Joe Brolly

[Darby]

Il Bomber Destro.

I cannot stand Kerry, but its a complete myth that he doesn't show up in big games. He was terrible last week. But in the 2005 and 2008 finals he was actually Kerry's best player. Watch it back. Check how much he scored, from play and from frees. As he was in the losing 2011 final.

You are nothing but a vile cretin anyway so I shouldn't pay you that much attention. Just think it says a lot when a Kerry hater feels the need to defend absolute tripe from attention seekers like you.

By the way, I'll give you partial credit for mentioning the 2006 match against Armagh. Cooper was ineffective all that year after taking the death of his father extremely badly. But I suppose the greats block out their feelings, eh Bomber, you true gael!

[omaghjoe]

Il Bomber Destro.

I cannot stand Kerry, but its a complete myth that he doesn't show up in big games. He was terrible last week. But in the 2005 and 2008 finals he was actually Kerry's best player. Watch it back. Check how much he scored, from play and from frees. As he was in the losing 2011 final.

You are nothing but a vile cretin anyway so I shouldn't pay you that much attention. Just think it says a lot when a Kerry hater feels the need to defend absolute tripe from attention seekers like you.

By the way, I'll give you partial credit for mentioning the 2006 match against Armagh. Cooper was ineffective all that year after taking the death of his father extremely badly. But I suppose the greats block out their feelings, eh Bomber, you true gael!

I dont disagree with you on this Darby but considering your post contribution to date your in no position to be calling anyone a cretin

[Il Bomber Destro]

I find this debate about a class footballer who has came up against the best defenders on the team on a consistent basis slightly disconcerting.  Gooch is a class act and its great to see him back from injury, but like all footballers of course he can be marked. Nobody disputes Moynihan or Darraghs greatness but they were marked well too some days.

I can't agree at all. Gooch is meant to be one of the greats but if he was then he would have turned it on when he was absolutely needed too. I don't subscribe to the excuses being made for him, they are not valid. He played in a fantastic team, a team so good that you could not afford overt attention to just one player for fear of another one stepping up and doing it. He's done it throughout his career. Just imagine he was on the Derry team Paddy Bradley was on or the Monaghan team Conor McManus is currently on, imagine the kind of attention he would come in for then. He's meant to be an all time great and you're excusing him about having to deal with the best defenders. The thing about Bradley and McManus was that even with all the attention they received and the utter reliance their teams heaved on them, they rarely let their team down. Gooch has on the big occasion and once again it's the context of him being a great player.

A great player will pull their team with them screaming and dragging when the chips are down. You think of performances like Canavan delivered in his career time and time again in close games where he made the difference, you think of guys like Padraig Joyce in 98, Stevie McDonnell in his pomp for Armagh. For Kerry the players that really stood out for me in this regard were Darragh and Tomas O'Se and Declan O'Sullivan, these were the guys who always seemed to bring the charge to Tyrone when we played them. Cooper was just a peripheral figure as he was in the other big games mentioned. I remember him not getting a touch against Monaghan in the two games they played against him in the late 00s, those were two very close and tight games which went to the wire. Even against Armagh in 2006, which for my money was Kerry's biggest result in the 00s, Cooper was a peripheral figure as Donaghy and Darragh O'Se inspired Kerry to victory.

A great player will, irrespective of where he plays, stamp his authority on the game, particularly when he played on such a good and talented team like Kerry have been throughout his career.

Cooper can be a great player when he's up against inferior opposition and let play but when the pressure is on he has crumbled. There's no real case for arguing otherwise, last week was another prime example of history repeating itself yet people still don't want to be honest about Cooper.

It's funny that you bring up Darragh. Maybe the best midfielder of the last two generations. But if he ever showed up in a battle against Kevin Hughes, I never saw it.

I'm quite content that Darragh is an all time great. But it's a bit odd that that you use different agenda to assess him and Cooper.

I'm not using a different agenda, Darragh O'Se, unlike Cooper, turned up for the big games.

