The DUP thread

[trailer]

How do we get to the stage  where  it's agreed that no one party    can collapse the  executive?

Does all parties have  to actually  be sitting  in the assembly  ,  and take a vote   to  agree  the reform? 

Can  the British/Irish governments go over the  executive 's heads and just announce that  we are  doing this?

Or do all  parties and both governments have to  actually sit down  again and  basically thrash out a new  GFA?

You need a new GFA. They didn't think about everything.

Someone needs to tell the DUP to GFY.

25 years ago no one would have thought that you didn't want to help govern the place. SF used the loophole first and monkey see, monkey do.
People will suffer ultimately, health, education, infrastructure as we can see is unravelling before our eyes.
What is the DUPs endgame? Nothing seems to change for them in relation to the protocol, and the longer they stay away the more difficult it becomes for them to go back.
But we have to remember this is what people want and have voted for. SF's vote went up with their boycott and the DUPs vote is holding up and the policy is popular with its voters. Nobody really cares that Stormont isn't sitting and see no discernible difference in their lives, even though we are being left behind in the UK and Europe.

This is not SF"s fault. Don't forget the SF boycott started over RHI and both Alliance and the SDLP were supportive of SF's position regarding the need for Forster to stand aside given her involvement in the decision making. The nationalist community weighed in behind the Irish Speaking community on the need for respect and an ILA. Poots did a deal with them within a short period only for the DUP to renege on the deal, showing their ongoing disrespect for the Irish/nationalist community. So it is not correct or fair and just lazy analysis to blame SF on the past boycott. This time is different the DUP are boycotting Stormont over issues that are between the UK government and the EU. So the two can not be compared.

The reasons are different. But they are using the exact same mechanism that SF used. Surely you can see that?

I'm not sure how it's relevant that they used the same mechanism? Are you pointing out the flaws in the system? Genuine question.
For me, SF collapsed the assembly as the DUP were governing for themselves and themselves alone. There were many issues around the use of the POC, the Irish langauge act which had already been agreed to be implemented by all parties and the DUP reneged on, the RHI scandal and blatant one sided governance.
SF had my support in collapsing the assembly at that time in protest to DUP blocking everything that didnt suit them.

In this current instance, DUP have collapsed it as the WF doesnt suit them.
So the same mechanism and the same underlying reason.
The difference this time is that the DUP have no support from anyone apart from a portion of their own electorate, which includes the paramilitaries (the real leadership of the DUP). I know many traditional DUP voters who don't agree with the stance, or at least that's what they say. I'd guess they'd still vote DUP.

I don't think if SF had did what they did, the DUP would've have done the same. Leaving aside why SF collapsed the assembly, it gives the DUP cover for their current actions by simply pointing out that SF did the exact same thing. Maybe I am wrong. Who knows. The DUP are useless c***ts for sure.

When MMcG collapsed the Assembly the tagline was no return to the status quo. Fair enough. But then they went back into exactly that. No ILA, Foster FM, and I can't even remember what the 3rd thing was. It was just a waste of time were services suffered. That pissed me off.

[trailer]

Trailer do you think that if SF hadn't done what they did the DUP wouldn't have worked out themselves that they could do this?

They would've known to do it, but it was the nuclear option and they might not have gone through with it. SF's previous gives them cover. It plays great with their base.
"Sticking it to SF. If they can do it so can we. An eye for an eye. Them Republicans won't tell us what to do." blah, blah, blah.

[imtommygunn]

I don't think so tbh. They wouldn't care about going nuclear with or without the cover of that. They always have their default fallback of but what about the ra.

They're slippery enough they'd have found some "reason".

[Applesisapples]

How do we get to the stage  where  it's agreed that no one party    can collapse the  executive?

Does all parties have  to actually  be sitting  in the assembly  ,  and take a vote   to  agree  the reform? 

Can  the British/Irish governments go over the  executive 's heads and just announce that  we are  doing this?

Or do all  parties and both governments have to  actually sit down  again and  basically thrash out a new  GFA?

