Shankill Butchers program 28-03-11

[Denn Forever]

Anyone know if the BBC archives these documentaries

They can be watched on the BBC iplayer on their website.  If you are not in the right area, some posters made suggestions on how you can watch it

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=18833.0

Hope it works for you.

[orangeman]

Jesus but that was horrific television.

[ziggysego]

Surprised to learn that one of the former Big Brother psychologists was in a gang with one of the Shankill Butchers.
Nolan is covering himself well, unlike his suit.

Aye--what was this gang they were talking about? Was it just a kids gang or a UVF gang he was involved in. Was a bit random including him in the show for only 30seconds with no real explanation.

GEOFFREY BEATTIE was born and reared in the lower part of Ligoniel in North Belfast. He passed his Eleven Plus and was educated in Belfast Royal Academy and Trinity college, Cambridge. He is now what could be called a Guardian liberal. His book records his return to his home after 18 years' absence in England.
Here we are forced to endure his patronising repetitions of things said to him by taxi drivers, his mother and other innocents. He announces his shock at Bucky the driver's pronunciation of the expletive 'bollocks' as 'baaaaalicks' "they made that 'a' sound last forever." The same taxi driver said "My morrrrr says I smile like John Wayne." which to Beattie sounded "so harsh, so unloving". Presumably Bucky would also talk of his 'brorrrrr' and 'one thing or the orrrrr'. The accent may be harsh to Beattie's tenderised ears, but to attribute is to absence of love is sheer prejudice. Later on Beattie reports "I could see my morrrrr as I got out of the taxi." This isn't the worst of it. He carries on like this throughout the book.
1 also wondered about the authenticity of some of Beattie's recorded conversations. His mother's friend Ginger, complaining that England's full of perverts sounded just like the Uncle Andy character in Graham Reid's Billy trilogy. The story of his Jewish schoolpal being challenged as to whether he was a 'Protestant Jew' or a 'Catholic Jew' has been an apocryphal Ulster story for decades.
'Patronising' is an inadequate description of Beattie. He approaches folk in drinking clubs and interrogates them about the UDA and UVF, drug-dealing Chinese restaurateurs, who's involved in paramilitary protection rackets etc. and seems puzzled when he receives evasive or less than full answers. Occasionally there are some genuine insights, such as when he sets out the views of Jack McKee, the local Elim Pentecostal pastor, businessman Tom Pierce, the "king of ladies' tights" and a doctor who had worked in the casualty department of the Royal Victoria Hospital. He is at his best when he lets people speak for themselves but he can't leave it at that. For example, he says that he always wondered whether boils on the neck came before or after a religious conversion. He looked closely at Pastor McKee's neck to see if he had the regulation boils. He hadn't. Beattie always has to inject his own smart-arsed remarks somewhere. Ginger, mentioned above, summed him up to his mother:
" 'That son of yours makes things up, to make himself seem better than the rest of us. He's a snob all right.'  'Now, be fair, Ginger. He's not a real stuck-up ssssnob.' 'He is.' " Ginger had a point. When Beattie's mother, "dressed in her bargain clothes nylon everywhere - slack and top - and her hair teased up into a Gina Lollobrigida style circa 1962..."; and uncle came to visit him in Cambridge, he wanted to "keep them out of sight and keep them sober." He was ashamed when he was spotted with them by his tutor. He wouldn't introduce them.