So those "team of the noughties" finals weren't big games?

I don't know Darragh O Se from Adam, but it comes across quite clearly from his media work that he'd happily have traded any two of his Celtic Crosses for a single AI victory against Tyrone.

And him, being a midfielder before the days of "possession restarts" was actually someone who could genuinely influence every single match he played in. Corner forwards don't have that luxury. If their midfield was cleaned out it didn't matter what they did.

Ffs stop digging this hole.

I'm digging no hole but you're the one trying to rewrite history. Darragh O'Se was one of the players who would lead the charge to Tyrone in those games, who knows, maybe if Kerry had more players with his mentality they might have beaten Tyrone in that time period.

Where you play is not an excuse, Gooch didn't want to know about it, there was plenty of ball going into him in that game but he was just getting eaten alive as were most of the Kerry players, the difference being that he is put up on a pedestal high above every other Kerry player and player of his generation. He is the ultimate luxury player, great player to have on your team when you can dominate opposition who will allow you play, otherwise a passenger. The great forward can feed and triumph on scraps. Just look at the performances of Conor McManus for proof of that this year.

[imtommygunn]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

[westbound]

You seem to have a real bitterness against gooch.

He's a great and the vast majority of us think that. Those who don't are in the minority.

One bad match does not make him a bad player!

(You were provided stats on other ai final losses but seemed to ignore them)

As I said, the games where Cork and Mayo turned up to have their bellies tickled do not fall into this remit. It's not one bad game, it's history repeating itself with Cooper. It's another disappearing act he has done when they need him to be leading the charge and he doesn't want to know about it.

Still ignoring the facts about the losing finals he played in, I see.

I have no problem with you having a different opinion to me. That's fine.

But I do have a problem with you ignoring the facts/stats.

You say that gooch disappeared in the big games when kerry needed him? Yet the facts say that in 3 of the 5 finals he lost he was top scorer from play for kerry!

Now if you considering scoring at least 0-3 from play and being top scorer from play for your team as disappearing then you must think that there has NEVER been a player ANYWHERE that hasn't disappeared.

As a matter of interest, do you consider Peter Canavan as a great? Do you think he ever 'disappeared' in a big game for Tyrone? 0-1 from play in his first final, 0-0 from play in his second final and 1-1 from play in his 3rd final!
Or does gooch have to meet higher criteria than everyone else?

[Il Bomber Destro]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

That's just distortion, he has flopped in the vast majority of games where he was really needed. And you keep forgetting to put this in context, he's meant to be best player in the game, one of the all time greats and he hasn't shown he's suitable to that tag when the pressure has been down. You seem to be judging him on fairly low standards for a player of his standing.

[lenny]

I find this debate about a class footballer who has came up against the best defenders on the team on a consistent basis slightly disconcerting.  Gooch is a class act and its great to see him back from injury, but like all footballers of course he can be marked. Nobody disputes Moynihan or Darraghs greatness but they were marked well too some days.

I can't agree at all. Gooch is meant to be one of the greats but if he was then he would have turned it on when he was absolutely needed too. I don't subscribe to the excuses being made for him, they are not valid. He played in a fantastic team, a team so good that you could not afford overt attention to just one player for fear of another one stepping up and doing it. He's done it throughout his career. Just imagine he was on the Derry team Paddy Bradley was on or the Monaghan team Conor McManus is currently on, imagine the kind of attention he would come in for then. He's meant to be an all time great and you're excusing him about having to deal with the best defenders. The thing about Bradley and McManus was that even with all the attention they received and the utter reliance their teams heaved on them, they rarely let their team down. Gooch has on the big occasion and once again it's the context of him being a great player.

