So what do ye think of the black card rule now?

[blewuporstuffed]

I agree about forwards taking steps. This seems to have crept in over the years as some sort of pseudo advantage rule, whereby a referee would allow a lad take a pile of steps if he was being fouled. That morphed into letting him take more steps if there was any contact at all.. That's something that does need to be addressed.

On the massed defence thing, it might work that way, I'm sure some teams will try it. But at the end of the day you have to score to win, and if they turn the ball over on the counter attacks, that's where gaps will appear. In the past someone like Donegal (not picking on them, every team did it) would counter attack, turn the ball over and foul immediately to let the cover defence get set up. That option is greatly reduced now.

Also, a key part of the blanket defence was to block runners. The illegal body check is now also eliminated.

That is the one good thing about the black card, if it can eliminate this. (however duffy missed the one blantant example of this in the tyrone dublin game and chose to give two yellows instead  )

[muppet]

Disagree, we've already seen a lot more kicking into the forwards and this will continue IMO. I think most of the top teams are now going out to score more than there opponents rather than concentrating on keeping their opponents score down. Besides, the game is always evolving and different teams will play in different ways so there's no right answer as to how things will develop. Bottom line here is the physicality is not being taken out and is a complete red herring and it's up to teams and players to learn how to defend within the rules and without the help of 13 of your team-mates.

The reality is all defending has been neutered by an ill-conceived blunt instrument. One mistimed tackle can see a player walk in the first minute. Why would anyone risk ending their season like that?

Expect very high scores in some games and teams running out of subs in others with refs who properly follow the rules. The latter refs will probably be crucified.

An honest tackle which is mistimed should not result in a black card. A DELIBERATE pull down in any minute should result in one. That's what refs have to decide now.

You're still just pissed off about Ritchie Feeney's black card in March. That was cynical and a black card all day long, and rightly so.

Ah come on AZ, there has been plenty of action since Paddy's Day.

For example Dublin v Mayo is what I am mainly basing my argument on.

The Mayo defenders, 4 All-Stars among them just stood off and watch the goals fly in. If goals is only we want then great. But you can get that in the schoolyard.

[AZOffaly]

If you have 4 All Star defenders standing off, then you have 4 All Star defenders that are not confident in their own tackling ability. That's going to come as they realise they are still allowed tackle. I don't know where this preconception has come from that you cannot tackle any more. You can, you just can't drag lads down deliberately.

[muppet]

If you have 4 All Star defenders standing off, then you have 4 All Star defenders that are not confident in their own tackling ability. That's going to come as they realise they are still allowed tackle. I don't know where this preconception has come from that you cannot tackle any more. You can, you just can't drag lads down deliberately.

This is precisely the point.

The black card advocates are telling All-Stars defenders how to do it.

The rest of us are pointing out the obvious problem.

[AZOffaly]

If you have 4 All Star defenders standing off, then you have 4 All Star defenders that are not confident in their own tackling ability. That's going to come as they realise they are still allowed tackle. I don't know where this preconception has come from that you cannot tackle any more. You can, you just can't drag lads down deliberately.

This is precisely the point.

The black card advocates are telling All-Stars defenders how to do it.

The rest of us are pointing out the obvious problem.

Black Card Advocates are telling them 'Lads, tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that. Just don't drag him down when he beats you, and don't throw a sly body check to stop him making a run'. You know. The f**king rules as they have always been there. I don't understand why any of this is new. It's like you're saying because you're not allowed drag a lad onto the ground, the art of defending is dead. That's nonsense in my opinion.

I can't see how that's possibly a 'problem'.

[muppet]

If you have 4 All Star defenders standing off, then you have 4 All Star defenders that are not confident in their own tackling ability. That's going to come as they realise they are still allowed tackle. I don't know where this preconception has come from that you cannot tackle any more. You can, you just can't drag lads down deliberately.

This is precisely the point.

The black card advocates are telling All-Stars defenders how to do it.

The rest of us are pointing out the obvious problem.

Black Card Advocates are telling them 'Lads, tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that. Just don't drag him down when he beats you, and don't throw a sly body check to stop him making a run'.

I can't see how that's possibly a 'problem'.

The problem is that the above is not happening.

[AZOffaly]

What above? Sorry, I missed that.

[muppet]

What above? Sorry, I missed that.

tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that

Instead we have shootouts. I expect some awful massacres this summer.

[AZOffaly]

What above? Sorry, I missed that.

tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that

Instead we have shootouts. I expect some awful massacres this summer.

But that's not the fault of the black card. That's because a lot of defenders are having to relearn the basics, or at least get confident in their own ability to execute the basics.

