A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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vallankumous

Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 01:00:05 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

What would be the point in being an EU citizen if you are politically outside the EU?
For example. is there any extra benefit to being an EU citizen than being a British citizen if you lived in Canada?

In canada no but travelling within europe, yes

Do you think it will change for British citizens? The EU would be as crazy as I sometimes say they are if they decide to downgrade the status of a traveling Brit. Every bit as Crazy as it would be for the Brits to downgrade the status of EU citizens within it's borders.

muppet

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:01:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:57:03 PM


Ah right. The Tony Fearon Principle.

So...

1) tell the politicians to do nothing

and

2) blame politicians you don't like for doing nothing.

Not at all.

1. There is no lack of leadership in the UK. It has it's leaders and will have leaders in the future too.
We can pretend they don't but I'd rather not pretend.

2. The politicians will do what they do, that hasn't changed and won't change.
My point is we should not be demanding change and setting up groups when as yet nothing has happened and as is likely nothing will happen.

Are you serious?

I think you are stuck very deeply in the denial phase regarding what has happened. Britain is in a level of political chaos not seen for decades. The EU is only marginally better off.

There are those who know when there is an opportunity to make ground in such circumstances and there are those who will look at the headlights.

Sadly, looking at the composition of the Dáil, I think we will keep looking at the headlights and wait for something to happen.

MWWSI 2017

smelmoth

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:04:12 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 01:00:05 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

What would be the point in being an EU citizen if you are politically outside the EU?
For example. is there any extra benefit to being an EU citizen than being a British citizen if you lived in Canada?

In canada no but travelling within europe, yes

Do you think it will change for British citizens? The EU would be as crazy as I sometimes say they are if they decide to downgrade the status of a traveling Brit. Every bit as Crazy as it would be for the Brits to downgrade the status of EU citizens within it's borders.

Its a simple question of customs and passport control. Today as an eu citizen I walk through these processes in EU pairports. Anybody with a UK but not an Irish passport will not have this luxury going forward. They will still get in (unless they have some criminal record) but its just more hassle

vallankumous

Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 01:08:11 PM


Its a simple question of customs and passport control. Today as an eu citizen I walk through these processes in EU passports. Anybody with a UK but not an Irish passport will not have this luxury going forward. They will still get in (unless they have some criminal record) but its just more hassle

That's easy to fix. Put up a sign that says, EU & British Passport Holders Queue Here.

smelmoth

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:10:15 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 01:08:11 PM


Its a simple question of customs and passport control. Today as an eu citizen I walk through these processes in EU passports. Anybody with a UK but not an Irish passport will not have this luxury going forward. They will still get in (unless they have some criminal record) but its just more hassle

That's easy to fix. Put up a sign that says, EU & British Passport Holders Queue Here.

Put that up for discussion in UK and EU?

If the brexiteers don't achieve some degree of border control there will be an outcry. If they do achieve it you think the EU will not reciprocate? You think they will leave this open for any other country that exists?

muppet

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

What would be the point in being an EU citizen if you are politically outside the EU?
For example. is there any extra benefit to being an EU citizen than being a British citizen if you lived in Canada?

You can work without a visa in 26 more countries.
You have access to social security in 26 more countries.
You are eligible for the same healthcare and education as the locals in 26 more countries.
You can legally own property with the rights of a local in 26 more countries.
You can carry an EU passport when traveling within 26 EU countries and avoid queueing with the immigrants so beloved by the British.
You are guaranteed right of entry to 26 more countries.

MWWSI 2017

vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:08:03 PM

Are you serious?

I think you are stuck very deeply in the denial phase regarding what has happened. Britain is in a level of political chaos not seen for decades. The EU is only marginally better off.

There are those who know when there is an opportunity to make ground in such circumstances and there are those who will look at the headlights.

Sadly, looking at the composition of the Dáil, I think we will keep looking at the headlights and wait for something to happen.

I'm not in denial i'm just not buying the hyperbole.

Agreed. Never any different.

The Dail will do nothing as there is nothing they can do. Right now they are just trying to keep their heads low while somehow making themselves seem relevant.

If the UK breaks up we will just make another Union.

We'll all join the EU with Specail Status relationship between Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales.
The exact same thing under a new name.

armaghniac

Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 01:08:11 PM
Its a simple question of customs and passport control. Today as an eu citizen I walk through these processes in EU pairports. Anybody with a UK but not an Irish passport will not have this luxury going forward. They will still get in (unless they have some criminal record) but its just more hassle

Not much hassle, if merely travelling for visit purposes. But they could lose the right to work etc.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:16:22 PM

You can work without a visa in 26 more countries.
You have access to social security in 26 more countries.
You are eligible for the same healthcare and education as the locals in 26 more countries.
You can legally own property with the rights of a local in 26 more countries.
You can carry an EU passport when traveling within 26 EU countries and avoid queueing with the immigrants so beloved by the British.
You are guaranteed right of entry to 26 more countries.

