Ruane will outline schools plan
The issue of the 11-Plus has proved controversial
Northern Ireland's education minister is due to speak to the assembly's education committee about her plans for primary school transfer.
It follows a contentious meeting of the executive during which three separate proposals for progress were rejected.
First Minister Ian Paisley said Caitríona Ruane's plans to reform academic selection could not go ahead without DUP and executive support.
Thursday's executive meeting ended without a full discussion of the plans.
Ms Ruane told the executive there were parties "who were anti-change in relation to education".
"It is disappointing that colleagues who claimed that they wanted a discussion on the proposals didn't even engage.
"What happened today was an attempt to frustrate change. I will not be frustrated and I am not demoralised."
Caitríona Ruane is to speak to the NI Assembly
However, the first minister said her education proposals were not the basis for a way forward.
Mr Paisley said: "The education minister can make any suggestion she wants to. However, it will not come into force until she has the support of the DUP and the endorsement of the executive.
"This is now a matter for the executive to deliberate and to decide upon. "
The minister's proposals have been criticised by grammar schools who said their acceptance of them would be "like turkeys voting for Christmas". But Frank Bunting of teachers' union, INTO, said the plan was a sensible and pragmatic roadmap out of the impasse.
Last December, Ms Ruane announced the transfer test, commonly known as the 11-plus, would come to an end in 2008.
Ms Ruane is to propose a form of testing to continue for three years, but there will be a limit on the number of pupils grammar schools can take on that basis.
A proposal to extend testing at age 11 would need legislation passed and the minister has warned of an "unregulated future", where schools run their own entrance tests.
It is believed the minister could commission new tests which encompass broader educational areas than the current transfer test.
These tests would be developed and marked by the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment, continuing for about three more years.
Why touch something that is working imo
Is Catronia Ruane to be taken seriously - all she can say is "I am the education minister and I will change the future" - reminds me of Stan Staunton... ;D
Ruane is a disaster...completely out of her depth and absolutely abysmal on Hearts & Minds last night.
Does anyone understand what is going to happen to kids in P6 now? Caítriona Ruane says that no one is confused. Well I am.
This is a really serious issue for parents of children around that age and I really would like to know what the plan is.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7632666.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7632666.stm)
Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on September 24, 2008, 08:49:35 AM
Does anyone understand what is going to happen to kids in P6 now? Caítriona Ruane says that no one is confused. Well I am.
50% of current P6 students will be able to transfer on the basis of academic selection, 30% the year after and 20% the year after that.
In 2013 all admissions will be on the basis of non academic criteria.
www.deni.gov.uk/education_minister_presents_proposals_to_executive_colleagues.pdf (http://www.deni.gov.uk/education_minister_presents_proposals_to_executive_colleagues.pdf)
I asked my nephew, who has just started p6, at the weekend whether he was doing the 11 plus next year and he said they don't know yet.
How can our children's education be so badly handled?
Quote from: Uladh on September 24, 2008, 10:40:07 AM
I asked my nephew, who has just started p6, at the weekend whether he was doing the 11 plus next year and he said they don't know yet.
How can our children's education be so badly handled?
You should put him out of his misery then and tell him the 11+ was abolished years ago.
Has this actually been agreed or is it one of a number of proposals? I think that's were the confusion arises.
If it's all agreed, fair enough, let's get on with implementing it and telling parents. If it's not, when will things be agreed?
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 10:41:39 AM
Quote from: Uladh on September 24, 2008, 10:40:07 AM
I asked my nephew, who has just started p6, at the weekend whether he was doing the 11 plus next year and he said they don't know yet.
How can our children's education be so badly handled?
You should put him out of his misery then and tell him the 11+ was abolished years ago.
Noone's told the teachers so - kids have been told that they don't know if the 11+ will be required.
This is not a party political issue. education is a foundation stone of society so spare us the propaganda donagh
Kids? Send them all downt pits.
Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on September 24, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
Has this actually been agreed or is it one of a number of proposals? I think that's were the confusion arises.
If it's all agreed, fair enough, let's get on with implementing it and telling parents. If it's not, when will things be agreed?
AFAIK she doesn't need agreement from the Uppers and Duppers as she is changing the existing system and not abolishing. Surely it's now the responsibility of the schools to inform parents of the options - at least that's what I heard one principle say on the radio yesterday.
Quote from: Uladh on September 24, 2008, 11:07:46 AM
Noone's told the teachers so - kids have been told that they don't know if the 11+ will be required.
I'm sure 9/10 year old have more important things to be worrying about that next years exams. Should have asked him how the CERN experiments were going.
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on September 24, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
Has this actually been agreed or is it one of a number of proposals? I think that's were the confusion arises.
If it's all agreed, fair enough, let's get on with implementing it and telling parents. If it's not, when will things be agreed?
AFAIK she doesn't need agreement from the Uppers and Duppers as she is changing the existing system and not abolishing. Surely it's now the responsibility of the schools to inform parents of the options - at least that's what I heard one principle say on the radio yesterday.
Eh? Who decides what the system should be, the schools or the department? If its based on geography then the likes of St Mary's Grammar Magherafelt could disappear.
Quote from: Orior on September 24, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
Eh? Who decides what the system should be, the schools or the department? If its based on geography then the likes of St Mary's Grammar Magherafelt could disappear.
The department has decided after academic selection has been phased out then selection should be on the basis of the some or all of the following:
Geography
· Parish
· Catchment area
· Nearest suitable school
Family
· Currently attending sibling only
· Eldest / first child
Community
· Feeder primary
Social disadvantage
· Looked after children
· Children entitled to Free School Meals
Tie Breakers, such as Random Selection
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 01:26:09 PM
Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on September 24, 2008, 11:03:40 AM
Has this actually been agreed or is it one of a number of proposals? I think that's were the confusion arises.
If it's all agreed, fair enough, let's get on with implementing it and telling parents. If it's not, when will things be agreed?
AFAIK she doesn't need agreement from the Uppers and Duppers as she is changing the existing system and not abolishing. Surely it's now the responsibility of the schools to inform parents of the options - at least that's what I heard one principle say on the radio yesterday.
I'd say if she does go ahead without widespread agreement there will be an application for Judicial Review. That could hold any change up for years.
The whole country is a joke at the min, (not funny one either), these are only proposals, the f**king executive wont even sit down together to talk about them and put them into practise, so in my eyes the whole f**king thing is a waste of time
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 01:37:49 PM
Quote from: Orior on September 24, 2008, 01:33:48 PM
Eh? Who decides what the system should be, the schools or the department? If its based on geography then the likes of St Mary's Grammar Magherafelt could disappear.
The department has decided after academic selection has been phased out then selection should be on the basis of the some or all of the following:
Geography
· Parish
· Catchment area
· Nearest suitable school
Family
· Currently attending sibling only
· Eldest / first child
Community
· Feeder primary
Social disadvantage
· Looked after children
· Children entitled to Free School Meals
Tie Breakers, such as Random Selection
what about ability?
Quote from: The GAA on September 24, 2008, 03:30:42 PM
what about ability?
In what, the long jump? Haven't heard anything, but I don't think so.
No harm to you Donagh but none of it is clear to me. Has the legislation been passed?
If it is all systems go for this new transfer procedure and all very clear to the Minister she's not doing a great job of explaining it.
Quote from: Bacon on September 24, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
No harm to you Donagh but none of it is clear to me. Has the legislation been passed?
From what I understand legislation is not needed. As Minister she has the authority to make changes to the current system - hence the gradual change over three years.
Quote from: Bacon on September 24, 2008, 03:41:48 PM
If it is all systems go for this new transfer procedure and all very clear to the Minister she's not doing a great job of explaining it.
According to the Irish News she had 500 primary school principles at a conference the other day. Presumably she was briefing them on the new procedures.
QuoteAccording to the Irish News she had 500 primary school principles at a conference the other day.
What are the 500 primary school principles?
How could anyone be expected to remember 500 principles. No wonder teachers complain about bureaucracy!
Quote from: Bacon on September 24, 2008, 03:48:57 PM
What are the 500 primary school principles?
How could anyone be expected to remember 500 principles. No wonder teachers complain about bureaucracy!
Well they can't complain about pay and holidays, so they'll be needing some excuse.
This is one policy SF have royally screwed up, I am all for abolishment but the fact so many P6 children are in limbo now is not acceptable. If this was in the Dail or across the water Ruane would be long gone.
I agree, the information we have is very clouded and there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding this.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on September 24, 2008, 03:56:06 PM
This is one policy SF have royally screwed up, I am all for abolishment but the fact so many P6 children are in limbo now is not acceptable. If this was in the Dail or across the water Ruane would be long gone.
I agree, the information we have is very clouded and there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding this.
I'm sure there are thousands of 9 year olds all over the six counties who can't sleep at night for worrying about whether they will be sitting the 11+ in over a years time.
Sorry Donagh, I forgot you got a hard-on every time SF is mentioned.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on September 24, 2008, 04:05:08 PM
Sorry Donagh, I forgot you got a hard-on every time SF is mentioned.
I work in education Doogie, so I'm sorry if a little informed posting gets in the way of your digs. But hey don't allow that to hold you back from the puerile stuff ::)
Quote from: hardstation on September 24, 2008, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 04:03:15 PM
Quote from: Doogie Browser on September 24, 2008, 03:56:06 PM
This is one policy SF have royally screwed up, I am all for abolishment but the fact so many P6 children are in limbo now is not acceptable. If this was in the Dail or across the water Ruane would be long gone.
I agree, the information we have is very clouded and there is a lot of ambiguity surrounding this.
I'm sure there are thousands of 9 year olds all over the six counties who can't sleep at night for worrying about whether they will be sitting the 11+ in over a years time.
That's a strange line to be taking, Donagh. "We'll f**k about here for a while, sure it's not as if the kids give a ballix."
Hradstation, my point is that there are proposals for next year, school principles have been informed, the parents are in the process of being informed, so all of these 'will someone please think of the children' lines are spurious as your average 9 year old will be more interested in whats under Barbies dress. It's the parents that are freaking out, egged on by the media - who for some reason aren't actually reporting the proposals only the opposition to them. If you don't believe me Google the proposals to see how long it takes to find them compared to all of all the other shite from that arsehole Bloomfield. As you say the the kids don't give a ballix so you can leave them out of the arguments.
I will bow to your hands on experience though. I can only comment as a lay member of the public and for me the information from the Minister down is not good enough.
I will state again I want the transfer test abolished BUT there has to be guidelines for puplils entering the transfer years at school and at the moment there is not, hence the general public's frustration
Quote from: Doogie Browser on September 24, 2008, 04:15:31 PM
I will bow to your hands on experience though. I can only comment as a lay member of the public and for me the information from the Minister down is not good enough.
I will state again I want the transfer test abolished BUT there has to be guidelines for puplils entering the transfer years at school and at the moment there is not, hence the general public's frustration
Doogie, I published the link to Ruanes proposed guidelines on the previous page.
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 04:08:24 PM
I work in education Doogie, so I'm sorry if a little informed posting gets in the way of your digs. But hey don't allow that to hold you back from the puerile stuff ::)
If you work in education you would think you would know how to spell
"principal". It's usually on the head teacher's door. You must have noticed it as you're mopping the corridor floor.
Quote from: Bacon on September 24, 2008, 04:30:04 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 04:08:24 PM
I work in education Doogie, so I'm sorry if a little informed posting gets in the way of your digs. But hey don't allow that to hold you back from the puerile stuff ::)
If you work in education you would think you would know how to spell "principal". It's usually on the head teacher's door. You must have noticed it as you're mopping the corridor floor.
What the fcuks this, a spelling test? I'm working here as well so I apologise if I haven't time to spell check my posts when I access Gaaboard on the bosses time.
:D :D :D
so the soloution to having no transfer test is to have them all go to the nearest school, and that will solve all the problems? what a load of balls. so a kid that lives in Hamil Street in Belast Divis area is to go to school at Inst.? now thats all good if the lad has ability but if he's lacking good primary education before going to a grammer school it will only hinder this lads education further.
kids that normally go to secondary education (oh and i did) should be taught in smaller classes. more attention on the three 'R's reading, arithmetic and writting. the rest of the time should be spent on Vocational skills
having worked in an area that deals with kids when they leave school i sometimes wonder what they have been doing for the past 5 years!!!!!!! working out area is a major stumbling block, simple writting is a no no. every thing is text speak and hand writting, well, we'll just not go there.
kids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
Quotekids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
How can a test for a child at 11 years of age determine the level they are at for the rest of their lives?
Pints, I know where milltown is coming from and what he says has a lot of validity in it. I agree with him that some kinds of means/transfer test is essential because then a child's ability and needs can be determined, in the most tangible way that there is at the moment. Some people are geared towards vocational areas moreso than others, those that are wouldn't be shy in telling anyone so.
The suggestions from Sinn Fein are ludicrous in the extreme and will have a serious detrimental effect on the education of children. Lumping every child in to one stream will ultimately dilute education, imo.
QuotePints, I know where milltown is coming from and what he says has a lot of validity in it. I agree with him that some kinds of means/transfer test is essential because then a child's ability and needs can be determined, in the most tangible way that there is at the moment. Some people are geared towards vocational areas moreso than others, those that are wouldn't be shy in telling anyone so.
I agree some people are geared towards vocational stuff but how can you tell at 11 years of age?
I'm sure milltown will correct me if I'm wrong but what he's advocating is a test at 11 determining a child's life.
A test doesn't determine a child's ability - a child can be coached for 2 years to pass a test just like a child can have an off day and fail a test.
I don't see why all schools can not have the system that's in place in high schools. You enter the school you're put in a group - either a top academic group or a lower one (which hopefully in the future will provide more vocational opportunites) and as a child develops they can be moved to groups/classes which best suit them.
Maybe it shouldn't be held at 11. It should maybe be later, say 13/14 direction as generally, kids are more mature then than they are at 10.
Alongside some kind of transfer test should be the means for any student to opt out of it and go directly to a vocational route. Whether the right place for that is a school or a training centre of some kind remains to be seen.
Streaming doesn't work pints, it never has and it never will. It just reinforces in some kids that they are more stupid than others, that's not healthy.
Incidentally, the point milltown has about reading, writing and maths can not be refuted.
I agree 13/14 may be a good age for kids to decide what sort of route to take.
Quote
Streaming doesn't work pints, it never has and it never will. It just reinforces in some kids that they are more stupid than others, that's not healthy.
No it's not streaming that does that it's people and their snobbery. There should be as much emphasis on learning trades as their is on passing exams and going to College but there's not, it should be also stressed that a trade is as good as a degree. Now if a child isn't academic they may fail the 11+, go to a high school be placed in a low group, piss about for 5years and leave school barely fit to write their name when it doesn't need to be like that. They should be taught in the area that suits them and not deemed to be stupid because their not interested in learning a pile of stuff out of a text book.
It is high time that people realised that university is not the be all and end all too.
If you look at people coming out of university now I wonder what percentage a year are better off having done a degree than not. There are only so many careers that a degree lends itself as being beneficial to. I think that point could also be made about A levels too to be honest.
Don't get me wrong I have done well out of university but it's not everyone's cup of tea. The direction of someone's life should not be dictated by an exam at 11 but the current system doesn't do that really. If you don't go to a grammar school you can still do well and the choice can be made at 16, GCSE stage, where to advance to whether it be A levels or a trade.
I think the system is ok as is with regards to the 11 plus. I do think further on it is flawed.
The 11 plus will only be replaced by either another form of academic selection or the stupid system where you've to live in the area to go to the school.
Leave the thing as is - sure what harm did it ever do any of us?? There is no viable alternative that I can see. Changed the exams to 13/14 would change the fundamental structures of our school system and is not viable IMO.
What Ruane, the Shinners and all the 11-plus abolishionists can't seem to get into their heads is that selection will always exist. There will always be better schools than others. There were always be a "market" for perfectionism in schools and there will always be a "market" for doing the bare minimum.
In Northern Ireland for the past 40 years, places in the better schools have been determined by a simple IQ test. Perhaps not the most elegant or egalitarian of systems - but, regardless of religion, social status or background, every child in Northern Ireland has had a chance of attaining a top education.
Remove academic selection, and it will be replaced by financial selection. Perhaps not overnight, but over a period of years it will certainly happen. Elite schools will be able to charge elite fees, and top schools will be able to charge top fees. Parents will pay, just as they do for school in England, and for college in the USA, to send their kids to these schools. Even if they aren't bright kids, just walking in these circles will open doors for them in life.
Sending your offspring to these schools will be an easy option for the rich, and a passable option for the middle classes, but simply not an option for the working classes. I'll digress for a second and state that this will, in effect, become another financial penalty on middle classes who want to prosper, and that it will inevitably lead to less procreation in the middle classes. Meanwhile those people who never cared for an education will continue to churn out babies and speed up the braindrain, and populate the lazydrain.
Lastly, the problem in Northern Ireland isn't academic selection, but that successive Labour Governments, and now their Stormont equivalents, do not place any value in non-academic education. If our leaders would stop branding the trades and skills as equivalent to dropping out, and instead reinforce their place, their abolsute need, in society, then students - even those as young as eleven - might not feel so "tainted" at missing out on a Grammar School place. If they then aimed a large portion of secondary/comprehensive education at teaching students key skills for life, then those school days would also be a more enjoyable, productive and fondly-remembered time.
Too many kids feel they have to go to Grammar School for the wrong reasons.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 24, 2008, 08:54:36 PM
Quotekids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
How can a test for a child at 11 years of age determine the level they are at for the rest of their lives?
It shouldn't but at 11 you move schools - end of!
Academic selection at 11 is dicey as it is definitely a bit early for exams with such a big impact. However I don't think we can or should do away with selection, and something like the Dixon Plan in Portadown is probably a good alternative where everyone does an exam at 14 to determine if you go down the more academic route of grammar school or go to a secondary school and then onto tech for either vocational qualifications or A levels.