My big fear of the black card is that it will encourage diving to get black cards issued, and that's something I would have serious sympathy with defenders for if it becomes a major issue. But I'm sorry, a lad telling me he can't defend against Bernard Brogan because he can't drag him to the ground when he gets the ball doesn't make me pine for the art of defending. It just makes me think you need to improve your technique.

The thing is I believe most county defenders absolutely CAN defend properly, they've just lost confidence in their ability to do so because they've been getting away with the other stuff for so long. It will settle down in the Championship I think.

Edit ** Also I should point out, because we're talking about defending here, the forwards were probably the worse culprits of the lot, because they were dragging defenders down to stop a quick counter attack. That's what frustrated me more than any defender dragging a lad down in a scoreable position.

[muppet]

What above? Sorry, I missed that.

tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that

Instead we have shootouts. I expect some awful massacres this summer.

But that's not the fault of the black card. That's because a lot of defenders are having to relearn the basics, or at least get confident in their own ability to execute the basics.

My big fear of the black card is that it will encourage diving to get black cards issued, and that's something I would have serious sympathy with defenders for if it becomes a major issue. But I'm sorry, a lad telling me he can't defend against Bernard Brogan because he can't drag him to the ground when he gets the ball doesn't make me pine for the art of defending. It just makes me think you need to improve your technique.

The thing is I believe most county defenders absolutely CAN defend properly, they've just lost confidence in their ability to do so because they've been getting away with the other stuff for so long. It will settle down in the Championship I think.

Edit ** Also I should point out, because we're talking about defending here, the forwards were probably the worse culprits of the lot, because they were dragging defenders down to stop a quick counter attack. That's what frustrated me more than any defender dragging a lad down in a scoreable position.

I don't think anyone is arguing for pulling & dragging. The danger for defenders is that physicality could get them in trouble. You mentioned diving, but even more innocent challenges could get players in trouble.

Ironically this could dovetail with the Provincial discussion. If, for example Dublin route everyone in Leinster, what appetite will anyone have for next year's Leinster Championship?

[Walter Cronc]

What above? Sorry, I missed that.

tackle away. No bother. Work like divils, dispossess the man, block him down, shoulder him, beat him to the ball, track his run, all of that

Instead we have shootouts. I expect some awful massacres this summer.

But that's not the fault of the black card. That's because a lot of defenders are having to relearn the basics, or at least get confident in their own ability to execute the basics.

My big fear of the black card is that it will encourage diving to get black cards issued, and that's something I would have serious sympathy with defenders for if it becomes a major issue. But I'm sorry, a lad telling me he can't defend against Bernard Brogan because he can't drag him to the ground when he gets the ball doesn't make me pine for the art of defending. It just makes me think you need to improve your technique.

The thing is I believe most county defenders absolutely CAN defend properly, they've just lost confidence in their ability to do so because they've been getting away with the other stuff for so long. It will settle down in the Championship I think.

Edit ** Also I should point out, because we're talking about defending here, the forwards were probably the worse culprits of the lot, because they were dragging defenders down to stop a quick counter attack. That's what frustrated me more than any defender dragging a lad down in a scoreable position.

I don't think anyone is arguing for pulling & dragging. The danger for defenders is that physicality could get them in trouble. You mentioned diving, but even more innocent challenges could get players in trouble.

Ironically this could dovetail with the Provincial discussion. If, for example Dublin route everyone in Leinster, what appetite will anyone have for next year's Leinster Championship?

Well those counties should work harder. Simple.

Donegal hammered Derry two years ago. I can bet it wont happen this summer!

[screenexile]

Here's my take on it... I grew up watching Tony Scullion and Kieran McKeever who were 2 of the best defenders of the 90s and the main compliment they got from anyone was "they are great readers of the game". Now correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard that saying in a good few years and the only defender I can think of where that applies at the minute would be Marc O'Se.

Defenders nowadays (Including Mayo's 4 allstars) are conditioned to mark from behind because they will always have cover from somebody dropping back when the attacker gets the ball in front. Take the other player away and they don't have the necessary skill to mark from the front and hence we have seen a multitude of corner backs 5 yards behind their attacker throughout the National League.

We will get back to the way it was in the 90s again and all will be good again but it will take a bit of time for lads to get their bearings defensively. People are generally coming round to be in favour of the black card and I think it will just be accepted as the norm after 2 years.

[muppet]

Here's my take on it... I grew up watching Tony Scullion and Kieran McKeever who were 2 of the best defenders of the 90s and the main compliment they got from anyone was "they are great readers of the game". Now correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard that saying in a good few years and the only defender I can think of where that applies at the minute would be Marc O'Se.

