Joe Brolly

[stringbean]

The problem with Joe's suggestion is that the kicked ball into a forward line will be limited. If you have a midfielder who beats his man to the kickout and turns him (easily done given the large volume of room in the midfield area), any player with any sense will carry the ball at the defence to make a 7 on 6 situation as opposed to kicking it into a full forward line that where space is at a premium - 12 players instead the 50.

What we'll be left with is a game dominated by the fittest team

[dferg]

Yes, but that's what used to happen in football, now some teams simply bring everyone back into their defence which adheres to the most basic defensive reality - fill up the space in the scoring zone and it becomes difficult for your opponents to score. There's no thoughtfulness to that, no imagination being used to solve a problem like a big full forward or a fast full forward line. It is bog basic stuff and is shite to watch particularly if it becomes the norm which appears to be the case.

It's a myth that tactics only began in 2003 and that before that every team stood 1 to 15 in there zone.  Short kickouts is a dangerous tactic, if the other team press high up the pitch then 1 mistake and they can walk it into the net.  The same with having 3 or 4 players tackling 1 player, if they get it wrong the other team have 3 players somewhere unmarked.  Take the famous incident in 2003 where Darragh O'Se tried to bull his way through 4 players.  Around 58 second in below video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUh5xsyz1E


He had 2 or 3 chances to dump the ball off before he lost it that would have opened Tyrone up.  Corofin and Crossmaglen at club level have shown that they can beat defensive systems by moving the ball quickly through the feet into the full forward line before the other team gets a chance to set up defensively.

[ck]

I was a neutral at a club game at the weekend (my brother in law played for one of the teams). It was div 2 so poor enough standard. Both sides played 13 behind the ball. All the manager shouted on the line was "get back, get back lads" When they had the ball he hadn't a word to say. Basically you now have managers and "coaches" who coach men back tactics but are clueless on other aspects of the game.

At least Brolly speaks up with ideas which lead to debate. Others say nothing except criticise when ideas are proposed.

For the record I left the game at half time and won't be back. The game as we knew it is absolutely dead and needs revived.

[brokencrossbar1]

Lads I will stick up the link when it becomes available but last night we gave an exhibition of how to play the game, and that involved short kickouts and all!!  Football is far too easy but is being complicated by people who do not have the conviction to play the game as it should be in case they are found out.

Maybe if Cross had to kick the ball to midfield they would not have won so easy!

On the other hand Hearty was very good with his delivery from kick outs - let and right footed.

In fairness, the ball was kicked to the MF a fair few times and we won most of them too.  Liked the right footed kick outs myself 

I have to agree with BCB (quel surprise) that the Cross game included short kickouts and disproved the need for a long kick out. I suppose the difference is that the ball was then kicked up the field in two or three foot passes, not moved sideways for 10 minutes.

I hardly think cross playing in one of the weakest club championships around prove anything . In a game between two competitive teams all teams revert to type . Which isn't a blanket defence. It's the Battle of the bulge

Point is no matter if it's the first round of the championship or the AI club final, we play the same way and generally win most games.  The key to the whole thing is the approach to how you want to win the game. Many clubs and counties have outside managers (I am an outside manager in a small club too so I'm speaking from experience) and each outside manager has his own ideas but, as I personally have found, when a few results go against you the pressure starts building about the style of football, sweepers, set up not to lose as opposed to going out to win. As a result the football retracts into a 'keep it safe' mode and players then become reluctant to express themselves as managers are under pressure and tell them to play the safe way. This leads to sterile training, sterile games and sterile players. Cross are one of the few clubs that have exclusively in house managers. As a result they have been able to maintain a consistent approach across all levels in terms of how the game is coached and played.  This is reflective of club football but club football is reflective of the county game.

[dferg]

I was a neutral at a club game at the weekend (my brother in law played for one of the teams). It was div 2 so poor enough standard. Both sides played 13 behind the ball. All the manager shouted on the line was "get back, get back lads" When they had the ball he hadn't a word to say. Basically you now have managers and "coaches" who coach men back tactics but are clueless on other aspects of the game.

At least Brolly speaks up with ideas which lead to debate. Others say nothing except criticise when ideas are proposed.

For the record I left the game at half time and won't be back. The game as we knew it is absolutely dead and needs revived.

Would Corofin be All Ireland champions if they played like that?  I doubt it.  They have some very good players but no superstars.  They play as a team and move the ball fast with there forwards getting out in front of the full back line.

