Northern Ireland The Centenary of OWC

[6th sam]

How were the Irish Prods treated in the south post 21?

The elevated position of the catholic church in the new state is remarkable, since the church didn't appear to be  instrumental in the securing of "freedom" . However they seem to have been successful in influencing FG and FF in the new state. No doubt that made it uncomfortable for Protestants with relocation to Britain and the North etc probably contributing to a dwindling population. Those that remained would mainly have become integrated in the new state . I am not aware of strong evidence that there was large Protestant unemployment, gerrymandering, voting discrimination, housing discrimination or sectarian violence , to the same extent as the North, but I stand corrected if others know better.

[Milltown Row2]

How were the Irish Prods treated in the south post 21?

The elevated position of the catholic church in the new state is remarkable, since the church didn't appear to be  instrumental in the securing of "freedom" . However they seem to have been successful in influencing FG and FF in the new state. No doubt that made it uncomfortable for Protestants with relocation to Britain and the North etc probably contributing to a dwindling population. Those that remained would mainly have become integrated in the new state . I am not aware of strong evidence that there was large Protestant unemployment, gerrymandering, voting discrimination, housing discrimination or sectarian violence , to the same extent as the North, but I stand corrected if others know better.

I don't think there was to be honest but the emigration was substantial and children in schools seemed to be educated the Irish way which pushed kids to be educated in England or up north!

[Rossfan]

A large proportion of them were large landowners or business owners and they were generally much wealthier than the Catholic population.
Some had been too loyal to the Brits in the War of Independence and scarpered away after the Treaty.
The big Estates run on 19th Century lines were impossible to keep up so many sold to the Land Commission and departed to England.
There certainly was no systematic policy of discrimination as practised in the 6 but there were instances of individual cases.
One was the case of Dr  Kathleen Lynn who wasn't given a top job in a Maternity Hospital because the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin didn't want a C of I person who presumably might corrupt Catholic mothers.
There was a case of Mayo CoCo CoCo wouldn't appoint a Protestant as Head Librarian but did Dev instruct them to give her the job?
Then there was Fethard on Sea in Wexford and a boycott in the 1950s.

[Main Street]

Sorry but I am not a British National, whatever you are the British might think. I believe Emma de Souza has sorted that legally as well.

In the De Souza case, my understanding is that the UK Home Office is now preparing to allow her to file an application for her husband to obtain permanent residency recognising her as an Irish citizen on the basis that the UKHO is to consider those born in (insert your preference for "that area" here) whom are entitled to Irish citizenship to file such an application as a European Union citizen for which a programme presently exists for settlement during the transition period from leaving the EU (as the UK is currently in) without having to renounce UK citizenship in the process. It would appear that the courts have found that the "expression of identity" clause in the Good Friday Agreement meant that Ms. De Souza was being discriminated against when making the application for residency by the UKHO insisting that if you are deemed a UK citizen, you must apply as such otherwise it would not proceed. Fair play to her for her determination in what was very much a test case.

However, in the eyes of the law in the UK, she is still deemed a UK citizen as is anyone born in (ARGH!) under British Citizenship qualification rules. Wherever you or I like it or not is immaterial within the eyes of British law. We had a thread on this a while back, pointing out that national citizenship is bestowed by nation states by various methods whom may allow you to renounce it by following certain legal procedures - but it is not necessarily cheap.

What the De Souza case has set a marker for is for those born in N******n I*****d whom solely identify themselves with Irish citizenship can do so without having to formally identify themselves as British (even if the UK state deems them as such). However what this means beyond her and her husband's case (and those in a very similar scenario) is perhaps still up for legal debate.

The De Souza case set no such marker. Can Irish nationals not get it out of their head  that the GFA's clause on identity  is relatively meaningless until and unless  it's put into law? 
Identity has nothing to do with it.  Emily identifying with Irish nationality has nothing to do with it. It is about the nationality law and what the law recognises, in this case British nationality Law.Emily could identify with being as Kerry as Peig Sayers, that means sfa in the eyes of the law.
Irish Nationality is secondary to the British nationality that is imposed upon Irish nationals born in NI.

[Milltown Row2]

Just what the free state government wanted when it turned its back

[Applesisapples]

To be fair you are most likely to hear Southern Irish people such as Rossfan either expressly or by insinuation suggest we in the North are somehow less than full citizens. I use Northern Ireland were appropriate but find it sticks in my teeth, I use the North and NI as well. Doesn't affect my view on a UI to accept that the state exists. It doesn't prevent me questioning the legitimacy of a breakaway state founded on violence and the threat of violence. I have long held the view that had unionists recognised two cultures and administered the state fairly then we wouldn't have had the discord of the last 99 years.

