Joe Brolly

[Il Bomber Destro]

Today Gooch wasn't brilliant  but he was on a side where no player was,he's 32 years of age and it was generally a dreadful match in desperate conditions. To use that as a stick to try beat a man with that has been a joy to watch for the past decade or so is quite frankly ludicrous to me.

But it's a recurring theme how he fails to perform in the big games when his team really need him. It's grand when everything is going nicely and they're steamrolling Cork and Mayo but what about the games with the Ulster sides where they were struggling to get over the line? He never really managed to impost himself in big games against the Ulster sides, I felt he was very well marshalled in big games against Tyrone, Monaghan, Down, Donegal and Armagh all trough his career and today was another example of that. He's a very talented player, no doubt about that but is he a bit of a flat track bully?

I think Brolly made that point very well and was savaged for it as there seems to be an unwritten rule that states Gooch is untouchable and above question or criticism, a lot of the shadier side of his game are completely glossed over as well.

Today was a further vindication for the point Brolly made about Cooper.

[Wildweasel74]

Cooper been poor since coming back from injury, but every very good player i seen fades after 31 or so, D Dolan, P Bradley, C Cooper,D O`Sullivan, A Tohill, M Fitzgerald, etc all dipped seriously once they hit that age. Linden was the only exception who still had speed to burn at 38, never understood why he didn't lose his speed. Sean Cavanagh and brogan are that age group too, i expect their legs to go over the next 2yrs.

[beer baron]

This has been done to death so i'll leave it as we'll agree to disagree because we'll just go around in circles like always happens when this pops up. 

[Wildweasel74]

In all honesty Joe went missing too many times he played against Paul Donnelly so he can hardly give out about players going missing in the heat of battle

[Il Bomber Destro]

In all honesty Joe went missing too many times he played against Paul Donnelly so he can hardly give out about players going missing in the heat of battle

Not really the point or issue. Cooper is regarded as one of the greats of the game but has a record of failing to put in performances in big games when his team really need him.

You look over the past 15-20 years and you see how guys like Canavan, Joyce, McDonnell, Donaghy, Dooher, McConville, Cavanagh etc really stood up and were counted when their teams really needed them.

[Il Bomber Destro]

How many games in Championship football can you recall Cooper dragging Kerry over the line when they were toiling for instance?

[StephenC]

In all honesty Joe went missing too many times he played against Paul Donnelly so he can hardly give out about players going missing in the heat of battle

Not really the point or issue. Cooper is regarded as one of the greats of the game but has a record of failing to put in performances in big games when his team really need him.

You look over the past 15-20 years and you see how guys like Canavan, Joyce, McDonnell, Donaghy, Dooher, McConville, Cavanagh etc really stood up and were counted when their teams really needed them.

[lenny]

How many games in Championship football can you recall Cooper dragging Kerry over the line when they were toiling for instance?

He hasnt had to because they win most games fairly comfortably and a lot of that is down to his brilliance. The bottom line is that he hasnt fully recovered from his cruciate injury. He will be a lot better next year if he stays injury free. Any player over 25 takes a very long time to recover from a cruciate injury, any physio would say that.

[Il Bomber Destro]

How many games in Championship football can you recall Cooper dragging Kerry over the line when they were toiling for instance?

He hasnt had to because they win most games fairly comfortably and a lot of that is down to his brilliance. The bottom line is that he hasnt fully recovered from his cruciate injury. He will be a lot better next year if he stays injury free. Any player over 25 takes a very long time to recover from a cruciate injury, any physio would say that.

But this has nothing really to do with his injury. It was a case of Kerry needing a big performance out of Cooper and once again him being found wanting when it's high stakes. It's a recurring theme and Kerry had plenty of players today who didn't perform but Cooper is one of all time greats apparently and I really have to question his inclusion in that pantheon when he doesn't deliver at critical stages.

If you look at Kerry in Gooch's intercounty career, which big games has he got them over the line in? He's lost more All Ireland finals than he has won. Of the All Ireland finals he has won they have been against Cork and Mayo and only one of them was in anyway competitive (being the 09 final with Cork) where Kerry never really looked in much bother near the end.