The government would be better fitted if it pumped much needed investment into secondary schools so that pupils going there get an education every bit as good those going to grammar schools albeit in a style suited to their ability. Ruane made an absolute hash of this and if we were actually playing at real politics like in the big house in London she'd have been out on her ear months ago!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 24, 2008, 09:21:45 PM
QuotePints, I know where milltown is coming from and what he says has a lot of validity in it. I agree with him that some kinds of means/transfer test is essential because then a child's ability and needs can be determined, in the most tangible way that there is at the moment. Some people are geared towards vocational areas moreso than others, those that are wouldn't be shy in telling anyone so.
I agree some people are geared towards vocational stuff but how can you tell at 11 years of age?
I'm sure milltown will correct me if I'm wrong but what he's advocating is a test at 11 determining a child's life.
A test doesn't determine a child's ability - a child can be coached for 2 years to pass a test just like a child can have an off day and fail a test.
I don't see why all schools can not have the system that's in place in high schools. You enter the school you're put in a group - either a top academic group or a lower one (which hopefully in the future will provide more vocational opportunites) and as a child develops they can be moved to groups/classes which best suit them.
100% correct - I know parents who "coached" their kids from as young as 7 - wtf - let the kids live a little!!
Quote from: Handy on September 24, 2008, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 24, 2008, 08:54:36 PM
Quotekids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
How can a test for a child at 11 years of age determine the level they are at for the rest of their lives?
It shouldn't but at 11 you move schools - end of!
I moved at 14.
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 11:03:57 PM
Quote from: Handy on September 24, 2008, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 24, 2008, 08:54:36 PM
Quotekids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
How can a test for a child at 11 years of age determine the level they are at for the rest of their lives?
It shouldn't but at 11 you move schools - end of!
I moved at 14.
If you were kept back - sobeit - maybe for the best.
Quote from: hardstation on September 24, 2008, 11:08:09 PM
Exams at 18 are worse. Tis balls when you just want to get wrote off, some fecker hands you an A-Level paper.
Ms Ruane, sort it out!!
Aye but you are a big boy by then and apparently able to make decisions for yourself e.g. will I go and buy a barrack and lie in the park or will I get the books out! Anyway sure you can batter away at A levels until you nail the results you need!
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 24, 2008, 11:12:13 PM
Quote from: hardstation on September 24, 2008, 11:08:09 PM
Exams at 18 are worse. Tis balls when you just want to get wrote off, some fecker hands you an A-Level paper.
Ms Ruane, sort it out!!
Aye but you are a big boy by then and apparently able to make decisions for yourself e.g. will I go and buy a barrack and lie in the park or will I get the books out! Anyway sure you can batter away at A levels until you nail the results you need!
A?
This is a classist policy (is there such a word? and if so, apologies for the awful pun) and the woman is a complete buffoon.
If some good comes out of this, hopefully people will realise the type of muppets we have up on the hill.
......if I can't play cops and robbers I'm going home :-[
Occupied 6 counties assembly is a complete joke - egotisical wankers thinking they can make a difference because .............. what, done time, hate prods, hate taigs, hate life - need to be on camera - need to .... f**k off and elect real politicians!!
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on September 24, 2008, 09:10:31 PM
I agree with him that some kinds of means/transfer test is essential because then a child's ability and needs can be determined, in the most tangible way that there is at the moment.
The suggestions from Sinn Fein are ludicrous in the extreme and will have a serious detrimental effect on the education of children. Lumping every child in to one stream will ultimately dilute education, imo.
The transfer test is essential to test the childs ability in what?
The ministers proposals don't say anything about lumping every child in the "one stream".
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on September 24, 2008, 09:37:25 PM
Alongside some kind of transfer test should be the means for any student to opt out of it and go directly to a vocational route. Whether the right place for that is a school or a training centre of some kind remains to be seen.
Why not have a transfer test that tests the students 'vocational' skills in plumbing and send all those that don't come up to scratch on to grammar school.
Quote from: imtommygunn on September 24, 2008, 10:18:44 PM
I think the system is ok as is with regards to the 11 plus. I do think further on it is flawed.
The new proposals are not about getting more people into university but getting more of them to make theh right choices. We have one of the highest rates in western Europe of students leaving school with no qualifications - surely that is indication enough that there is something wrong with the system?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 24, 2008, 10:23:26 PM
What Ruane, the Shinners and all the 11-plus abolishionists can't seem to get into their heads is that selection will always exist.
Surely that should be:
"What Ruane, the Shinners, theh SDLP, the Catholic Church, the teaching unions, Queen's University academics, the majority of people here and all the 11-plus abolishionists..."
Quote from: Handy on September 24, 2008, 11:05:11 PM
Quote from: Donagh on September 24, 2008, 11:03:57 PM
Quote from: Handy on September 24, 2008, 11:00:47 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 24, 2008, 08:54:36 PM
Quotekids should be put in a level of where they are at. and a means/transfer test is the only way
How can a test for a child at 11 years of age determine the level they are at for the rest of their lives?
It shouldn't but at 11 you move schools - end of!
I moved at 14.
If you were kept back - sobeit - maybe for the best.
Obviously.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2008, 07:59:01 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 24, 2008, 10:23:26 PM
What Ruane, the Shinners and all the 11-plus abolishionists can't seem to get into their heads is that selection will always exist.
Surely that should be:
"What Ruane, the Shinners, theh SDLP, the Catholic Church, the teaching unions, Queen's University academics, the majority of people here and all the 11-plus abolishionists..."
Are you sure?
Without stating the obvious....
Why not just have secondary schools and vocational schools? Sure, the rich can continue to send their kids to uber expensive schools if they so wish but it's certainly not a guarantee of a better education.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 24, 2008, 10:23:26 PM
In Northern Ireland for the past 40 years, places in the better schools have been determined by a simple IQ test. Perhaps not the most elegant or egalitarian of systems - but, regardless of religion, social status or background, every child in Northern Ireland has had a chance of attaining a top education.
But that's not true. The 11+ was an unfair test where the chances of passing was deeply influenced by where you come from e.g. take a look at the pass rates on the Shankill Rd comared to the Malone area. If anything, it reinforces the class divdes. It's not even a good indication of the so called academic ability it is supposed to measure i.e. if you give me the results of key stage 1 or 2 tests I'd be able to give you a better prediction of which students will pass their first year of university than anyone else could give with 11+ results.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 24, 2008, 10:23:26 PM
Remove academic selection, and it will be replaced by financial selection. Perhaps not overnight, but over a period of years it will certainly happen.
Financial selection is already in place witnessed by the amount of children who get through the test because their parents can afford grinds.
Quote from: Chrisowc on September 24, 2008, 11:17:19 PM
This is a classist policy (is there such a word? and if so, apologies for the awful pun) and the woman is a complete buffoon.
Classist in what way Chris? In what way is she a buffoon?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 24, 2008, 10:23:26 PM
What Ruane, the Shinners and all the 11-plus abolishionists can't seem to get into their heads is that selection will always exist. There will always be better schools than others. There were always be a "market" for perfectionism in schools and there will always be a "market" for doing the bare minimum.
In Northern Ireland for the past 40 years, places in the better schools have been determined by a simple IQ test. Perhaps not the most elegant or egalitarian of systems - but, regardless of religion, social status or background, every child in Northern Ireland has had a chance of attaining a top education.
Remove academic selection, and it will be replaced by financial selection. Perhaps not overnight, but over a period of years it will certainly happen. Elite schools will be able to charge elite fees, and top schools will be able to charge top fees. Parents will pay, just as they do for school in England, and for college in the USA, to send their kids to these schools. Even if they aren't bright kids, just walking in these circles will open doors for them in life.
Sending your offspring to these schools will be an easy option for the rich, and a passable option for the middle classes, but simply not an option for the working classes. I'll digress for a second and state that this will, in effect, become another financial penalty on middle classes who want to prosper, and that it will inevitably lead to less procreation in the middle classes. Meanwhile those people who never cared for an education will continue to churn out babies and speed up the braindrain, and populate the lazydrain.
Lastly, the problem in Northern Ireland isn't academic selection, but that successive Labour Governments, and now their Stormont equivalents, do not place any value in non-academic education. If our leaders would stop branding the trades and skills as equivalent to dropping out, and instead reinforce their place, their abolsute need, in society, then students - even those as young as eleven - might not feel so "tainted" at missing out on a Grammar School place. If they then aimed a large portion of secondary/comprehensive education at teaching students key skills for life, then those school days would also be a more enjoyable, productive and fondly-remembered time.
Too many kids feel they have to go to Grammar School for the wrong reasons.
I would like a list of these better schools and the criteria you have used to decide how one school is better than another. A list of all schools from the best to the worst would also be useful.
I would also like details of this simple IQ test and the minimum required IQ to obtain a place in one of the better schools.
Saffron - if the be all and end all of education is examination results, then I'm sure you're quite capable of retrieving an academic results table from the internet somewhere. But this would probably be a pointless exercise, as you'll no doubt disagree with my rationale, and disagree also with the results. The truth though is that some schools are oversubscribed every year and some aren't...mostly due to to the performance of the school in examinations.
The 11-plus has evolved a tad over the years but at its heart, it is a test of verbal reasoning, non-verbal reasoning, arithmetic and writing. This makes it, in essence, an IQ test. Just as when adults take IQ tests, contributing factors mean that the results are not always a reflection of person's intelligence. Just as when adults take IQ tests, the brain be trained to perform the tasks within to a better standard. The system is flawed, but it isn't without purpose.
On your last point, the IQ required to pass the test is variable. Around 30% of children taking the exam will be awarded grammar school places. So the score required isn't a set figure, but related to every other examinee's score. Get in the top 30% overall and you should pass.
Initially it was supposed to be that 40% of primary school students were awarded grammar school places. Now, with primary school numbers falling, but the number of grammar school places remaining the same, up to 60% of primary school students now get grammar places. Hence the IQ argument is flawed. If it was a simple IQ test, then any student with an IQ in the top 40% should be guaranteed a place and no-one else.
My opinion would be that a school should reflect its community, for example, why should people be bussed in from Crossmaglen, Lurgan etc. to grammar schools in Newry while people living opposite the front gate may be excluded?
The 11 plus. In my opinion a complete and utter waste. Branding a child a failure at 11, only in Northern Ireland.
The big question is what happens to all those children who do not do the eleven plus but are taught in a class where pupils are?
Truth be told, most come into secondary school with lower than average reading, writing and maths levels because primary school teachers have other priorities. And you cannot blame them, because eleven plus results is what they will be judged on each year.
So already at 11 you have a sizeable minority who have been turned away from education and branded.
Then you have the pupils who fail. A failure at 11.
The question should be as to why the DUP are making noises about keeping the eleven plus. The one section of the community that is has been shown too completely fail is the protestant working classes, the mainstay of the DUP's support.
If you look at the standard of secondary education on religious lines, catholic secondary schools out perform protestant secondary schools from similar working class populations.
The other very simple reason as to why there is so much support for keeping the eleven plus in the grammar schools is the fear that some of their teachers would have of teaching pupils of lower ability.
Quote from: FermGael on September 25, 2008, 11:48:44 AM
The other very simple reason as to why there is so much support for keeping the eleven plus in the grammar schools is the fear that some of their teachers would have of teaching pupils of lower ability.
The first paragraph is surely an argument for not only abolishing academic selection but also faith maintained schools otherwise it isn't a level playing field?? School should be about educating children not indoctrinating them into one creed or another.
how many people on the site have failed their 11+?
and how many people have felt they were a failure because of it?
its a lot of nonsense. less and less people are not taking the exam, and the pressure that parents put on their kids (who do the exam) to pass an exam is unreal. that pressure then follows them right through school were they have to work far harder than the rest just to stay in touch.
entry level exams need to be in place. I'm all for changing the year till about 13/14 but this idea of kids running around feeling like a failure in balls. at a 11 years of age he's/shes more interested in anything other than exams and their future. it's the over demanding parents who want to keep up with the Jones.
in England they have the Comprehensive schooling going for years, stopped the 11+ years ago, is that what we want? kids in secondary schools need to be in smaller classes, they'll learn more. as for the ones with learning disabilities they should be catered for at specialised schools who have teachers with proper training for this
getting kids tutored is the thing they are all doing, (and long may it continue, my missus makes a few pound at it) but she knows within 1 or 2 sessions whether they will make the grade, she tells the parents straight off. parents never listen and ask for more teaching, brilliant
Quote
its a lot of nonsense. less and less people are not taking the exam, and the pressure that parents put on their kids (who do the exam) to pass an exam is unreal.
And you think the children aren't bothered when they fail?
so it's your abidding memory?
all i'm saying is this we dont want to go down the Comprehensive schooling we have in England. at 11 i was more bother when the Johnnies beat us in a under12 final at Casement.
did it stop me getting a good job after i failed my 11 plus? no. did i feel a failure? no. was i bothered? yeah but at the time that was my level. all kids develop at different stages. and if there was an exam at 13/14 were you can transfer to another school (though i think ya can do that) then thats what kids should do who are unlucky on the day not to pass.
I passed mine.
You mighten have been bothered but a lot of children do be bothered. You said yourself kids develop at different stages so why test them at 11? What's the point?
English schooling may not be perfect but I don't think a lot of the faults are necessarily down to the lack of a 11+
its not the best schooling. N.Ireland has consistently out scored the schools in the rest of Britain and beyond, yes there may be a gap between those passing at GCSE levels than ones not but thats not the fault of the 11 plus.
my thinking would be for the government to reduce the class sizes thus giving the students more attention and the teachers less hassle and added time for preparing good lessons were the kids can have achieveable goals and targets, the curriculum is far too taxing for our under achievers. if they were to stick to the main subjects then we could bring that gap closer.
Quoteits not the best schooling. N.Ireland has consistently out scored the schools in the rest of Britain and beyond, yes there may be a gap between those passing at GCSE levels than ones not but thats not the fault of the 11 plus.
the North out scoring Britain does not mean the 11+ is the way to go.
Quote
my thinking would be for the government to reduce the class sizes thus giving the students more attention and the teachers less hassle and added time for preparing good lessons were the kids can have achieveable goals and targets, the curriculum is far too taxing for our under achievers. if they were to stick to the main subjects then we could bring that gap closer.
And all that can be done under the one roof, there's no need for tests at 11 to determine the apparent smart kids.
I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on September 25, 2008, 09:15:08 PM
I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose
But those who fail a test couldn't go down the academic route?
You do realise that right there you are saying academic route - success, vocational - failure?
Sorry i was continuing on from your post, englands method (like most things) is not great because they dropped the 11+, IMO
Yes it can be done under the one roof but there is no room in these schools, specialist teaching could help bring up the standard so that everyone is achieving.
getting the right formula is difficult, but i cant see where it has made our education bad (the 11+ that is)
it's strange that most of the posters have passed the 11+ would be the ones who want it to go, if it were voted on, nationally, would it be scrapped or kept?
and why can they not go down the academic route? i didnt but went through a vocational route got the qualifications and now teach, it was not the direct route but very profitable. no failure.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on September 25, 2008, 09:17:47 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on September 25, 2008, 09:15:08 PM
I honestly believe that selection is the only way to go as long as kids can opt out of it and go for something vocational if they so choose
But those who fail a test couldn't go down the academic route?
You do realise that right there you are saying academic route - success, vocational - failure?
Not at all pints. I mean that kids should be given a choice in terms of what they want to do and what will best fit their needs.
I know many adults who have went and done degrees part-time etc who didn't have as much as an O level when they left school.
By and large, a young person knows whether they want to bury their head in books or learn a trade.
QuoteYes it can be done under the one roof but there is no room in these schools,
I don't buy that, a lot of high schools operate a system where top classes would be similar to grammar school classes and there is no reason why the kids in other classes couldnt be given more vocational options. In high schools if you're not fit for the class you're in or you're developing and appear able for a higher class you're moved which makes sense to me and a much better system than one that depends on a on off test.
As for a national vote - it would be interesting but I'd imagine it would stay - there's an awful lot of snobs and idiots out there who go on with shite like "my little tommy has to go to a grammar school" ::)
Quote
and why can they not go down the academic route? i didnt but went through a vocational route got the qualifications and now teach, it was not the direct route but very profitable. no failure.
And you weren't able to go down a direct route because you failed a test when you were 11! Doesnt make much sense.
QuoteNot at all pints. I mean that kids should be given a choice in terms of what they want to do and what will best fit their needs.
It may not be intentional but a test for selection is saying one thing i.e. vocational is a failure. If I said to you I'll ask you a question and if you get it right you'll get this biscuit but if you get it wrong you get this other biscuit you'll automatically think/get the impression the first biscuit is the best one!
QuoteI know many adults who have went and done degrees part-time etc who didn't have as much as an O level when they left school.
And most of them because they weren't given the chance when they were at school.
ok it's fair to say that Pints your in favour of dropping the exams thingy at 11, whats next? when the poor kids fail at 16 years of age then 18 and when they go to college fail to get anything there.
so you want the Comprehensive system? or have you come up with a plan
Quote from: milltown row on September 25, 2008, 10:02:14 PM
ok it's fair to say that Pints your in favour of dropping the exams thingy at 11, whats next? when the poor kids fail at 16 years of age then 18 and when they go to college fail to get anything there.
so you want the Comprehensive system? or have you come up with a plan
It's very simple. Kids go to local school. Kids get streamed into groups/classes, possibily based on primary school records where they can move throguh groups as they develop. Kids who aren't interested in reading text books provided with courses in practical stuff/get a head start on learing trades etc with it being pointed out to them that a plumber earns as much (if not more) than a teacher!
Pints did you fail your 11 plus by any chance?
As I said above I passed - not that it matters.
So whay are you so against it? We still need some sort of selection process to move kids from primary to post primary education. The 11+ isnt perfect, but nothing ever will be. At least its an independant test, if it were left up to teachers to decide who goes to grammar school there would be a lot of favouritism and if it comes down to money then that will be unfair also.
I've outlined how I think it should be above.
