Joe Brolly

[BennyHarp]

I find this debate about a class footballer who has came up against the best defenders on the team on a consistent basis slightly disconcerting.  Gooch is a class act and its great to see him back from injury, but like all footballers of course he can be marked. Nobody disputes Moynihan or Darraghs greatness but they were marked well too some days.

I can't agree at all. Gooch is meant to be one of the greats but if he was then he would have turned it on when he was absolutely needed too. I don't subscribe to the excuses being made for him, they are not valid. He played in a fantastic team, a team so good that you could not afford overt attention to just one player for fear of another one stepping up and doing it. He's done it throughout his career. Just imagine he was on the Derry team Paddy Bradley was on or the Monaghan team Conor McManus is currently on, imagine the kind of attention he would come in for then. He's meant to be an all time great and you're excusing him about having to deal with the best defenders. The thing about Bradley and McManus was that even with all the attention they received and the utter reliance their teams heaved on them, they rarely let their team down. Gooch has on the big occasion and once again it's the context of him being a great player.

A great player will pull their team with them screaming and dragging when the chips are down. You think of performances like Canavan delivered in his career time and time again in close games where he made the difference, you think of guys like Padraig Joyce in 98, Stevie McDonnell in his pomp for Armagh. For Kerry the players that really stood out for me in this regard were Darragh and Tomas O'Se and Declan O'Sullivan, these were the guys who always seemed to bring the charge to Tyrone when we played them. Cooper was just a peripheral figure as he was in the other big games mentioned. I remember him not getting a touch against Monaghan in the two games they played against him in the late 00s, those were two very close and tight games which went to the wire. Even against Armagh in 2006, which for my money was Kerry's biggest result in the 00s, Cooper was a peripheral figure as Donaghy and Darragh O'Se inspired Kerry to victory.

A great player will, irrespective of where he plays, stamp his authority on the game, particularly when he played on such a good and talented team like Kerry have been throughout his career.

Cooper can be a great player when he's up against inferior opposition and let play but when the pressure is on he has crumbled. There's no real case for arguing otherwise, last week was another prime example of history repeating itself yet people still don't want to be honest about Cooper.

It's funny that you bring up Darragh. Maybe the best midfielder of the last two generations. But if he ever showed up in a battle against Kevin Hughes, I never saw it.

I'm quite content that Darragh is an all time great. But it's a bit odd that that you use different agenda to assess him and Cooper.

I'm not using a different agenda, Darragh O'Se, unlike Cooper, turned up for the big games.

So those "team of the noughties" finals weren't big games?

I don't know Darragh O Se from Adam, but it comes across quite clearly from his media work that he'd happily have traded any two of his Celtic Crosses for a single AI victory against Tyrone.

And him, being a midfielder before the days of "possession restarts" was actually someone who could genuinely influence every single match he played in. Corner forwards don't have that luxury. If their midfield was cleaned out it didn't matter what they did.

Ffs stop digging this hole.

I'm digging no hole but you're the one trying to rewrite history. Darragh O'Se was one of the players who would lead the charge to Tyrone in those games, who knows, maybe if Kerry had more players with his mentality they might have beaten Tyrone in that time period.

Where you play is not an excuse, Gooch didn't want to know about it, there was plenty of ball going into him in that game but he was just getting eaten alive as were most of the Kerry players, the difference being that he is put up on a pedestal high above every other Kerry player and player of his generation. He is the ultimate luxury player, great player to have on your team when you can dominate opposition who will allow you play, otherwise a passenger. The great forward can feed and triumph on scraps. Just look at the performances of Conor McManus for proof of that this year.

Your main bone of contention against Gooch is that he has lost more all Ireland finals than he has won and you seem to suggest these are the only big games he played in. He was superb in many Munster finals against good Cork teams and also many all Ireland quarters and finals. You then say canavan was a great but his performances in all Ireland finals don't stand up to scrutiny. In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw. In 2003 again he didn't score from play, only scoring a few handy frees. In 2005 he only scored 1.1 out of 1.16, hardly a match winning contribution. I may or may not agree with what I've just written but those are facts which I could use to present a case that canavan was just an ordinary player if you just base your criteria on just all Ireland finals.

He must save all his big performances for Cork and Mayo so.

Just like Canavan must've saved his for Cavan and Fermanagh because he didn't really do it on the all Ireland stage. And what about McManus? I can't remember too many great performances from him on all Ireland final day or even all that often in croke park. Again I'm just using the criteria which you use as the stick to beat Gooch.

[JoG2]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

That's just distortion, he has flopped in the vast majority of games where he was really needed. And you keep forgetting to put this in context, he's meant to be best player in the game, one of the all time greats and he hasn't shown he's suitable to that tag when the pressure has been down. You seem to be judging him on fairly low standards for a player of his standing.

He's not meant to be the best player in the game - he's meant to be one of them.

