China Coronavirus

[Seaney]

You are answering questions not even asked, are you a shinner, so the to aid the NHS you would have been happy enough had all your fathers treatment been cancelled?

I'd be disappointed, like I'm disappointed that he's unwell, but I can't blame the NHS for that

So like myself you wouldn't be happy enough, took us a while but we got there.  The thing is thankfully for your father and yourself and wider family didn't go have to go through it, else I feel that disappointment would be somewhat more than disappointment.

[Seaney]

And differs from calling someone a sociopath because they don't follow your narrative - how?

But proposing a massive increase in death and the overwhelming of the health system is sociopathic!

Own it

There's no need to be politically correct here - just honest

Honesty is the best policy and the stance of you and Fulvio is fundamentally dishonest

It's a feelings over facts, fantasy over reality mindset

There's simply no arguing with that

Any quotes here again, also why do you leave a line between each sentence, I did that primary school so the teacher could write in corrections, is this the level you are at in your profession, no wonder they won't give you a laptop.

[GetOverTheBar]

Are we ready to talk about mask ineffectiveness (when you don't bother to do the rest) yet?

I think Angelo Seaney and Sid should head to Cookstown and sort this out! Preferably with no masks on and hang around indoors

PPV stuff. GAA Board meet up turns into bloody gangwar.

[sid waddell]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

I agree with you here Naka, there are valid points on either side and im pretty torn and in fact most people I chat to are torn and ive actually seen quite a shift towards the thinking of Angelo in the last few weeks with lot of ones saying about mental health over the winter etc, the problem with this thread is the valid points on both sides are being over shadowed by personal attacks which is a shame because a lot of posters on both sides of the debate have points worth noting and discussing

There is a tendency in a lot of humans, when confronted with a horrible reality, to turn to towards simplistic, easy answers

It's why, for instance, peddlers of homeopathy are able to prey on people with terminal cancer and their families

The "open it up" mob like Sunetra Gupta and the so called "Great Barrington Declaration" people are the Covid equivalent of quacks making a quick buck off the terminally ill

[sid waddell]

So this is happening now - the owner of this nursing home was on Liveline this afternoon - the situation is appalling - it is not her fault, it is a pandemic problem

But still the fantasy that the vulnerable can be protected while the virus runs rampant through the rest of the population persists

But the real world doesn't care about feelings and fantasies

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/we-feel-totally-abandoned-nursing-home-owners-plea-for-help-from-hse-as-majority-of-residents-and-staff-test-positive-for-covid-19-39655652.html

[APM]

So this is happening now - the owner of this nursing home was on Liveline this afternoon - the situation is appalling - it is not her fault, it is a pandemic problem

But still the fantasy that the vulnerable can be protected while the virus runs rampant through the rest of the population persists

But the real world doesn't care about feelings and fantasies

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/we-feel-totally-abandoned-nursing-home-owners-plea-for-help-from-hse-as-majority-of-residents-and-staff-test-positive-for-covid-19-39655652.html

Spot on. People saying old and vulnerable people should shield. They cannot live in a vacuum. 
There is a serious amount of selfishness going about.

[Seaney]

So this is happening now - the owner of this nursing home was on Liveline this afternoon - the situation is appalling - it is not her fault, it is a pandemic problem

But still the fantasy that the vulnerable can be protected while the virus runs rampant through the rest of the population persists

But the real world doesn't care about feelings and fantasies

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/we-feel-totally-abandoned-nursing-home-owners-plea-for-help-from-hse-as-majority-of-residents-and-staff-test-positive-for-covid-19-39655652.html

Spot on. People saying old and vulnerable people should shield. They cannot live in a vacuum. 
There is a serious amount of selfishness going about.

Agree those poor sods locked in a violent relationship should suck it up and order more bandages and make up, those poor sods losing jobs, livelihoods, family, friends, their mind should get the kettle on and think they are lucky.  Those poor kids with learning difficulties, missing out on the interaction of loved ones should count their blessings, you are right there is a serious amount of selfishness going on, I get the feeling you ain't suffered too much personally through this last 8 months!

[sid waddell]

So this is happening now - the owner of this nursing home was on Liveline this afternoon - the situation is appalling - it is not her fault, it is a pandemic problem

But still the fantasy that the vulnerable can be protected while the virus runs rampant through the rest of the population persists

But the real world doesn't care about feelings and fantasies

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/we-feel-totally-abandoned-nursing-home-owners-plea-for-help-from-hse-as-majority-of-residents-and-staff-test-positive-for-covid-19-39655652.html

Spot on. People saying old and vulnerable people should shield. They cannot live in a vacuum. 
There is a serious amount of selfishness going about.

