Colm O'Rourke's need for a 'socialist' GAA

[Jinxy]

Wasn't O'Rourke one of the biggest cheerleaders for making Dublin better than everyone else back in the early 00's. I definitely remember his guff about how the GAA needs a strong Dublin (not that they were ever weak), that has turned out well for Leinster football anyway.

No.

[seafoid]

I had to laugh at Pat Spillane saying everything is grand and sure anyone could have predicted the last 4. Wait until the neoliberals take a hatchet to teachers pensions. 

[seafoid]

This is from 2014

GAA President Liam O'Neill has refuted claims that his comments about access to Sky Sports were insulting.
O'Neill was interviewed on RTÉ's Six One News after the announcement that Sky Sports had secured television rights to Gaelic Games for the first time, with a question focusing on subscriptions to the broadcaster.
The GAA President said that asking supporters to pay for the coverage was a trade-off for increased international access and fans without subscriptions or unable to afford them could go to the games or to somebody with Sky access.
Challenged that the GAA are sacrificing fans at home, O'Neill said that "there was not a family in Ireland at the moment that does not have a person abroad.
"In Australia, Britain, a huge number of Irish people abroad: they're going to get access that they've never got before."
He conceded that not every family in Ireland had access to Sky Sports, and said, "all they have to do [...] in many cases, is go to a person who has Sky.
"The trade-off is that the members of the families who are outside of Ireland will have access to our games."
Speaking on 2FM's Game On to presenter Damien O'Meara shortly afterwards, O'Neill responded to a listener's belief that his comments were insulting.
"I think terms like insulting are a bit too much. I was responding to a question on live television and it is much different from you and I talking here.
"Live television is a forum that doesn't give you much time to think or respond to. The line of questioning was pushing me in a certain line where he was trying to suggest that anybody that wanted to watch the game would have to pay the (over) €700 subscription. That is not true.
"You don't have to do it. You can go to the games. To say it is insulting is the sort of comment we get and is not really helpful to get comments like that."
"Those that want to constantly refer to those that won't get to see those games will harp on and quite frankly you couldn't please everybody anyway and that's the nature of it."
He added: "Paraic Duffy and I are as conservative and traditional as you will get in the GAA. We are looking at a package here that will satisfy the broad group of people that we are trying to satisfy.
"If we want to concentrate on the number of games that are going to go (from free-to-air), there are five extra games that are going to be televised this year.
"Compared to last year, they are only nine games, not 14, that will be exclusively with Sky. Some people are saying they think it's time the thing was shaken up and those people are going to be happy.
"Those that want to constantly refer to those that won't get to see those games will harp on and quite frankly you couldn't please everybody anyway and that's the nature of it.

[INDIANA]

O Rourke is right.

The GAA is a community based organisation built around volunteers and clubs

Currently we have two associations. The club and the elite county scene.

The GAA had the chance ten years ago to ensure he organisation stayed true to its amateur roots.

It bottled it and we have the mess we have today.

Only club volunteers are keeping this organisation together. i get more satisfaction watching my club playing a challenge match then I do going to Croke Park

[sid waddell]

The inter-county scene has always been elitist. That's the nature of it. That's what it's supposed to be.

One of Colm O'Rourke's excuses for why there is a gap between the big teams and the rest is that players think "it's too much effort".

Well, boo hoo.

The GAA is not an island. GAA players and coaches look at other sports and absorb thinking and practice from those sports.

It isn't Sky Sports or a "corporate agenda" driving the increase in fitness and physicality needed to compete at the top level.

It's the very nature of humanity that does it as players strive to be better.

Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal are able or have been able to compete with Dublin. Those counties take the game seriously.

The fact that others can't is a combination of two things.

One, the inter-county scene is representative sport. Inequality is a fundamental part of this. Dublin have under-performed for pretty much the entire history of the GAA. Their dominance now is only as it should be relative to their population.

Two, most counties don't take the game seriously enough to compete. That's fine. But stop blaming everybody else for that.

And all sports rely on grassroots volunteers to run them at local level.

The GAA is far from unique in this regard, but you wouldn't think so from listening to many GAA people.

[seafoid]

The inter-county scene has always been elitist. That's the nature of it. That's what it's supposed to be.

One of Colm O'Rourke's excuses for why there is a gap between the big teams and the rest is that players think "it's too much effort".

Well, boo hoo.

The GAA is not an island. GAA players and coaches look at other sports and absorb thinking and practice from those sports.

It isn't Sky Sports or a "corporate agenda" driving the increase in fitness and physicality needed to compete at the top level.

It's the very nature of humanity that does it as players strive to be better.

Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal are able or have been able to compete with Dublin. Those counties take the game seriously.

The fact that others can't is a combination of two things.

One, the inter-county scene is representative sport. Inequality is a fundamental part of this. Dublin have under-performed for pretty much the entire history of the GAA. Their dominance now is only as it should be relative to their population.

