Religion.

[cash4gold]

Putting aside any belief in God one may hold - with the recent revelations of clerical abuse, the fact that nearly every war was fought over Religion and the fact that people are today killing in the name of one God or another, what do people think of Religion in the world?  Are we better human beings because of these institutions telling us what to think, what is right and wrong, how to live our lives to enjoy eternal salvation!!  Personally I think most are interested only in there own earthly salvation which parishioners or their flock help make very comfortable due to their voluntary work and monetary donations, they also have shown time and time again that they are a haven for very sick and perverted individuals, whether their perversion is child abuse, terrorism or whatever and in most cases these unregulated institutions are beyond reproach.

I would not for one second doubt that many people in many religions are very decent individuals who are "doing God's" work, but if there is a God and you believe that is so; why do you have to be part of some institution to worship him, surely you will be judged on how you lived your life, how you helped others, how you treated people with respect and kindness.  Surely it will not be on how many times you went to mass, going off sweets for lent, bombing people from different religions, inciting hatred to people of different colours and creeds because they don't accept your version what is essentially in all religions a good story!

[T Fearon]

I think you need to have, both a personal relationship with Jesus and also belong to a wider faith community, and enjoy the fellowship of others. The two complement each other.

The problems are invariably caused by fundamentalists and remember we are all human, no one's perfect etc

[JUst retired]

Not even you Tony? My world is shattered.

[mylestheslasher]

Putting aside any belief in God one may hold - with the recent revelations of clerical abuse, the fact that nearly every war was fought over Religion and the fact that people are today killing in the name of one God or another, what do people think of Religion in the world?  Are we better human beings because of these institutions telling us what to think, what is right and wrong, how to live our lives to enjoy eternal salvation!!  Personally I think most are interested only in there own earthly salvation which parishioners or their flock help make very comfortable due to their voluntary work and monetary donations, they also have shown time and time again that they are a haven for very sick and perverted individuals, whether their perversion is child abuse, terrorism or whatever and in most cases these unregulated institutions are beyond reproach.

I would not for one second doubt that many people in many religions are very decent individuals who are "doing God's" work, but if there is a God and you believe that is so; why do you have to be part of some institution to worship him, surely you will be judged on how you lived your life, how you helped others, how you treated people with respect and kindness.  Surely it will not be on how many times you went to mass, going off sweets for lent, bombing people from different religions, inciting hatred to people of different colours and creeds because they don't accept your version what is essentially in all religions a good story!

What you said in Bold would be my opinion too. Mass religion is a scourge in the world and I can't understand why people can't take a step back and think about whether it is Jesus/God they worship or the Pope/Bishop or Priest. I think this is even more surprising when you consider what the catholic church in this country has done of late re child abuse how there are a core element that will defend it to the ends of the earth.

[T Fearon]

The core element will defend the Church but not errant priests/bishops etc. There is a difference.

As I said previously there is a need for a personal relationship, but membership of a wider communion can help that personal relationship, through fellowship, communal worship and reminder of true theology etc, otherwise left to one's own devices you can go off the straight and narrow

[ziggysego]

The core element will defend the Church but not errant priests/bishops etc. There is a difference.

As I said previously there is a need for a personal relationship, but membership of a wider communion can help that personal relationship, through fellowship, communal worship and reminder of true theology etc, otherwise left to one's own devices you can go off the straight and narrow

Oh Good Lord, I find myself agreeing with Tony. I feel sick

[mylestheslasher]

The core element will defend the Church but not errant priests/bishops etc. There is a difference.

As I said previously there is a need for a personal relationship, but membership of a wider communion can help that personal relationship, through fellowship, communal worship and reminder of true theology etc, otherwise left to one's own devices you can go off the straight and narrow

Oh Good Lord, I find myself agreeing with Tony. I feel sick

I'm sorry Ziggy but if you agree with Tony then I totally disagree with you. Tony has just pretty much demonstrated exactly what is wrong with people today. The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

[upmonaghansayswe]

the fact that nearly every war was fought over Religion and the fact that people are today killing in the name of one God or another, what do people think of Religion in the world?

Keeps the poulation down.!

[Zapatista]

Anyone who believes most wars are fought over reliigon are more a part of the problem than they are the solution.

The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

As did the state as did many influential Irish people and organisations at the time.