Agree those poor sods locked in a violent relationship should suck it up and order more bandages and make up, those poor sods losing jobs, livelihoods, family, friends, their mind should get the kettle on and think they are lucky.  Those poor kids with learning difficulties, missing out on the interaction of loved ones should count their blessings, you are right there is a serious amount of selfishness going on, I get the feeling you ain't suffered too much personally through this last 8 months!

Of course if we just "let people live™" like you want, all our problems will magically go away!

Forget nuance and complex problems - simplistic, easy answers and sloganeering will solve everything!

[Seaney]

Good to see you have dropped the let it rip lie, but still using the spaces between lines - we will get you there, I know it will be slowly but maybe that's why the work laptop hasn't arrived.

[sid waddell]

Good to see you have dropped the let it rip lie, but still using the spaces between lines - we will get you there, I know it will be slowly but maybe that's why the work laptop hasn't arrived.

I have no idea what you're on about as regards laptop computers, what a very strange thing to say

I've asked you this several times and each time you've refused point blank to answer - what does "let people live™" mean if it doesn't mean let it rip?

People are actually living at the moment, the sun rises in the morning, the situation we're in is not great but the reality of life is that it throws very difficult situations at us from time to time

Sadly I don't believe you're capable of answering this question as it appears to me you haven't thought your stance through at all and only deal in vacuous slogans

There's a lot of this sort of noise you're emitting about on the internet at the moment and it is making any sort of reasoned debate impossible

[naka]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

Anecdotes are not data

Are there in depth investigations or studies into how Covid is affecting the treatment of non-Covid patients with serious conditions

Are there in depth studies into mental health

If there are, let's see them

Because nobody who thinks Level 5 is necessary thinks there are no negative effects of that

The point is, people who realise Level 5 is necessary realise those negative effects would be greatly amplified by just continuing to let virus spread increase

There are some people here who simply are not living in the real world

Sid  I didn't pick sides
Look at bbc website 100 cancer operations alone in Belfast region pushed back
Close friends of My family have cancer treatments pushed back also
It's a shit show
There are arguments on both side

[sid waddell]

It's possible to see both sides of the argument here. Sid's view is that without what Angelo would describe as covid-vision the virus would spread rapidly as it is doing now*. Whereas Angelo's is that if covid-vision hadn't been the be all and end all, his uncle, Lord have mercy on him, would have received proper care.

I offer my deepest condolences to you Angelo on the death of your uncle and Hound on the death of his relative too.

*Fortunately so far the death toll hasn't reached the heights of the spring.

Thanks.

His illness was likely terminal in any case but it does highlight the dangers of what can happen when Covid becomes the only show in town. What about the number of people out there with undiagnosed cancer and other life threatening illnesses? They are being left behind by the health service as Covid is the only illness that matters. In my uncle's case he lived his life, he got to saw his children grow up, he got to see his grandchildren being born but there are plenty of people now in their 30s/40s/50s who will die from cancer and the likes as a result of resources being centred solely on Covid.

Some of the vicious attacks I have had on here, where my views have completely misrepresented, where I have had words put in my mouth and accusations about wanting people are quite frankly disgraceful.

There needs to be a discussion about the overall impacts of lockdowns but if you dare bring that into the spotlight a number of posters will try and bury you with hysteria and misinformation.

to be fair Angelo you raise valid points on the virus.
its becoming clear that a fair few deaths are happening alongside the virus due to the closure of surgerys/hospitals focussed on the virus etc
we are in a mess because quite simply the health services are not fit for purpose through underfunding
there is no right and wrong but definitely both sides have strong arguments

Anecdotes are not data

Are there in depth investigations or studies into how Covid is affecting the treatment of non-Covid patients with serious conditions

Are there in depth studies into mental health

If there are, let's see them

Because nobody who thinks Level 5 is necessary thinks there are no negative effects of that

The point is, people who realise Level 5 is necessary realise those negative effects would be greatly amplified by just continuing to let virus spread increase

There are some people here who simply are not living in the real world

Sid  I didn't pick sides
Look at bbc website 100 cancer operations alone in Belfast region pushed back
Close friends of My family have cancer treatments pushed back also
It's a shit show
There are arguments on both side

Who among those who are arguing here that Level 5 restrictions are necessary and that the virus cannot be allowed to grow in spread, is arguing for cancer treatment to be denied to people?

Nobody

Your argument is with health administration and government, not with me

However the inescapable implication coming from those who are arguing that we should not impose restrictions to halt the spread of Covid, is that cancer treatment would be superior in a scenario where there was more Covid

There is no tenable argument that says this is remotely plausible

It is simply wrong

[Angelo]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

He would have been diagnosed months ago had the whole health service not been consumed by Covid.