Defenders nowadays (Including Mayo's 4 allstars) are conditioned to mark from behind because they will always have cover from somebody dropping back when the attacker gets the ball in front. Take the other player away and they don't have the necessary skill to mark from the front and hence we have seen a multitude of corner backs 5 yards behind their attacker throughout the National League.

We will get back to the way it was in the 90s again and all will be good again but it will take a bit of time for lads to get their bearings defensively. People are generally coming round to be in favour of the black card and I think it will just be accepted as the norm after 2 years.

I agree with this I am afraid that to avoid 1 on 1 situations at the back, some teams will park the bus to keep the goals out. Donegal, for example, may see the logic of reverting to a 12 backs an 2 forwards line-up. Mayo might see too much risk in launching runners from the half back line and might move, for example Higgins (already happened), Keegan and say Vaughan into the half-forward line, picking more defenders to replace them.

[Croí na hÉireann]

It has changed the game to a non physical gaelic lite type sport. I m sure soccer had to evolve like this to become the w bland yet palatable sporting soufflé it is today.  It's impossible to defend against running teams.  Really Finding it a turn off.

Spot on.

That was your expectation pre the introduction of the black card Hardy, but have you seen enough games this year to support or refute that idea?

Because, in my opinion, its absolute nonsense to suggest the black card is impacting on the physicality of our games.

The views of the Tyrone lads here are just laughable. Dublin were far more physical in the game on Sunday and you've got Tyrone lads on that match thread moaning about the lack of black cards, and then on this thread the same lads moaning about lack of physicality!! Its probable that their frustraton lies with the rampant divers among their lads - that must be hugely annoying to them.

In reality, the black card does not impact on physical contact one bit. The Dublin-Tyrone match was a great example. Dublin got lots of tough tackles in on Tyrone lads. Over-penalised by Duffy in my opinion, but no doubt some were mis-timed or just badly executed. But no risk of a black card as all were attempted tackles.

We've had two perfect examples of a black card. Feeney in the club takes out a player off the ball who's trying to make a run. That's been the biggest benefit of the game. The off the ball blocking which was absolutely rampant among practically all teams at club and county level has completely disappeared.

The other was McNamee on Sunday. He first attempted a fair physical challenge. He caught O'Gara, slowed him down. O'Gara managed to ride through it, but then McNamee just tripped him up with no attempt to tackle or win the ball. Nothing physical about the latter trip and clear black card.

If Mick Lyons was playing today, in the same manner, he'd get plenty of yellows and reds, but I'd doubt he'd ever get a black. Because the black card attacks the sly/cyncial tackle, not the tough/robust tackle.

The refs, in the main, have done a super job on the black cards. The only worry is if the moaning of all the people who just don't understand the rule, seeps through to them and they start to be more profligate with it. Stuff like the "yellow card is the new bounce ball" etc is just maddening. Lads who don't know/understand the rules talking pure nonsense.

Presume that's aimed at me. Only going on what I've witnessed this year. The most prominent example is lads slabbering to the referee and as the referee calls them over for what can only be a black under the new rules a yellow mysteriously appears. The higher the profile of the player the greater the chance he will get away with it as the referee's don't want to issue blacks. Take the Ritchie Feeney example, the ref there almost apologised for issuing the black card, shrugging his shoulders to say that he was left with no choice.

I would agree with the rest of your post btw.

[BennyHarp]

I agree about forwards taking steps. This seems to have crept in over the years as some sort of pseudo advantage rule, whereby a referee would allow a lad take a pile of steps if he was being fouled. That morphed into letting him take more steps if there was any contact at all.. That's something that does need to be addressed.

On the massed defence thing, it might work that way, I'm sure some teams will try it. But at the end of the day you have to score to win, and if they turn the ball over on the counter attacks, that's where gaps will appear. In the past someone like Donegal (not picking on them, every team did it) would counter attack, turn the ball over and foul immediately to let the cover defence get set up. That option is greatly reduced now.

Also, a key part of the blanket defence was to block runners. The illegal body check is now also eliminated.

This could make teams retreat even faster as they can't slow down the counter attack and it will make the running game even more attractive as those deep lying players counter attack in droves off the shoulder. It's all well and good explaining how to execute the perfect tackle but it's clear that some counties do not have the personnel to go man to man for this coming season and I'd be massively surprised if the likes of Tyrone persist in doing so. It will be fascinating how it turns out and certainly adds a different dynamic to things.