British State Collusion

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Of course the whole of the RUC knew fine rightly. You'd be some dose not to notice. Doesn't necessarily make them all complicit though does it? Plenty had unionist/loyalist leanings of which no doubt descended into outright cooperating/colluding with loyalists. I'm sure the of the decent RUC officers very few were willing to become whistleblowers for obvious reasons, can you really blame them?

You may or may not blame them but if one extends the definition of collusion to include omission then, they colluded. 

They may have felt/been coerced into that collusion, but it collusion it was.

/Jim.

Edit:

Link to discussion on defining collusion: http://www.rte.ie/news/special-reports/2013/1203/490666-smithwick-tribunal-collusion/

[general_lee]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

Was the issue of missing weapons not a UDR one more than RUC?

To be frank, it's hard to discuss this with such polarised people as Northerners.  Everyone is very one-eyed about themmuns.

If we take the Smithwick Inquiry definition of collusion then most UDR men and many RUC officers were guilty of collusion.  However, those that applauded Smithwick are the same ones who will deny the facts presented about state collusion.

There had to be a police force and they were in a difficult position, particularly as State policy was to be "hands off" to one side for such a long time.  Creating the UDR was a bad, bad idea.  Once things kicked off there was nothing more likely than it becoming a Unionist militia.  To me, that is exactly what happened.  I doubt you will find another regiment with as many criminal convictions in the British Army (and that only accounts for those that were caught).  The fact that so much equipment such as weapons and uniforms went missing and so many within didn't even hide their association means that any subsequent recruits have to be deemed colluding.

/Jim.

A lot of these weapons were "stolen", very much an RUC matter to investigate "theft", no?

I don't know if you're intentionally being disingenuous with your "polarised" quip. Quite far off the mark imo, especially where some of the victims are concerned - See the dignity of Malachy McDonald.

The rest is spot on.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

A lot of these weapons were "stolen", very much an RUC matter to investigate "theft", no?

I don't know if you're intentionally being disingenuous with your "polarised" quip. Quite far off the mark imo, especially where some of the victims are concerned - See the dignity of Malachy McDonald.

The rest is spot on.

Valid point about theft.  Apologies, wasn't intent on being disingenuous with "polarised" comment.

I guess my point is that the varying definitions of collusion are used by many (I shouldn't generalise too much) when talking about their own versus the others.

/Jim.

[brokencrossbar1]

The reality is that no one knows the full extent of the level of involvement of members of the security forces.  The average cop on the street may not have had direct knowledge of it but there's no doubt that the majority who have had an inkling and not just that but the majority would have had a sectarian view into how to police and that cannot be denied.  There were more badduns then gooduns and that's for sure.

The big issue is not the bobby on the beat though but the higher echelons of power both within the police/udr/government etc who blatantly endorsed this behaviour.  The psychopath will always be a psychopath as its in his DNA.  The men at the top always had the distance between themselves and the actions to pull it all back and stop it.  They didn't,  they actively encouraged it as to coin a phrase used the other night they could not fight a battle on 2 fronts.  By doing this they openly allied themselves to the terrorists and in my view this is akin to war crimes.  This is the biggest crime in the whole thing,  they had the power to stop this murdering and refused.

[Franko]

The entire force below the level of the highest 'rotten apple' is corrupt.  No matter how cleanly any individual officer operated, if they were taking direction from a corrupt officer they are tainted.

The only thing that needs to be determined is exactly how high that was.  I'd contend that it went right to the VERY top (and I don't mean the Chief Constable).

[muppet]

It's the only thing you could find to post about on this thread.

Playing the man here hardy?

wtf?

He might be a bit extreme in his point- but unfortunately he's kind of correct.
IMO it's still the case! C'est la vie, but why attack the man?( fox)

Play the man? Attack? If you call than an attack, you can't have lasted too long on the football pitches of Meath.

Your contributions to threads is often so vague and lacking in substance that they give the impression you either;

   
• don't know what you are talking about,
• think you are have more foresight than others or
• are being passive aggressive.

Think its somewhere between the latter two myself but wouldn't totally rule out the first

I'm being stalked (though with a ridiculous twelve-month time constant) by the idiot philosopher/psychologist.

Listen, I'm from Meath. There's no passive about my aggressive.

Stalked? Serious case of paranoia there to add to the other delusional characteristics.
Pandering to your own vanity perhaps - I don't think anyone likes you that much

Holy shit! Muppet - do something. This one is your stalker, not mine.

He reminds me of the fella in the midlands years ago, who had campaign posters with "Stop the pedophiles!" on it.

[Tony Baloney]

Google Sergeant Joe Campbell if you want to see what happened the good cops.

[Rossfan]

I'm sure most people suspected that all along.
Still good to get it confirmed in an official report.

[johnneycool]

I'm sure most people suspected that all along.
Still good to get it confirmed in an official report.

Dublin media for years thought collusion was made up, so yes its good to get an agent of the state saying that other agents of the state colluded and assisted loyalist murder gangs to freely operate with impunity just to enlighten those less well informed to the south of what was actually going on.

[muppet]

It is great to see collusion officially acknowledged, but.......

It seems to set a very low standard for 'collusion', echoing and even referencing the Smithwick definition.

Here is part of what Smithwick defined as 'collusion':

..While (collusion) generally means the commission of an act, I am also of the view that it should be considered in terms of an omission or failure to act...

Most of us here would believe that RUC collusion with Loyalist terrorists meets a much more robust definition than simply '..an omission or failure to act..'. I would suggest that most of us believe such RUC collusion would meet a far stricter definition than any official Gárda collusion (let's face it the vast majority of Gárdaí were no fans of the IRA/INLA), so while I am glad to see an official finding of 'collusion' I am suspicious of the motives in dumbing down the definition of collision.

I suspect just about anyone in any position of power, north, south or in London could be shown to be guilty of such a wide open definition of collusion, simply by 'omission or failure to act'.

[Over the Bar]

Likely to be followed by a Commons apology from Cameron with the insistence that there is no need whatsoever to waste taxpayers money with an inquiry as the collusion charge is accepted.

[Orior]

Likely to be followed by a Commons apology from Cameron with the insistence that there is no need whatsoever to waste taxpayers money with an inquiry as the collusion charge is accepted.

I would agree with Cameron. Inquiries (and Enquiries) are a waste of money (unless you are a barrister). So forget the past and move on.

[GJL]

Likely to be followed by a Commons apology from Cameron with the insistence that there is no need whatsoever to waste taxpayers money with an inquiry as the collusion charge is accepted.

I would agree with Cameron. Inquiries (and Enquiries) are a waste of money (unless you are a barrister). So forget the past and move on.

Did you loose anyone in the troubles?

[Orior]

My wife lost two, one from each side of the conflict.

[SkillfulBill]

As we see more and more evidence of state sponsord terrorism. It continues to show that the British State is no better or worse than the Syria's and Libya's of this world. ONLY difference between them is their relative ability to control their global PR.