You need a new GFA. They didn't think about everything.

Someone needs to tell the DUP to GFY.

25 years ago no one would have thought that you didn't want to help govern the place. SF used the loophole first and monkey see, monkey do.
People will suffer ultimately, health, education, infrastructure as we can see is unravelling before our eyes.
What is the DUPs endgame? Nothing seems to change for them in relation to the protocol, and the longer they stay away the more difficult it becomes for them to go back.
But we have to remember this is what people want and have voted for. SF's vote went up with their boycott and the DUPs vote is holding up and the policy is popular with its voters. Nobody really cares that Stormont isn't sitting and see no discernible difference in their lives, even though we are being left behind in the UK and Europe.

This is not SF"s fault. Don't forget the SF boycott started over RHI and both Alliance and the SDLP were supportive of SF's position regarding the need for Forster to stand aside given her involvement in the decision making. The nationalist community weighed in behind the Irish Speaking community on the need for respect and an ILA. Poots did a deal with them within a short period only for the DUP to renege on the deal, showing their ongoing disrespect for the Irish/nationalist community. So it is not correct or fair and just lazy analysis to blame SF on the past boycott. This time is different the DUP are boycotting Stormont over issues that are between the UK government and the EU. So the two can not be compared.

The reasons are different. But they are using the exact same mechanism that SF used. Surely you can see that?

The point I am making is that SF had agreed to go back very quickly under a deal which the DUP reneged on at the behest of loyalist paramilitaries and their fellow travellers, their boycott also was about matters over which Stormont had control. So they are not the same and cannot be conflated and it is lazy analysis to do so.

[Applesisapples]

I don't think so tbh. They wouldn't care about going nuclear with or without the cover of that. They always have their default fallback of but what about the ra.

They're slippery enough they'd have found some "reason".

One thing I learned back in the '80's during Drumcree, is you should never underestimate the willingness of hardcore DUP voters and loyalists to cut off every appendage to spite their face. Even if it causes them to lose everything they own.

[johnnycool]

I don't think so tbh. They wouldn't care about going nuclear with or without the cover of that. They always have their default fallback of but what about the ra.

They're slippery enough they'd have found some "reason".

One thing I learned back in the '80's during Drumcree, is you should never underestimate the willingness of hardcore DUP voters and loyalists to cut off every appendage to spite their face. Even if it causes them to lose everything they own.

Oh so true.

The DUP, Donaldson to be precise is still wrangling for a win of sorts to allow them to save some face and get Stormont up and running as they know it will hurt them long term with the electorate, but he's being undermined by the more vocal in his party but the absurdity of creating these 7 tests and the likes which they're bound to have known the UK government would never meet ranks of stupidity and arrogance of the highest level.

Sitting beside Michelle O'Neill as first minister also doesn't help, but that will be for ELP and not wee Jeffrey if he's still around in the next few months.

They really are badly led ever since Robinson exited the stage for them.

[tbrick18]

DUP really have backed themselves into a corner.
They have gambled that the tories will give them what they want if they collapse Stormont.
It doesnt seem to be working as the tories have just kind of said, leave them to it.

The Tories and the GB public in general couldn't give a toss about this place or the sensitivities of the unionist hard liners.
They will see a financial cost....that's it. Would they be happy cutting that cost off?

I don't see a way back for the DUP without losing face and probably leadership again. By changing leadership they could go back in and put all the blame on wee jeff. They'd need to do it quickly though to allow a settling in period before the next round of elections.

The days of unionist dominance over all are over and they still have not been able to accept that, and I dont know why.
What's the worst that could happen for them? They country is run by a governement sitting in Dublin, but they can still be British, sing to the queen/king, march around bonfires, etc. They might get a better set of public services under a dublin government too.

Perhaps the spectre of SF running the country is what terrifies them most.

[seafoid]

DUP really have backed themselves into a corner.
They have gambled that the tories will give them what they want if they collapse Stormont.
It doesnt seem to be working as the tories have just kind of said, leave them to it.