You are totally right Pints, if a kid is good at playing the tin whistle, let him play it, same applies to all subjects, talent will out in the end if is not strangled by an elitist education system set up to cater for a minority
smart ass ;D ;D
either way you look at it, there is pros and cons
it will end up with people moving closer to the schools that they think is best for 'our wee tommy' but with the current climate nobody will be moving for years, arent i glad that i live close to a good school
Quote
it will end up with people moving closer to the schools that they think is best for 'our wee tommy'
Yeah you'll get knobs doing that but it'll be a lot harder to move than it is to drag a child to tuition from their 7th birthday.
Taken form www.impartialreporter.com (http://www.impartialreporter.com)
QuoteSt. Michael's to maintain academic selection
St. Michael's College will become the second Catholic Grammar school in Northern Ireland to implement their own entrance exam for 2010; in direct confrontation with Education Minister Catriona Ruane.
On Tuesday, Lumen Christi Grammar School in Derry announced that they were having two "standardised reasoning" papers in October next year.
Principal of St. Michael's in Enniskillen, Eugene McCullough confirmed that the school will continue to admit boys on the basis of academic selection and has sent letters to feeder primary schools informing them that in 2010 the school will operate an entrance exam.
The news comes as primary school principals across the county admit that they are "frustrated" and "worried" with the absence of an agreement between the political parties at Stormont and Education Minister; Catriona Ruane's refusal to deviate from her proposals which aim to phase out academic selection over a three year period.
In June, Enniskillen Collegiate Grammar School announced that they would implement their own entrance exam (in line with 30 other Grammar schools in the north who are part of the Association of Quality Education-AQE).
Primary seven (P7) pupils are currently practising their test papers and will sit, what is supposed to be the final transfer test, in November. Meanwhile teachers are concerned about what their Primary Six (P6) pupils will face next year.
The fact that many primary school teachers are not willing to speak publicly about what teaching methods they are using to prepare their current P6 pupils for next year, illustrates the contentious nature of the issue.
Most primary school principals who did agree to be interviewed said they were teaching P6 pupils elements of the revised curriculum, with some "assuming" there would be some form of selection test next year and others waiting for "clarity".
Controlled primary schools have been contacted by the Collegiate Grammar School and Portora Royal school has called principals to attend a meeting at the school. Maintained primary schools have been contacted by St. Michael's College who have revealed that they will implement their own entrance exam. It is understood that Mount Lourdes Grammar school have not issued any statement to local primary schools.
"It's frustrating for parents of children in P5 and 6 who don't know what is happening," said Hazel Gardiner, Principal of Brookeborough Controlled Primary School.
"Catriona Ruane says that we do know what is happening in that we are teaching the revised curriculum but at the minute we have P6 and 7s in class together. We are trying to prepare P7s for the transfer test while trying to implement the revised curriculum." She added: "What happens these children next October and November; what will decide where they go?"
At St. Joseph's Ederney, Principal, James Kirk said: "We are like everyone else; waiting for clarity."
He added: "By law we are required to teach the revised curriculum. Parents are very worried that no one seems to know what is going on. We are hearing contradictory reports from all parties; it's an intolerable situation."
Meanwhile, Joan Cathcart at Derrygonnelly Controlled Primary School is incorporating some "formal teaching methods" into the revised curriculum.
"I am not afraid to say it; I am incorporating into numeracy and literacy; some of the more formal teaching methods but I am also integrating the revised curriculum," she stated.
Praising the revised curriculum, Mrs. Cathcart said: "There is a lot of positive work in the revised curriculum. It is trying to properly develop the whole child; academically, their thinking skills, personal development and research skills."
She added: "I have a composite class of P5, 6 and 7. The P7s are preparing for the transfer tests but it is hard to run with both teaching styles."
"We have been told that some Grammar schools will run entrance exams," Mrs. Cathcart continued.
"Portora are inviting us to a meeting to express our views as a feeder school; at least it's a Grammar School making an effort to take control."
At Killyhommon Primary School; Principal, Eileen McKenzie said:
"In absence of any decision on the eleven plus we are continuing in the same way as always.
"We are teaching P6 on the basis that there will be some kind of transfer test in 2010 because we have nothing else to work on."
She added: "We assume CCEA (the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment) have some transfer paper in lieu of no decision. It is general opinion that they will have to have some provision in place."
Ms. McKenzie continued: "One Grammar school told us in writing that they would continue with academic selection but since then they have changed that decision."
Training for the revised curriculum is still under way at Killyhommon. "The aim is to have the revised curriculum fully operational by 2010," Ms. McKenzie said.
Ms. McKenzie has a child in P6 and understands the concerns of parents.
"It's very frustrating, especially when the (education) Minister hasn't spoken."
She added: "Children in P5 and 6 are doing INCA (International Review of Curriculum and Assessment) tests. We are to form a pupil profile and the idea is that by 2010 the children would have built up a three year profile. We are doing them because they are statutory but we don't know much because the tests are computerised and are sent away for assessment; the school has no input."
At The Moat Controlled Primary School in Lisnaskea; Principal Felicity Humphreys claimed: "Officials in the Western Board have told me that if there is going to be a test it will be on English and Maths. I have been reassured that there is no science involved in a possible test."
She continued:
"The children are undertaking the revised curriculum and we are ensuring that literacy and numeracy standards are kept high as well. We are concentrating on them in case of a test."
The Western Education and Library Board (WELB) said they were "not in a position to comment" on the possibility of a replacement transfer test or what subjects it would concentrate on.
Meanwhile Mr. Eugene McCullough stated: "I can confirm that the Board of Governors of St Michael's College has decided that in the absence of any definitive and agreed plan and pending legislative clarity on academic selection, St Michael's College will continue to admit boys on the basis of academic selection and to provide education for boys from age 11 to 19."
When asked about what format the exam would take and why did the school this move despite the Catholic Bishops opposition to independent academic assessment tools in Catholic schools, Mr. McCullough declined to comment.
good old St Michael's. As a past pupil i am disgusted by this attitude.
I hope that Ruane tell's them where to go.
Lets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.
A Catholic school set up with the ethos of free education for all using land that was donated it to by the parish. A disgrace.
The only decent thing about this statement is the it shows the decreasing say the church is having over education. The bishops are being ignored
QuoteLets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.
Catroina Ruane can't withdraw the schools funding because the Dept of Ed doesn't fund this type of school directly. She could stop playing the teachers wages but I can't see her ever being so stupid to try and do that. She has said that her Dept won't pay for the entrance exams. That'll show them! :D
Quote from: Bacon on October 02, 2008, 01:36:50 PM
QuoteLets see if they still sing the same tune if Ruane withdraws the funding.
Catroina Ruane can't withdraw the schools funding because the Dept of Ed doesn't fund this type of school directly. She could stop playing the teachers wages but I can't see her ever being so stupid to try and do that. She has said that her Dept won't pay for the entrance exams. That'll show them! :D
Maybe so Bacon. But what about when they are looking to redevelop the interior of the school or even build an extension.
As for not paying the teachers, why not??
If the school is not following what has been set by the Department of Education, then why should they be allowed to exist outside of the system? Surely they must face the consequences of their actions.
1 thing about the 11 plus is that there is a certain stigma about failing it. Even if you go on to further education and have a degree there is still a certain black mark at the top of your CV that anyone can get a degree these days. I say this as someone who didn't even sit the exam as my primary school teacher thought it would be a waste of time. I now have a math degree and partly due a certain paranoia about how not going to a grammer school looked sat and passed the MENSA entrance exams. My point is that if you fail an A level in politics you can to re-sit it but you only get 1 chance as an 11 year old which can have a negative impact on all your future education. There are good things about the 11 plus, mostly for people who have passed it I would say though. Just to enphasise the point about about it having an impact on your future career, I recently clicked on the Northbrook technology website http://www.northbrooktechnology.com job section for a friend of mine, I was going to print out an application form for a job and I noticed the first question at the top of the page
Secondary
Grammar School
(please tick appropriate box)
Quote from: Maiden1 on October 02, 2008, 06:08:32 PM
1 thing about the 11 plus is that there is a certain stigma about failing it. Even if you go on to further education and have a degree there is still a certain black mark at the top of your CV that anyone can get a degree these days. I say this as someone who didn't even sit the exam as my primary school teacher thought it would be a waste of time. I now have a math degree and partly due a certain paranoia about how not going to a grammer school looked sat and passed the MENSA entrance exams. My point is that if you fail an A level in politics you can to re-sit it but you only get 1 chance as an 11 year old which can have a negative impact on all your future education. There are good things about the 11 plus, mostly for people who have passed it I would say though. Just to enphasise the point about about it having an impact on your future career, I recently clicked on the Northbrook technology website http://www.northbrooktechnology.com job section for a friend of mine, I was going to print out an application form for a job and I noticed the first question at the top of the page
Secondary
Grammar School
(please tick appropriate box)
Exactly, well said.
And another...
QuoteThird grammar set to test pupils
A third Catholic grammar school has said it intends to run an independent entrance exam.
St Patrick's in Downpatrick has written to its feeder primary schools and said it will continue to choose pupils on the grounds of academic ability.
Education minister Caitríona Ruane has said she will act against schools helping pupils prepare for such tests.
Two other Catholic grammar schools have already said they will set independent entrance tests.
Catholic bishops also wrote to Catholic schools last month telling them they do not approve of independent entrance exams.
and plenty more on the way apparently.
Quote from: Maguire01 on October 03, 2008, 01:30:24 PM
And another...
QuoteThird grammar set to test pupils
A third Catholic grammar school has said it intends to run an independent entrance exam.
St Patrick's in Downpatrick has written to its feeder primary schools and said it will continue to choose pupils on the grounds of academic ability.
Education minister Caitríona Ruane has said she will act against schools helping pupils prepare for such tests.
Two other Catholic grammar schools have already said they will set independent entrance tests.
Catholic bishops also wrote to Catholic schools last month telling them they do not approve of independent entrance exams.
and plenty more on the way apparently.
Yes, indeed there will, but each will require a different level of "intelligence" for entry.
For example, in 2004-05 (the most recent figures I can put my hands on), all of Lumen Christi's intake achieved a grade A in their transfer test. Only 68% of St. Mick's intake and slightly less than 55% of the Red High's boys had a grade A, with both schools taking students who achieved Cs. 26 grammar schools had pupils who got grade Ds.
Surely there should be the same minimum level of "intelligence" required for entry into all grammar schools.
Quote from: Donagh on September 25, 2008, 09:07:06 AM
Quote from: Chrisowc on September 24, 2008, 11:17:19 PM
This is a classist policy (is there such a word? and if so, apologies for the awful pun) and the woman is a complete buffoon.
Classist in what way Chris? In what way is she a buffoon?
Classist as in this 'equality' sh*te that keeps getting trotted out. Under priveliged children not getting a chance. If you are good enough you will 'pass' the 11 plus. I wasn't and didn't.
As for her being a buffoon? Where will I start???
...seems a few folks probably agree with me
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7650649.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7650649.stm)
Ruane is a busted flush. The grammar schools are grasping the nettle because she refused to bring clarity to her proposals and instead trotted out the same tired old lines about "engaging with stakeholders". It's time she was put out to pasture.
Quote from: Take Your Points on October 03, 2008, 07:29:20 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on October 03, 2008, 01:47:59 PM
Surely there should be the minimum level of "intelligence" required for entry into all grammar schools.
Never thought we would hear this from you SS2.
Just highlighting an absurdity of the current system. One of many.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on October 03, 2008, 10:35:29 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on October 03, 2008, 07:29:20 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on October 03, 2008, 01:47:59 PM
Surely there should be the minimum level of "intelligence" required for entry into all grammar schools.
Never thought we would hear this from you SS2.
Just highlighting an absurdity of the current system. One of many.
At least there is a current system.
So what will happen here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8542018.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8542018.stm)
QuoteDUP leader Peter Robinson has accused the Catholic Church of being intent on denying its young people a grammar school education.
He was speaking as the Church outlined proposals to dramatically change the maintained sector's post-primary education.
Cardinal Sean Brady launched the first step in creating a network of all ability schools on Monday.
But Mr Robinson said many Catholic parents were completely against this.
"The Roman Catholic Church appears determined to deny young people the opportunity of a grammar school education," he said.
"I know many Roman Catholic parents vehemently oppose this position. They too understand the importance of successful academic schools in the development of our society here.
"I am determined to ensure that an academic option is available to those from all backgrounds who wish to pursue this path."
The first minister said that while he believed in grammar schools, he did not think that future transfer to post-primary education had to involve a traditional test.
He said the replacement of the 11-plus with involved multiple exams "hardly seemed to be an educational advancement" and that he favoured computer adaptive testing (CAT), which looks at a child's ability over a longer time period.
The CAT method has been discussed in the past by those in favour of selection.
We have been and will continue throughout this process to consult beyond the Catholic network of schools and explore new ways of sharing resources, facilities and personnel
In CAT exams the questions become more or less difficult according to how well each batch of questions is answered.
Test scores over a number of years could then be used by post-primary schools to select pupils.
Launching the Catholic Church's proposals, Cardinal Sean Brady said Catholic schools would consult beyond their own sector to share resources.
The sweeping review of the maintained sector's post-primary education includes a central commitment to the ending of academic selection, but it also examines other ways of working.
"We have been and will continue throughout this process to consult beyond the Catholic network of schools," Cardinal Brady said.
"And explore new ways of sharing resources, facilities and personnel at local level to ensure that the best possible education for all children in our society is achieved."
Cardinal Brady said that he wanted politicians to move beyond "the narrow focus on academic selection and to engage in a wider, more inclusive discussion about how together we can provide the best possible system of education for every child in Northern Ireland".
Some grammar schools are thought to be unwilling to accept the end of academic selection.
Schools are now using unregulated entrance exams. The commission on Catholic education has already said that should not continue after 2012.
The commission is trying to tackle a reduction in the number of pupils, demands for a wider choice of subjects and the hierarchy's wish to end academic selection.
Gerry Lundy who directed the post-primary review said: "What we are trying to do is to move away from this narrow focus on academic selection.
Cardinal Sean Brady made the plans public on Monday
"To address that issue ... for the community and schools what the future is and what the shape of that future should be.
"This is a consultation process. What we are asking people to do is to respond to the challenges set out in the consultation."
Over the next four weeks, the commission will reveal the options open to clusters of schools in 17 different areas across Northern Ireland.
These include:
Some areas will see new colleges for children aged 11 to 15 and 14 to 19
There will be more amalgamations of groups of two and three schools
Some single sex schools could become co-educational and others may be federated, with two or more schools governed by one body
The commission wants a network of all-ability schools, removing the need for academic selection
The plans are aimed at meeting government policy objectives, including sustainable schools and the entitlement framework, a scheme designed to give pupils increased subject choice.
The review also aims to remove thousands of empty desks from the post-primary maintained sector.
Changes are expected to take place over the next decade rather than schools facing immediate upheaval.
It would see schools run by different Catholic religious orders come together in future mergers or collaborations.
The commission said that it will ask for feedback from schools and parents.
The principals of all grammar schools in Northern Ireland have been invited to a meeting on Monday night to see if they can agree on a single transfer test for this year.
Will be interesting to hear the Catholic Grammar response to this proposal.
Will they defy the church?? Interesting times ahead.
I still find it quite amazing that the party that is suppose to represent the Unionist working classes is for academic selection.
There's something a little amusing about watching the Catholic Church having to drag our society into the modern world.
Whilst it might be ironic to some that the Catholic Church have decided to present a plan to modernise the education system they are prepared to risk the ire of many by doing so. That aside they are presenting a value based approach to the modernisation of education in NI. Everyone (political parties and schools inc grammars) appear to accept that the 11Plus is wrong but few are prepared to take responsibility for working out alternative plans. This is what the Church and the Catholic schools are doing. Their plans may not be perfect, in fact they may be wrong in some instances, but at least they have spent three years working with schools to come up with plans open for consultation.
A sign of things to come..........
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11332120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11332120)
Quote
School disputes transfer test pupil sick before exam
A pupil denied grammar school entry after sitting the new transfer test produced no medical proof that he was violently sick the night before.
The claim was made in High Court by lawyers for Omagh Christian Brothers grammar school.
They claimed the potentially landmark challenge brought by the boy's family could not succeed.
The court also heard that the pupil only reported that he had been ill after receiving his results.
Turlough Montague QC, representing Omagh CB said: "The case that is advanced... does not deal with the failure to provide medical evidence.
"That, we say, is a complete bar to the applicant's entitlement to exceptionial circumstances and to any remedy before the court."
Mr Montague had urged the judge to resist adjourning the case involving Omagh CBS, arguing that his client had "a clean knock-out blow".
The barrister claimed: "This entire application, we say, is grounded on what is in fact a smokescreen to camouflage a point that is unanswerable in the case."
He said neither the boy nor his mother told anyone he was feeling unwell when he sat the assessment.
It was only after the pupil received his results that it was reported how he was violently ill the night before the test, the court heard.
Mr Montague further submitted that a GP's letter stated the boy had been anxious and unsettled due to recent episodes of bullying.
Monye Anyadike-Danes QC, for the child's mother, argued there were issues around the school's procedures which put it "at odds" with Department of Education guidance.
As well as the case involving Omagh CBS, the mother of a girl not given a place at St Patrick's Academy, Dungannon is also seeking to overturn the school's decision.
Neither child can be identified for legal reasons.
Mr Justice Deeny decided to adjourn both applications until next month after remarking on the "significant legal issues involved".
He added that in the case involving Omagh CBS an apparently "powerful submission" had been made on the school's behalf.
Both applications for leave to seek a judicial review were adjourned until Exceptional Circumstances Body (ECB) hearings take place early next month.
If that tribunal finds in favour of the families it would bring an end to proceedings before the High Court.
Those parents need to get their heads out of their holes.
This is exactly the same shite that was going on with the 11 plus. If a pupil didn't get the grade needed to get into the school of their choice they'd bring legal proceedings. Happened God knows how many times in my own school.
What right has a school to say to a child
"You are not smart enough to get into this school but its ok for your parent(s) to pay for the upkeep of this school through their taxes"
Quote from: Gaffer on September 17, 2010, 09:00:47 PM
What right has a school to say to a child
"You are not smart enough to get into this school but its ok for your parent(s) to pay for the upkeep of this school through their taxes"
That's not the topic raised by FermGael's post.