This didn't only go right to the top of the Church this was a part of Irish life through church, state, home and school life. However, the church and the state were best placed to stop it and didn't.

[mylestheslasher]

Anyone who believes most wars are fought over reliigon are more a part of the problem than they are the solution.

The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

As did the state as did many influential Irish people and organisations at the time.

This didn't only go right to the top of the Church this was a part of Irish life through church, state, home and school life. However, the church and the state were best placed to stop it and didn't.

Do you have any evidence that the notion of widespread child abuse within the catholic church was reported to say TD's or An Taoiseach? Granted individual Gardai did not act, mainly as they saw the bishop as a higher authority than the state. Where the state failed is they allowed a situation to exist where the catholic church wielded more power than they did.

[gallsman]

The core element will defend the Church but not errant priests/bishops etc. There is a difference.

Surely it was the church as an institution that allowed certain priests to continue to work in positions with access to children though?

Why would anyone defend such an institution?

[Zapatista]

I don't. I never mentioned TD's.

The Catholic Church and the State tweedledum and tweedledee.

[Bogball XV]

Anyone who believes most wars are fought over reliigon are more a part of the problem than they are the solution.

The catholic church has pedalled the notion that it is "errant priests/bishops" that are the problem and people who want to believe that, in the direct opposition to all the evidence, will believe it. That is what is wrong and all you have to do is read the Murphy report and you'll see clearly the cover ups that went on right all the way to the top. The institution of the catholic church covered up the rape of children and continues to act like it was something small. Even the papal nuncio wouldn't cooperate with a commission in the country to which he is an ambassador. Anyone willing to accept the  "couple of errant Priests" line is the core of people I spoke about above.

As did the state as did many influential Irish people and organisations at the time.

This didn't only go right to the top of the Church this was a part of Irish life through church, state, home and school life. However, the church and the state were best placed to stop it and didn't.

Do you have any evidence that the notion of widespread child abuse within the catholic church was reported to say TD's or An Taoiseach? Granted individual Gardai did not act, mainly as they saw the bishop as a higher authority than the state. Where the state failed is they allowed a situation to exist where the catholic church wielded more power than they did.

the state was at least and bad and imo worse than the church, all the reports allude to the fact that the state knew what was going on in the various church run institutions, but the state seemed to think that it was good enough for working class children.

[Zapatista]

the state was at least and bad and imo worse than the church, all the reports allude to the fact that the state knew what was going on in the various church run institutions, but the state seemed to think that it was good enough for working class children.

I don't  think they were worse or better. To put it in today's context I suppose you could compare the set up to the relationship the state, the builders and the banks have now. They are different but not really.

I suppose you could add to that that we always knew there was something very wrong going on in those sectors.

[delboy]

Putting aside any belief in God one may hold - with the recent revelations of clerical abuse, the fact that nearly every war was fought over Religion and the fact that people are today killing in the name of one God or another, what do people think of Religion in the world?  Are we better human beings because of these institutions telling us what to think, what is right and wrong, how to live our lives to enjoy eternal salvation!!  Personally I think most are interested only in there own earthly salvation which parishioners or their flock help make very comfortable due to their voluntary work and monetary donations, they also have shown time and time again that they are a haven for very sick and perverted individuals, whether their perversion is child abuse, terrorism or whatever and in most cases these unregulated institutions are beyond reproach.

I would not for one second doubt that many people in many religions are very decent individuals who are "doing God's" work, but if there is a God and you believe that is so; why do you have to be part of some institution to worship him, surely you will be judged on how you lived your life, how you helped others, how you treated people with respect and kindness.  Surely it will not be on how many times you went to mass, going off sweets for lent, bombing people from different religions, inciting hatred to people of different colours and creeds because they don't accept your version what is essentially in all religions a good story!

What you said in Bold would be my opinion too. Mass religion is a scourge in the world and I can't understand why people can't take a step back and think about whether it is Jesus/God they worship or the Pope/Bishop or Priest. I think this is even more surprising when you consider what the catholic church in this country has done of late re child abuse how there are a core element that will defend it to the ends of the earth.

+1, so far it seems the justification for the church on this thread boils down to some people can't trust themselves 'to be left to their own devices' to do the right thing in the first place and need to be kept on the 'straight and narrow'. Is the church some sort of counselling service for sociopaths