Two, most counties don't take the game seriously enough to compete. That's fine. But stop blaming everybody else for that.

And all sports rely on grassroots volunteers to run them at local level.

The GAA is far from unique in this regard, but you wouldn't think so from listening to many GAA people.

There is a difference between top class and what we have now. Teams have always had to serve an apprenticeship of experience and playing efficiently as a unit to win. In the past every so often a team would arrive like a comet, blazing its trail. The Down team of the 60s or the Meath team of the 80's were excellent in footballing terms and knew how to play as a team but it wasn't a structural issue. It's one thing to get a group with the right talents together and bring them to maturity with the right balance of experience. It is another to break through the cartel. The question is whether the natural process of growth of teams is being disrupted by the ecology of power.

Neoliberalism has heavily influenced soccer which is a purer money play. Before the Premier League was established Man Utd had won 7 Leagues.  In the 25 years since the top team broke away it won 12 premier leagues.

Before neoliberal money turned up in the European Cup it was possible for teams from Eastern Europe to win. Colm O Rourke's argument about teams being interested is only half valid if the structure does not work for or support them.  Ajax can't win the CL now either.
And you wouldn't call Ajax lazy.

Dublin and Kerry always win all Irelands. The long term average is nearly 50%. But the percentage won by BMW counties and the likes of Cork and Meath can vary a lot.

One of the things about now is that it takes quite a few years for players to be turned into elite gaelic football players.

It takes years to build the physique. Sometimes it needs illegal help. There is an economic commitment. Someone has to.pay for it. Some players are not interested. Because it's not purely about sport any more. It is about something else.
Injuries are more complicated. Some of them are for life. So you need a GPA. It has a logic of its own


I think there are 3 issues

The economic context is very important. The model of the Gaelic footballer today has huge implications for how the championship evolves.
We have to ask what the point of the Gaelic football championship is.
Is Croke Park too expensive for an amateur organisation ?

[sid waddell]

Ajax or Celtic or eastern European teams can't win the Champions League now because association football is a free market, with clubs who are lucky enough to lie within four (two, really) major European leagues, or have oil money like PSG, having all the economic power to sign all the best players from all over the world.

It's not a remotely comparable model to GAA. Dublin can't go out and sign Lee Keegan or James O'Donoghue every summer.

What Dublin have done is similar to what Germany have done at international level. You can't go out and sign players, but when a powerhouse with a tradition and a big population gets their act together it's very difficult to stop.

Cork are now on the verge of doing the same in hurling as Dublin have done in football.

[seafoid]

Ajax or Celtic or eastern European teams can't win the Champions League now because association football is a free market, with clubs who are lucky enough to lie within four (two, really) major European leagues, or have oil money like PSG, having all the economic power to sign all the best players from all over the world.

It's not a remotely comparable model to GAA. Dublin can't go out and sign Lee Keegan or James O'Donoghue every summer.

What Dublin have done is similar to what Germany have done at international level. You can't go out and sign players, but when a powerhouse with a tradition and a big population gets their act together it's very difficult to stop.

Cork are now on the verge of doing the same in hurling as Dublin have done in football.

Money centralises sporting power and it correlates with population. So Madrid and Milan and London and Manchester win but Amsterdam is too small.

GF is nominally amateur. It is like farming cattle. It takes time for the animals to reach maturity. That has a cost. It has to be funded.
It takes longer than it used to as well.

[mup]

Dublin got to 6 finals in a row in the 70s, winning 3 of them. This team will pass. It's like Kerry in the 00s. They were on the brink of 3 in a row and nobody blinked.

It'll all be grand.

'This team'?

Look at Dublin 2011 and Dublin 2017. A lot of change. This is not a special team - this is a conveyor belt of talent being churned out.

There will be very few watching football in 5 years time.

[Rossfan]

Some farmers have more and better land than others Seafóidín.
I've read O'Rourke's rant and wonder what does he want exactly?
A handicap system?
Pay Inter County players?
Redraw representative boundaries?
Or what?
I'm naturally a bit tetchy this morning but I'm getting fed up to the eyeballs of rant after rant about all that's wrong with the GAA and football especially or anti Duffy rants but never a suggestion as to how to improve things.

[seafoid]

Some farmers have more and better land than others Seafóidín.
I've read O'Rourke's rant and wonder what does he want exactly?
A handicap system?
Pay Inter County players?
Redraw representative boundaries?
Or what?
I'm naturally a bit tetchy this morning but I'm getting fed up to the eyeballs of rant after rant about all that's wrong with the GAA and football especially or anti Duffy rants but never a suggestion as to how to improve things.

They do Rossfan but the thing about fuball.is the viewers. If the game is not interesting they will switch off. Especially the young wans.

[Hound]

Hurling is supposed to be the best game in the world, yet only a small handful of counties take it seriously. Why is that never talked about in the Sunday Game?