Like it or not, the grammar school's have retained policies of academic selection.
Quote from: gallsman on September 17, 2010, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on September 17, 2010, 09:00:47 PM
What right has a school to say to a child
"You are not smart enough to get into this school but its ok for your parent(s) to pay for the upkeep of this school through their taxes"
That's not the topic raised by FermGael's post.
Like it or not, the grammar school's have retained policies of academic selection.
Proper order.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 17, 2010, 09:56:57 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 17, 2010, 09:07:52 PM
Quote from: Gaffer on September 17, 2010, 09:00:47 PM
What right has a school to say to a child
"You are not smart enough to get into this school but its ok for your parent(s) to pay for the upkeep of this school through their taxes"
That's not the topic raised by FermGael's post.
Like it or not, the grammar school's have retained policies of academic selection.
Proper order.
Why?
I cannot believe i am tying this. I actually agree with Peter Robinson
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11555984 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11555984)
QuoteRobinson slams education system 'apartheid'
Peter Robinson called the Northern Ireland education system "a benign form of apartheid" The First Minister has described the Northern Ireland education system as a "benign form of apartheid".
In a speech on Friday, Peter Robinson said the current system, where Catholics and Protestants are usually educated separately, must change.
He said that he wanted to set up a commission to look at the total integration of the different sectors.
He compared the system to South Africa during apartheid where black and white children were educated separately.
BBC NI education correspondent Maggie Taggart said the speech was likely to provoke controversy.
In an apparent reference to Catholic schools, he said he had no objection to church schools but he did object to the state paying for them.
"It may take ten years or longer to address this problem, which dates back many decades, but the real crime would be to accept the status quo for the sake of a quiet life," he said.
"The benefits of such a system are not merely financial but could play a transformative role in changing society in Northern Ireland."
He added that there were a number of "knotty issues" such as "religious education, school assembly devotions and the curriculum".
"Future generations will not thank us if we fail to address this issue," the DUP leader said.
It would be difficult to dislodge "vested interests", he said, but was "convinced" that it should be done.
Our correspondent said that the DUP position has been that the state - or controlled - sector was non-denominational and could be used by those of all religions and none.
She added that Mr Robinson was proposing a single education system, rather than enlarging the integrated system which he did not believe would create the critical mass needed to make a real difference.
Quote from: FermGael on October 15, 2010, 08:54:10 PM
I cannot believe i am tying this. I actually agree with Peter Robinson
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11555984 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11555984)
QuoteRobinson slams education system 'apartheid'
Peter Robinson called the Northern Ireland education system "a benign form of apartheid" The First Minister has described the Northern Ireland education system as a "benign form of apartheid".
In a speech on Friday, Peter Robinson said the current system, where Catholics and Protestants are usually educated separately, must change.
He said that he wanted to set up a commission to look at the total integration of the different sectors.
He compared the system to South Africa during apartheid where black and white children were educated separately.
BBC NI education correspondent Maggie Taggart said the speech was likely to provoke controversy.
In an apparent reference to Catholic schools, he said he had no objection to church schools but he did object to the state paying for them.
"It may take ten years or longer to address this problem, which dates back many decades, but the real crime would be to accept the status quo for the sake of a quiet life," he said.
"The benefits of such a system are not merely financial but could play a transformative role in changing society in Northern Ireland."
He added that there were a number of "knotty issues" such as "religious education, school assembly devotions and the curriculum".
"Future generations will not thank us if we fail to address this issue," the DUP leader said.
It would be difficult to dislodge "vested interests", he said, but was "convinced" that it should be done.
Our correspondent said that the DUP position has been that the state - or controlled - sector was non-denominational and could be used by those of all religions and none.
She added that Mr Robinson was proposing a single education system, rather than enlarging the integrated system which he did not believe would create the critical mass needed to make a real difference.
It'll never happen as they'd have to sack hundreds of teachers.
I was the first person in Omagh to complete integrated education from primary school to 7th in secondary school. I couldn't recommend it enough, I honestly don't think I'd be the same person or hold the same views now if I had attended an exclusively catholic school.
Segregation is big business in the North so I can't see it happening for many years.
I see in todays Irish news that Loreto Convent in Coleraine will be dropping Academic selection.
They become the first of the Catholic Grammars to break rank and accept the inevitable.
The article also says that other Catholic Grammars will be doing the same as well.
Could it be that the fear of intergrated education is forcing there hand??
Interesting.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html)
Quote
Three Catholic grammar schools vow to bin academic selection
By Lindsay Fergus
Friday, 29 June 2012
Three Catholic grammar schools in Northern Ireland have backed plans by the Church's bishops to phase out academic selection at the age of 11.
They are Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry; Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar and St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
The trio — under the stewardship of the Edmund Rice Schools Trust — are the first grammar schools to throw their weight behind the bishops' June 21 call to gradually end selection.
Under the plans signed by the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady (below left), Catholic grammar schools are being asked to admit at least one in four pupils without having to sit the Post Primary Transfer Consortium's GL Assessment test.
Loreto College in Coleraine is the only Catholic grammar school to have abandoned academic selection so far.
But yesterday's endorsement by the Edmund Rice Schools Trust will put pressure on the other 24 Catholic grammar schools who have signed up for a new year of GL tests to follow suit — particularly as bishops who endorsed the plans are on the boards of governors of many of the schools.
They include bishops Noel Treanor, Liam McDaid, John McAreavey, Leo O'Reilly, Monsignor Eamon Martin and auxillary bishops Gerard Clifford, Anthony Farquhar and Donal McKeown.
In a statement, the Edmund Rice Schools Trust said it is "fully supportive of the policy of the Northern Ireland Commission for Catholic Education (NICCE) that academic selection at 11 years of age be phased out over a limited period, with appropriate evaluation and monitoring of the impact as the process moves forward".
It continued: "We welcome the statement of the Northern Catholic Bishops setting out clearly their collective stance in relation to the ending of academic selection at this early age.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees have recognised the concerns expressed by governors of grammar schools about the implementation of the policy, and we believe that the latest NICCE proposal is a reasonable response to these concerns.
"Specifically, we support the proposal that all grammar schools move away from the use of academic selection for 100% of enrolments to a maximum of 75% of enrolments in time for the school intakes in 2014.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees will work with school governors and with other trustees in each local area to facilitate this first phase of transition."
Factfile
The Catholic grammar schools that have supported bishops' plans to phase out academic selection at 11 are:
Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry.
Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar.
St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
Loreto College, Coleraine
Its a scramble for numbers, nothing more nothing less.
Quote from: FermGael on June 29, 2012, 10:57:46 AM
Interesting.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html)
Quote
Three Catholic grammar schools vow to bin academic selection
By Lindsay Fergus
Friday, 29 June 2012
Three Catholic grammar schools in Northern Ireland have backed plans by the Church's bishops to phase out academic selection at the age of 11.
They are Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry; Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar and St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
The trio — under the stewardship of the Edmund Rice Schools Trust — are the first grammar schools to throw their weight behind the bishops' June 21 call to gradually end selection.
Under the plans signed by the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady (below left), Catholic grammar schools are being asked to admit at least one in four pupils without having to sit the Post Primary Transfer Consortium's GL Assessment test.
Loreto College in Coleraine is the only Catholic grammar school to have abandoned academic selection so far.
But yesterday's endorsement by the Edmund Rice Schools Trust will put pressure on the other 24 Catholic grammar schools who have signed up for a new year of GL tests to follow suit — particularly as bishops who endorsed the plans are on the boards of governors of many of the schools.
They include bishops Noel Treanor, Liam McDaid, John McAreavey, Leo O'Reilly, Monsignor Eamon Martin and auxillary bishops Gerard Clifford, Anthony Farquhar and Donal McKeown.
In a statement, the Edmund Rice Schools Trust said it is "fully supportive of the policy of the Northern Ireland Commission for Catholic Education (NICCE) that academic selection at 11 years of age be phased out over a limited period, with appropriate evaluation and monitoring of the impact as the process moves forward".
It continued: "We welcome the statement of the Northern Catholic Bishops setting out clearly their collective stance in relation to the ending of academic selection at this early age.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees have recognised the concerns expressed by governors of grammar schools about the implementation of the policy, and we believe that the latest NICCE proposal is a reasonable response to these concerns.
"Specifically, we support the proposal that all grammar schools move away from the use of academic selection for 100% of enrolments to a maximum of 75% of enrolments in time for the school intakes in 2014.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees will work with school governors and with other trustees in each local area to facilitate this first phase of transition."
Factfile
The Catholic grammar schools that have supported bishops' plans to phase out academic selection at 11 are:
Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry.
Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar.
St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
Loreto College, Coleraine
About time.
You can't scrap academic selection yet.
The one thting that is needed before scraping it is a good alternative, which we don't seem to have.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 29, 2012, 03:32:29 PM
Paging Take Your Points. Take Your Points to this thread please! :o
Too busy hiding the silver in preparation for the great unwashed or perhaps developing a non-academic entrance test based around footballing ability. :P
Quote from: FermGael on June 29, 2012, 10:57:46 AM
Interesting.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/three-catholic-grammar-schools-vow-to-bin-academic-selection-16178964.html)
Quote
Three Catholic grammar schools vow to bin academic selection
By Lindsay Fergus
Friday, 29 June 2012
Three Catholic grammar schools in Northern Ireland have backed plans by the Church's bishops to phase out academic selection at the age of 11.
They are Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry; Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar and St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
The trio — under the stewardship of the Edmund Rice Schools Trust — are the first grammar schools to throw their weight behind the bishops' June 21 call to gradually end selection.
Under the plans signed by the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady (below left), Catholic grammar schools are being asked to admit at least one in four pupils without having to sit the Post Primary Transfer Consortium's GL Assessment test.
Loreto College in Coleraine is the only Catholic grammar school to have abandoned academic selection so far.
But yesterday's endorsement by the Edmund Rice Schools Trust will put pressure on the other 24 Catholic grammar schools who have signed up for a new year of GL tests to follow suit — particularly as bishops who endorsed the plans are on the boards of governors of many of the schools.
They include bishops Noel Treanor, Liam McDaid, John McAreavey, Leo O'Reilly, Monsignor Eamon Martin and auxillary bishops Gerard Clifford, Anthony Farquhar and Donal McKeown.
In a statement, the Edmund Rice Schools Trust said it is "fully supportive of the policy of the Northern Ireland Commission for Catholic Education (NICCE) that academic selection at 11 years of age be phased out over a limited period, with appropriate evaluation and monitoring of the impact as the process moves forward".
It continued: "We welcome the statement of the Northern Catholic Bishops setting out clearly their collective stance in relation to the ending of academic selection at this early age.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees have recognised the concerns expressed by governors of grammar schools about the implementation of the policy, and we believe that the latest NICCE proposal is a reasonable response to these concerns.
"Specifically, we support the proposal that all grammar schools move away from the use of academic selection for 100% of enrolments to a maximum of 75% of enrolments in time for the school intakes in 2014.
"The Edmund Rice Trustees will work with school governors and with other trustees in each local area to facilitate this first phase of transition."
Factfile
The Catholic grammar schools that have supported bishops' plans to phase out academic selection at 11 are:
Abbey Christian Brothers Grammar, Newry.
Omagh Christian Brothers Grammar.
St Mary's Christian Brothers' Grammar, Belfast.
Loreto College, Coleraine
A very crude attempt to increase the strength of their playing pool from three underachieving MacRory Cup schools if you ask me.
Although how St Mary's intends to increase their academic intake to 75% is anyone's guess.
Quote from: hardstation on September 07, 2016, 09:34:24 AM
Primary schools are now free to prepare children for the transfer test.
There has been some balls made of this....
But not compelled to do so. Not sure it'll make a pile of difference as those that were fully behind it were doing it anyway and those not behsind it weren't. Parents may try to force the responsibility back onto schools though.
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Great for me! I don't need to do the after school transfer club now as it is going to be done during teaching hours now ;D
Quote from: JimStynes on September 07, 2016, 10:56:21 PM
Great for me! I don't need to do the after school transfer club now as it is going to be done during teaching hours now ;D
Were you not doing anything during school hours?
No time limit on how long you can teach the transfer test per day. So one can teach all day every day until test and when inspector walks in
" Sorry, didn't do any World around us, music etc...... Was busy preparing for the test!! .
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
Quote from: ONeill on September 08, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
What age is acceptable to get tutored at??
I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.
Quote from: Minder on September 08, 2016, 10:02:45 AM
I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.
That certainly is an improvement!
Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 08, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 08, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
What age is acceptable to get tutored at??
I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.
In saying that Grammar schools are lowering their standards to an extent and a lot are now doing the English boards GCSE papers as they're perceived to be easier that the Northern Ireland ones. Still need to keep bums on seats with a reducing population.
As for Primary schools preparing children for the transfer test, some in out local area were and some weren't. It really was up to the school even if the education board was railing against the schools being involved in the preparation of children for this uncontrolled transfer test!
The old transfer test had so many past papers that it was possible not to spend as much time teaching the children for the test as simply doing the past papers. Children would sit one or two papers per week in school taking up a morning each time and then spend two or more days going back over the papers and correcting their answers. They were being taught how to do the papers and to learn off the answers.
The current papers are based on literacy and maths and science has been removed. Children do not have access to the past papers for the PPTC/GLA tests and so the teachers have to use the specification to teach the topics and practice them. Some will rely on fake past papers as near approximations to the GLA test. The GLA test has been customised to ensure that all of the topics are those that are listed in the N.Ireland Curriculum (NIC) as provided by CCEA.
If the school is already teaching maths and literacy to high standards then tutoring is not necessary given the commonality between the specification and the NIC. A further aspect is the level of testing being used in virtually every primary school in the country from P3 to P7. These schools are using other GLA products called Progress in English and Progress in Maths and are paying considerable sums to buy these products and have the papers marked by GLA, many have now moved to the on-line versions of these tests to provide the results almost immediately. Parents have been receiving the results of these test using standardised marking between 69 and 139 based on the age cohort for the UK. This gives parents an indication of the position of their children in the cohort. These tests used by the schools are not customised to the NIC but are approximations. A growing number of schools are following the secondary level schools by buying and using Cognitive Ability Tests from GLA and these provide in-depth analysis of the intelligence levels of children, parents probably never get to see the results as they are predictive of future achievement.
In addition, CCEA still requires assessment of children in KS1 and KS2 in literacy, maths and iCT which have placed a major burden on children and teachers particularly in P4 and P7 and are of little interest or value to teachers or parents.
So, working towards the transfer test is only a small part of the huge testing regime used in primary schools already including in many of those who reject the transfer test as placing a burden on the children that is not acceptable.
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 08, 2016, 10:18:12 AM
Quote from: Minder on September 08, 2016, 10:02:45 AM
I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.
That certainly is an improvement!
Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?
No I moved her because the school had went to shit, the teachers seemed unable or unwilling to give them a basic grounding in Maths. She was coming home with Maths homework that she wasn't taught during the day and hadn't a clue how to do. So she will need that transfer test or not.
And a shite inspection finding become the summer put the tin hat on it.
Quote from: johnneycool on September 08, 2016, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 08, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 08, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
What age is acceptable to get tutored at??
I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.
In saying that Grammar schools are lowering their standards to an extent and a lot are now doing the English boards GCSE papers as they're perceived to be easier that the Northern Ireland ones. Still need to keep bums on seats with a reducing population.
As for Primary schools preparing children for the transfer test, some in out local area were and some weren't. It really was up to the school even if the education board was railing against the schools being involved in the preparation of children for this uncontrolled transfer test!
Very similar to the students who get spoon fed during GCSEs / A-Levels (especially subjects with high coursework %) then struggle to progress independently at university.
Quote from: johnneycool on September 08, 2016, 10:35:27 AM
I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.
That says a lot about the teachers concerned and the level of support they are willing to provide for a child. The GCSE and A level results of the same teachers are always boosted by the parents having their children tutored for these exams. Probably providing tutoring themselves at immense cost to the parents.
It was true with the old test that it could be passed by training, not as much now. However, as you stated the grammar schools are filling up with children who would not have achieved a place before the major demographic downturn over the last 10 years. These are the children being spotted by these grammar school teachers. Fewer children in many areas means that the grammar school takes children with wider and wider ranges of ability. There are very few true grammar schools in the country. Just look at the grades that they accept. 40% of children can now get grammar school places, it was intended to be 25% when CCEA took over the testing for the transfer test.
Tutoring harms no child, it is the pressure put on that child by its parents and their failure to accept the child's ability especially where ability and social standing are linked by parents. Every parent wants to believe that all of their geese are swans. It does no harm to provide additional help to a child where a need has been identified especially when it is not being provided in primary schools as the Education Authority has withdrawn much of its help for children in these schools and where secondary schools do not have the budgets to pay for additional help.
Quote from: Minder on September 08, 2016, 10:39:35 AM
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 08, 2016, 10:18:12 AM
Quote from: Minder on September 08, 2016, 10:02:45 AM
I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.
That certainly is an improvement!
Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?
No I moved her because the school had went to shit, the teachers seemed unable or unwilling to give them a basic grounding in Maths. She was coming home with Maths homework that she wasn't taught during the day and hadn't a clue how to do. So she will need that transfer test or not.
And a shite inspection finding become the summer put the tin hat on it.
Good for you. It takes some courage for parents to make such a move. I hope it works out for your wee girl.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 08, 2016, 12:39:20 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 08, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
I remembered getting 11+ past-papers at school when I was two years from taking my exams.
Yup, I remember every Thursday from basically the beginning of P6 we did a practice test. Lads who weren't doing the 11+ sat there and twiddled their thumbs.
I am old enough to have done the original 11 plus test which was a pure intelligence test. We had text books to practice the test problems. Nothing that was in the test could be used in future education or life, we learned to decipher codes, develop sequences, etc. No knowledge or transferable skills.