A great player will pull their team with them screaming and dragging when the chips are down. You think of performances like Canavan delivered in his career time and time again in close games where he made the difference, you think of guys like Padraig Joyce in 98, Stevie McDonnell in his pomp for Armagh. For Kerry the players that really stood out for me in this regard were Darragh and Tomas O'Se and Declan O'Sullivan, these were the guys who always seemed to bring the charge to Tyrone when we played them. Cooper was just a peripheral figure as he was in the other big games mentioned. I remember him not getting a touch against Monaghan in the two games they played against him in the late 00s, those were two very close and tight games which went to the wire. Even against Armagh in 2006, which for my money was Kerry's biggest result in the 00s, Cooper was a peripheral figure as Donaghy and Darragh O'Se inspired Kerry to victory.

A great player will, irrespective of where he plays, stamp his authority on the game, particularly when he played on such a good and talented team like Kerry have been throughout his career.

Cooper can be a great player when he's up against inferior opposition and let play but when the pressure is on he has crumbled. There's no real case for arguing otherwise, last week was another prime example of history repeating itself yet people still don't want to be honest about Cooper.

It's funny that you bring up Darragh. Maybe the best midfielder of the last two generations. But if he ever showed up in a battle against Kevin Hughes, I never saw it.

I'm quite content that Darragh is an all time great. But it's a bit odd that that you use different agenda to assess him and Cooper.

I'm not using a different agenda, Darragh O'Se, unlike Cooper, turned up for the big games.

So those "team of the noughties" finals weren't big games?

I don't know Darragh O Se from Adam, but it comes across quite clearly from his media work that he'd happily have traded any two of his Celtic Crosses for a single AI victory against Tyrone.

And him, being a midfielder before the days of "possession restarts" was actually someone who could genuinely influence every single match he played in. Corner forwards don't have that luxury. If their midfield was cleaned out it didn't matter what they did.

Ffs stop digging this hole.

I'm digging no hole but you're the one trying to rewrite history. Darragh O'Se was one of the players who would lead the charge to Tyrone in those games, who knows, maybe if Kerry had more players with his mentality they might have beaten Tyrone in that time period.

Where you play is not an excuse, Gooch didn't want to know about it, there was plenty of ball going into him in that game but he was just getting eaten alive as were most of the Kerry players, the difference being that he is put up on a pedestal high above every other Kerry player and player of his generation. He is the ultimate luxury player, great player to have on your team when you can dominate opposition who will allow you play, otherwise a passenger. The great forward can feed and triumph on scraps. Just look at the performances of Conor McManus for proof of that this year.

Your main bone of contention against Gooch is that he has lost more all Ireland finals than he has won and you seem to suggest these are the only big games he played in. He was superb in many Munster finals against good Cork teams and also many all Ireland quarters and finals. You then say canavan was a great but his performances in all Ireland finals don't stand up to scrutiny. In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw. In 2003 again he didn't score from play, only scoring a few handy frees. In 2005 he only scored 1.1 out of 1.16, hardly a match winning contribution. I may or may not agree with what I've just written but those are facts which I could use to present a case that canavan was just an ordinary player if you just base your criteria on just all Ireland finals.

[Il Bomber Destro]

I find this debate about a class footballer who has came up against the best defenders on the team on a consistent basis slightly disconcerting.  Gooch is a class act and its great to see him back from injury, but like all footballers of course he can be marked. Nobody disputes Moynihan or Darraghs greatness but they were marked well too some days.

I can't agree at all. Gooch is meant to be one of the greats but if he was then he would have turned it on when he was absolutely needed too. I don't subscribe to the excuses being made for him, they are not valid. He played in a fantastic team, a team so good that you could not afford overt attention to just one player for fear of another one stepping up and doing it. He's done it throughout his career. Just imagine he was on the Derry team Paddy Bradley was on or the Monaghan team Conor McManus is currently on, imagine the kind of attention he would come in for then. He's meant to be an all time great and you're excusing him about having to deal with the best defenders. The thing about Bradley and McManus was that even with all the attention they received and the utter reliance their teams heaved on them, they rarely let their team down. Gooch has on the big occasion and once again it's the context of him being a great player.

