Things that make you go What the F**k?

[Rudi]

EU Beef deals with South America, forcing the Irish man out or reducing his herd size substantially . While Brazil cut down more rain forests for land for this excess substandand beef. Not to mention shipping, air freight costs & associated carbon emissions to get this beef on our plates. By the next 25 years the EU will be wound up, countries will leave one by one, it will be seen for the steaming pile of shite that it is. The hypocrisy of these fools & our Irish puppet politicians with their trousers around their ankles knows no bounds.

Have you any links to this? Any links to the change in EU food standards regulations allowing substandard beef to be exported? Any links to any gaps in the market created by countries with massive economies leaving the EU? Any links to subsidies offered to Irish/EU farmers over the past 40 years?

Yes, goggle is your friend, Irish Times have an article about question 1. Sub standard is subjective, I have eaten Brazilian Steak - its shite. Third question, well its happened, the UK has left. Subsidies are a total false economy, always come to an end & when they do, will be painful.

All I could find is a 4 year old article. Have you nothing more up to date? (Preferably not the John McGuirk diaries) Anything showing a slump in Irish beef exports? I found this article from last week, but maybe you've something more recent..
https://www.thecattlesite.com/news/irish-beef-exports-to-the-uk-increase-15

I replied to Austin P in relation to land grab aided by Coillte, so less land to farm will lead to less beef, less revenue, more people living away from small villages / small towns, which will have an adverse affect on society. The trade deal with SA will fill the void left by decrease in beef, which will inevitably happen if we reduce farm land, Irish government reaches targets of reducing cattle stock, as per climate change targets.

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Must be tough being this angry and annoyed at everything all the time.

[Rudi]

Must be tough being this angry and annoyed at everything all the time.

I presume that comment was aimed at me. I'm not angry at all, I'm merely have a reasoned debate with General Lee, who comes across as being polite, despite the fact we probably have different opinions on this particular topic. People can have reasoned debate without being angry, you should try it sometime, might improve your life.
Please quote examples of where I'm angry all the time.

[J70]

How much "decent" Irish farming land is going into forestry?

In my own case, half of what constituted our family farm in south Donegal was planted by Coillte about 20 years ago when my auld lad retired. The rest we've been renting since, for better or worse. This is drumlin country and the land needs a lot of work just to support raising hardy beef cattle breeds. You can't have cattle on the land basically from November through until May when the grass finally starts to grow again or they poach the f**k out of it. You have to put slurry or fertilizer out pretty regularly, which itself can be hard to do many years as the land is too wet to drive a tractor across it, never mind a full tank of slurry (I remember years when it would be so continuously wet that we had to simply blow it over the hedge into the field from the road just to empty the pit ahead of the winter - much of it probably ran straight down into the river). For my father, getting it planted was simply a way to ensure some minimum level of income for him (and later my mother) from fairly marginal land. Neither myself or my siblings were ever given the option of even thinking about trying to scratch a living out of the land - off to university and professional careers for all of us.

On the other hand, I have big issues with planting large tracts of land with the likes of Sitka Spruce. It is a non-native species and they plant the trees so densely that there is zero sunlight reaching the ground and thus no undergrowth. The soil gets acidified, which affects local streams and rivers and the biodiversity within. There is little to no wildlife (including invertebrates) you'd associate with native woodlands in these plantations due to the lack of any plants apart from the trees themselves. You might get something along the edge where sunlight fosters the growth of additional species, but once you ten feet into the interior, forget it.

Surely there are native tree species, including spruces and pines, which could be planted on this type of land in a manner which both supports biodiversity and carbon sequestration goals but also could provide lumber through thinning on a sustainable basis?

I would agree on the Brazilian beef thing - no f**king way we should be supporting what they're doing over there in the Amazon.

[Armagh18]

How much "decent" Irish farming land is going into forestry?

In my own case, half of what constituted our family farm in south Donegal was planted by Coillte about 20 years ago when my auld lad retired. The rest we've been renting since, for better or worse. This is drumlin country and the land needs a lot of work just to support raising hardy beef cattle breeds. You can't have cattle on the land basically from November through until May when the grass finally starts to grow again or they poach the f**k out of it. You have to put slurry or fertilizer out pretty regularly, which itself can be hard to do many years as the land is too wet to drive a tractor across it, never mind a full tank of slurry (I remember years when it would be so continuously wet that we had to simply blow it over the hedge into the field from the road just to empty the pit ahead of the winter - much of it probably ran straight down into the river). For my father, getting it planted was simply a way to ensure some minimum level of income for him (and later my mother) from fairly marginal land. Neither myself or my siblings were ever given the option of even thinking about trying to scratch a living out of the land - off to university and professional careers for all of us.

On the other hand, I have big issues with planting large tracts of land with the likes of Sitka Spruce. It is a non-native species and they plant the trees so densely that there is zero sunlight reaching the ground and thus no undergrowth. The soil gets acidified, which affects local streams and rivers and the biodiversity within. There is little to no wildlife (including invertebrates) you'd associate with native woodlands in these plantations due to the lack of any plants apart from the trees themselves. You might get something along the edge where sunlight fosters the growth of additional species, but once you ten feet into the interior, forget it.