Every Friday morning we were taken to the new canteen in Greenpark and completed a past paper. The teacher marked it over the weekend and then on Monday morning he called out the results and were we lined out around the walls of the classroom in rank order. Then he took out the leather strap and slapped everyone. I was fortunate enough to get good scores but routinely got 3 slaps on each hand given with some venom because I should have got 6 marks higher. This went on through P6 and until the test in November of P7.
However, when the test was over the teacher had a personality change and we lay back for the remainder of P7. A version of this occurs in most P7 classes that prepare for the test as payback for hard work before it, ask any parent about the use of the time after the test.
A lot of what has been said above is garbage as piles of schools were doing no transfer preparation and the standard of teaching was substandard to meet the requirements of the transfer test. Tutoring is in many cases the only means of getting close to the required standard to pass the test. Teaching in general is a results based industry and schools aren't churning out educationally rounded individuals with a wide knowledge base, as the focus is on a narrow criteria within a narrow subject set. It's the way the system is set up and is no fault of schools, teachers, pupils or parents.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 08, 2016, 01:19:41 PM
A lot of what has been said above is garbage as piles of schools were doing no transfer preparation and the standard of teaching was substandard to meet the requirements of the transfer test. Tutoring is in many cases the only means of getting close to the required standard to pass the test. Teaching in general is a results based industry and schools aren't churning out educationally rounded individuals with a wide knowledge base, as the focus is on a narrow criteria within a narrow subject set. It's the way the system is set up and is no fault of schools, teachers, pupils or parents.
If parents spent more time helping their children they wouldn't need the tutoring, a lot of parents think that teaching kids is the sole responsibility of the school.
It has never been as unfair as it is now. Some schools give test papers every day where as others stick to the rules and only give out 1 or 2 past papers. It's then up to the parents, the parents with the most money who can afford the best tutors. Even if you hear about a good tutor they are booked up years in advance.
I happened to be in the kitchen of a house last year and the persons daughter had a tutor in. I heard the tutor read out a multiple choice question, something like what is 40% of 2000. The wee girl looked up at the tutor and said 600 and the tutor nodded her head. 800? Very good, next question...
I felt like saying to the girls mum are you actually paying someone 25 pounds an hour for that. How does someone qualify to become a tutor if that is the standard of some of the teaching.
Quote from: Maiden1 on September 08, 2016, 03:51:09 PM
It has never been as unfair as it is now. Some schools give test papers every day where as others stick to the rules and only give out 1 or 2 past papers. It's then up to the parents, the parents with the most money who can afford the best tutors. Even if you hear about a good tutor they are booked up years in advance.
I happened to be in the kitchen of a house last year and the persons daughter had a tutor in. I heard the tutor read out a multiple choice question, something like what is 40% of 2000. The wee girl looked up at the tutor and said 600 and the tutor nodded her head. 800? Very good, next question...
I felt like saying to the girls mum are you actually paying someone 25 pounds an hour for that. How does someone qualify to become a tutor if that is the standard of some of the teaching.
Again that's one tutor you've heard! My wife has been tutoring 11 plus to kids for 20 odd years!! Hasn't in last couple of years as it was mainly to friends and families kids, there are as many without the funds finding money to pay for their kids future..
Parents know which schools encourage 11 plus and which schools don't... As others have said kids that really had to work hard at getting into the better schools stay the course and are able to apply themselves ... Kids that get tutored to death just to pass are more likely to fall down ... But there are (from what can see) two things, parents read or check schools for their GCSE and A level results as a barometer for successful school, and some parents fear sending their precious kids to a rough school...
I've come through secondary education and it worked for me, my wife went the other route and it's worked for her... So I'm completely on the fence on this one. To a point, I wasn't too fussed on sending my girls to the local secondary school, but I'd needed have worried as they have their mins brains !! While my son went to the local secondary school hand has done very well for himself..
Quote from: johnneycool on September 08, 2016, 10:35:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 08, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 08, 2016, 12:35:07 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 07, 2016, 10:51:26 PM
Quote from: ONeill on September 07, 2016, 10:38:48 PM
Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.
Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...
Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.
What age is acceptable to get tutored at??
I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.
It is up to the teachers of any pupil to set work to suit the ability of that child. its called differentiating the work in the lesson so that all pupils will be able to progress in line with their ability.
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
Quote from: cornerback on January 23, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
I'm doing it for the 3rd time in 4 years. The novelty wears off.
In the past I would have agreed with you about the tutoring, however, I've changed my mind on the issue.
Mrs. tbrick18 is a teacher and actually tutors kids, mostly with special ed needs. Though she does occasionally do transfer work for friends.
We would always work with our kids for homework etc, and followed that through with the transfer. What we found with the transfer work was that the child would lose focus and be more likely to not bother if we were helping. Whereas with a tutor, the child isn't as familiar with them and so works in a more focused fashion.
Whilst I don't agree with tutoring a child for a transfer test that they realistically couldn't pass normally, I think tutoring the more able kids on things like exam technique is definitely helpful.
Where we live, there is one school in particular that if a child wants to attend they must do the transfer, and probably need not only an A, but a high scored A as the criteria uses the scores instead of the grades. The little bit of tutoring could be the difference in getting a place.
Personally, I put no pressure on my kids to do the transfer or choose a specific school. I let them make the decision themselves and so far, they have all chosen to do it. The local comprehensive school seems to be a very good school too and I'd have no issue with my kids going there.
I know for some parents it's life or death getting into a grammar school, personally I think a lot of that is about keeping up appearances and can be very unfair on the child.
Quote from: cornerback on January 23, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?
Quote from: oakleaflad on January 23, 2020, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: cornerback on January 23, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?
Yeah, a lot of these open days are geared to P6's as well as P7's.
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 23, 2020, 03:47:37 PM
Quote from: cornerback on January 23, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
I'm doing it for the 3rd time in 4 years. The novelty wears off.
In the past I would have agreed with you about the tutoring, however, I've changed my mind on the issue.
Mrs. tbrick18 is a teacher and actually tutors kids, mostly with special ed needs. Though she does occasionally do transfer work for friends.
We would always work with our kids for homework etc, and followed that through with the transfer. What we found with the transfer work was that the child would lose focus and be more likely to not bother if we were helping. Whereas with a tutor, the child isn't as familiar with them and so works in a more focused fashion.
Whilst I don't agree with tutoring a child for a transfer test that they realistically couldn't pass normally, I think tutoring the more able kids on things like exam technique is definitely helpful.
Where we live, there is one school in particular that if a child wants to attend they must do the transfer, and probably need not only an A, but a high scored A as the criteria uses the scores instead of the grades. The little bit of tutoring could be the difference in getting a place.
Personally, I put no pressure on my kids to do the transfer or choose a specific school. I let them make the decision themselves and so far, they have all chosen to do it. The local comprehensive school seems to be a very good school too and I'd have no issue with my kids going there.
I know for some parents it's life or death getting into a grammar school, personally I think a lot of that is about keeping up appearances and can be very unfair on the child.
I know what you're saying regarding the exam technique but from talking the primary school teachers I think that is a part of their focus in the preparation. If I feel that is an area that needs additional work i'm in the fortunate position to call upon 5 close relations that are teachers (mix of primary & secondary).
I would be more than happy for my children to attend any of the 3 local schools that we've visited and i'm certainly not pushing them in any direction. If I was nudging in a particular direction it wouldn't be for the first choice ;)
Quote from: oakleaflad on January 23, 2020, 03:54:04 PM
Quote from: cornerback on January 23, 2020, 02:46:03 PM
Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?
My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list. It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.
Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?
Both year groups would be encouraged to go but its not vital either.
The children are going to be more influenced by the one-off visits and the schools definitely put their best foot forward in order to exert that influence but, as parents you'll be influenced by much more. I would regard Ballinascreen to be in the fortunate position of falling under the catchment area of a number of good schools and whatever one my children would like to attend there isn't much (or any) negativity with whatever they choose. I would say my attitude would be different if there was a particularly poor school on the list.
Not a fan of the transfer at all! It's serious pressure on a child at that age and it's not necessarily pressure from the parents or teachers. The pupils themselves will be talking about it and what school they're going to go to etc. The border line or less able pupils will be the ones listening to all their friends celebrating their 'A' on the Monday morning. It's not nice at all!
The big problem I have is that the subjects that are on the transfer aren't covered until later on in Primary 7 but the test is in early November! Schools then need to try and squeeze all the topics into the primary 6 year. It's nearly a necessity for the children to get tutored for the test to ensure they've covered everything and also learned good test technique.
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
Absolutely crazy that anyone gets a 10/11-year old tutored.
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2020, 10:01:08 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.
I ve heard if a few garage conversions to classrooms !
I also know if a science teacher tutoring children from their science in school .
I also came across a tutor , "teaching" a 11+ child at the same time as a gcse pupil ! Explain that one .
Parents are really to blame!
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through? It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
I'm not promoting the transfer test for a second, but there are many reasons why kids need tutoring and It sounds like you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet against teachers who do it.
Some kids absolutely need an extra push outside of school for a variety of reasons. For example, special Ed needs kids. Some parents don't have the ability to help their kids and without tutoring that child is at a disadvantage to kids who do have parental support.
The hard work at school comment only holds true if all teachers and schools prepare the kids in the same way and the teachers are of a similar standard. From experience I know this isn't the case.
But the single biggest thing your are missing the point on, even though in principal I see what you are saying, is that if any kids get tutored it moves the goalposts for all kids. So tutoring becomes a must.
I haven't heard of any of these 35/hr sessions with loads of kids or even 1-2-1 at that price for transfer. It may well happen though as some will always take advantage.
The issue isn't with tutori g, the issue is with the system and with grammar schools holding too much power.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 24, 2020, 10:01:08 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.
This is taking advantage.
Mrs. Tbrick18 tutors special Ed kids on a 1-2-1 basis, and I can tell you she doesn't charge anything like that. In face she charges less than half that hourly rate as she doesn't do it to make money.
However, I know of a principal in a certain ps, who has a policy of not prepping kids for transfer. But she actually tutors kids privately from her school for the transfer.
Some scumbags out there alright, but not all are the same.
I've heard anecdotal evidence of parents tutoring the life out of their kids to make sure they get into the good grammar school, then basically abandoning them when they arrive in the school as the child struggles to cope with the level of work and expectation. But the goal was only to get the child into the school so the job is done.
Quote from: JimStynes on January 25, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through? It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
Quote from: delgany on January 25, 2020, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on January 25, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through? It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
Supply and demand. My missus and her 2 sisters are teachers and the 2 sisters do some tuition but def charge 25 max. Maths and Science tutors are definitely in demand. I know a couple who had their son tutored for each A level he was doing - that's 100 quid a week, but he did well and in his first choice at uni so for them they'll say it is money well spent. How he does in his uni course is anybody's guess!
Quote from: delgany on January 25, 2020, 01:29:33 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 25, 2020, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on January 25, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: delgany on January 24, 2020, 08:25:14 PM
11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100 bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .
Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.
What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through? It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
Up to last year loads of schools weren't doing any transfer prep. My boys went to such a achool. And I mean NOTHING.
https://www.derrynow.com/news/derry-news/511843/revealed-the-scores-and-grades-that-schools-in-derry-accepted-last-year-for-students-who-had-taken-the-transfer-test.html
Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
If the boards of governors of some grammar schools chose to do the right thing and not select children based on academic ability then there would be no need for tutoring at 11.
It is the responsibility of each school to prepare and cater for the pupils who attend it, irrespective of ability. A primary school teacher can't point to a child in his/her class and say that that child is not fit to be in the school. A grammar school teacher shouldn't either but they do unfortunately.
Quote from: delgany on January 25, 2020, 01:46:19 PM
Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
The transfer is in November so if we were teaching it the way it is meant to be taught then the pupils wouldn't have all the topics covered by then. If I teach ratio or algebra in second term of P7 then it's too late for those transfer pupils, the test has come and gone. But what happens is teachers squeeze all of the p7 year into the P6 year and expect everyone to keep up.
It also depends on the catchment area and ethos of the school. In some areas the transfer isn't a 'thing'. My last 3 schools have been entirely different. In my current school I haven't mentioned transfer to the class once and they're the brightest class I've ever taught. They all go to the local schools and don't require a transfer score. One child did the transfer in fact and his PTM and PTE scores were both in the 130s. He got an A today and he was tutored on test technique and time management of the test. I gave the tutor the topics I haven't covered yet that I know are on the test and they did the work with him. There is no way I'm changing the curriculum to suit one child. The children in this school are much more relaxed and a hell of lot less stressed than the transfer schools. But if I had 3/4 children looking to do the transfer next year, then how would they pass if they didn't get a tutor as I don't go over the tests in school.
One of my schools fed into the likes of Rathmore and those Belfast schools. Out of 28 children, 25 did the test and a lot of them got A. But the preparation was intense. The P7 curriculum was covered in P6, they did tests 3 times per week, their homework was based around the transfer, they had a transfer pack sent home over the summer, they did work at weekends and 99% of them were tutored on a weekly basis and some cases were tutored twice a week. Needless to say there was a lot of tears, stressed parents and pressure on teachers. 10/11 years of age and being put through that. Also, in this school we worked out that children with a score of 115 were the ones likely to get an A based on all the statistics that the boss had worked out.
Another school was in a deprived area but still did the transfer prep and it was a waste of time. 5/6 of the class were fit for it and the others hadn't a clue. Waste of time and the parents couldn't afford tutors. We ran transfer clubs and tried our best but ultimately that school is failing the majority of their children by persisting/giving into the transfer pressure. I'd have liked to have taught the class at a slower rate and let those doing transfer do so in their own time after school.
I tutor children for the transfer and give parents a brutally honest view of how I think their child is going to do and whether it is going to be worth the stress and hassle for the child. In lots of cases the parents say they would still like them to do it. I've tutored a few border B/C children and they've got an A, but I would say a month after the test they would have forgotten half the stuff. They were tutored to pass the test but if I was teaching them I would have taught them differently in a way that would help them retain the knowledge! Also, £30 an hour! I would need to start putting my prices up!
As I said it's a completely flawed system and it's a lot of unnecessary stress for children at 10/11 years of age. I thought the Dixon Plan in Lurgan was better. You go to the local secondary and then do a transfer test at the end of 3rd year to go to the local Grammar school. But they've went and made a balls out of the education system in Lurgan now too.
Quote from: JimStynes on January 25, 2020, 07:24:07 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 25, 2020, 01:46:19 PM
Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own
P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.
Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.
A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.
Children with a CAt score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.
The transfer is in November so if we were teaching it the way it is meant to be taught then the pupils wouldn't have all the topics covered by then. If I teach ratio or algebra in second term of P7 then it's too late for those transfer pupils, the test has come and gone. But what happens is teachers squeeze all of the p7 year into the P6 year and expect everyone to keep up.
It also depends on the catchment area and ethos of the school. In some areas the transfer isn't a 'thing'. My last 3 schools have been entirely different. In my current school I haven't mentioned transfer to the class once and they're the brightest class I've ever taught. They all go to the local schools and don't require a transfer score. One child did the transfer in fact and his PTM and PTE scores were both in the 130s. He got an A today and he was tutored on test technique and time management of the test. I gave the tutor the topics I haven't covered yet that I know are on the test and they did the work with him. There is no way I'm changing the curriculum to suit one child. The children in this school are much more relaxed and a hell of lot less stressed than the transfer schools. But if I had 3/4 children looking to do the transfer next year, then how would they pass if they didn't get a tutor as I don't go over the tests in school.
One of my schools fed into the likes of Rathmore and those Belfast schools. Out of 28 children, 25 did the test and a lot of them got A. But the preparation was intense. The P7 curriculum was covered in P6, they did tests 3 times per week, their homework was based around the transfer, they had a transfer pack sent home over the summer, they did work at weekends and 99% of them were tutored on a weekly basis and some cases were tutored twice a week. Needless to say there was a lot of tears, stressed parents and pressure on teachers. 10/11 years of age and being put through that. Also, in this school we worked out that children with a score of 115 were the ones likely to get an A based on all the statistics that the boss had worked out.
Another school was in a deprived area but still did the transfer prep and it was a waste of time. 5/6 of the class were fit for it and the others hadn't a clue. Waste of time and the parents couldn't afford tutors. We ran transfer clubs and tried our best but ultimately that school is failing the majority of their children by persisting/giving into the transfer pressure. I'd have liked to have taught the class at a slower rate and let those doing transfer do so in their own time after school.
I tutor children for the transfer and give parents a brutally honest view of how I think their child is going to do and whether it is going to be worth the stress and hassle for the child. In lots of cases the parents say they would still like them to do it. I've tutored a few border B/C children and they've got an A, but I would say a month after the test they would have forgotten half the stuff. They were tutored to pass the test but if I was teaching them I would have taught them differently in a way that would help them retain the knowledge! Also, £30 an hour! I would need to start putting my prices up!
As I said it's a completely flawed system and it's a lot of unnecessary stress for children at 10/11 years of age. I thought the Dixon Plan in Lurgan was better. You go to the local secondary and then do a transfer test at the end of 3rd year to go to the local Grammar school. But they've went and made a balls out of the education system in Lurgan now too.
Is there still grades? I hear scores for the AQE and it seems to be just a number.
Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 25, 2020, 11:41:20 PM
Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!
Haha
GL year for catholic grammar but lots of taigs do the AQE test as well.
Quote from: Estimator on January 25, 2020, 01:22:10 PM
I've heard anecdotal evidence of parents tutoring the life out of their kids to make sure they get into the good grammar school, then basically abandoning them when they arrive in the school as the child struggles to cope with the level of work and expectation. But the goal was only to get the child into the school so the job is done.
I've seen this too.
I think the expectation from some parents is that if the child gets into the grammar of choice that the school is so good they'll make sure the child succeeds. Rarely the case unfortunately if the ability isn't there.
However, the parents are in a lot of cases trying to do what they think is best even though there are plenty who do it for appearances.
Quote from: JimStynes on January 26, 2020, 08:27:47 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 25, 2020, 11:41:20 PM
Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!
