Eighth Amendment poll

Started by Farrandeelin, May 01, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Are you in favour of repealing the 8th amendment?

Yes
47 (21.8%)
Yes but have no vote
73 (33.8%)
No
40 (18.5%)
No but have no vote
36 (16.7%)
Undecided
20 (9.3%)

Total Members Voted: 216

Voting closed: May 24, 2018, 03:36:55 PM

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

Ty4Sam

Can someone explain to me, is there special circumstances, and if so what are they, that come with repealing the 8th? I take it someone just can't walk off the street and get an abortion, is there a timeframe, medical problems etc.?

I don't have a vote so not interested in getting viewpoints, opinions etc, just the facts.

AZOffaly

#107
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

magpie seanie

Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 03, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 03, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
This is pretty close to my point of view as well.

"3&4. I actually agree that an unborn child should not have equal right to life to that of the mother, but this does not mean then the unborn child does have a right to give life a go. If a proposal was put forward that would still protect the right to life of a healthy fetus but the mothers life was always came first I would happily support it. Not sure if its possible to legislate for this tho and the proposed legislation gives them no right to life whatsoever."

In that case your issue is with the legislators and you should support the removal of the 8th amendment.

No, because I don't trust the legislators, and giving them the power to do what they are proposing to do is what I am uneasy with.

So retain the 8th amendment where the foetus has an equal right to life to that of the mother. Which you don't agree with. That's what you're saying? I'm sorry but that makes absolutely no sense to me. Especially as to do so will not prevent one termination that is happening anyway.....it will just happen in Britain or using illegally imported pills. That's failing to address the issue in my opinion. The constitution is a black and white document....it is simply the wrong vehicle to address such a complex and difficult issue as this.

I understand not trusting politicians (and very often it would be yourself who would be asking me - what other alternative system is there?) but in this process there has been a citizens assembly which considered many contributions and came up with recommendations. The proposed legislation is along the lines of these recommendations. If there was a process of developing legislation that was less controlled by politicians in this country I certainly can't remember it. I know people will say the power to legislate still remains afterwards but does anyone really think there will be any political appetite to revisit this? It has taken 35 years to address a glaring mistake in the 8th amendment.

You're putting words in my mouth.

I would prefer to retain the current amendment rather than completely remove it, thus leaving the way open for the 12 week abortion (and beyond if politicians legislate for it in the future).

However, if the referendum was phrased differently, and specifically reworded the section in language which addressed those particular scenarios only, then I'd be in favour.

My issue with repealing the 8th is that it is being done in such a way as to leave the door open for legislators to do what they like, and on a topic like this, I am not comfortable with that.

If that makes no sense, well, sorry.

AZ - I'm not putting words in your mouth....that's why I used the question mark.

I suppose we fundamentally disagree on whether the constitution is the correct place to legislate for this issue.

I'd just like to restate that voting No will not stop one termination of the type that is already happening. Women will still go to England. Pills will still be imported. The only people who will suffer are the cases where the woman is too sick or distressed or poor to travel to Britain. I understand most people have sympathy in the difficult cases like health complications and rape but are troubled by the elective terminations. That's very understandable but it's only the difficult cases that will or may not be able to go to Britain that you'll stop by voting No.

seafoid

Abortion was common in pre medieval and medieval Ireland and was managed by women.
Changes around the time of the Reformation gave medical and social power to priests.
This film is very interesting. It covers the story from a wider European perspective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YizdSL2_pMo&t=801s

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU


seafoid

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Itchy

Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
And bears shit in the woods.
No would need a much higher % of FF to win.

You dont think a similar % in FG will be the same?

Rossfan

GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Syferus

Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.

seafoid

Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:52:26 PM
Quote from: seafoid on May 03, 2018, 04:24:08 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 03, 2018, 04:10:55 PM
Over Half of the FF parliamentary party will canvas for a No vote.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/more-than-half-of-fianna-fil-parliamentary-party-backing-no-vote-in-referendum-36870462.html
And bears shit in the woods.
No would need a much higher % of FF to win.

You dont think a similar % in FG will be the same?
I think FG are different on social issues but that is just my impression
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Avondhu star

Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?
Lee Harvey Oswald , your country needs you

Syferus

Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

https://extra.ie/2018/04/28/news/irish-news/abortion-poll-yes-side-no-side

Next time use Google if you don't accept broadly known facts.

armaghniac

Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

Young people are generally less responsible and more influenced by fads. The main exception was Brexit.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Syferus

Quote from: armaghniac on May 04, 2018, 12:33:21 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on May 03, 2018, 11:49:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on May 03, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 03, 2018, 04:58:31 PM
GAA Board poll now
Yes 42%
No 37%
Undecided 21%.
About 54/46 with the undecideds out.
In the real world I'd expect about half the 78% of the population who are  Catholics to be No, (same figure as the Same sex marriage Referendum).
Most SF and loony and not so loony left -about 25% will be Yes
So the other 36% will decide with Yes needing 26 of it.

The percentage of people who are catholic on a census form that let that inform how they're voting in the referfrum is quite low and only applies in massive numbers to older people.

If the Yes side get out the vote this will not even be close. The time for debating with the other side should be over now and the focus needs to be on motivating younger people to vote.
What evidence have you that the young vote are more pro repeal?

Young people are generally less responsible and more influenced by fads. The main exception was Brexit.

You are really ratcheting up the nonsense to 11 now.