The Magdalene Sisters/laundries/church control in Ireland

[pintsofguinness]

Just seen this film on tonight, I didnt get watching it but I have seen it a few times. If there is a part of Irish history I am ashamed off this would be it. It's scary the control the Catholic church had over people.

How could anyone send their daughters to places like these, rip new born babies from their child and send them God knows where, refuse to believe sexual abuse allegations against priests etc. 

I cant make any sense of it, where people brainwashed or what?!

[orangeman]

It was horrific Pints but it was part of our history I'm also ashamed to say.

But don't forget - the church had absolute and total control back then - you dare not say a word about them or you'd have been banished. So it's difficult to criticise our parents etc - the authorities knew full well it was going on and allowed it to happen. Shame on them.

[pintsofguinness]

No, first and foremost Id blame the parents who allowed and supported their daughters to be treated in such a way and it's scary to think that it's really not that long ago.  We laugh at these suicide bombers thinking if they blow themselves up they'll be rewarded with virgins in heaven when really a few years ago Irish people had just as silly notions. (Some would still have them today) I just can't get my head around it at all.

[Pangurban]

Difficult to understand Pints, i sometimes wonder if we are judging these events in the moral,social and informational context of the present time, and forgetting that things were very different back then in terms of information, opportunity,and moral outlook. The care of the elderly, and mentally ill in institutions both here and in Britian during the 50s and early 60s would today be described as appalling abuse. Yet people were doing the best they could with very limited knowledge and resources. While there undoubtedly failures on the part of the Catholic Church, the crux of the problem was political failure, and all shades of society share the responsibility for that

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Excellent post, Pangurban

Context is everything.  The Church did exert control over the people which cannot be understood today because of the way we view the Church and its representatives today.  This is not to excuse what happened to people during those times.  The state and individuals asked religious orders to take on work that they would not do themselves and in some cases individuals over-stepped the mark causing unacceptable hurt and harm to innocents.   Is the treatment of the unmarried mothers and their children worse than a modern alternative where they are sent to the UK for abortions?

Judgement is often too easy from the comfort of our modern moral high ground.

I don't know if we can let the religious institutions off as easily as that TYP. When a woman is raped, that isn't "over-stepping the mark", its evil on a huge scale and made worse by the fact that these people used their position in society to manipulate people for their own ends and those in overall authority involved in cover-ups became complicit in this evil.

[pintsofguinness]

But what about the parents who let it happen?
None of it would have happened if the priest, when he arrived at the door, was told to f**k off. 

[Pangurban]

Pint asks....But what about the parents who let it happen

There is a certain element in Irish society who are ultra-conservative, sanctimonious and hypocritical, they still exist today. I suspect that the parents of these unfortunate victims inhabited this group. Some of them were simple minded conformists, while others were small minded, money grubbing tyrants with pretensions of respectability.

[orangeman]

But what about the parents who let it happen?
None of it would have happened if the priest, when he arrived at the door, was told to f**k off. 

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

[pintsofguinness]

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

I do blame them, how can anyone be so stupid, so brain washed!
Same with the sex abuse allegations, children didnt tell because their parents wouldnt believe that about the priest?

I just dont get it.  I cant even think of a modern day example that would explain it or make me understand.

[Puckoon]

Difficult to understand Pints, i sometimes wonder if we are judging these events in the moral,social and informational context of the present time, and forgetting that things were very different back then in terms of information, opportunity,and moral outlook. The care of the elderly, and mentally ill in institutions both here and in Britian during the 50s and early 60s would today be described as appalling abuse. Yet people were doing the best they could with very limited knowledge and resources. While there undoubtedly failures on the part of the Catholic Church, the crux of the problem was political failure, and all shades of society share the responsibility for that

I didnt watch the film, but since first hearing the song the Magdalene Launderies, Ive been interested and shocked by some of the stories from that time.

With respect Pangurban - I dont think that the information ,opportunity nor morality of the time had any consequence whatsoever on the ability of men and women (both of the cloth, and lay people) to inflict some of the most horrendous evil upon the innocents of the time. Many people were working the best the could with limited knowledge and resources, but it takes neither for a priest/bishop/brother/headmaster to prey (and make no mistake - they preyed (the irony)) opon the weak, upon the position of the church at the time, and furthermore upon the poor people who really were those who were limited in both knowledge and resources. Resources, knowledge and the political environment (about which I know little) may somewhat explain the canings and harsh punishments - but not the rape, abuse and systematic coverups by Evil men and women who hid behind dog collars and the catholic guilt, two things that they knew would keep the victims quiet, and they exploited magnificently.

