A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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Rossfan

Cross border bodies could become a mechanism for EU funds to get to the North ??
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

smelmoth

Quote from: muppet on June 26, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
The smart thing to do now is to take advantage of the crisis.

1) Hide Adams as quickly as possible.
2) The Dublin Government needs to very publicly put an arm around the 6 counties and be seen to be a real force in representing their interests - in complete contrast to what is happening now in Stormont and London.
3) Offer potential solutions to those likely to be most worried about a Brexit, e.g. farmers, Civil Service etc, regardless of political leanings.
4) Avoid talk of a UI for the time being.
1) is an obvious and enduring truth.
4) is helpful

How specifically could they do 2) & 3)?

smelmoth

Quote from: T Fearon on June 26, 2016, 03:08:35 PM
Option 4) Has been happening for the last century and will continue for the next one
And would that be wrong?

muppet

Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 26, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
The smart thing to do now is to take advantage of the crisis.

1) Hide Adams as quickly as possible.
2) The Dublin Government needs to very publicly put an arm around the 6 counties and be seen to be a real force in representing their interests - in complete contrast to what is happening now in Stormont and London.
3) Offer potential solutions to those likely to be most worried about a Brexit, e.g. farmers, Civil Service etc, regardless of political leanings.
4) Avoid talk of a UI for the time being.
1) is an obvious and enduring truth.
4) is helpful

How specifically could they do 2) & 3)?

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.
MWWSI 2017

armaghniac

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

The solution is for the 6 counties to remain connected to the UK, but remain in the EU for practical purposes.
But the Dáil committee would work better if someone in the 6 counties would actually articulate a wish for this, ideally someone not nationalist. The problem is that the whole thing is up in the air and so it is hard to take aim.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

vallankumous

Quote from: T Fearon on June 26, 2016, 11:57:11 AM
Once again the contempt for Northern Nationalists evident in Dublin.Enda rules out a border poll, (the one sure way of avoiding a border between North and South), and scurrying to assure the British are supported in the exit negotiations (thus stupidly alienating the freestate's European partners),and not an acknowledgement far less concern for the Northern majority who voted remain.

Why do people in the North pursue Irish Unity.

It's not really Irish unity. We will always be trying to screw each other.
It's a one Island Nation we need under any name. Many people fail to understand that.

muppet

Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2016, 12:40:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

The solution is for the 6 counties to remain connected to the UK, but remain in the EU for practical purposes.
But the Dáil committee would work better if someone in the 6 counties would actually articulate a wish for this, ideally someone not nationalist. The problem is that the whole thing is up in the air and so it is hard to take aim.

This would be a great help, but the GFA and all of the Irish passport holders living there give a certain mandate to the Dáil. Like I said though, we would need it to be a diplomatic group. No loose cannons.
MWWSI 2017

smelmoth

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 26, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
The smart thing to do now is to take advantage of the crisis.

1) Hide Adams as quickly as possible.
2) The Dublin Government needs to very publicly put an arm around the 6 counties and be seen to be a real force in representing their interests - in complete contrast to what is happening now in Stormont and London.
3) Offer potential solutions to those likely to be most worried about a Brexit, e.g. farmers, Civil Service etc, regardless of political leanings.
4) Avoid talk of a UI for the time being.
1) is an obvious and enduring truth.
4) is helpful

How specifically could they do 2) & 3)?

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

So they shouldn't do anything but they should talk about doing something and the body doing the talking should be "powerful"?

And this talking that they would be doing in RoI and with people in Europe is going to help stabilise the situation in NI? NI unionists (the majority in NI) are going to welcome these disinterested, benevolent interventions? 



vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

There'll be another leader in the UK soon, don't worry.

There will be no response this year or next year. They have no clue how to deal with this so they won't. It's just a referendum, no big deal.

The last thing anyone needs is a new Dail group. There is no such thing as a diplomatic group set up by politicians.


muppet

Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 12:50:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 26, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
The smart thing to do now is to take advantage of the crisis.

1) Hide Adams as quickly as possible.
2) The Dublin Government needs to very publicly put an arm around the 6 counties and be seen to be a real force in representing their interests - in complete contrast to what is happening now in Stormont and London.
3) Offer potential solutions to those likely to be most worried about a Brexit, e.g. farmers, Civil Service etc, regardless of political leanings.
4) Avoid talk of a UI for the time being.
1) is an obvious and enduring truth.
4) is helpful

How specifically could they do 2) & 3)?