[J70]

Brolly's suggestion sounds at least worth a try to see if it's workable. Could be done in the January competitions and then maybe the league and take it from there.

Where would we play Michael Murphy though! :p

[LeoMc]

Whilst the XMG model is one all clubs can aspire to, consistent, quality coaching to integrate new players, at IC level Managers do not get the luxury of time. There is serious pressure heaped on them by Joe and his colleagues in the 4th estate, as well as by supporters. That pressure has become more personalised, not just on bar stools but in TV studios and it would be an incredibly foolhardy Manager who would expect the time and freedom to develop a game plan beyond the quick fix of low risk defensive football.

[Zulu]

The problem with Joe's suggestion is that the kicked ball into a forward line will be limited. If you have a midfielder who beats his man to the kickout and turns him (easily done given the large volume of room in the midfield area), any player with any sense will carry the ball at the defence to make a 7 on 6 situation as opposed to kicking it into a full forward line that where space is at a premium - 12 players instead the 50.

What we'll be left with is a game dominated by the fittest team

I would completely disagree with this. If you won the ball in midfield and turned your man I would expect the midfielder to deliver the ball long into his full forward line and I'd imagine most would feel that's the most effective way to attack.

It's a myth that tactics only began in 2003 and that before that every team stood 1 to 15 in there zone.

But nobody is saying that, we all accept there have been tactics for a very long time in football but just not the utterly defensive football that is becoming more common.

Corofin and Crossmaglen at club level have shown that they can beat defensive systems by moving the ball quickly through the feet into the full forward line before the other team gets a chance to set up defensively.

That only works if you're playing against a team that gets bodies back quickly but some teams are now keeping players back and if that happens then long kicking into the full forward line is totally pointless.

Look, you could go around this a hundred times but we are seeing and hearing of more and more games where teams are looking to not lose rather than win. As BC1 says, managers are under pressure to deliver results and the easiest way to do that is to go defensive. And the best way to counter that is to go defensive yourself and patiently retain possession. And that is often fairly putrid to watch.

[Hereiam]

Don't soccer teams put 10 men behind the ball over in England and there isn't the same outcry as what is happening here. Its nothing new it just needs a bit of extra training/skill/thinking by managers to find a way to counter act it. No need for any rules to be changed for gods sake just let the dam game sort itself out.

[Zulu]

Soccer is a totally sport as are basketball, rugby and American football what is ok in them is not necessarily ok in football. Besides they are world sports with proper seasons rather than the elongated warm up circuit that is the league and then the utter pressure of the league. It is fully understandable that in those circumstances managers opt for safety first football. Just look at Jim Gavin, hammered for losing to Donegal as naive rather than lauded for being brave enough to back his players.

[J70]

Soccer is a totally sport as are basketball, rugby and American football what is ok in them is not necessarily ok in football. Besides they are world sports with proper seasons rather than the elongated warm up circuit that is the league and then the utter pressure of the league. It is fully understandable that in those circumstances managers opt for safety first football. Just look at Jim Gavin, hammered for losing to Donegal as naive rather than lauded for being brave enough to back his players.

Gavin was lauded left, right and center for Dublin ' s cavalier approach,  allied to a very strong bench/squad, being apparently unbeatable and the saviour of Gaelic football.  Until it wasn't.  Everyone was very smart in retrospect. I suppose Gavin could be criticized for not reacting on the day as things unfolded, but Donegal scored 3-7 or whatever it was in the space of 15 or so minutes either side of halftime. It all happened so quickly. Outside of the Donegal camp and one or two minor Ulster pundits, NO ONE saw that vulnerability or, if they did, thought it would be such a factor.

[LeoMc]

Soccer is a totally sport as are basketball, rugby and American football what is ok in them is not necessarily ok in football. Besides they are world sports with proper seasons rather than the elongated warm up circuit that is the league and then the utter pressure of the league. It is fully understandable that in those circumstances managers opt for safety first football. Just look at Jim Gavin, hammered for losing to Donegal as naive rather than lauded for being brave enough to back his players.

That is my greatest problem with Brolly. on one hand he will slaughter a manager for being naive and leaving his defense exposed or for not double marking a danger man on the other he would slaughter the same Manager for setting up more defensively. You have only to look back at his recent comments on Grimleys Armagh and on Cavan.

