Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

Showed your colours there boy

[Angelo]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

Showed your colours there boy

I note you haven't addressed the question.

[sid waddell]

Whether the SDLP could have achieved civil rights we'll never know.

The SDLP did achieve civil rights

[sid waddell]

Sid's point about it becoming less justified after they couldn't win is redundant - neither the old IRA, nor PIRA nor the dissidents ever had any chance of winning in any conventional understanding of the word. .

But the old IRA did win

They achieved an independent Irish state

The PIRA lost

They did not achieve what they wanted

[sid waddell]

Just answer the question Sid.

If someone who believes the PIRA campaign in general was justifiable, and that to you means they therefore must view the Enniskillen bomb attack as justifiable, then since you believe the Old IRA campaign on the whole was justifiable, surely we can assume that you regard the Dunmanway Massacre as justifiable?

I don't regard the Dunmanway massacre as justifiable in any way

I have a very dim view of war in general and I have no interest whatsoever in glorifying the War of Independence

Sinn Fein do glorify the 28 year PIRA campaign, they continue to glorify it, many posters here glorify it

You are deliberately trying to blur the lines between war and isolated actions within a war. You have all along implied that if you agreed with the PIRA campaign, that you must therefore believe all actions they carried out during that campaign were justifiable.

I'm merely trying to follow your own logic here. If you believe the Dunmanway Massacre was unjustifiable, by your own terms you must surely then regard the entire Old IRA campaign as unjustifiable? You can't have it both ways here.

Similarly, you say that the PIRA campaign was unjustifiable "because civilian slaughter was an integral part of that campaign", then, given that civilian slaughter was an even more prevelant aspect of the Old IRA campaign, can we assume, again, that you regard the Old IRA campaign as unjustifiable? Again, you can't have it both ways.

Again, you're totally deflecting - I'm not the person glorifying killing people, you and the likes of Angelo are

Youse are the people that have to answer the questions

The IRA killed 644 civilians

They killed 638 British Army or UDR

They killed a miserly 28 Loyalists - the very people who were terrorising their communities

So tell us again how they were "protecting their communities"?

They were in me hole protecting their communities, they were sucking them into a three decades long spiral of death and destruction

Pied pipers

You don't really know much about the north really.

Loyalists, aided and abetted by the UDR/RUC, terrorised the nationalist community.

I see you take the same view as Fianna Gael.

How is killing 644 civilians and 28 Loyalists "protecting your communities"?

The PIRA killed more PIRA people than they killed Loyalists

[sid waddell]

Thomas Begley killed himself, one UDA member and eight civilians going about their business

So one of the 28 Loyalists killed by the IRA was killed by Begley

How would Begley be viewed among Sinn Fein supporters?

Would he be viewed as a hero for killing the UDA man?

Or would the killing of the eight civilians cancel that out and then drive him into the villain column?

Or would youse say the killing of the eight civilians was bad - but not enough to wipe out the "good deed" of the killing of the UDA man, leaving him in credit overall and thus worthy of celebration?

Maybe there might yet be a book about him in the bookshop in Parnell Square "Thomas Begley - The Good, The Bad And The Ugly"?

[Franko]

A lot more waffle but he still hasn't condemned the actions of the old IRA I see...

We wait with baited breath

[sid waddell]

The total denial of the media and governments as to what was happening also fuelled the anger and sense of inequality. The dogs on the street knew British security forces were in collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries but to say this to most people from the Free State until only very recently they would laugh in your face. To say it to an English person they would have you committed. Media spin is a powerful thing.

Utter nonsense

People in the Republic long believed there was Loyalist/British collusion, especially as the single most devastating event of the entire Troubles took place in the Republic

[Rossfan]

Sid's point about it becoming less justified after they couldn't win is redundant - neither the old IRA, nor PIRA nor the dissidents ever had any chance of winning in any conventional understanding of the word. .

But the old IRA did win

They achieved an independent Irish state

The PIRA lost

They did not achieve what they wanted

The 1919 -21 IRA won if you consider forcing the Brits into changing a Home Rule "Southern Ireland" into a self Governing Dominion called The Irish Free State.
Unlike the 1970 -2005 IRA they had agents on the inside in Dublin Castle and their Informer hunters weren't the Chief Informer.
The 1922-23 IRA were well beaten in the Civil War

On this anniversary of the  Derrada murders I still can't see how Gary Sheehan RIP and Patrick Kelly RIP were oppressors of Northern Catholic/Nationalists.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

Showed your colours there boy

I note you haven't addressed the question.