A great player will pull their team with them screaming and dragging when the chips are down. You think of performances like Canavan delivered in his career time and time again in close games where he made the difference, you think of guys like Padraig Joyce in 98, Stevie McDonnell in his pomp for Armagh. For Kerry the players that really stood out for me in this regard were Darragh and Tomas O'Se and Declan O'Sullivan, these were the guys who always seemed to bring the charge to Tyrone when we played them. Cooper was just a peripheral figure as he was in the other big games mentioned. I remember him not getting a touch against Monaghan in the two games they played against him in the late 00s, those were two very close and tight games which went to the wire. Even against Armagh in 2006, which for my money was Kerry's biggest result in the 00s, Cooper was a peripheral figure as Donaghy and Darragh O'Se inspired Kerry to victory.

A great player will, irrespective of where he plays, stamp his authority on the game, particularly when he played on such a good and talented team like Kerry have been throughout his career.

Cooper can be a great player when he's up against inferior opposition and let play but when the pressure is on he has crumbled. There's no real case for arguing otherwise, last week was another prime example of history repeating itself yet people still don't want to be honest about Cooper.

It's funny that you bring up Darragh. Maybe the best midfielder of the last two generations. But if he ever showed up in a battle against Kevin Hughes, I never saw it.

I'm quite content that Darragh is an all time great. But it's a bit odd that that you use different agenda to assess him and Cooper.

I'm not using a different agenda, Darragh O'Se, unlike Cooper, turned up for the big games.

So those "team of the noughties" finals weren't big games?

I don't know Darragh O Se from Adam, but it comes across quite clearly from his media work that he'd happily have traded any two of his Celtic Crosses for a single AI victory against Tyrone.

And him, being a midfielder before the days of "possession restarts" was actually someone who could genuinely influence every single match he played in. Corner forwards don't have that luxury. If their midfield was cleaned out it didn't matter what they did.

Ffs stop digging this hole.

I'm digging no hole but you're the one trying to rewrite history. Darragh O'Se was one of the players who would lead the charge to Tyrone in those games, who knows, maybe if Kerry had more players with his mentality they might have beaten Tyrone in that time period.

Where you play is not an excuse, Gooch didn't want to know about it, there was plenty of ball going into him in that game but he was just getting eaten alive as were most of the Kerry players, the difference being that he is put up on a pedestal high above every other Kerry player and player of his generation. He is the ultimate luxury player, great player to have on your team when you can dominate opposition who will allow you play, otherwise a passenger. The great forward can feed and triumph on scraps. Just look at the performances of Conor McManus for proof of that this year.

Your main bone of contention against Gooch is that he has lost more all Ireland finals than he has won and you seem to suggest these are the only big games he played in. He was superb in many Munster finals against good Cork teams and also many all Ireland quarters and finals. You then say canavan was a great but his performances in all Ireland finals don't stand up to scrutiny. In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw. In 2003 again he didn't score from play, only scoring a few handy frees. In 2005 he only scored 1.1 out of 1.16, hardly a match winning contribution. I may or may not agree with what I've just written but those are facts which I could use to present a case that canavan was just an ordinary player if you just base your criteria on just all Ireland finals.

He must save all his big performances for Cork and Mayo so.

[JoG2]

This has to be one of the wackiest threads ever.  Bomber's picnic is missing a sandwich or 2.

Gooch not an all time great... Hogwash!

[westbound]

You seem to have a real bitterness against gooch.

He's a great and the vast majority of us think that. Those who don't are in the minority.

One bad match does not make him a bad player!

(You were provided stats on other ai final losses but seemed to ignore them)

As I said, the games where Cork and Mayo turned up to have their bellies tickled do not fall into this remit. It's not one bad game, it's history repeating itself with Cooper. It's another disappearing act he has done when they need him to be leading the charge and he doesn't want to know about it.

Still ignoring the facts about the losing finals he played in, I see.

I have no problem with you having a different opinion to me. That's fine.

But I do have a problem with you ignoring the facts/stats.

You say that gooch disappeared in the big games when kerry needed him? Yet the facts say that in 3 of the 5 finals he lost he was top scorer from play for kerry!