Haha
GL year for catholic grammar but lots of taigs do the AQE test as well.
And lots of protestants do the gl, especially where I live as the Catholic grammars have higher standings in the tables.
The GL gives a score and a letter, with some schools using the scores in their entrance criteria.
It's a bonkers system of deciding what school you go to and completely goes against all models of best practice
Quote from: JimStynes on January 26, 2020, 08:27:47 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 25, 2020, 11:41:20 PM
Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!
Haha
GL year for catholic grammar but lots of taigs do the AQE test as well.
Yes In Armagh there is quite a bit of crossover.
A GL test won't get them apples picked.
It's a disgrace that schools are still allowed to "select" children. I'd make it illegal and close non conforming schools. Lazy teachers looking for an easy ride.
Close them up and tarmac over them! That'll sort it out!
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 04:12:55 PM
It's a disgrace that schools are still allowed to "select" children. I'd make it illegal and close non conforming schools. Lazy teachers looking for an easy ride.
Schools will always have to "select" children. They cannot accommodate unlimited numbers.
You would close schools? That'd be a great help.
School don't have to select through tests. They can use the same criteria as non selecting schools and fill their places from there. Selecting pupils from a test ensures they have the best pupils which will save them the bother if having to deal with pupils who require additional support and differentiating their lessons.
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
Let's clear up a few things.
There is nothing wrong with selecting & rejecting children for school places. It has to happen. Selecting & rejecting on academic ability is wrong, in my opinion but not in the opinion of many others.
I think it's foolish to put it down to "lazy teachers wanting an easy life". Many people who are not teachers support the system and even demand it.
It seems you think teachers have some sort of sway on this. These decisions aren't taken by teachers. The principal would have a say alright but most of the people who make these decisions don't work in the school.
Closing schools down will not help.
Approximately, 8 000 parents decided to enter there child into the exams . 6 000 Iin the GL and AQE . 2 000 entered both. If parents didn't enter the exams ,there would be no need for them! But that's not the case !
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on January 26, 2020, 04:53:32 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 04:12:55 PM
It's a disgrace that schools are still allowed to "select" children. I'd make it illegal and close non conforming schools. Lazy teachers looking for an easy ride.
Schools will always have to "select" children. They cannot accommodate unlimited numbers.
You would close schools? That'd be a great help.
School don't have to select through tests. They can use the same criteria as non selecting schools and fill their places from there. Selecting pupils from a test ensures they have the best pupils which will save them the bother if having to deal with pupils who require additional support and differentiating their lessons.
They don't, but they'll always select.
Surely you don't honestly believe that teachers in selective schools don't have to "deal with pupils who require additional support and differentiating lessons."
I have debated this with grammar school teachers during all of my career. Their whole view is that it is up to pupils to be fit for the work that the grammar school provides. If they are not fit to keep up like the most able in the class then they should not be at the school. They should be at the secondary school. Imagine a primary school teacher taking that attitude to their pupils!!!
The sad thing about it is that the grammar school teachers get away with it.
Quote from: delgany on January 26, 2020, 07:48:59 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
Let's clear up a few things.
There is nothing wrong with selecting & rejecting children for school places. It has to happen. Selecting & rejecting on academic ability is wrong, in my opinion but not in the opinion of many others.
I think it's foolish to put it down to "lazy teachers wanting an easy life". Many people who are not teachers support the system and even demand it.
It seems you think teachers have some sort of sway on this. These decisions aren't taken by teachers. The principal would have a say alright but most of the people who make these decisions don't work in the school.
Closing schools down will not help.
Approximately, 8 000 parents decided to enter there child into the exams . 6 000 Iin the GL and AQE . 2 000 entered both. If parents didn't enter the exams ,there would be no need for them! But that not the case !
Nonsense response. Parents want the best for their children.
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
Let's clear up a few things.
There is nothing wrong with selecting & rejecting children for school places. It has to happen. Selecting & rejecting on academic ability is wrong, in my opinion but not in the opinion of many others.
I think it's foolish to put it down to "lazy teachers wanting an easy life". Many people who are not teachers support the system and even demand it.
It seems you think teachers have some sort of sway on this. These decisions aren't taken by teachers. The principal would have a say alright but most of the people who make these decisions don't work in the school.
Closing schools down will not help.
I would ban the 11+ and close the schools that refuse to co-operate. That's what I said.
Its all about an easy ride. Teaching those with the best ability. It's so far from the ethos of inclusiveness that many schools promote. Lazy, useless hypocrites. The teaching community and dept of education need faced down on this and other issues. Inefficiency and incompetence is rife in that dept and by extension many schools.
Quote from: Jim Bob on January 26, 2020, 08:12:43 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on January 26, 2020, 04:53:32 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 04:12:55 PM
It's a disgrace that schools are still allowed to "select" children. I'd make it illegal and close non conforming schools. Lazy teachers looking for an easy ride.
Schools will always have to "select" children. They cannot accommodate unlimited numbers.
You would close schools? That'd be a great help.
School don't have to select through tests. They can use the same criteria as non selecting schools and fill their places from there. Selecting pupils from a test ensures they have the best pupils which will save them the bother if having to deal with pupils who require additional support and differentiating their lessons.
They don't, but they'll always select.
Surely you don't honestly believe that teachers in selective schools don't have to "deal with pupils who require additional support and differentiating lessons."
I have debated this with grammar school teachers during all of my career. Their whole view is that it is up to pupils to be fit for the work that the grammar school provides. If they are not fit to keep up like the most able in the class then they should not be at the school. They should be at the secondary school. Imagine a primary school teacher taking that attitude to their pupils!!!
The sad thing about it is that the grammar school teachers get away with it.
I would agree with that to a certain extent. My 2 boys attend a grammar and my wife and her sister teach in a comp and the standard of teaching in their school is much better than the grammar and their league table position backs that up. It's definitely a handy number in the grammar school where they rely on the pupils to keep up whereas there is much more spoon-feeding at my wife's school.
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 08:39:15 PM
Quote from: delgany on January 26, 2020, 07:48:59 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
Let's clear up a few things.
There is nothing wrong with selecting & rejecting children for school places. It has to happen. Selecting & rejecting on academic ability is wrong, in my opinion but not in the opinion of many others.
I think it's foolish to put it down to "lazy teachers wanting an easy life". Many people who are not teachers support the system and even demand it.
It seems you think teachers have some sort of sway on this. These decisions aren't taken by teachers. The principal would have a say alright but most of the people who make these decisions don't work in the school.
Closing schools down will not help.
Approximately, 8 000 parents decided to enter there child into the exams . 6 000 Iin the GL and AQE . 2 000 entered both. If parents didn't enter the exams ,there would be no need for them! But that not the case !
Nonsense response. Parents want the best for their children.
Ironically , that was the point I was making .
I have a better idea.
Keep the 11 plus.
Bring it back it but change the rules of entry.
Grammar schools can only accept pupils who achieve an A or a B grade.
Watch as overnight most of the "grammar" schools in Northern Ireland drop their "grammar" status.
It seems to me that their are very few "grammar" schools that now only take the top 2 grades.
If there were not allowed to drop into the C and in alot of cases the D grades when there is a dip in pupil numbers or top grade pupils go to another grammar school then they would not make their intake and thus their funding and ultimately their staffing would be under threat.
Quote from: hardstation on January 26, 2020, 09:21:23 PM
Are you saying that you are a supporter of academic selection at 11 as long as the "passes" and "fails" are always kept apart?
Surprised at you. ;D
No I am not.
Hate the thing with a passion.
I have personally dealt with many who have been destroyed by failing a test at 11 or sometimes 10 years of age. It's amazing that something that is as damaging to children has been allowed to stay in place in this day and age .
Thankfully my children won't have to do it. They will go to the local school
Grammar status at the moment is very questionable for alot of schools at the moment. They say they use it to admit pupils so that they can get their numbers.
That's it
So let get this straight, grammar school teachers have an easy ride because?
Teachers are always under pressure to get results, it doesn't matter if it's secondary or grammar schools. All schools stream their classes. That's never changed.
The 11 plus is not perfect but just lumping all ranges of kids with different levels of education together is mental. My wife works in a grammar school and never stops and the pressure to keep achieving is absolutely no difference from primary level to secondary/grammar level.
But sure close the schools is a brilliant option!
As for not getting into a grammar school or feeling crap because you didn't pass, has it changed from my time? I never gave it a second thought and not passing an exam at 10/11 years old will not define you, and if a parent has a child that's feeling that then I'd look closer at the parents.
Quote from: FermGael on January 26, 2020, 09:01:20 PM
I have a better idea.
Keep the 11 plus.
Bring it back it but change the rules of entry.
Grammar schools can only accept pupils who achieve an A or a B grade.
Watch as overnight most of the "grammar" schools in Northern Ireland drop their "grammar" status.
It seems to me that their are very few "grammar" schools that now only take the top 2 grades.
If there were not allowed to drop into the C and in alot of cases the D grades when there is a dip in pupil numbers or top grade pupils go to another grammar school then they would not make their intake and thus their funding and ultimately their staffing would be under threat.
All grammar schools are completely independent organisations, financed independently by DENI and answerable to its Board of Governors. They are not going to cut their noses off and weaken their position , in terms of filling desks.
They all have admissions numbers set by DENI, as do all schools ,so DENI,are unlikely to back track on them as all grammar schools are over subscribed .
Quote from: trailer on January 26, 2020, 05:28:29 PM
Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.
If ever there was a case for scrapping Grammar Schools!
Schools are going to close.
They won't be grammar schools.
They will be secondary schools .
Why? Because as the previous poster said grammar schools are over subscribed..
Why ? Well because they are grammar schools.
You only have to look at the mess this year in several areas where grammar schools were given permission to temporarily increase there year 8 intake due to increased demand while secondary schools in the same area who were also over subscribed were not.
Also within these areas there are other schools with space who were just ignored.
Grammar school teachers don't have easy.
Anything but.
Some children fail the test and it's water of a ducks back.
Other dont and it sticks with him for a long while.
It may not define you but being labelled a failure at 10 or 11 can take a while to get over.
I was at an open meeting a few years back when it was muted that the local Comprehensive (which I had attended after passing the 11+ as it was then) was going to close and merge with similar schools in Downpatrick due to falling numbers.
The then Principal was asked a few questions from the floor in relation to falling numbers as it was pointed out to him that most of the local feeder Primary Schools numbers were holding up and he said that Grammar schools were now taking in children that the wouldn't have entertained years ago in terms of their academic ability as they'd upped their intakes for what he termed purely financial reasons.
He also said that legally a Grammar school cannot refuse a child entry if they have not filled all their intake and this obviously was squeezing the Comprehensives.
He did suggest that there wasn't enough available evidence to see how these youngsters getting into Grammar schools with less than A's fared but he did put the onus back on us parents to select the right school for our child and that might not necessarily be a Grammar school.
I attended an open night for a Belfast Grammar school and the then principal unashamedly made it clear that they teach to the top of the class and its up to the rest to keep up.
Parents need to make the decisions with their eyes wide open.
I know grammar (wife) and secondary teachers I see one every day and live next door to two secondary school teachers who I'm friends with. They complain about generally the same things, results, pressures from management, pay, more topics to cover less time. The only differences are students attitudes and expectations.
Grammars are expected to get high achievers (not always the case) and secondary schools are meant to get difficult students (not always the case)
I would have (if ever checked) been diagnosed with mild ADHD and mild dyslexia. Otherwise known in my day as very chatty (never shuts up) and could do better syndrome Otherwise known as thick! You grow out of it and develop later in life, getting a diagnosis wouldn't have made my life easier as I'd have been that kid who needs help! Not fashionable going to school with that hanging around you in the seventies or early eighties!
5/10 years ago grammar schools wouldn't have had that many classroom assistants, it's great to see in fairness. On average how many would be in a secondary school? My wife's school has 6/7
Kids were tougher back then, now parents actually look for something to blame
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on January 27, 2020, 11:00:36 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 27, 2020, 10:10:35 PM
Grammars are expected to get high achievers (not always the case) and secondary schools are might to get difficult students (not always the case)
In non-grammars, you are almost certainly going to get "difficult" students - though that depends what you call difficult, as they could have some mild learning difficulties that is otherwise not severe enough for them to attend a Special School, or have behaviour difficulties that sees them learn better in a different environment than a standard classroom. My former secondary school has a good reputation of helping build up those with learning issues that without due attention would have been left to flounder.
High achievers and difficult students are also not mutually exclusive - you still have teaching assistants in grammar school classes where a student can be deemed a high academic achiever but still require some lesson assistance - the first off the top of my head being some of those diagnosed with mild or moderate Autism Spectrum Disorders (whom in such cases are usually at average or above average intelligence), or ADHD which it is much less about the student being hyperactivly disruptive and more about getting to concentrate on class work away from other distractions.
I remember from my short time at Omagh CBS back in the late 90's how some of my behaviours and ASD traits could be seen as being disruptive as well as requiring additional classroom assistance - I'd have thought little or nothing of them at the time. I've not great concentration levels at the best of times, and I left because I couldn't cope with the intensity, focus and depth demanded from the A-Level subjects I chose. But in more ways than one, that's how I learn. Truth be told, had I been diagnosed with ASD twenty or so years before I finally was, I probably would have been assigned a classroom assistant even though up to and including GCSEs there would have seemingly been little apparent need as I was not struggling academically in any particular area.
Personally, I think it's a total misconception that grammar schools don't have the same problems as non-grammar schools. I have 2 kids in grammar school and with some of the social/behavioural/academic/bullying issues in there, I have no doubt that all the same issues exist in both streams.
The difference may be that it's not on the same scale but I actually think it's more a case that the discipline in the grammar schools is more rigid.
There are kids who do not achieve in grammar schools, just in the same way there are those who don't achieve in non-grammar schools. But equally, the non-grammar schools also get some very high achievers.
The main difference that I have seen so far is purely around the range of subjects on offer. There is certainly a wider range of subjects available in the grammar school. However, in terms of quantity of work or quality of teaching, I haven't seen any real difference yet, although none of mine are at GCSE level yet.
I have been guilty of it myself in the past, where you think everything is rosy in the grammar school and that if my child gets in there they will associate with a better "class" of friend. But it's just not the case, that's just a very good marketing line. I know my kids have made friends that I would certainly not choose for them.
I honestly believe that if a child wants to do well in school, they will do regardless of whether they are in grammar or non grammar. For my own circumstances, we let the child decide and then 100% supported their decision. It just so happens that the local grammar has a brand new school, so come open nights the kids see all the latest kit and inevitably that's where they want to go. But I would never not want my child to go to a non-grammar because it's perceived to be of a lesser standard based purely on the fact that it is not grammar.
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Some parents really wasted their money back in my day paying for lads! I suppose paying 35 quid an hour two or three times a week to have them tutored is the modern equivalent!
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 03:34:16 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Some parents really wasted their money back in my day paying for lads! I suppose paying 35 quid an hour two or three times a week to have them tutored is the modern equivalent!
If you have the money, and most kids that went to the Prep schools the parents had the money so it was ok for them to waste it
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
Quote from: hardstation on January 28, 2020, 09:34:32 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.
If I had the money I'd consider it too; although I think they have to come home for the weekend.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:40:23 PM
Quote from: hardstation on January 28, 2020, 09:34:32 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.
If I had the money I'd consider it too; although I think they have to come home for the weekend.
Double Cream ..... RIch and Thick !
Quote from: hardstation on January 28, 2020, 09:34:32 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.
Mmmm.....Joe Brolly boarded at St Pats Armagh....
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
They do that with primary schools already, I know of many a family that moved to an area because the schooling system around there is very good
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
What if the teachers only taught the top one percent in their class or the only the very best child in their class. Is that acceptable?
Mixed ability happens in primary school and all work is differentiated into usually 3/4 groups. This becomes more difficult as they get older and the gap starts to widen. I would imagine by the time they get to 3rd year that children would benefit from being organised into ability groups for at least a few subject areas like math, literacy and science.
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
What if the teachers only taught the top one percent in their class or the only the very best child in their class. Is that acceptable?
Teachers teach the subject, they apply the teaching methods that they have been taught, there isn't much more they can do, reports, meetings, marking and all the other non teaching things are done also within and after school hours, teachers have less 'frees' to carry out their paper work, in fact they have a small budget for paper and if they go over that they have to pay for the paper themselves.
To say they only teach the one percent is wrong, they have 30 plus kids in a class, they can't individually go around and teach each child separately, smaller class sizes would be the best solution, again not a school problem or a teaching problem, all about the department and when money is available.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
What if the teachers only taught the top one percent in their class or the only the very best child in their class. Is that acceptable?
Teachers teach the subject, they apply the teaching methods that they have been taught, there isn't much more they can do, reports, meetings, marking and all the other non teaching things are done also within and after school hours, teachers have less 'frees' to carry out their paper work, in fact they have a small budget for paper and if they go over that they have to pay for the paper themselves.
To say they only teach the one percent is wrong, they have 30 plus kids in a class, they can't individually go around and teach each child separately, smaller class sizes would be the best solution, again not a school problem or a teaching problem, all about the department and when money is available.
Is the 11+ too late then? Why are we not streaming from age 7 or 8? The 7+ or the 8+ ? These weaker kids are holding back the class holding back the teacher, Christ they're holding back society.
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
What if the teachers only taught the top one percent in their class or the only the very best child in their class. Is that acceptable?
Teachers teach the subject, they apply the teaching methods that they have been taught, there isn't much more they can do, reports, meetings, marking and all the other non teaching things are done also within and after school hours, teachers have less 'frees' to carry out their paper work, in fact they have a small budget for paper and if they go over that they have to pay for the paper themselves.
To say they only teach the one percent is wrong, they have 30 plus kids in a class, they can't individually go around and teach each child separately, smaller class sizes would be the best solution, again not a school problem or a teaching problem, all about the department and when money is available.
Is the 11+ too late then? Why are we not streaming from age 7 or 8? The 7+ or the 8+ ? These weaker kids are holding back the class holding back the teacher, Christ they're holding back society.