Surely there are native tree species, including spruces and pines, which could be planted on this type of land in a manner which both supports biodiversity and carbon sequestration goals but also could provide lumber through thinning on a sustainable basis?

I would agree on the Brazilian beef thing - no f**king way we should be supporting what they're doing over there in the Amazon.

surely we produce enough beef of our own??

[J70]

Unfortunately it's way bigger than Ireland. China, Egypt, the US, European countries all import large quantities of Brazilian beef.

[Milltown Row2]

New alcohol guidelines recommending that Canadians limit themselves to just two drinks a week and ideally cut alcohol altogether

[Rudi]

How much "decent" Irish farming land is going into forestry?

In my own case, half of what constituted our family farm in south Donegal was planted by Coillte about 20 years ago when my auld lad retired. The rest we've been renting since, for better or worse. This is drumlin country and the land needs a lot of work just to support raising hardy beef cattle breeds. You can't have cattle on the land basically from November through until May when the grass finally starts to grow again or they poach the f**k out of it. You have to put slurry or fertilizer out pretty regularly, which itself can be hard to do many years as the land is too wet to drive a tractor across it, never mind a full tank of slurry (I remember years when it would be so continuously wet that we had to simply blow it over the hedge into the field from the road just to empty the pit ahead of the winter - much of it probably ran straight down into the river). For my father, getting it planted was simply a way to ensure some minimum level of income for him (and later my mother) from fairly marginal land. Neither myself or my siblings were ever given the option of even thinking about trying to scratch a living out of the land - off to university and professional careers for all of us.

On the other hand, I have big issues with planting large tracts of land with the likes of Sitka Spruce. It is a non-native species and they plant the trees so densely that there is zero sunlight reaching the ground and thus no undergrowth. The soil gets acidified, which affects local streams and rivers and the biodiversity within. There is little to no wildlife (including invertebrates) you'd associate with native woodlands in these plantations due to the lack of any plants apart from the trees themselves. You might get something along the edge where sunlight fosters the growth of additional species, but once you ten feet into the interior, forget it.

Surely there are native tree species, including spruces and pines, which could be planted on this type of land in a manner which both supports biodiversity and carbon sequestration goals but also could provide lumber through thinning on a sustainable basis?

I would agree on the Brazilian beef thing - no f**king way we should be supporting what they're doing over there in the Amazon.

Good post J70, the truth is most of the land ear marked for forestry is along the western seaboard, ie Donegal, Connacht, West Clare, Kerry, west Cork & some pockets of midland counties. This land was always a struggle as you say to make a living. However it should be an option to remain on a poor farm, nobody should be coerced into leaving for the big town & cities if they are happy scraping away. I posted a link from Michael Fitz, Independent TD in Roscommon, may be of some interest when you get time.

[Gabriel_Hurl]

New alcohol guidelines recommending that Canadians limit themselves to just two drinks a week and ideally cut alcohol altogether

Guidelines from a charity that deals with substance abuse.
Said they based it on 6,000 studies - but only really used 16 of them.
A pile o' shite.

[grounded]

How much "decent" Irish farming land is going into forestry?

In my own case, half of what constituted our family farm in south Donegal was planted by Coillte about 20 years ago when my auld lad retired. The rest we've been renting since, for better or worse. This is drumlin country and the land needs a lot of work just to support raising hardy beef cattle breeds. You can't have cattle on the land basically from November through until May when the grass finally starts to grow again or they poach the f**k out of it. You have to put slurry or fertilizer out pretty regularly, which itself can be hard to do many years as the land is too wet to drive a tractor across it, never mind a full tank of slurry (I remember years when it would be so continuously wet that we had to simply blow it over the hedge into the field from the road just to empty the pit ahead of the winter - much of it probably ran straight down into the river). For my father, getting it planted was simply a way to ensure some minimum level of income for him (and later my mother) from fairly marginal land. Neither myself or my siblings were ever given the option of even thinking about trying to scratch a living out of the land - off to university and professional careers for all of us.

On the other hand, I have big issues with planting large tracts of land with the likes of Sitka Spruce. It is a non-native species and they plant the trees so densely that there is zero sunlight reaching the ground and thus no undergrowth. The soil gets acidified, which affects local streams and rivers and the biodiversity within. There is little to no wildlife (including invertebrates) you'd associate with native woodlands in these plantations due to the lack of any plants apart from the trees themselves. You might get something along the edge where sunlight fosters the growth of additional species, but once you ten feet into the interior, forget it.

Surely there are native tree species, including spruces and pines, which could be planted on this type of land in a manner which both supports biodiversity and carbon sequestration goals but also could provide lumber through thinning on a sustainable basis?

I would agree on the Brazilian beef thing - no f**king way we should be supporting what they're doing over there in the Amazon.