[beer baron]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

[Il Bomber Destro]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

Come on, he's talked about as one of the best players to ever play the game so he should be judged in those parameters.

All good players are targeted, it's always been the case. Cooper is nothing new there and it's also far more difficult (and naive) to target him when Kerry have such an abundance of other talented players. I'd actually love to see how Cooper would handled the attention someone like Paddy Bradley, Peter Canavan or Conor McManus had/have in their county careers.

What Cooper has returned in those big games does not cut it for a player with his exalted reputation. Darragh O'Se and Donaghy were too players in particular who I felt were superb for Kerry when they needed big performances at critical junctures, I've always felt Cooper has a yellow streak in him when the going gets tough and today was another case of that.

[beer baron]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

Come on, he's talked about as one of the best players to ever play the game so he should be judged in those parameters.

All good players are targeted, it's always been the case. Cooper is nothing new there and it's also far more difficult (and naive) to target him when Kerry have such an abundance of other talented players. I'd actually love to see how Cooper would handled the attention someone like Paddy Bradley, Peter Canavan or Conor McManus had/have in their county careers.

What Cooper has returned in those big games does not cut it for a player with his exalted reputation. Darragh O'Se and Donaghy were too players in particular who I felt were superb for Kerry when they needed big performances at critical junctures, I've always felt Cooper has a yellow streak in him when the going gets tough and today was another case of that.

So we should've just left it as we'll agree to disagree like a said a few posts back?

[Il Bomber Destro]

Don't know why i'm even bothering doing this again but off the top of my head he was brilliant against the Dubs 2 years back when they almost pulled off a shock victory.  He dragged Kerry straight back into the game by sticking one in the net v Mayo in 2011 i think straight after O Connor scored a penalty to put Mayo ahead and continued to play brilliantly throughout. Has been man of the match in All Ireland finals, scored 3 or 4 points from play against Tyrone in 2005 when they were at their meanest and singled him out for attention.

The big thing though is that when Gooch is/was onsong there is rarely a need for them to pull off a dramatic comeback or scrape home because he has already done the damage and the game is put to bed. Of course he has poor games he's only human but for someone to score and create so much up to and including All Ireland finals despite being as light as he is and being targetted in the most physically demanding era of the game is phenomenal.

Come on, he's talked about as one of the best players to ever play the game so he should be judged in those parameters.

All good players are targeted, it's always been the case. Cooper is nothing new there and it's also far more difficult (and naive) to target him when Kerry have such an abundance of other talented players. I'd actually love to see how Cooper would handled the attention someone like Paddy Bradley, Peter Canavan or Conor McManus had/have in their county careers.

What Cooper has returned in those big games does not cut it for a player with his exalted reputation. Darragh O'Se and Donaghy were too players in particular who I felt were superb for Kerry when they needed big performances at critical junctures, I've always felt Cooper has a yellow streak in him when the going gets tough and today was another case of that.

So we should've just left it as we'll agree to disagree like a said a few posts back?

If Gooch is talked about as an all time great he should be judged on the type of standards you'd expect of an all time great. For me he falls far behind a fair few other forwards of his generation.

I'd have guys like Canavan, Joyce, McDonnell, Bradley etc. He's played on a great team all his career, he's never been weighed down with the burden of carrying teams like the likes of Canavan, Murphy, Bradley or McManus have been at varying stages of their careers.

[Talks a good game]

Watched the All Ireland on sky for the first time....Don'k know or care what Joe had to give out about today.
Looking forward to many more summers not having to listen to his self publicising bullshit 

[Mikhailov]

In addition to some of the points already made IMO the Gooch also failed to produce the goods against Cross in a few club games. James Morgan completely nullified him in 1 particular game that springs to mind. It is easy to produce for Kerry as they coast through 75% of their games against crap teams. A player should always be judged on what he does when his team is in trouble, not when they are cruising!. IMO, he is not even in discussions for all time great status. Not in same league as Canavan, Murphy, Joyce, McConville, McDonnell and a few others.