1. The Swiss and Norwegians can do that, the Brits can too.
2. Brits have access to that.
3. Why would that change? Just agree to keep it.
4. See 3.
5. See 3
6. See all of above

armaghniac

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:16:22 PM

You can work without a visa in 26 more countries.
You have access to social security in 26 more countries.
You are eligible for the same healthcare and education as the locals in 26 more countries.
You can legally own property with the rights of a local in 26 more countries.
You can carry an EU passport when traveling within 26 EU countries and avoid queueing with the immigrants so beloved by the British.
You are guaranteed right of entry to 26 more countries.

1. The Swiss and Norwegians can do that, the Brits can too.
2. Brits have access to that.
3. Why would that change? Just agree to keep it.
4. See 3.
5. See 3
6. See all of above

The Norwegians have contributed to the EU and must allow free movement. The UK can do this, of course; but was it worth all the bother to end up with possibly a bigger contribution and still no immigration restrictions?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

muppet

#610
Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:08:03 PM

Are you serious?

I think you are stuck very deeply in the denial phase regarding what has happened. Britain is in a level of political chaos not seen for decades. The EU is only marginally better off.

There are those who know when there is an opportunity to make ground in such circumstances and there are those who will look at the headlights.

Sadly, looking at the composition of the Dáil, I think we will keep looking at the headlights and wait for something to happen.

I'm not in denial i'm just not buying the hyperbole.

Agreed. Never any different.

The Dail will do nothing as there is nothing they can do. Right now they are just trying to keep their heads low while somehow making themselves seem relevant.

If the UK breaks up we will just make another Union.

We'll all join the EU with Specail Status relationship between Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales.
The exact same thing under a new name.

Sturgeon has played it very well and the Dáil could easily take advantage of the chaos. But they probably won't.

As for this: "If the UK breaks up we will just make another Union."

You seem to think this will just happened and all will be grand.

The last European Country that I can think of that broke up was Yugoslavia. Blind nationalism and xenophobia were among of the causes of that too. For balance it should be mentioned that on the other hand the Czechs and Slovaks separated peaceably in 1993. Which would it be for Britain?

MWWSI 2017

muppet

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:16:22 PM

You can work without a visa in 26 more countries.
You have access to social security in 26 more countries.
You are eligible for the same healthcare and education as the locals in 26 more countries.
You can legally own property with the rights of a local in 26 more countries.
You can carry an EU passport when traveling within 26 EU countries and avoid queueing with the immigrants so beloved by the British.
You are guaranteed right of entry to 26 more countries.

1. The Swiss and Norwegians can do that, the Brits can too.
2. Brits have access to that.
3. Why would that change? Just agree to keep it.
4. See 3.
5. See 3
6. See all of above

Why would the EU agree to any of that? Especially given the chaos that Cameron has dragged every into?
MWWSI 2017

vallankumous

Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2016, 01:22:16 PM


The Norwegians have contributed to the EU and must allow free movement. The UK can do this, of course; but was it worth all the bother to end up with possibly a bigger contribution and still no immigration restrictions?

No it wasn't worth the bother.


Regarless of what the nappy heads think Britain need immigration. Now they can accept it from an educated EU workforce and find a way to sell it to the nappy heads or they can open their borders to former colonies and hope they get lucky.

Either way they won't stop the flow of people. The EU know this as do the Politicians and business leaders.
The EU will want the movement of people to Briain and vise versa. People are capital. If you halt the movement of people you halt the movement of capital.
The entire basis for having an EU>

vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 01:24:57 PM

Why would the EU agree to any of that? Especially given the chaos that Cameron has dragged every into?

Because they want to.

seafoid

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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/b8e7ece0-3ba5-11e6-8716-a4a71e8140b0.html

When the Scots last voted in an independence referendum in 2014 the outcome was 55:45 to preserve the union. But during that campaign those on the unionist side — and I count myself among those who believe that the break-up of the UK would be a tragedy — could argue that Scotland had the best of both worlds: the historical political, cultural and economic ties with England, Wales and Northern Ireland alongside with the wider vision and opportunities afforded by the EU.

Now a choice is unavoidable. And the odds must be that the English nationalism that drove the Brexit vote will succeed where Scottish nationalism has so far failed in reading the rites over the UK.

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU