Has the intercounty system in football told us all it’s ever going to tell us?

Started by caprea, February 13, 2020, 05:38:52 AM

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Look-Up!

You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones. 

five points

Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.

Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?

trailer

Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!

jb81

Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 03:17:55 PM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 02:46:45 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.

Is that not a description of the super 8s!

Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.

There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.

You seem fixated on all counties playing again equal opposition, its sport and within GAA it is a unique sport, you play for the county you are from, this means talent comes and goes and teams change for the better or the worse. Why should a county be excluded from ever having the opportunity to play one of the current top 8 teams.

Talent comes and goes, absolutely, and when your county gets a good crop of players and improve then there aim would be promotion and play 'bigger' counties on the way up through the leagues.
There is absolutely no benefit in teams getting hammered by Dublin and Kerry, and I have no doubt the players do not enjoy it. Just for the 'opportunity to play them'.
A good crop of players a promotion, interest grows in the county, maybe even a second promotion and a squad from Fermanagh/Tipp/Wicklow could be playing division two against the Corks, Meaths, Monaghans, even Tyrone if they got relegated from a competitive division one. And fancying there chances of maybe staying up, pulling of an upset.
Instead of 20 point hammering from Dublin and out the next week in the back door and lose on the day to a team in same league division as them. That helps no one within that county, players or supporters enthusiasm to go watch them.
As I said play the knockout tournament as well, straight knockout draw. Then all teams will still have an opportunity to meet one of the bigger teams.

AFM

Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 04:18:18 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!

Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.

trailer

Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 04:18:18 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!

Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.

It was 1-16 to 0-5 at HT. They were well beaten by 14 points after Tyrone made a host of changes. 2-23 to 2-9



BennyCake

Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???

Look-Up!

Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

BennyCake

Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isn't it?

Look-Up!

Quote from: five points on February 18, 2020, 04:16:16 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.

Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?
Why the dramatics? To develop the game in the lesser counties money is needed. Pumping money in Dublin GAA has improved them. If by winning the Tier 2 your team costs were covered for the year would this not be a big carrot for teams and massive boost to development in the county to win it both financially and lifting the profile of the team?

Look-Up!

Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.

BennyCake

Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.

Yes, and even they didn't take it seriously!

Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams won't be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams won't.

Look-Up!

Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:19:23 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.

Yes, and even they didn't take it seriously!

Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams won't be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams won't.
Don't really want to get into a big discussion over it Benny. I f*****g hate the Super 8s and the whole concept. Not gone on backdoor either in a championship so was just stating what I'd like to see. I understand the money men in the GAA would let it happen only over their dead bodies.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.

five points

Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.

Rossfan

The criteria used to change nearly every year.
I recall Ros losing a TM Cup game to Cyaaaavan in Breffni...possibly 2006.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM