling on to could be integrated so easily.

[armaghniac]

why would a people who view themselves as British (perfectly reasonably, despite what Ali G might say) stop viewing themselves as British

I'm not sure about the reasonable bit, but the issue is not what you regard yourself as, but whether you accept that you have chosen to live in Ireland and not there and that has implications for your conduct.

[deiseach]

why would a people who view themselves as British (perfectly reasonably, despite what Ali G might say) stop viewing themselves as British

I'm not sure about the reasonable bit, but the issue is not what you regard yourself as, but whether you accept that you have chosen to live in Ireland and not there and that has implications for your conduct.

Well, it is reasonable. Think of it this way. Imagine you were put up for adoption at birth and were raised by a family of Bible-bashing Presbyterians. There's no way you'd view yourself as anything other than British.

*awaits revelation that armaghniac was raised by a family of Bible-bashing Presbyterians*

[Milltown Row2]

Quote from: lawnseed on December 21, 2013, 06:19:19 PM

    Maybe not quite as irish as their catholic countrymen?


A little bit.

Protestants in the 26 counties are a diverse lot, some as Anglo as some of the posters here, others would see no more connection with England than than rest of us.

So you won't see that problem arising? We have been living in a normal democratic country for a while, we still have bombers and shooters

Only a very particular and perverse definition would regard the 6 counties as a normal democratic society and it is clearly not a country. However, despite the fact that it remains a colony, the mitigating arrangements in place have greatly reduced the bombing and shooting from the Nationalist side.

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 


Look it is what it is, you've by living in it and accepted what it is, country, colony, occupied six or otherwise you'd have left long ago.

While reduced there is still people getting blown up, shot, killed in a 'war' for freedom. Do you not think this would be replicated if people who have lived in a country (in their eyes) had it taken away from them? you'd be very foolish to think there won't be elements within that community who'll not take up arms.

deiseach it's called an accident of birth, had he been born elsewhere he'd have a different view

[deiseach]

deiseach it's called an accident of birth, had he been born elsewhere he'd have a different view

Yep. We'll be able to ask the original questions of my son as soon as he is old enough to think for himself. I might not like what I hear

[Milltown Row2]

deiseach it's called an accident of birth, had he been born elsewhere he'd have a different view

Yep. We'll be able to ask the original questions of my son as soon as he is old enough to think for himself. I might not like what I hear

My girls aren't christened so won't know what they are, they should be able to make decisions based on their own views and how they see it without being brainwashed into it by parents who'll push their own ideals on them

[deiseach]

My girls aren't christened so won't know what they are, they should be able to make decisions based on their own views and how they see it without being brainwashed into it by parents who'll push their own ideals on them

Whether they're raised in a faith or not, will they still not receive their 'ideals' from their parents?

[Milltown Row2]

My girls aren't christened so won't know what they are, they should be able to make decisions based on their own views and how they see it without being brainwashed into it by parents who'll push their own ideals on them

Whether they're raised in a faith or not, will they still not receive their 'ideals' from their parents?

Ya think? If kids have been brought up during shootings, bombings, or their family was involved and interned be very difficult to not either to not have a strong view on it or be involved, as was the case for a lot of families growing up in West Belfast during the 70's

It was romanticised in songs, films and stories in all households, we'd have listend and for a small period of my life I'd have took it all in, that was before I was able to get a better grasp on things and view it differently, thes were ideals, granted not all parents would have

[armaghniac]

Look it is what it is, you've by living in it and accepted what it is, country, colony, occupied six or otherwise you'd have left long ago.

So you cannot propose change in NI, if you don't like you should just leave? That sounds familiar.

Do you not think this would be replicated if people who have lived in a country (in their eyes) had it taken away from them? you'd be very foolish to think there won't be elements within that community who'll not take up arms.

There are always evil people, but they are more likely to do this if people pander to their supposed "cause".

[lawnseed]

prods in the 26 lads this is turning nordie as I knew it would

[armaghniac]

prods in the 26 lads this is turning nordie as I knew it would

Some of us don't believe in partition of threads 

But if you really want, Bono is a pain sometimes, but Katie Taylor seems a dacent woman, although you wouldn't want to pick a fight with her.

[deiseach]

Ya think? If kids have been brought up during shootings, bombings, or their family was involved and interned be very difficult to not either to not have a strong view on it or be involved, as was the case for a lot of families growing up in West Belfast during the 70's

It was romanticised in songs, films and stories in all households, we'd have listend and for a small period of my life I'd have took it all in, that was before I was able to get a better grasp on things and view it differently, thes were ideals, granted not all parents would have

Yes, I think. Who has more influence on your formative years than your parents? NB ideals ≠ ideal.

[deiseach]

But if you really want, Bono is a pain sometimes, but Katie Taylor seems a dacent woman, although you wouldn't want to pick a fight with her.

Thank you, Jack Boothman. We couldn't have whatabouteried with the OWCer's for all those years without you.