There was some research into the effects of high density planting of those non-native spruce on peat/bog area's and carbon sequestration. In many cases it actually led to net decrease in carbon sequestration as well as those terrible effects on biodiversity, soil/water quality etc.

[seafoid]

Natives Irish trees used to be prized across Europe. The Brits cut them all down. Planting Sitka spruce is short sighted short termism.
The land can carry far more valuable species.

[J70]

How much "decent" Irish farming land is going into forestry?

In my own case, half of what constituted our family farm in south Donegal was planted by Coillte about 20 years ago when my auld lad retired. The rest we've been renting since, for better or worse. This is drumlin country and the land needs a lot of work just to support raising hardy beef cattle breeds. You can't have cattle on the land basically from November through until May when the grass finally starts to grow again or they poach the f**k out of it. You have to put slurry or fertilizer out pretty regularly, which itself can be hard to do many years as the land is too wet to drive a tractor across it, never mind a full tank of slurry (I remember years when it would be so continuously wet that we had to simply blow it over the hedge into the field from the road just to empty the pit ahead of the winter - much of it probably ran straight down into the river). For my father, getting it planted was simply a way to ensure some minimum level of income for him (and later my mother) from fairly marginal land. Neither myself or my siblings were ever given the option of even thinking about trying to scratch a living out of the land - off to university and professional careers for all of us.

On the other hand, I have big issues with planting large tracts of land with the likes of Sitka Spruce. It is a non-native species and they plant the trees so densely that there is zero sunlight reaching the ground and thus no undergrowth. The soil gets acidified, which affects local streams and rivers and the biodiversity within. There is little to no wildlife (including invertebrates) you'd associate with native woodlands in these plantations due to the lack of any plants apart from the trees themselves. You might get something along the edge where sunlight fosters the growth of additional species, but once you ten feet into the interior, forget it.

Surely there are native tree species, including spruces and pines, which could be planted on this type of land in a manner which both supports biodiversity and carbon sequestration goals but also could provide lumber through thinning on a sustainable basis?

I would agree on the Brazilian beef thing - no f**king way we should be supporting what they're doing over there in the Amazon.

Good post J70, the truth is most of the land ear marked for forestry is along the western seaboard, ie Donegal, Connacht, West Clare, Kerry, west Cork & some pockets of midland counties. This land was always a struggle as you say to make a living. However it should be an option to remain on a poor farm, nobody should be coerced into leaving for the big town & cities if they are happy scraping away. I posted a link from Michael Fitz, Independent TD in Roscommon, may be of some interest when you get time.

Thanks Rudi. Watched a bit of there and did some additional reading through my lunch (I've been away from the scene for a long time, so I'm far from up to date on these matters).

At this point, pending further research, I can't really come down either way.

And again... disclaimer... I've been away a long time now and may be way out of touch.

But anyway, on the first issue, I will say I'm not very comfortable with the Irish government turning all of this stuff (and its not just forestry) over to private companies and funds, often from other countries. On the other hand, does the Irish taxpayer want to pay for this type of investment which is defensive in nature, a bit like spending money on your home to maintain it and prevent deterioration?

Second issue, the effect on land prices and putting it out of reach for ordinary famers? Yes, that's concerning, but honestly, at least where I come from, farming has for decades now been moving to a part time gig. Not all, but most farmers I knew either worked other jobs or had spouses who did (that was the case in our house). There was just no possible way to make enough money to raise a family and maintain land, fences, machinery and buildings on the income you might get from headage, calf or lamb sales and, later, schemes such as REPS. To me, I took it as written that small time farming in the west of Ireland was going to evolve into something little more than a pastime for local teachers or postmen or tradesmen. Many of these people would probably be just fine with getting 50K more for their 30 acres that forestry expansion might bring, especially if their kids weren't going to be taking over from them. Of course, that WILL negatively affect the young lad trying to scale up his operation into something more sustainable or the local couple looking for a site to build a house. There are always going to be pluses and minuses with anything. My wife is from the western US and it would be my dream to buy some land out there some day and do a bit of small scale, part time ranching while being within easy reach of spectacular mountains and scenery. Unfortunately, land and housing prices have been driven through the roof in the past few years as more and more wealthy people are moving in to those areas and the chances of us being able to do that are not high.

[Rudi]

Fair play for the detailed response, my brother & brothers in law still do a bit on the side, 20 to 80 acres, but as you say work in reasonable flexible jobs. Personally I think its headspace & quality time away from wives & kids that drives them!
Still I dont like the coercive/ control of the EU in these issues, nor the funds taking them over.
Your wife must be from Wyoming or Montana, got to say I have been to numerous states in the US but not these. Hopefully some day, looks beautiful, particularly in Autumn. Pretty pricey all the same.

[Armagh18]

Biggest issue driving up prices here are OO backed protestant farmers buying every bit of land that comes up. Different issue i know.

[LC]

Biggest issue driving up prices here are OO backed protestant farmers buying every bit of land that comes up. Different issue i know.

Heard of that happening, quite pathetic but no surprise either.