Is there an age that you think streaming is acceptable?
Quote from: GJL on January 29, 2020, 12:00:50 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:46:03 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 10:26:10 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 09:50:55 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on January 29, 2020, 09:16:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 29, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 29, 2020, 08:46:29 AM
Quote from: hardstation on January 29, 2020, 08:18:52 AM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 10:53:34 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 28, 2020, 09:05:38 PM
Quote from: trailer on January 28, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?
Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.
An Education based on how wealthy your parents are. How very apt. Most definitely the policy we should pursue.
Don't you think that parents' wealth will always have an impact on the education of their children? Currently we have those who can afford to be tutored to within an inch of their lives and those who cannot. Most who oppose the GL would say that kids should attend their local school regardless of ability and I would agree with this. Would this bring rise to "sought after" postcodes where more affluent parents would race to live beside the school with the best reputation?
That's a noble aspiration if all local schools were good. There are a lot of schools that are pure shite so given the choice between a shite local school or doing the entrance exam to a better school, it's an easy choice for parents. People with money will have better cars, clothes, food etc. It's a fact of life that we aren't all born equal. I went to a secondary school but key to it's success was streaming - education was delivered commensurate with the ability of the pupils. Mixing low ability and high ability helps neither group.
Yes. The weak must be excluded. At u-8 training this year I'll be asking those parents whose children aren't to the required standard to leave. I have no interest in coaching some child who isn't good enough. ONLY THE ELITE MATTER IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE!!
The converse of your argument that as the parent of an U8, thon lad trailer is a woeful coach, so I'm going to take our wee Henry Shefflin to that other club where the coaching is better!
Or should we just tolerate woeful coaching/teaching using your analogy?
If the lad is woeful then its probably not the right sport, some kids are rubbish, some start out rubbish and improve and some don't, some are sent and encouraged by their dad because he was a clubman and so must they...
Streaming in schools has always happened, teachers and schools haven't got the time to sit with one or 2 students to bring them on as they don't have the time!
There is a certain time frame to get the subject covered before moving on to the next topic, that's the fault of the education system for increasing the course not the fault of the school or the teachers (for most parts). The education department are losing teachers every year who go back to working in the private sector as the workload and pressures are far great than the pay they get, no amount of holidays are keeping these people on board and the 'vocation' of teacher is not there really anymore
What if the teachers only taught the top one percent in their class or the only the very best child in their class. Is that acceptable?
Teachers teach the subject, they apply the teaching methods that they have been taught, there isn't much more they can do, reports, meetings, marking and all the other non teaching things are done also within and after school hours, teachers have less 'frees' to carry out their paper work, in fact they have a small budget for paper and if they go over that they have to pay for the paper themselves.
To say they only teach the one percent is wrong, they have 30 plus kids in a class, they can't individually go around and teach each child separately, smaller class sizes would be the best solution, again not a school problem or a teaching problem, all about the department and when money is available.
Is the 11+ too late then? Why are we not streaming from age 7 or 8? The 7+ or the 8+ ? These weaker kids are holding back the class holding back the teacher, Christ they're holding back society.
Is there an age that you think streaming is acceptable?
I'd imagine after 3rd year - so 13 /14. Up until then I think rejecting children isn't the best way to build a fair society.
So rejecting children aged 13/14 is ok? You're a laugh
Forget about the 11 plus, I'm not exactly for it, I'm for streaming in schools which will suit all abilities, smaller classes less topics to cover and supporting services within the schools to allow the teachers to teach instead of the other crap they have to do on top. There is NO MONEY to allow that, now if you had a hard time in school and are just venting that's fine, vent away but your solution is flawed.
Teachers are and should be accountable, that's why we have the ETI to inspect schools and act on complaints
Why are you so pro streaming at secondary level ?
Most of the evidence is actually dodgy enough.
https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/evidence-summaries/teaching-learning-toolkit/setting-or-streaming/ (https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/evidence-summaries/teaching-learning-toolkit/setting-or-streaming/)
Looking at other countries education systems that are top of the Pisa tables etc streaming is not done
Quote from: FermGael on January 29, 2020, 02:53:56 PM
Why are you so pro streaming at secondary level ?
Most of the evidence is actually dodgy enough.
https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/evidence-summaries/teaching-learning-toolkit/setting-or-streaming/ (https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/evidence-summaries/teaching-learning-toolkit/setting-or-streaming/)
Looking at other countries education systems that are top of the Pisa tables etc streaming is not done
Ive taught mixed abilities for 12 years before leaving teaching, the class was geared towards lesson plans that allowed me to work with high flyers and not so high, my classes were no bigger than 16 .
When I moved to teaching level 3 and 4 students the ones that were lucky to get a level two certificate never passed level 3, they just couldn't do the math side of engineering and so fell by the wayside, I'd have spent long periods of time going through methods after methods but eventually did just previous test papers and they sometimes got through it but never retained any knowledge.
I was spending more time (that I didn't have) with kids that didn't have it, it may sink in for them at a later date (as it did for me) but I always felt I was spoon feeding at the end!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
So rejecting children aged 13/14 is ok? You're a laugh
Forget about the 11 plus, I'm not exactly for it, I'm for streaming in schools which will suit all abilities, smaller classes less topics to cover and supporting services within the schools to allow the teachers to teach instead of the other crap they have to do on top. There is NO MONEY to allow that, now if you had a hard time in school and are just venting that's fine, vent away but your solution is flawed.
Teachers are and should be accountable, that's why we have the ETI to inspect schools and act on complaints
Not much ETIing these days !!!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
So rejecting children aged 13/14 is ok? You're a laugh
Forget about the 11 plus, I'm not exactly for it, I'm for streaming in schools which will suit all abilities, smaller classes less topics to cover and supporting services within the schools to allow the teachers to teach instead of the other crap they have to do on top. There is NO MONEY to allow that, now if you had a hard time in school and are just venting that's fine, vent away but your solution is flawed.
Teachers are and should be accountable, that's why we have the ETI to inspect schools and act on complaints
Are inspections not false? The schools know when the ETI are coming and work towards that.
Teachers, I hear, spend a lot of time on paperwork instead of teaching.
Quote from: marty34 on January 29, 2020, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
So rejecting children aged 13/14 is ok? You're a laugh
Forget about the 11 plus, I'm not exactly for it, I'm for streaming in schools which will suit all abilities, smaller classes less topics to cover and supporting services within the schools to allow the teachers to teach instead of the other crap they have to do on top. There is NO MONEY to allow that, now if you had a hard time in school and are just venting that's fine, vent away but your solution is flawed.
Teachers are and should be accountable, that's why we have the ETI to inspect schools and act on complaints
Are inspections not false? The schools know when the ETI are coming and work towards that.
Teachers, I hear, spend a lot of time on paperwork instead of teaching.
Have you done any teaching?
Quote from: marty34 on January 29, 2020, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 29, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
So rejecting children aged 13/14 is ok? You're a laugh
Forget about the 11 plus, I'm not exactly for it, I'm for streaming in schools which will suit all abilities, smaller classes less topics to cover and supporting services within the schools to allow the teachers to teach instead of the other crap they have to do on top. There is NO MONEY to allow that, now if you had a hard time in school and are just venting that's fine, vent away but your solution is flawed.
Teachers are and should be accountable, that's why we have the ETI to inspect schools and act on complaints
Are inspections not false? The schools know when the ETI are coming and work towards that.
Teachers, I hear, spend a lot of time on paperwork instead of teaching.
As my old principal used to advise us....." If you believe all you hear, you ll eat all you see!!"
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-52853496
Transfer test: Five Catholic grammar schools scrap academic selection
Five Catholic grammar schools have said they will not use transfer tests to select pupils for 2021. The schools in County Down said they had made the move "in light of the current circumstances". None of the five schools will use the transfer test run by the Post-Primary Transfer Consortium (PPTC) set by GL Assessment this year as a result. The head of the Catholic Church in Ireland had previously urged Catholic grammars not to use the test in 2020.
Abbey Christian Brothers' Grammar School, Our Lady's Grammar School, Sacred Heart Grammar School, and St Colman's College which are all in Newry, and St Louis Grammar School, in Kilkeel, announced the move in a letter to parents.
In the joint letter, they said that they had considered the impact of school closures due to the coronavirus pandemic on the local community. They added that they recognised "there has been disruption to the education of pupils since March 2020, including that of P6 pupils, and understand that there may be further disruption during the 2020-21 academic year". "As a result, none of the five schools will use outcomes from GL Entrance Assessment as part of their admissions criteria for the academic year 2021-22." Pupils applying to these schools will not be required to provide a GL Entrance Assessment result. The five schools said the move was for one year only for pupils due to sit the transfer tests in December 2020 and enter the schools in September 2021.
They added that the decision was made after "careful consideration" and is "specific and particular to this group of five schools". "Each school remains committed to its own ethos and academic focus on high quality teaching and learning. "It is hoped that this decision will provide clarity in the local area for P6 pupils and their parents or carers." Over 20 other Catholic grammar schools who use the transfer tests run by the PPTC have yet to announce if they will also change their admissions procedure for 2021. Around 30 other grammar schools in Northern Ireland use the transfer test set by AQE to admit pupils.
Let's hope the pressure is exerted on those individuals who make up the Boards of Governors of the remaining grammar schools.
Will be very interesting to see how they work entry criteria .
What happens school transport ?
If a pupil lives closer to a local secondary school how will they now receive free transport if the school is no longer a grammar school?
Massive can of worms that ...
Quote from: FermGael on May 29, 2020, 05:55:39 PM
Will be very interesting to see how they work there entry criteria .
What happens school transport ?
If a pupil lives further than 5 miles from the school but within 2 miles of a local secondary will they still be entitled to a free bus pass now the school is no longer classified as a grammar by its own entry criteria ?
Massive can of worms that ...
Hopefully the beginning of the end of academic selection
Good move
Playing devils advocate
What happens when all G Schools over subscribed who gets turned away and why?
Selection policy?
There will be a lot of opposition to getting rid of the grammar schools completely. The GCSE and A Level league tables usually show a bunch of Catholic Grammar schools at the top. A lot of egos would be bruised if that was to change.
I got an A in my 11+ by helping my Master sell vegetables at the weekend.
Sub Criteria For Abbey Christian Brothers, Newry used for Sept 2020.
Boys who, at the date of their application, have a parent/guardian who is a member of the permanent teaching, administrative, or ancillary staff of the Abbey.
Boys who, at the date of their application, have another boy of the family (as defined by DE in Transfer 2010 Guidance) attending the school or having been selected for admission to the school in the coming school year.
Boys who have had another boy of the family (as defined by DE in Transfer 2010 Guidance) previously attend the school.
Boys whose father/guardian attended the school.
Boys who are the first boy of the family (as defined by DE in Transfer 2010 Guidance) to transfer to secondary education, i.e. the eldest boy of the family as defined above.
Boys who are the first boy of the family (as defined by DE in Transfer 2010 Guidance) to apply to a Grammar School.
Boys who, at the date of their application, are entitled to Free School Meals Provision (as defined by DE in Transfer 2010 Guidance).
Other boys ranked by date of birth with the youngest boy admitted first and all other boys admitted by age (youngest first) until all places have been filled.
Joe B may get the business cards ready!
Some of these criteria have already been subject to Judicial Review
If that's is the criteria then good luck to them.
They will find themselves in court alot
Quote from: hardstation on May 29, 2020, 09:29:56 PM
Where did you get that, delgany?
Apologies that is their current criteria...getting admission year mixed up.
As I said previously the lawyers will be sharpening the knives !
What happens if my Johhny doesn't get in but I think he should? And your Johnny gets in before mine? I can see some headaches down the line. Or some kind of internal testing in primary schools and selection from that? No other way around that
Because it's only for a year and will still be a grammar school
That's why
What if I want my Johnny to go to the grammar school and he isn't accepted next year? This is real life stuff don't say that won't happen because it will
So what's wrong with doing an 11+ in general?
And having Grammar schools? Really don't see what's the issue e
Quote from: Smurfy123 on May 30, 2020, 09:18:29 AM
So what's wrong with doing an 11+ in general?
And having Grammar schools? Really don't see what's the issue e
Because it excludes children at a very young age. It is also an easy out for lazy teachers. Teach the best and f**k the rest. It's not the sort of society we should aspire to.
It's doesn't exclude anybody? It gets children at a level where they need to be. What happens at theses schools next year where a child at the bottom end as miles behind the top kid in the same class. A big struggle
No I don't wish too. Why comment in the first place if all was discussed? Clearly not when you decide to discuss.
Primary schools classes have children of all abilities in them and the teacher has to tailor his/her planning and delivery of lesson to ensure that the needs of all are met. It is hard, hard work.
Grammar schools, by selecting the best academically, avoid this heavy lifting. The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier
So who gets into the Newry grammar schools? Are they using predicted grades or something similar?
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 30, 2020, 12:37:24 PM
Primary schools classes have children of all abilities in them and the teacher has to tailor his/her planning and delivery of lesson to ensure that the needs of all are met. It is hard, hard work.
Grammar schools, by selecting the best academically, avoid this heavy lifting. The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier
"The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier "
While should we choose to make teaching harder? If dividing students by academic achievement means that teachers can aim lessons at a more similar group that should make it easier for all teachers, not just grammar school teachers.
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 04:47:55 PM
Non-grammar teachers just teach to the one "dumbed down" level too.
Primary teachers don't differentiate either. They just teach what they have to. Those who get it go to grammar schools. Those who don't go to non-grammars.
So all in all, a pretty straight forward process that works well in the end.
Obviously.
Primary schools in North definitely differentiate the work for pupils. They have different reading groups, spelling groups , maths tasks.
There is a wide range of abilities to work with. You would have pupils with a cognitive ability score in the 130+ and pupils with learning barriers with ability scores below 80.
ROI may be different, with a one size fits all approach.
Have school Inspection services been ramped up down South yet ? Or is it just advisory ? Or a soft touch ?
Quote from: dec on May 30, 2020, 04:34:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 30, 2020, 12:37:24 PM
Primary schools classes have children of all abilities in them and the teacher has to tailor his/her planning and delivery of lesson to ensure that the needs of all are met. It is hard, hard work.
Grammar schools, by selecting the best academically, avoid this heavy lifting. The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier
"The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier "
While should we choose to make teaching harder? If dividing students by academic achievement means that teachers can aim lessons at a more similar group that should make it easier for all teachers, not just grammar school teachers.
What the grammars aim to do by selection is to avoid having to deal with the pupils who need one to one attention and pupils who learn at a slower rate than than the best academically as well as pupils from the travelling community who are not normally academically gifted. Sure let the secondary schools deal with them
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 04:47:55 PM
Non-grammar teachers just teach to the one "dumbed down" level too.
Primary teachers don't differentiate either. They just teach what they have to. Those who get it go to grammar schools. Those who don't go to non-grammars.
So all in all, a pretty straight forward process that works well in the end.
Obviously.
Primary school teachers do differentiate each and every day for each and every pupil who require it
I would find it very hard to believe that no primary school teachers differentiate. Even the laziest ones I know differentiate. In every classroom there are usually 3 groups you would be working with.
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 08:15:13 PM
They do aye. I know a couple of primary school teachers who say they haven't differentiated since A Level maths and wouldn't know how to if asked.
Or at least that's the type of self-suited anecdotal drivel that gets stuck on to the end of baseless "facts" like the ones you are producing.
So 2 teachers admit to you they don't do their job properly.? You are either making it up or they are winding you up.
How can you say that primary school teachers don't differentiate ?
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 30, 2020, 09:02:18 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 08:15:13 PM
They do aye. I know a couple of primary school teachers who say they haven't differentiated since A Level maths and wouldn't know how to if asked.
Or at least that's the type of self-suited anecdotal drivel that gets stuck on to the end of baseless "facts" like the ones you are producing.
So 2 teachers admit to you they don't do their job properly.? You are either making it up or they are winding you up.
How can you say that primary school teachers don't differentiate ?
Quote from: delgany on May 30, 2020, 09:43:08 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 30, 2020, 09:02:18 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 08:15:13 PM
They do aye. I know a couple of primary school teachers who say they haven't differentiated since A Level maths and wouldn't know how to if asked.
Or at least that's the type of self-suited anecdotal drivel that gets stuck on to the end of baseless "facts" like the ones you are producing.
So 2 teachers admit to you they don't do their job properly.? You are either making it up or they are winding you up.
How can you say that primary school teachers don't differentiate ?
Load of BS , that is hardstation .
So your teacher mates , dont have different reading and spelling or maths groups .
They are taking the hand out of you ! No doubt, they are two gaa men full of bravado .
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 11:09:26 PM
I see I got the primary school teachers' backs up. I was of course taking the piss. But sure we'll let this fly by no problem.....
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 30, 2020, 12:37:24 PM
Grammar schools, by selecting the best academically, avoid this heavy lifting. The teach to the class as a whole all day long with no differentiation. Much much easier
I don't think secondary teaching is the same level of differentiation. I don't doubt that secondary school teachers differentiate though. They have to. It would be impossible to just teach everyone the same thing all year round.
Quote from: hardstation on May 30, 2020, 11:57:15 PM
Jimbob seemed to be making it a "I work harder than him" snorefest. We'll go out and clap him on Wednesday nights.
You've chucked in the towel Hardstation. ;D
Pathetic response.
You realise you lost the argument and are now attempting to be a smsrtalec to divert away from that fact.
Tell me , how can you say for certain that no primary school teacher differentiates their work. Try to answer without attempting a silly attempt at humour to deflect the topic
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2020, 12:29:28 AM
I'm not saying that. Of course they do. Me saying that was in response to you saying that grammar school teachers don't differentiate. That is a ridiculous statement and I was merely trying to show you that it's very simple to say something of little substance which can only be backed up by anecdotal evidence like "I know a teacher..." which we all know can be taken as shite.
Fair enough.....
Quote from: hardstation on May 31, 2020, 12:56:47 AM
If I'm honest, I really expected you to pick up on that much earlier.