The Tories and the GB public in general couldn't give a toss about this place or the sensitivities of the unionist hard liners.
They will see a financial cost....that's it. Would they be happy cutting that cost off?

I don't see a way back for the DUP without losing face and probably leadership again. By changing leadership they could go back in and put all the blame on wee jeff. They'd need to do it quickly though to allow a settling in period before the next round of elections.

The days of unionist dominance over all are over and they still have not been able to accept that, and I dont know why.
What's the worst that could happen for them? They country is run by a governement sitting in Dublin, but they can still be British, sing to the queen/king, march around bonfires, etc. They might get a better set of public services under a dublin government too.

Perhaps the spectre of SF running the country is what terrifies them most.

The DUP are paranoid. They are terrified of losing control. It would probably indicate to them  that the future of the  North was very uncertain.
SF are as neoliberal as they are. They are far more teddy bear than the Tories.

[imtommygunn]

I don't think so tbh. They wouldn't care about going nuclear with or without the cover of that. They always have their default fallback of but what about the ra.

They're slippery enough they'd have found some "reason".

One thing I learned back in the '80's during Drumcree, is you should never underestimate the willingness of hardcore DUP voters and loyalists to cut off every appendage to spite their face. Even if it causes them to lose everything they own.

Oh so true.

The DUP, Donaldson to be precise is still wrangling for a win of sorts to allow them to save some face and get Stormont up and running as they know it will hurt them long term with the electorate, but he's being undermined by the more vocal in his party but the absurdity of creating these 7 tests and the likes which they're bound to have known the UK government would never meet ranks of stupidity and arrogance of the highest level.

Sitting beside Michelle O'Neill as first minister also doesn't help, but that will be for ELP and not wee Jeffrey if he's still around in the next few months.

They really are badly led ever since Robinson exited the stage for them.

The 7 that started as 5 and will probably grow yet.

There has to be an end line somewhere but their bitterness knows no bounds and really I think that is the main reason they are not in government.

Donaldson is nearly worse than Foster and that is saying something.

[weareros]

The DUP were all set to accept the protocol until they got spooked by Bryson, Allister and LCC. While they are bigots on social issues, Irish culture, they know well the economic benefits of having access to EU for trade. Even Paisley made sure to note the cows were Irish during Foot and Mouth. Sure Poots was writing letters behind the scenes to make sure farmers were still getting EU benefits and was giving out stink about having to compete with cheap Aussie and NZ beef and lamb from Brexit trade deals. He was even having his department build the customs posts which Allister dubbed Poots Posts. He also objected to protection status for Irish Grass Fed Beef in EU because it did not include the 6 counties. He won and now it's 32. They tried to be too clever for their own good instead of being honest with the Unionist electorate that having access to EU trade means some necessary compromises.

[Caesar]

Don't rule out the possibility that the DUP will use the current stalemate to force new negotiations in relation to the governance of the North, which they will use as an opportunity to attempt renegotiation of the GFA. They are running out of moves and are desperate to move the goalposts on a border poll.

[trueblue1234]

Don't rule out the possibility that the DUP will use the current stalemate to force new negotiations in relation to the governance of the North, which they will use as an opportunity to attempt renegotiation of the GFA. They are running out of moves and are desperate to move the goalposts on a border poll.

It shouldn't matter now. They're not in a position of power anymore. They don't hold the majority vote backed up by a sympathetic UK Gov anymore. They squandered their opportunity to try and make an alternative NI a possibility in the long term. Any negotiations they go into now is at a weakened state. They will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into any shared future because as was pointed out to them in the Commons this week, the option they want to return to, isn't there anymore. It's no longer an option. So you have to pick from the available options. And if they don't, it will be forced onto them just like the WF.

[imtommygunn]

They're trying to shift the majority that's required for a UI.

[maddog]

It's all a far cry from milk and two sugars.

[trueblue1234]

They're trying to shift the majority that's required for a UI.

But they won't be able to. It would never be accepted by nationalists. And they swing as much power as Unionists now and their majority will only grow. It's too late to try and force that now. They're in too weak a position.