You are basically admitting that the structure and leadership of IRA was so poor that they could not even keep hoods never mind MI5 out, anyhow I'm sure many of the families who suffered the death of their family members as part of thia dirty war will be glad you are classing them as hoods. Yes and as you said we were outmuscled intellectually and in every other way which left us with very little chance to turn the tables

[sid waddell]

A lot more waffle but he still hasn't condemned the actions of the old IRA I see...

We wait with baited breath

It's hilarious how Northern Catholics who are living with an irreconcilable sense of cognitive dissonance over the PIRA campaign always reach for the whataboutery

They can't debate on the PIRA campaign, they refuse to debate

The old IRA did plenty of horrible things, but they had an actual clear strategy to win, and win they did

That's a key part of the morality of waging a war

The PIRA had no strategy other than nihilism

They lost, they lost pretty much right away, but they still carried on for three decades

Say what you want about the old IRA but their war produced a society which at least had the chance to move forward within a short time

The PIRA, like UNITA in Angola, produced a society which was set back decades

[Angelo]

A lot more waffle but he still hasn't condemned the actions of the old IRA I see...

We wait with baited breath

That's because he's the only poster on here who justifies the killings of civilians.

[Angelo]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

Showed your colours there boy

I note you haven't addressed the question.

You are basically admitting that the structure and leadership of IRA was so poor that they could not even keep hoods never mind MI5 out, anyhow I'm sure many of the families who suffered the death of their family members as part of thia dirty war will be glad you are classing them as hoods. Yes and as you said we were outmuscled intellectually and in every other way which left us with very little chance to turn the tables

How would I know whether they did or not? I never said that and I wouldn't know. We do know that British intelligence recruited hoods to join the IRA and were able to turn high ranking members like Scappaticci.

And you still haven't answered my question.

[sid waddell]

A lot more waffle but he still hasn't condemned the actions of the old IRA I see...

We wait with baited breath

That's because he's the only poster on here who justifies the killings of civilians.

This is quite the laugh

Angelo, who knows no other method of debate other than lying, has now backed himself into admitting he would have rathered the 26 counties remained part of the UK in 1922 

Hilarious

[sid waddell]

The IRA was infiltrated at every level right to the very top. We never managed to turn one Brit.
We achieved civil rights, not on the back of IRA violence however, we owe more to john Hume probably for that.
SF became SDLP other than sticking to abstentionism.
We still dont have a UI and maybe only stand a better chance ironically on the back of Brexit - SF were always anti-EU up to 3 years ago

Spin masters are good within SF, i will give them that.

Why would you need to turn any Brits when you're Infiltrated at every level up to the top from the 70s onwards and still able to blow up the city of London.

That was a good operation but to say we blew up the city of London is a stretch, my point on the Brits is that they never embarrassed themselves by switching sides

How would that work?

The Brits were able to infiltrate hoods to join the Provos or they were able to threathen with prison sentences or through other state branches.

The Provos on the other hand were an outlawed paramilitary organisation for an oppressed minority community. Tell me how getting Brits to switch sides would work?

Showed your colours there boy

I note you haven't addressed the question.

You are basically admitting that the structure and leadership of IRA was so poor that they could not even keep hoods never mind MI5 out, anyhow I'm sure many of the families who suffered the death of their family members as part of thia dirty war will be glad you are classing them as hoods. Yes and as you said we were outmuscled intellectually and in every other way which left us with very little chance to turn the tables

How would I know whether they did or not? I never said that and I wouldn't know. We do know that British intelligence recruited hoods to join the IRA and were able to turn high ranking members like Scappaticci.

And you still haven't answered my question.

Poor old Angelo

As well as vainly trying to distinguish between the "good" acts of the PIRA and the "bad" acts - which often overlapped - he now has to try and distinguish between the Irish PIRA and the British PIRA, who were and mostly remain indistinguishable from each other

The most hated of all species was the "tout", the PIRA man who was working for the Brits on the inside

But the guy tasked with the job of outing the "touts" was a tout himself, and what's more, he was an Italian

What a joke shop, you couldn't make it up

The PIRA really should have just given up and opened a giant hall of mirrors as a museum of their campaign