This is a story of local boy makes good and comes back to sneer and show pity and contempt for the miserable natives he had left behind. He still has some sense of identification with Ulster Protestants and some genuine regrets for old friends who died or were imprisoned in the course of the troubles. But he has been away too long. He notices things and puts a meaning on them that no-one else would even think of and he makes sweeping generalisations from trivialities. Up the Falls Road, "The men had moustaches. They don't up our way." Oh really? The old mythology was that Catholics' eyes were too close together. No-one seems to have thought of the 'moustache test' of religious identity before! Has anyone told the FEC? At a service in Ian Paisley's Martyrs' Memorial Church he felt hot as Paisley preached on hell but puts it down to his attracting attention as he was trying to take notes during the service. Anyone who has ever attended any Free Presbyterian service would notice that many people take notes during the sermons. Beattie's own guilt and near paranoia seem to have gotten the better of him.
One of the best bits is the poignant story of Elizabeth, a pensioner whose old house with its backyard toilet was demolished. She was so proud of the bathroom in her new house. This story is typical of many working class people of all religions in Belfast in recent years.
I was less sure of his introduction of the story of the notorious Shankill Butcher gang. He introduced this on the pretext that a taxi driver had a copy of Martin Dillon's book in his glove compartment. Yet, Beattie met none of the gang and the whole chapter dealing with them seemed to have been bolted on to fill a few pages. The chapter itself was an inadequate summary of Dillon's own book.

It isn't often that I read a book through which irritates and annoys me as much as We Are The People. If you are wanting an insight into the heart of Protestant Ulster you will be disappointed if you look in here. There are books which do give an empathetic impression of Belfast and Ulster Protestants. I recommend the late Sally Belfrage's The Crack- a Belfast Year, Steve Bruce's The Red Hand and his new book At the Edge of the Union and Sarah Nelson's Ulster's Uncertain Defenders. Don't waste your money on this superficial nonsense. Far better books than this have been remaindered for fifty pence!

http://www.ulsternation.org.uk/we_are_the_people__geoffrey_beat.htm

[Oraisteach]

Thanks, denn, I'll give it a go.  do you know the name of the documentary/series

[AFS]

Thanks, denn, I'll give it a go.  do you know the name of the documentary/series

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00zx9x2/Shankill_Butchers/

[Oraisteach]

Thanks, AFS but it's "Not available in [my] area."

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Jesus the whataboutry on the Nolan show atm is disgusting! 

[Denn Forever]

Thanks, AFS but it's "Not available in [my] area."

Have you tried these?

I was wondering if there was anyway to watch it when you are not in the jurisdiction?  Was watching Hibernian Folk at the BBC Friday night and Sharon Shannon was on it.  She was playing a jig but I heard it from the other room and missed what it was called.  Anyone see it and do you know the name?

Great show.

Try this here     http://www.identitycloaker.com/

I am in the states and my cousin in the north told me he knows someone in France who uses this for Ireland Only region braodcasts online. I will start using this at the weekend and see if it works.

I have been using this site this last year or so to access BBC player, RTE player. Costs me $10 a month, but during the summer its well worth it for championship games on RTE and TV3 players. https://www.overplay.net/
It was actually someone on here who gave me the site last year and it has never gave me any problems.

[Franko]

Have met May Blood several times, she's generally a good sort.  I understand the reaction of the people of the Shankill Rd.  The Butchers murders had nothing to do with politics, national identity or even religion...these guys were just psychopaths.
After a shaky start I thought Nolan get a good job of his questioning of Jimmy Nesbitt (didn't ask him about Cold Feet though).  I thought the frame at the end informing us that Nesbiltt had received an OBE/MBE was well done.  What was that for? Not investigating the murders?  Speaking as someone who lived in North Belfast at the time it was almost more scary looking back at it 35 years later than living through it at the time.

We know that Murphy, Bates and Moore are all dead but what happened to Fat Sam McAllister??

There's no doubting that they were psychopaths.  However, the part in bold is just not correct.  When they murdered a protestant there was generally another motive (feud/bar squabbles/informers). On the other hand, the sole motive for the murder of almost all their Catholic victims was religion/sectarianism.

[ziggysego]

The Butchers murders had nothing to do with politics, national identity or even religion...these guys were just psychopaths.

Why was it always Taigs then?

Of the 19 murders attributed to the gang 10 were Catholics and 9 Protestants.

It clearly said on the programme, that many of the protestant killed were mismaken to being 'taigs' or caught up in explosion. The rest, I'd imagine, was Loyalist feuding.