I just finished reading a book called "Please dont make me go" by John Fenton. The memoirs of a young english catholic lad - who was systemaitically beaten, and watched his mother beaten by his Irish father. When he fought back, the father had him thrown in a correctional school run by the Christian Brothers. He loved God, loved the catholic faith - but by Christ did he hate those brothers.



Worth a read.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inteWfmzui0 Joni Mitchells Magdalene launderies - Moore and Sinnot.

Is the treatment of the unmarried mothers and their children worse than a modern alternative where they are sent to the UK for abortions?

Judgement is often too easy from the comfort of our modern moral high ground.

Im not quite sure what you mean regarding the "sending" of unmarried mothers to the UK for abortions?

Id wager a bet that if the girls washed through the magdalene launderies were given the opportunities and support available to their unmarried pregnant counterparts in 2009 -they wouldnt hesitate to let us know which options seem better suited.

The comfort of my moral highground isnt necessary for the condemning of individual acts of evil, and the unfortunate covering up of these acts by those who didnt have the strength to tell the truth because it would have damaged the Church. My opinion is that these revelations have damaged the church, but the church is not God, nor is it goodness. For all the good that the church does do it is a human institution and therefore is as subject to corruptivity as the NYPD. The church was necessary, and is necessary, but not at the expense of the covering up of so much as one act of abuse by its members, IMHO.

[orangeman]

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

I do blame them, how can anyone be so stupid, so brain washed!
Same with the sex abuse allegations, children didnt tell because their parents wouldnt believe that about the priest?

I just dont get it.  I cant even think of a modern day example that would explain it or make me understand.

Of course it's beyond our comprehension but look at today's front page in the IN about the cops in Castlereagh and Gough Barracks.  You know what I mean ?.

[Hardy]

Some good points there. It would be interesting to try to make a list of some of the things we accept as normal in today's society that will be viewed as reprehensible in 50 years' time. Hard isn't it? I'm willing to bet it will be the things we least expect, so I'm not sure what to put my hand up for now and take the blame for letting it happen, even though nobody around me seems to see anything wrong with it. I'm sure the Magdalene laundries were viewed with universal approval 50 years ago - works of charity, etc. - probably in much the same way that many view, say, the Equality Agency today.

[Myles Na G.]

Pints - you know that that was NEVER going to happen. It was the times they lived in - don't condemn them for that - surely you can scratch your head and wonder about it but don't condemn them.

I do blame them, how can anyone be so stupid, so brain washed!
Same with the sex abuse allegations, children didnt tell because their parents wouldnt believe that about the priest?

I just dont get it.  I cant even think of a modern day example that would explain it or make me understand.

Of course it's beyond our comprehension but look at today's front page in the IN about the cops in Castlereagh and Gough Barracks.  You know what I mean ?.

Not really, no.

[ONeill]

Some good points there. It would be interesting to try to make a list of some of the things we accept as normal in today's society that will be viewed as reprehensible in 50 years' time. Hard isn't it? I'm willing to bet it will be the things we least expect, so I'm not sure what to put my hand up for now and take the blame for letting it happen, even though nobody around me seems to see anything wrong with it. I'm sure the Magdalene laundries were viewed with universal approval 50 years ago - works of charity, etc. - probably in much the same way that many view, say, the Equality Agency today.

Smoking was good for you.
The Ulster Fry was a hearty breakfast
Fish on a Friday
Limbo

[Hardy]

Some possibilities:
- Meat eating will be outlawed and all us carnivores will be vilified as equivalent to cannibals.
- Animal "rights" will be promoted to the extent that  it will be illegal to kill an animal (and, horror, horse racing will be abolished). Our turn-of the century attitude to animals will be seen as savage.
- The age of consent will be continually lowered and children's rights will be continually promoted to the level where paedophilia will be an irrelevant concept. The jailing of paedophiles in our time will be seen as discriminatory and backward (I must emphasise that I think we're right and they will be very wrong).
- The prohibition of discrimination on the basis of sexual preference will reach its logical conclusion(s) - use your imagination.
- The right to self expression and freedom of the individual will reach its logical conclusion(s) - expect to see people defecating in the streets, for instance.

Think it's fantastical?

Who, 50 years ago, would have predicted the demise of the church and its influence on society?
Who would have predicted the legalisation of homosexuality?
Who would have anticipated the effective disappearance of censorship of any kind in the media?

Of course an opposite outcome is also possible - society is due, sometime this century, to undergo one of its periodic cycle reversals and we'll lurch in the direction of curtailed freedoms, greater control - back to something like Victorian values.