Now if you considering scoring at least 0-3 from play and being top scorer from play for your team as disappearing then you must think that there has NEVER been a player ANYWHERE that hasn't disappeared.

As a matter of interest, do you consider Peter Canavan as a great? Do you think he ever 'disappeared' in a big game for Tyrone? 0-1 from play in his first final, 0-0 from play in his second final and 1-1 from play in his 3rd final!
Or does gooch have to meet higher criteria than everyone else?

Any response Bomber? You've had two replies since I posted this and you have still ignored these facts which go against your argument.

[BennyHarp]

Can everyone not agree to disagree with Il Bomber on the Gooch thing at this stage?

[imtommygunn]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

That's just distortion, he has flopped in the vast majority of games where he was really needed. And you keep forgetting to put this in context, he's meant to be best player in the game, one of the all time greats and he hasn't shown he's suitable to that tag when the pressure has been down. You seem to be judging him on fairly low standards for a player of his standing.

He's not meant to be the best player in the game - he's meant to be one of them.

Please provide a list of games he failed in.

Has the fella done something to offend you??

[lenny]

I find this debate about a class footballer who has came up against the best defenders on the team on a consistent basis slightly disconcerting.  Gooch is a class act and its great to see him back from injury, but like all footballers of course he can be marked. Nobody disputes Moynihan or Darraghs greatness but they were marked well too some days.

I can't agree at all. Gooch is meant to be one of the greats but if he was then he would have turned it on when he was absolutely needed too. I don't subscribe to the excuses being made for him, they are not valid. He played in a fantastic team, a team so good that you could not afford overt attention to just one player for fear of another one stepping up and doing it. He's done it throughout his career. Just imagine he was on the Derry team Paddy Bradley was on or the Monaghan team Conor McManus is currently on, imagine the kind of attention he would come in for then. He's meant to be an all time great and you're excusing him about having to deal with the best defenders. The thing about Bradley and McManus was that even with all the attention they received and the utter reliance their teams heaved on them, they rarely let their team down. Gooch has on the big occasion and once again it's the context of him being a great player.

A great player will pull their team with them screaming and dragging when the chips are down. You think of performances like Canavan delivered in his career time and time again in close games where he made the difference, you think of guys like Padraig Joyce in 98, Stevie McDonnell in his pomp for Armagh. For Kerry the players that really stood out for me in this regard were Darragh and Tomas O'Se and Declan O'Sullivan, these were the guys who always seemed to bring the charge to Tyrone when we played them. Cooper was just a peripheral figure as he was in the other big games mentioned. I remember him not getting a touch against Monaghan in the two games they played against him in the late 00s, those were two very close and tight games which went to the wire. Even against Armagh in 2006, which for my money was Kerry's biggest result in the 00s, Cooper was a peripheral figure as Donaghy and Darragh O'Se inspired Kerry to victory.

A great player will, irrespective of where he plays, stamp his authority on the game, particularly when he played on such a good and talented team like Kerry have been throughout his career.

Cooper can be a great player when he's up against inferior opposition and let play but when the pressure is on he has crumbled. There's no real case for arguing otherwise, last week was another prime example of history repeating itself yet people still don't want to be honest about Cooper.

It's funny that you bring up Darragh. Maybe the best midfielder of the last two generations. But if he ever showed up in a battle against Kevin Hughes, I never saw it.

I'm quite content that Darragh is an all time great. But it's a bit odd that that you use different agenda to assess him and Cooper.

I'm not using a different agenda, Darragh O'Se, unlike Cooper, turned up for the big games.

So those "team of the noughties" finals weren't big games?

I don't know Darragh O Se from Adam, but it comes across quite clearly from his media work that he'd happily have traded any two of his Celtic Crosses for a single AI victory against Tyrone.

And him, being a midfielder before the days of "possession restarts" was actually someone who could genuinely influence every single match he played in. Corner forwards don't have that luxury. If their midfield was cleaned out it didn't matter what they did.