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

So they shouldn't do anything but they should talk about doing something and the body doing the talking should be "powerful"?

And this talking that they would be doing in RoI and with people in Europe is going to help stabilise the situation in NI? NI unionists (the majority in NI) are going to welcome these disinterested, benevolent interventions?

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

MWWSI 2017

muppet

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 12:54:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

There'll be another leader in the UK soon, don't worry.

There will be no response this year or next year. They have no clue how to deal with this so they won't. It's just a referendum, no big deal.

The last thing anyone needs is a new Dail group. There is no such thing as a diplomatic group set up by politicians.

Ah right. The Tony Fearon Principle.

So...

1) tell the politicians to do nothing

and

2) blame politicians you don't like for doing nothing.

MWWSI 2017

smelmoth

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 12:50:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:33:17 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on June 27, 2016, 11:14:10 AM
Quote from: muppet on June 26, 2016, 12:57:55 PM
The smart thing to do now is to take advantage of the crisis.

1) Hide Adams as quickly as possible.
2) The Dublin Government needs to very publicly put an arm around the 6 counties and be seen to be a real force in representing their interests - in complete contrast to what is happening now in Stormont and London.
3) Offer potential solutions to those likely to be most worried about a Brexit, e.g. farmers, Civil Service etc, regardless of political leanings.
4) Avoid talk of a UI for the time being.
1) is an obvious and enduring truth.
4) is helpful

How specifically could they do 2) & 3)?

The is a complete leadership vacuum in the UK now. As Faisil Islam said on Sky yesterday, the only one who seemed to have a plan for a Leave vote was Sturgeon. And boy has she succeeded in getting her agenda out. Even the Leave campaign has no plan for a Leave vote.

The EU has no plan either and the recriminations will last for a while, e.g. the Germans & Czechs are publicly blaming Juncker, before there is a coherent response from the EU. In fact the words 'coherent response' usually don't go well in a sentence with the letters 'EU'. So that will take time as well.

I think the Dáil should immediately agree to set up a powerful cross-party group, with the full public backing of the leaders of each party, to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>.

This group should be very public, very vocal about supporting every Nationalist, Unionist and Emigrant living in the 6 counties and be very diplomatic about how they portray themselves.

So they shouldn't do anything but they should talk about doing something and the body doing the talking should be "powerful"?

And this talking that they would be doing in RoI and with people in Europe is going to help stabilise the situation in NI? NI unionists (the majority in NI) are going to welcome these disinterested, benevolent interventions?

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

No mention of UK government (whatever that turns out to be) or Stormont executive so unless you are considering imposing things over the heads of these people then I guess you are still n the realm of talking rather than doing

vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

What would be the point in being an EU citizen if you are politically outside the EU?
For example. is there any extra benefit to being an EU citizen than being a British citizen if you lived in Canada?

smelmoth

Quote from: vallankumous on June 27, 2016, 12:58:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:55:03 PM

Did you miss these non-talking points?

"...to quickly identify the key issues for the 6 counties, to seek allies in the EU to support us for example, to keep the border open, to get clarification that the €3.5bn in EU funding goes ahead, that farm subsidies continue for the time being, that all citizens of the 6 counties will continue to be eligible for Irish Passports and thus have the choice of remaining EU citizens, <insert countless other issues I can't think of off the top of my head>. ..."

What would be the point in being an EU citizen if you are politically outside the EU?
For example. is there any extra benefit to being an EU citizen than being a British citizen if you lived in Canada?

In canada no but travelling within europe, yes

vallankumous

Quote from: muppet on June 27, 2016, 12:57:03 PM


Ah right. The Tony Fearon Principle.

So...

1) tell the politicians to do nothing

and

2) blame politicians you don't like for doing nothing.

Not at all.

1. There is no lack of leadership in the UK. It has it's leaders and will have leaders in the future too.
We can pretend they don't but I'd rather not pretend.

2. The politicians will do what they do, that hasn't changed and won't change.
My point is we should not be demanding change and setting up groups when as yet nothing has happened and as is likely nothing will happen.