The way things have gone, unless you have Covid you are not priority, it does not matter the seriousness of graveness of your ailment - Covid takes precedent.

If Hound wants to take snide shots like that then maybe he should be prepared that ask people who have lost loved ones or suffered hardship as a result of actions made to curb Covid.

Answer the question

Are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

I'm saying people like my uncle were cast aside by the health service because their ailments were not Covid related.

You have a few questions of your own that you have point blank refused to answer, unlike you I'm not a coward who runs away from them.

You haven't answered the question

The clear implication of your argument is that cancer treatment would be superior if the virus spread was allowed to increase

But this is obviously totally false

It seems your whole stance is based on magical thinking - let's pretend there's not a pandemic

When you're stumped, you just resort to insults

It's very telling

I've addressed the question.

My uncle did not get the care he should have, he was cast aside when he was in grave health situation because his ailment was not Covid related.

He should have been diagnosed and treated months ago, instead he was only admitted to hospital when his health hit a grave situation and was told at that points he had weeks to live, he was let home with a morphine drip to die.

He was a consequence of the strategy to made Covid front, right and centre. You asked a loaded question I addressed it, a loaded question that relates personally to me and the situation of my family. I brought it up so I am not going to get upset about this avenue.

Now I've asked you plenty of important questions on multiples occasions and you have refused to answer them, refused to address them, completely ignored them. That says a lot about your cowardice.

You made the implication that cancer patients would get better care if there was more Covid around rather than less

But that's wrong, it's obviously wrong, it's completely wrong

You still haven't addressed this

You're also speculating that your uncle's care was inadequate

We'd need to have the case file examined by an expert to make a determination on that

I'm not here to be a spokesperson for the NI NHS though

Once again, you can not deal with the truth.

The implication I made was that my uncle had serious need for medical attention but he was abandoned by the health system as Covid took priority. That is exactly and what I said and you can continue to try and go and manipulate the circumstances of his death and try and twist my words to say something I haven't but that says more about you.

What's wrong is that you are incapable of dealing with the truth, it's my fault for putting it out in the public domain but shame on you for trying to twist facts on the death of a relative of mine.

Like the coward you are you have still failed to address questions posed to you, one might say you are the real sociopath here.

You still haven't answered the question

Are you saying your uncle would have got better treatment in a situation where there was more Covid?

You can bluster all you like with Jack Nicholson impressions and continue shrieking insults but it's still not an answer

I've addressed the question three times now.

Unlike you, I'm not a coward and and unlike you, I'm not a sociopath.

You haven't addressed it

Now you're trying to weasel out of answering through sheer weight of blusterous posting

Three times and yet you continue to ask a loaded question about a relative of mine who died.

My fault for bringing it up but you are a sewer rat.

Calling somebody a sewer rat in response to a legitimate question is not an argument and only says anything about your character

You have had your answer three times, you have attempted to ask a loaded question involving the death of a relative. You don't happen to like that answer because it doesn't fit in with your twisted logic. You don't have the balls or moral courage to address a straight forward question I put to you on numerous, occasions - we both know you are too much of a coward to actually answer that.

Sewer rat is too decent a term for you.

You have gotten your answer, you have gotten it three times so how about you show some respect.

[Rossfan]

Hardstation has outlined it well as I did many pages back.
More Covid = less other ailments being treated/operated on.
Anyone that can't understand that is either a THICK ******* **** or a Gemmariod tin foil hatter.

[sid waddell]

Angelo whether you're right or wrong doesn't overly matter here. Not to me anyway.

You're absolutely correct to probe the preconceived concepts, lazy thinking, and in some cases sheer zealotry of contributors.

The number of hugely intolerant replies you've faced - especially those that wish to decry you as an idiot for maintaining an open mind - is completely out of order.

But for God's sake, please do everyone a favour and stop posting the same f**king post in a slightly reworded way, every few hours.

This thread is now unbearable to read. And it's mostly on you.

But wobbler, maybe he just is an idiot?

Not just because he has different views. You have different views on this to many of us and you're not an idiot. You can debate reasonably. But it's obvious the difference between your posts and his posts.
Have you seen him on other threads?

I do take it personally. I think many of the deniers just don't know anyone who's been hit with it. But that's no excuse, as many of the people who take it seriously don't know anyone hit badly by it. But I have a relation who was killed by it, another in her 30s who has lung scarring because of it and 6 months later still has serious respiratory issues when doing any kind of exercise, and finally someone who has developed Parkinson's post Covid. So I take it personally.

The other muppet doesn't even know how a discussion board works. 40 people disagree with him, so 40 replies are needed. Jeez Louise. 🙄

This is the type of snide piece of shit response you get here.

We can all play victim bingo. There are plenty of victims of lockdown, plenty of people who have been harmed mentally, socially, physically - vulnerable people. But hey, f**k them right.

What makes the people you know so much more important than all those victims?

I had a 77 year old uncle pass away 4 weeks ago. He had cancer in remission, he had been failing badly for a number of months but wasn't seen to. About 6 weeks ago he was admitted to hospital and was told he had weeks to live. He's another victim of lockdown.

So spare me your f**king conceited arrogance.

Sorry to hear about your uncle

But are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

Because that's what you're strongly implying

He would have been diagnosed months ago had the whole health service not been consumed by Covid.

The way things have gone, unless you have Covid you are not priority, it does not matter the seriousness of graveness of your ailment - Covid takes precedent.

If Hound wants to take snide shots like that then maybe he should be prepared that ask people who have lost loved ones or suffered hardship as a result of actions made to curb Covid.

Answer the question

Are you saying that if the spread of the virus had been much more extensive than it was, your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

I'm saying people like my uncle were cast aside by the health service because their ailments were not Covid related.

You have a few questions of your own that you have point blank refused to answer, unlike you I'm not a coward who runs away from them.

You haven't answered the question

The clear implication of your argument is that cancer treatment would be superior if the virus spread was allowed to increase

But this is obviously totally false

It seems your whole stance is based on magical thinking - let's pretend there's not a pandemic

When you're stumped, you just resort to insults

It's very telling

I've addressed the question.

My uncle did not get the care he should have, he was cast aside when he was in grave health situation because his ailment was not Covid related.

He should have been diagnosed and treated months ago, instead he was only admitted to hospital when his health hit a grave situation and was told at that points he had weeks to live, he was let home with a morphine drip to die.

He was a consequence of the strategy to made Covid front, right and centre. You asked a loaded question I addressed it, a loaded question that relates personally to me and the situation of my family. I brought it up so I am not going to get upset about this avenue.

Now I've asked you plenty of important questions on multiples occasions and you have refused to answer them, refused to address them, completely ignored them. That says a lot about your cowardice.

You made the implication that cancer patients would get better care if there was more Covid around rather than less

But that's wrong, it's obviously wrong, it's completely wrong

You still haven't addressed this

You're also speculating that your uncle's care was inadequate

We'd need to have the case file examined by an expert to make a determination on that

I'm not here to be a spokesperson for the NI NHS though

Once again, you can not deal with the truth.

The implication I made was that my uncle had serious need for medical attention but he was abandoned by the health system as Covid took priority. That is exactly and what I said and you can continue to try and go and manipulate the circumstances of his death and try and twist my words to say something I haven't but that says more about you.

What's wrong is that you are incapable of dealing with the truth, it's my fault for putting it out in the public domain but shame on you for trying to twist facts on the death of a relative of mine.

Like the coward you are you have still failed to address questions posed to you, one might say you are the real sociopath here.

You still haven't answered the question

Are you saying your uncle would have got better treatment in a situation where there was more Covid?

You can bluster all you like with Jack Nicholson impressions and continue shrieking insults but it's still not an answer

I've addressed the question three times now.

Unlike you, I'm not a coward and and unlike you, I'm not a sociopath.

You haven't addressed it

Now you're trying to weasel out of answering through sheer weight of blusterous posting

Three times and yet you continue to ask a loaded question about a relative of mine who died.

My fault for bringing it up but you are a sewer rat.

Calling somebody a sewer rat in response to a legitimate question is not an argument and only says anything about your character

You have had your answer three times, you have attempted to ask a loaded question involving the death of a relative. You don't happen to like that answer because it doesn't fit in with your twisted logic. You don't have the balls or moral courage to address a straight forward question I put to you on numerous, occasions - we both know you are too much of a coward to actually answer that.

Sewer rat is too decent a term for you.

You have gotten your answer, you have gotten it three times so how about you show some respect.

I'm sorry but your responses have been utterly ignorant

Again, the question was: If the virus spread had been more extensive than it was, would your uncle would have received better cancer treatment?

You didn't answer

The right answer is no, he wouldn't

And if the virus continues to spread more extensively, cancer treatment will get worse

You clearly want a scenario where the virus is allowed to spread more extensively

In that scenario, there would be more people whose cancer treatment suffers

Having had a relative die from cancer recently, I cannot believe that you want a scenario where an increased amount of people have to suffer from poor cancer treatment

It's quite shocking