Please provide a list of games he failed in.

Has the fella done something to offend you??

But he is meant to be the best player of the past 15 years.

Off the top of my head, big games he has failed in:

Tyrone 03, 05, 08 and 15
Dublin 15
Armagh 03 and 06
Derry 04
Monaghan 07 and 08
Cork 09
Down 10
Donegal 12


He also completely faded out of games against Dublin in 11 and 13 when the pressure cranked up.

15 games off the top of your head 

you cant just go through the years and type in Kerry's opposition at Croke Pk. The Gooch scored a reck that day and had a fine game. Himself and Tomás were the difference imo

[easytiger95]

Every time i read a post by Bomber in this thread.for some reason I'm reminded of this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cV_q-mVAAA

[Snapchap]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

[Applesisapples]

Is Il Bomber the new Tony?

[Il Bomber Destro]

I know that in 2005 an injury ravaged Canavan who was on the verge of retirement in his mid 30s was decisive for Tyrone in a closely fought Alll Ireland final with Kerry.

Canavan was the man for the big occasion,  a true great.

[westbound]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

To be fair, the point was that using the same criteria as the bomber appears to be using for cooper no-one would be considered a great!

[imtommygunn]

Are you annoyed because some people think Cooper was better than Canavan? Is that the issue here?

[lenny]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

I think canavan was a great player. I'm just using il bomber's twisted logic to show that you can provide an argument that any player wasn't great. Canavan only scored one point from play in 95 when tyrone needed him most. That's the kind of comment il bomber is using against gooch.

[BennyHarp]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

I think canavan was a great player. I'm just using il bomber's twisted logic to show that you can provide an argument that any player wasn't great. Canavan only scored one point from play in 95 when tyrone needed him most. That's the kind of comment il bomber is using against gooch.

Be careful Lenny, you're in danger of backing up Bomber's point with your own nonsense! They needed him in 03 when half crippled and he delivered with 5 important frees. They needed him on 05 and he delivered again with the decisive goal and inspirational point at a vital time!

[Il Bomber Destro]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

To be fair, the point was that using the same criteria as the bomber appears to be using for cooper no-one would be considered a great!

They would. The point is that Cooper has CONSISTENTLY faded out on action in the big games when his team Ave really needed him to drag them on. The great players have been the catalyst for their teams time and time again when they have needed them.

Here's where you consider the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell, Dooher and Donaghy among others.

[westbound]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

To be fair, the point was that using the same criteria as the bomber appears to be using for cooper no-one would be considered a great!

They would. The point is that Cooper has CONSISTENTLY faded out on action in the big games when his team Ave really needed him to drag them on. The great players have been the catalyst for their teams time and time again when they have needed them.

Here's where you consider the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell, Dooher and Donaghy among others.

Speaking of consistency, I don't think you are being consistent in your measurement of different players.

And if you honestly think that Donaghy was/is a better player than Cooper then I have nothing more to add to this topic.

[Il Bomber Destro]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

To be fair, the point was that using the same criteria as the bomber appears to be using for cooper no-one would be considered a great!

They would. The point is that Cooper has CONSISTENTLY faded out on action in the big games when his team Ave really needed him to drag them on. The great players have been the catalyst for their teams time and time again when they have needed them.

Here's where you consider the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell, Dooher and Donaghy among others.

Speaking of consistency, I don't think you are being consistent in your measurement of different players.

And if you honestly think that Donaghy was/is a better player than Cooper then I have nothing more to add to this topic.

If I wanted a player to do the business when it really mattered I'd have Donachy.

If I wanted a player to destroy the little teams then I'd have Cooper, the best flat track bully in the game.

[AZOffaly]

Fair play Bomber, you got good mileage out of this one.

[westbound]

In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw...

Canavan scored 11 of Tyrone's 12 points in the 1995 final, and to you, this is somehow evidence that he couldn't perform in All-Ireland finals?

OK, Mods, please close gaaboard.com down for good, it can't get any more f@#king stupid.

To be fair, the point was that using the same criteria as the bomber appears to be using for cooper no-one would be considered a great!

They would. The point is that Cooper has CONSISTENTLY faded out on action in the big games when his team Ave really needed him to drag them on. The great players have been the catalyst for their teams time and time again when they have needed them.

Here's where you consider the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell, Dooher and Donaghy among others.

Speaking of consistency, I don't think you are being consistent in your measurement of different players.

And if you honestly think that Donaghy was/is a better player than Cooper then I have nothing more to add to this topic.

If I wanted a player to do the business when it really mattered I'd have Donachy.

If I wanted a player to destroy the little teams then I'd have Cooper, the best flat track bully in the game.

OK. you win! I give up!

I completely disagree with your opinion of cooper, but the fact that you would have Donaghy ahead of cooper tells me all I need to know.
As I said, I now have nothing more to add to this topic.