[Zulu]

Yes LeoMc, I completely agree but this isn't about Joe Brolly or any other pundit. Some lads are trying to make out we'd all be happy with the current state of football only for a few high profile pundits moaning, we wouldn't. What Brolly said about Grimley was a disgrace and I couldn't care less what Joe thinks. He'll have his opinions and I'll broadly agree with some and disagree with others. But you're right insofar as we can't hammer coaches for being somewhat cavalier and then if they get beaten hammer them for going ultra defensive.

I don't envy current IC managers now as they have amazing talent at their disposal but they only have two cup competitions to play in (the provincial and all Ireland championships). Most have little hope of winning either and all but a handful have a chance of winning the main one. Therefore I'm not surprised that managers now use the league to fine tune a system that will make them competitive and stave off the daft criticism they receive when beaten by a team that could and possibly should beat them most days.

I've been on here a good bit complaining about defensive football but if I was given an IC job tomorrow would I play traditional football? Highly unlikely if I'm honest, certainly not unless I had a top 5 team. But one of the reasons for that is I wouldn't last two years playing traditional football unless I was winning. If I (or a lot of coaches) were given time you might be able to work on a more positive system that would also be a winning one but nobody wants a winning team 3 years from now, they want one now.

[LeoMc]

Yes LeoMc, I completely agree but this isn't about Joe Brolly or any other pundit. Some lads are trying to make out we'd all be happy with the current state of football only for a few high profile pundits moaning, we wouldn't. What Brolly said about Grimley was a disgrace and I couldn't care less what Joe thinks. He'll have his opinions and I'll broadly agree with some and disagree with others. But you're right insofar as we can't hammer coaches for being somewhat cavalier and then if they get beaten hammer them for going ultra defensive.

I don't envy current IC managers now as they have amazing talent at their disposal but they only have two cup competitions to play in (the provincial and all Ireland championships). Most have little hope of winning either and all but a handful have a chance of winning the main one. Therefore I'm not surprised that managers now use the league to fine tune a system that will make them competitive and stave off the daft criticism they receive when beaten by a team that could and possibly should beat them most days.

I've been on here a good bit complaining about defensive football but if I was given an IC job tomorrow would I play traditional football? Highly unlikely if I'm honest, certainly not unless I had a top 5 team. But one of the reasons for that is I wouldn't last two years playing traditional football unless I was winning. If I (or a lot of coaches) were given time you might be able to work on a more positive system that would also be a winning one but nobody wants a winning team 3 years from now, they want one now.

I wasn't trying to blame Joe for the ills of the current game per se, just using him as an example of the pressure the IC Manager is under.
I would not be in favour of short term fixes and knee-jerk tinkering with the rules as whatever the changes the IC Manager will look to exploit them to the limit. The fixes have to be more long term, better structured seasons giving more regular football, better coaching of referees to implement the current rules consistently and better coaching of coaches and coaching officers.

[INDIANA]

Yes LeoMc, I completely agree but this isn't about Joe Brolly or any other pundit. Some lads are trying to make out we'd all be happy with the current state of football only for a few high profile pundits moaning, we wouldn't. What Brolly said about Grimley was a disgrace and I couldn't care less what Joe thinks. He'll have his opinions and I'll broadly agree with some and disagree with others. But you're right insofar as we can't hammer coaches for being somewhat cavalier and then if they get beaten hammer them for going ultra defensive.

I don't envy current IC managers now as they have amazing talent at their disposal but they only have two cup competitions to play in (the provincial and all Ireland championships). Most have little hope of winning either and all but a handful have a chance of winning the main one. Therefore I'm not surprised that managers now use the league to fine tune a system that will make them competitive and stave off the daft criticism they receive when beaten by a team that could and possibly should beat them most days.

I've been on here a good bit complaining about defensive football but if I was given an IC job tomorrow would I play traditional football? Highly unlikely if I'm honest, certainly not unless I had a top 5 team. But one of the reasons for that is I wouldn't last two years playing traditional football unless I was winning. If I (or a lot of coaches) were given time you might be able to work on a more positive system that would also be a winning one but nobody wants a winning team 3 years from now, they want one now.

I wasn't trying to blame Joe for the ills of the current game per se, just using him as an example of the pressure the IC Manager is under.
I would not be in favour of short term fixes and knee-jerk tinkering with the rules as whatever the changes the IC Manager will look to exploit them to the limit. The fixes have to be more long term, better structured seasons giving more regular football, better coaching of referees to implement the current rules consistently and better coaching of coaches and coaching officers.

You can't coach physics Leo. This is one time where the rule makers need to intervene