[Banana Man]

Have met May Blood several times, she's generally a good sort.  I understand the reaction of the people of the Shankill Rd.  The Butchers murders had nothing to do with politics, national identity or even religion...these guys were just psychopaths.
After a shaky start I thought Nolan get a good job of his questioning of Jimmy Nesbitt (didn't ask him about Cold Feet though).  I thought the frame at the end informing us that Nesbiltt had received an OBE/MBE was well done.  What was that for? Not investigating the murders?  Speaking as someone who lived in North Belfast at the time it was almost more scary looking back at it 35 years later than living through it at the time.

We know that Murphy, Bates and Moore are all dead but what happened to Fat Sam McAllister??

There's no doubting that they were psychopaths.  However, the part in bold is just not correct.  When they murdered a protestant there was generally another motive (feud/bar squabbles/informers). On the other hand, the sole motive for the murder of almost all their Catholic victims was religion/sectarianism.

exactly, i only caught the last 20 minutes but they were hungry one night and wanted to get a feed, no chippys were iopen so, and i quote, ''let's go get a taig then'', 2 lorry drivers who were protestant were killed because they were thought to have been catholic, anyone that thinks it wasn't pure sectarian hatred needs to catch a grip ffs

[RMDrive]

Is it realistic that they were all psychopaths? I mean what are the chances that a group of people all from the same area would all have a similar mental issue? I doubt it to be honest. Maybe some of them were crazy but some went along with those horrible things while being fully aware of what they were doing and choosing to do so. Calling them all psychos may help people distance themselves from it which is understandable but is the truth not that some of them were just hate filled people who chose to murder people cause they wanted to?

[Franko]

Have met May Blood several times, she's generally a good sort.  I understand the reaction of the people of the Shankill Rd.  The Butchers murders had nothing to do with politics, national identity or even religion...these guys were just psychopaths.
After a shaky start I thought Nolan get a good job of his questioning of Jimmy Nesbitt (didn't ask him about Cold Feet though).  I thought the frame at the end informing us that Nesbiltt had received an OBE/MBE was well done.  What was that for? Not investigating the murders?  Speaking as someone who lived in North Belfast at the time it was almost more scary looking back at it 35 years later than living through it at the time.

We know that Murphy, Bates and Moore are all dead but what happened to Fat Sam McAllister??

There's no doubting that they were psychopaths.  However, the part in bold is just not correct.  When they murdered a protestant there was generally another motive (feud/bar squabbles/informers). On the other hand, the sole motive for the murder of almost all their Catholic victims was religion/sectarianism.

or...when they murdered a Prod that was generally OK (except when they thought they were Catholics) but when they murdered a Catholic...
My point was (and I'm not a pyschiatrist/psychologist) that though some of the individual murders were sectarian in nature (and some weren't) my opinion is that these guys killed first and foremost becaused they enjoyed it whether it was cutting the throat of a Catholic or poisoning and shooting a man in a dispute over the purchase/sale of a car.  Lenny Murphy is alleged to have killed 5 people between his release from jail in July 1982 and his death in November 1982, the first the day after he was released.

The highlighted part is plain bullshit.  Please don't do that again.

I've no doubt that these people enjoyed killing.  It doesn't change the fact that their selection of victims was totally sectarian.

[Tony Baloney]

Everyone, including the peeler, said fhey killed out of hatred for Catholics. To suggest otherwise is wrong.

[illdecide]

Everyone, including the peeler, said fhey killed out of hatred for Catholics. To suggest otherwise is wrong.

Exactly...them bastids killed catholics and any protestant that got it was mistaken for one, sure they may have killed a few of their own in a power struggle but the throat cutting was prepared for the Taigs, as most people say Nolan did do a decent job. That Cop that was interviewed was a lying bastid from the word go and you could see it clearly, his politician answer for any difficult question was "we did not go after Loyalists or Republican terrorists, we went after murderers.