Ffs stop digging this hole.

I'm digging no hole but you're the one trying to rewrite history. Darragh O'Se was one of the players who would lead the charge to Tyrone in those games, who knows, maybe if Kerry had more players with his mentality they might have beaten Tyrone in that time period.

Where you play is not an excuse, Gooch didn't want to know about it, there was plenty of ball going into him in that game but he was just getting eaten alive as were most of the Kerry players, the difference being that he is put up on a pedestal high above every other Kerry player and player of his generation. He is the ultimate luxury player, great player to have on your team when you can dominate opposition who will allow you play, otherwise a passenger. The great forward can feed and triumph on scraps. Just look at the performances of Conor McManus for proof of that this year.

Your main bone of contention against Gooch is that he has lost more all Ireland finals than he has won and you seem to suggest these are the only big games he played in. He was superb in many Munster finals against good Cork teams and also many all Ireland quarters and finals. You then say canavan was a great but his performances in all Ireland finals don't stand up to scrutiny. In 1995 he only scored one point from play and made a bad error in the closing moments when tyrone had a great chance of a draw. In 2003 again he didn't score from play, only scoring a few handy frees. In 2005 he only scored 1.1 out of 1.16, hardly a match winning contribution. I may or may not agree with what I've just written but those are facts which I could use to present a case that canavan was just an ordinary player if you just base your criteria on just all Ireland finals.

He must save all his big performances for Cork and Mayo so.

Just like Canavan must've saved his for Cavan and Fermanagh because he didn't really do it on the all Ireland stage. And what about McManus? I can't remember too many great performances from him on all Ireland final day or even all that often in croke park. Again I'm just using the criteria which you use as the stick to beat Gooch.

[Il Bomber Destro]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

That's just distortion, he has flopped in the vast majority of games where he was really needed. And you keep forgetting to put this in context, he's meant to be best player in the game, one of the all time greats and he hasn't shown he's suitable to that tag when the pressure has been down. You seem to be judging him on fairly low standards for a player of his standing.

He's not meant to be the best player in the game - he's meant to be one of them.

Please provide a list of games he failed in.

Has the fella done something to offend you??

But he is meant to be the best player of the past 15 years.

Off the top of my head, big games he has failed in:

Tyrone 03, 05, 08 and 15
Dublin 15
Armagh 03 and 06
Derry 04
Monaghan 07 and 08
Cork 09
Down 10
Donegal 12


He also completely faded out of games against Dublin in 11 and 13 when the pressure cranked up.

[lenny]

McManus has been very good for two years - yes two. He has been decent other years but struggled against the bigger teams with the blanket defenses.

Gooch has been about for 12 years. He has done it consistently for 12 years. He had a really bad injury last year so let's say worst case he's done it for 10 years with a year out and a year for the injury itself. This is for club and county.

What's his crime here? To have played on a great team and to have played a couple of bad games?

Oh no he had a bad game in an AI final and against Crossmaglen once - he must be overrated! He played multiple times against crossmaglen. He'd a bad game in the semi that year and the rest weren't  bad at all.

List the games where he disappeared please. All of them. It has already been said, by multiple tyrone people, that he wasn't poor against you.

That's just distortion, he has flopped in the vast majority of games where he was really needed. And you keep forgetting to put this in context, he's meant to be best player in the game, one of the all time greats and he hasn't shown he's suitable to that tag when the pressure has been down. You seem to be judging him on fairly low standards for a player of his standing.

He's not meant to be the best player in the game - he's meant to be one of them.

Please provide a list of games he failed in.

Has the fella done something to offend you??

But he is meant to be the best player of the past 15 years.

Off the top of my head, big games he has failed in:

Tyrone 03, 05, 08 and 15
Dublin 15
Armagh 03 and 06
Derry 04
Monaghan 07 and 08
Cork 09
Down 10
Donegal 12


He also completely faded out of games against Dublin in 11 and 13 when the pressure cranked up.

Provide us with the stats for those games and also answer the questions about canavan.