The hyperbole the Galway v Tipp match got at the weekend was utterly ridicilous. A great winning point and a very exciting finish completely masked all the bad play and particularly all the bad misses. Both teams were doing their best to bottle it. Kilkenny at their peak a few years ago would have beat either of those teams playing like that by 8 or 10 points.

Maybe we have to wait for the Dubs to get good before anyone is allowed criticise hurling (and we'll be waiting a while so)

[Dave like the tv channel]

Hurling is supposed to be the best game in the world, yet only a small handful of counties take it seriously. Why is that never talked about in the Sunday Game?

The hyperbole the Galway v Tipp match got at the weekend was utterly ridicilous. A great winning point and a very exciting finish completely masked all the bad play and particularly all the bad misses. Both teams were doing their best to bottle it. Kilkenny at their peak a few years ago would have beat either of those teams playing like that by 8 or 10 points.

Maybe we have to wait for the Dubs to get good before anyone is allowed criticise hurling (and we'll be waiting a while so)

Maybe so, but I don't think either of these two teams are at their peak. Kilkenny, in 2000, with the fear of becoming the first team to lose three All Ireland finals in a row might have shown as many nerves in a tighter game than Offaly gave them that year.

Hurling is going well at the moment. There are possibly more teams with a chance of winning a hurling title, than a football one.

How to fix this? Money. Take "Dublin's" plan that Croke Park drew up for them and force CBs to start implementing it. It's clearly a plan that works and should be doable across the country. Stop the Financial Doping of Dublin now. Pull the plug and see how long Dublin stays at the top.

According to Costello, it seems to be Dublin's choice as to whether they continue receiving the money or not. Is that not the tail wagging the dog? It's galling to think that the most populous county in the country, with the greatest access to financial and personnel resources has been funded to this extent for so long.

Read these:

http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2016/12/06/news/gaa-needs-new-revenue-to-help-weaker-counties-costello-819899/

Map of funding:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/gaa-investment-in-dublin-348120

Maybe Leitrim will never win an All Ireland, but ffs al least give them a chance to dream about it.

[APM]

Dublin got to 6 finals in a row in the 70s, winning 3 of them. This team will pass. It's like Kerry in the 00s. They were on the brink of 3 in a row and nobody blinked.

It'll all be grand.

'This team'?

Look at Dublin 2011 and Dublin 2017. A lot of change. This is not a special team - this is a conveyor belt of talent being churned out.

There will be very few watching football in 5 years time.

In an amateur world, the conveyor belt stops because so much effort is required by volunteers to keep the talent coming through.  The problem as I see it is that the counties on a stronger financial footing are able to pay for full time coaches, which removes this barrier to continued success.  This isn't just a Dublin issue.  The successful counties are very well funded and in this regard, success breeds success.  The more exposure and success, the more sponsorship and enthusiasm from supporters clubs etc. 

Its getting harder and harder for counties to break into that elite group. To do it and maintain it, counties probably need to focus on one code, have a large player / club base, long term plan and continuous high level of funding at a structural level.  Teams like Donegal, Armagh can make a short burst at it with a talented group of players, innovative tactics and intense training.  But this will not be maintained unless there is a long term plan in place at a structural level with financial backing for coaching in schools and clubs. 

There are reports from the GAA on the cost of preparing county teams annually.  Do we have reports on what is spent on coaching in clubs and schools.  That would tell us a lot more about the true position of counties as spending a fortune on county teams is just papering over the cracks if the foundations aren't in place. 

[Esmarelda]

Some farmers have more and better land than others Seafóidín.
I've read O'Rourke's rant and wonder what does he want exactly?
A handicap system?
Pay Inter County players?
Redraw representative boundaries?
Or what?
I'm naturally a bit tetchy this morning but I'm getting fed up to the eyeballs of rant after rant about all that's wrong with the GAA and football especially or anti Duffy rants but never a suggestion as to how to improve things.

Great reply Rossfan.

O'Rourke doesn't need to tell us what he wants. He only needs to tell us what is wrong. It's very easy. Throw in all the enemies; elitism, Sky etc. and you have yourself an article.
Next year's new format is definitely flawed. However, I read the document that accompanied the proposal (which most people seem unable to do) and I can clearly see the thinking behind them. But it's so much easier to talk about money, fat-cats and all the rest.

Colm needn't worry. The CPA is here with tens of thousands of members. They released their suggestions recently. In my opinion they're pretty embarrassing but I'm glad they published them all the same. Everyone is represented so Colm can rest at ease.

I notice at the end of the article Spilland is quotes as saying "............every county deserves a chance to compete for the All-Ireland championship." and then continues "After that, there is a problem and we need tiers, so you have different levels for different teams like you have in every county, minor, junior, intermediate, senior".

Is this not a contradiction?