Naw What you thought was obvious......wasn't
Was a poor effort to be honest
Lagan Integrated College in Belfast has pulled academic selection for its grammar stream. It is a bi- lateral scheme . Over subscribed by 300 applications last year.
The newry schools were oversubscribed by 38, 51, 64 and 78 applications . Kilkeel school was under subscribed by 20 places .
Depending on enrolment trends they would be able to manage s selection process based on siblings and eldest child and some parental attachment
Lagan College have dropped the tests for this year as well. Good to see. Will put more pressure on those grammars who appear to be still holding out.
Quote from: Jim Bob on May 31, 2020, 06:50:50 PM
Lagan College have dropped the tests for this year as well. Good to see. Will put more pressure on those grammars who appear to be still holding out.
I e a mate that teaches there. What was their entrance marks to their 'grammar' stream?
Should it not just be on looks. All the top smartest people are handsome and beautiful. Most women CEOs are spectacular. I remember in Dungannon all the good looking lads and women went to the Academy. Some rare ones across the road.
Quote from: Smurfy123 on May 30, 2020, 08:43:10 AM
Because it's only for a year and will still be a grammar school
That's why
What if I want my Johnny to go to the grammar school and he isn't accepted next year? This is real life stuff don't say that won't happen because it will
Could the primary schools divulge the pupils standardised scores over P6 or whatever?
There will be a few kids who just won't be able to cope even if mummy and daddy want them to attend!
Jeez I remember in my primnary school class we had a list of everyones names on the wall 1-25 of smartest to not so smart! Try that one now!
Quote from: johnnycool on June 01, 2020, 10:03:17 AM
Quote from: Smurfy123 on May 30, 2020, 08:43:10 AM
Because it's only for a year and will still be a grammar school
That's why
What if I want my Johnny to go to the grammar school and he isn't accepted next year? This is real life stuff don't say that won't happen because it will
Could the primary schools divulge the pupils standardised scores over P6 or whatever?
There will be a few kids who just won't be able to cope even if mummy and daddy want them to attend!
The P6 standardised scores are based on GL assessments ( not to be confused with the actual GL test ). They are generally undertaken in May/ June, in most schools, so no scores available.
There would also be differences in test application by schools , some use computer based tests and some use paper tests.
This could lead to discrepancies between the outcomes .
The scores would be subject to parents agreeing to share them as well.
Ultimately , parents complete the post primary applications , you be hoping they would listen to the primary schools advice.
The difficulty lies with the small group of children who would be borderline both in standardised scores, and they can either max out in the exams and do well or can slip down . They are the hardest calls for schools and indeed parents .
If post primary schools use non academic criteria , those kids that are the eldest/ only child and/ or have siblings at a school will be most likely to gain access to the school of their choice.
However , there will be a small group of children , who may struggle to get admitted as they dont match the criteria for schools that are heavily oversubscribed eg Lagan college was oversubscribed by 300 last year .
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 01, 2020, 10:19:31 AM
Jeez I remember in my primnary school class we had a list of everyones names on the wall 1-25 of smartest to not so smart! Try that one now!
Had the same thing at Grammar school for the first 3 years
Quote from: tintin25 on June 01, 2020, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 01, 2020, 10:19:31 AM
Jeez I remember in my primnary school class we had a list of everyones names on the wall 1-25 of smartest to not so smart! Try that one now!
Had the same thing at Grammar school for the first 3 years
We had 3 rows from P 5 onwards....based on your summer exam results from the previous year. That's right we did Christmas and Summer tests and had a proper report book etc. The ones in row 3 also went to the Remedial Reading and Maths Class. Imagine that nowadays and being called that!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 01, 2020, 10:44:03 AM
Quote from: tintin25 on June 01, 2020, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 01, 2020, 10:19:31 AM
Jeez I remember in my primnary school class we had a list of everyones names on the wall 1-25 of smartest to not so smart! Try that one now!
Had the same thing at Grammar school for the first 3 years
We had 3 rows from P 5 onwards....based on your summer exam results from the previous year. That's right we did Christmas and Summer tests and had a proper report book etc. The ones in row 3 also went to the Remedial Reading and Maths Class. Imagine that nowadays and being called that!
So did we, with the top group getting more help with the 11 plus than the others. Had the remedial class, was also referred to as the special class
Not sure what the names of those classes are now.
Would expect to see solicitor letters being sent if 'our wee Johnny' doesnt get in to the school of his choice next year
If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!
And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.
What happens now if you are looking to go to a grammar school with no family ties or other children in the school? No point in applying?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 01, 2020, 12:52:28 PM
If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!
And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.
It is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 01, 2020, 12:52:28 PM
If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!
And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.
It is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens
That could be 30 different lesson plans for 30 different level of kids in one class.
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens
Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.
In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.
Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.
You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?
There needs to be streaming at some point. It dos not make sense to have one group in a class learning calculus while others are still trying to master algebra. However a system that dictates your next 7 years of education based on a single day of tests is nuts.
It is a complicated problem that can't be solved by simply getting rid of the test. The current system is mostly built around the transfer test and the Protestant/Catholic school divide so ending up in with a system where everyone can go to your local school and be able to progress at an appropriate speed will be extremely difficult.
The ability gaps widen as they get older. It wouldn't make sense to try follow the primary school model to 14/15 year olds. The differences in ability would be massive. The Dixon plan in Lurgan was the perfect way of doing things in my opinion and now they've removed that to create St. Ronan's. Any of my friends who teach there say it is a disaster so far. The new principal has some job on her hands.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 01, 2020, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens
Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.
In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.
Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.
You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?
Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach.
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 02, 2020, 12:11:41 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 01, 2020, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens
Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.
In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.
Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.
You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?
Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach.
We've a very good educational system, comprehensive schools still stream as do secondary schools, I went to a secondary school, it was streamed.
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?
I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2020, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?
I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already
You can still pay into a Grammar though?
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 02, 2020, 12:11:41 AM
Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach.
Realistically, you don't have 5 streams per subject. Or if you do, the last are those with dedicated TAs.
Anyway, the major problem I have with your post is - "let the secondary school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically".
As usual, all a teacher can think of is "academically". There is a point below which its a waste of time trying to teach academical matters - those kids are better off served with vocational learning. They'll be more interested and it'll be far more useful to them in the long run.
Grammar schools are
not the problem - a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.
What is the point of Jimmy trying to learn f**king Shakespeare when he has no interest in it and wants to be a mechanic? Even in subjects that would be useful, like maths or physics, he doesn't grasp their application in the real world so switches off. Whereas, if he was doing a vocational course in motor mechanics, he'd learn about torques, clearances & tolerances, pressures, voltages, currents & resistances etc etc - by seeing their relevance to what he wants to do - there is a real interest there in understanding.
There has to be streaming of some sort. Makes no sense to have not just many different stages of progression within the same class, but also some in the class who don't want to be there. I feel sorry for kids who, irrespective of ability, want to learn and progress themselves, however, when there is an element who are not interested in even being there never mind learning, that makes it difficult for all. Like it or not, at least the streaming removed that from the equation.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 02, 2020, 12:21:34 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2020, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?
I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already
You can still pay into a Grammar though?
Well as far as I'm aware the prep schools are still about, though to get into any grammar you have to pass the test.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 12:47:21 PM
Grammar schools are not the problem - a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.
Are you comparing grammar schools results to schools in the English comprehension system?
That would be a very unfair comparison.
The only thing you can compare grammar school results is to other grammar schools in England.
Quote from: balladmaker on June 02, 2020, 12:54:01 PM
There has to be streaming of some sort. Makes no sense to have not just many different stages of progression within the same class, but also some in the class who don't want to be there. I feel sorry for kids who, irrespective of ability, want to learn and progress themselves, however, when there is an element who are not interested in even being there never mind learning, that makes it difficult for all. Like it or not, at least the streaming removed that from the equation.
Streaming exists in nearly every school. Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation. That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.
I've 3 ability groups in my class. I put 3 different levels of work up for maths and English each day on Google Classroom. It's pretty straight forward and easy to be honest. My last school was very difficult however. I could have had anything from 3 to 8 different ability groups. Totally unrealistic to try and achieve the correct differentiation each day for that class. I had children scoring 130+ in PIE and PIM, to children working at P2 level and then 4/5 children not able to speak one word of English. I had 1 classroom assistant there for a few hours each day to look after a boy with behavioural needs. I often wondered what that extra money for EAL children was used for, because it certainly wasn't used to withdraw children from my room to teach them English! In my opinion for the likes of that school it maybe would have been better to stream the 3 P7 classes. It would be some row with the parents though!
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 01:53:23 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 12:47:21 PM
Grammar schools are not the problem - a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.
Are you comparing grammar schools results to schools in the English comprehension system?
That would be a very unfair comparison.
The only thing you can compare grammar school results is to other grammar schools in England.
No, I'm comparing NI results as a whole (which includes grammars) to results in England (which is mainly comprehensive).
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 01:55:40 PM
Streaming exists in nearly every school. Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation. That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.
There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.
I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.
Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 01:55:40 PM
Streaming exists in nearly every school. Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation. That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.
There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.
I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.
Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.
That's a great solution, I would have done better had such an approach been taken. Edit: probably pushing it with that statement ;D
That's basically the Dickson plan that existed in Lurgan for many years.
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 04:17:59 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 01:55:40 PM
Streaming exists in nearly every school. Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation. That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.
There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.
I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.
Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Would love to have a good read of it.
Most of the "strong" evidence I have read is usually produced by some organisation with a vested interest .
I will not argue with the fact that streaming seems to do well for the very brightest. It's just the other 95% that it does not seem to work out for.
As for comparing results with England you are correct to a point .
The top do better. But that shouldn't be a surprise.
But we have more pupils leave here with 5 or fewer GCSE'S compared to the English system .
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo
What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?
Free childcare
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:32:49 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?
Free childcare
Kids get very bored, fairly quickly if they can't understand the work or it's not difficult. Streaming of some sort happens in every secondary school.
Teachers don't have the time in their timetable to teach the way they would like, subjects have a timeline before moving on to the next topic. Catch up can be done during revision classes but it's not always that easy.
It's also not fair to put a pupil in a class that they'll struggle in, they won't progress, if they are in a smaller class then the teacher has the ability to work the class better, smaller class size would produce better results.
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Are you for real?
Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Are you for real?
Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.
Why are you comparing the results to England?
I would be more interested in looking at Finland.
Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.
If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English.
Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Are you for real?
Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.
Why are you comparing the results to England?
I would be more interested in looking at Finland.
Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.
If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English.
Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....
Good article here about the Finnish system:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/
I hear their language is very regular and easy for kids to learn, but there are still some good lessons.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo
What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?
A bit like a brickie I laboured for one summer who didn't realise he used Pythagoras theorem almost every day.
Quote from: johnnycool on June 03, 2020, 07:43:45 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2020, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo
What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?
A bit like a brickie I laboured for one summer who didn't realise he used Pythagoras theorem almost every day.
That reminds me any maths teachers on here?
Instead of giving your pupils the "it just is" (which is what I got) show them this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVo6szYE13Y
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 06:12:04 PM
Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.
For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?
Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.
Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo
Most people won't be taught differentiation. It's on the A Level syllabus
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 02, 2020, 08:42:16 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 07:12:23 PM
Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Are you for real?
Go compare GCSE and A-level results from NI to England, and run your comparison back as far as you like.
Why are you comparing the results to England?
I would be more interested in looking at Finland.
Because it is by far the most similar social setting to here.
Compare to Finland and you have to attempt to weigh for a large number of differences in society. Of course, that wouldn't suit you...
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 04, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
FTR, there's decades of research written about the overall academic outcomes between the parts of England still using academic selection, and those that don't. The general consensus is that on an overall basis, those English counties still using academic selection are achieving no better overall outcomes compared to elsewhere in the country.
Any links please (genuinely interested)?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on June 04, 2020, 09:44:53 AM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PM
Why are you comparing the results to England?
Because it supports the argument that the system in NI is superior and that no change is needed. However that is a very flawed argument, as it involves essentially a "creaming" of students, particularly at A-Level, against one single country that while itself has a mostly comprehensive public education system, still has three geographic areas where the 11+ still essentially exists (Kent, Buckinghamshire & Lincolnshire). No measure is taken of academic & vocational achievements outside of GCSE's & A-Levels with this thinking - different policies by schools as to wherever what children should be entered into exams e.g. keeping weaker students out of taking GCSEs often to improve "league table" results.
FTR, there's decades of research written about the overall academic outcomes between the parts of England still using academic selection, and those that don't. The general consensus is that on an overall basis, those English counties still using academic selection are achieving no better overall outcomes compared to elsewhere in the country.
A good "fit for purpose" (sorry for using such a cliche) education system helps rise all the boats in a convoy - scuttling the smaller/less powerful ones to make yourself look better is not a nominal public education strategy that is beneficial in the longer term.
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 09:32:46 PMI would be more interested in looking at Finland. Been widely acknowledged as the best education system in the world.
If your stronger evidence is results of English schools then you are setting the bar fairly low internationally.
But don't look at the number of pupils leaving schools here compared to England with no GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's or less than 5 GCSE's including Math's and English.
Now if you can send me evidence that setting produces better results for all pupils I will be happy to have a look....
Finland has been scoring highly in recent PISA tests that compare educational outcomes around the world, as has its neighbour across the water, Estonia. Funnily enough, Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian have similar language roots - I understand those speaking Finnish can somewhat understand Estonian and vice versa, not sure where Hungarian lies, but Hungary has been ranking a lot lower than Finland & Estonia. Anyway, the Finnish language is one of the easiest Indo-European languages to understand between its vocal & written form which helps when it comes to obtaining high scores in reading/literacy. However, what also helps is that teachers in Finland have to obtain a masters degree to teach, they have a lot of autonomy as to how they teach their pupils, have a comprehensive system for students up until 16 y.o., and that the profession is very highly respected in Finnish society - you don't get the begrudgery of teachers that you often see on these isles.
This quote from a lecturer at a teacher training school in Helsinki was a bit of a punch to the guts... "When we got the results, we were thinking, if we are that good, how bad are the others? We were taken by surprise" :o
Final tidbit - funny how you rarely, if ever, see northern nationalists compare the NI school system to that in the south.
Interesting... also heard that the teachers stay with pupils for multiple years.
On a side note I find it interesting that their language is considered very "simple" as they hoors never speak... Kimi Raikkonen is very reflected of my experience with finns
St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .
Quote from: FermGael on June 04, 2020, 09:35:00 PM
St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .
Why are they doing this piecemeal Sh*t, it should be a collective decision across the board either in or out. Totally unfair to have one or two areas making this call and the rest sitting on their hands.
Quote from: NAG1 on June 05, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
Quote from: FermGael on June 04, 2020, 09:35:00 PM
St Michaels And Mount Lourdes in Enniskillen have joined the list of grammars dropping the 11 plus for one year .
Why are they doing this piecemeal Sh*t, it should be a collective decision across the board either in or out. Totally unfair to have one or two areas making this call and the rest sitting on their hands.
The grammar schools are designated "voluntary grammar" .They are completely independent of each other, most were set up by religious orders. They are financed by Dept of Education but are run by their board of Governors.
I'd imagine they are working at a local level due to variations in demographics and levels of over subscription , they would have to deal with .
E.g 2 /5 schools in newry / kilkeel had places not filled yesterday for sept intake.
It will be interesting to see if the grammar schools across Belfast follow suit. That is were the pressure points for admission to year 8 , is most difficult.
The likes of Rathmore will find it difficult to accept children who wouldn't have been straight A students!
Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.
Loreto and Omagh CBS have both dropped the 11 plus for next year.
Quote from: FermGael on June 05, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
Loreto and Omagh CBS have both dropped the 11 plus for next year.
They had started a phased reduction of of academic selection this year , 25 % on Sub criteria , 75% exam result
Quote from: delgany on June 05, 2020, 04:01:04 PM
Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.
Wasn't aware of that. I had a boy who was in the top 5% that didn't get his place in Rathmore a couple of years ago. It has always been a very results driven school in my experiences.
Quote from: JimStynes on June 05, 2020, 10:27:18 PM
Quote from: delgany on June 05, 2020, 04:01:04 PM
Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.
Wasn't aware of that. I had a boy who was in the top 5% that didn't get his place in Rathmore a couple of years ago. It has always been a very results driven school in my experiences.
Very much so, in fact they've been known to do interviews with pupils and their teachers!
Rathmore supposedly turned away 180 A's last year.
Quote from: JimStynes on June 05, 2020, 10:27:18 PM
Quote from: delgany on June 05, 2020, 04:01:04 PM
Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.
Wasn't aware of that. I had a boy who was in the top 5% that didn't get his place in Rathmore a couple of years ago. It has always been a very results driven school in my experiences.
It's just a lottery there though isn't it? When they've filled the first few in the criteria, the As are just a lottery number. Doesn't matter what type of A it is.
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2020, 06:11:16 PM
Quote from: JimStynes on June 05, 2020, 10:27:18 PM
Quote from: delgany on June 05, 2020, 04:01:04 PM
Rathmore, Knock Aquinas & St.Malachys turned down A's this year and they had their admission number increased.
Wasn't aware of that. I had a boy who was in the top 5% that didn't get his place in Rathmore a couple of years ago. It has always been a very results driven school in my experiences.
It's just a lottery there though isn't it? When they've filled the first few in the criteria, the As are just a lottery number. Doesn't matter what type of A it is.
Not sure what way it works to be honest. I just know of a few As who didn't get in and I've never had a child with a B get accepted. So it'll be interesting as to what they decide to do with 2021's intake.
I knew a young lad who got the top score in his primary school but was the only one not to get in. Some system.
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2020, 11:17:30 PM
I knew a young lad who got the top score in his primary school but was the only one not to get in. Some system.
Last name Brolly?
Quote from: ONeill on June 06, 2020, 11:17:30 PM
I knew a young lad who got the top score in his primary school but was the only one not to get in. Some system.
Was this for Rathmore ?
Thornhill and St Columbs in Derry drop the 11 plus for one year.
St Columbs didn't fill all its places this year but Thornhill would be very over subscribed