You're not less that full Irish citizens but your Irish citizenship is second class in NI. It is your British nationality which gives you equality in NI under the law. Instead of seeing the GFA as a place to move forward from, the strategy of DUP and their like is to stall or/and pull back on the advances made in the  GFA.  In fact the DUP understand that better than Irish nationals. Whereas the next step for NI  is to have the GFA identity paragraphs  and other stuff be brought into law. 

That for Irish nationals born in NI,  the Irish nationality alone is  treated equal under the law as  British Nationality.
That any NI born can chose now to discard their British nationality free of cost. that those born in the  future in NI are only automatically a British national if at least one of their parents is a British national. That for one born in NI  who has no parents who are a British national, still qualifies to obtain a British nationality should they so desire.

Sorry but I am not a British National, whatever you are the British might think. I believe Emma de Souza has sorted that legally as well.

One of the absurd aspects of post GFA is that the DUP understand the import of nationality issues more clearly than most Irish nationals.

Ni born are british nationals  at birth, it is not removed unless you go through a legal process and if you actually read the temporary resolution to Emma's dilemma, nothing has changed  to the status of  British nationality being the first nationality imposed on all NI born and your Irish nationality is 2nd class.

It truly is absurd that Irish nationals born in NI do not understand British Nationality law and their status as Irish nationals  under that law.

Any state can pass a law doesn't make me any less Irish, that's my choice and birthright.

[Main Street]

To be fair you are most likely to hear Southern Irish people such as Rossfan either expressly or by insinuation suggest we in the North are somehow less than full citizens. I use Northern Ireland were appropriate but find it sticks in my teeth, I use the North and NI as well. Doesn't affect my view on a UI to accept that the state exists. It doesn't prevent me questioning the legitimacy of a breakaway state founded on violence and the threat of violence. I have long held the view that had unionists recognised two cultures and administered the state fairly then we wouldn't have had the discord of the last 99 years.

You're not less that full Irish citizens but your Irish citizenship is second class in NI. It is your British nationality which gives you equality in NI under the law. Instead of seeing the GFA as a place to move forward from, the strategy of DUP and their like is to stall or/and pull back on the advances made in the  GFA.  In fact the DUP understand that better than Irish nationals. Whereas the next step for NI  is to have the GFA identity paragraphs  and other stuff be brought into law. 

That for Irish nationals born in NI,  the Irish nationality alone is  treated equal under the law as  British Nationality.
That any NI born can chose now to discard their British nationality free of cost. that those born in the  future in NI are only automatically a British national if at least one of their parents is a British national. That for one born in NI  who has no parents who are a British national, still qualifies to obtain a British nationality should they so desire.

Sorry but I am not a British National, whatever you are the British might think. I believe Emma de Souza has sorted that legally as well.

One of the absurd aspects of post GFA is that the DUP understand the import of nationality issues more clearly than most Irish nationals.

Ni born are british nationals  at birth, it is not removed unless you go through a legal process and if you actually read the temporary resolution to Emma's dilemma, nothing has changed  to the status of  British nationality being the first nationality imposed on all NI born and your Irish nationality is 2nd class.

It truly is absurd that Irish nationals born in NI do not understand British Nationality law and their status as Irish nationals  under that law.

Any state can pass a law doesn't make me any less Irish, that's my choice and birthright.

Who's claiming you're less Irish?  This is not about feelings, this is about  basic civil rights 101.
NI born Irish nationals  are British nationals at birth whether a person recognises it or not.  And regardless of how you only identify with your Irish nationality, it is your British Nationality that's legal tender in the UK. The DUP were quite correct  under the law, it is your British nationality that is protected and takes precedence. A superior nationality, eg, only a British national can play representative sport for the IFA team. The same goes for any other NI  representative team, also  GB+NI .

You referred to Emily as sorting something out. Why so? What do you think she sorted out that needed sorting out?
Now you might be aware that she sorted out nothing, does it not matter to you anymore that something still needs to be sorted out?

The temporary relief for people in Emily's situation only refers to EU citizens, not specifically Irish nationals. Other  NI born Irish nationals  went through the legal process of discarding their imposed British nationality in order to protect their partners/spouses' residence and civil rights, in post Brexit UK.
Why shouldn't Irish only nationality for NI born  have the same equal status that British nationality has in the law? The logical next step is to take Emily's cause and the GFA clauses to the next stage.

[Applesisapples]

To be fair you are most likely to hear Southern Irish people such as Rossfan either expressly or by insinuation suggest we in the North are somehow less than full citizens. I use Northern Ireland were appropriate but find it sticks in my teeth, I use the North and NI as well. Doesn't affect my view on a UI to accept that the state exists. It doesn't prevent me questioning the legitimacy of a breakaway state founded on violence and the threat of violence. I have long held the view that had unionists recognised two cultures and administered the state fairly then we wouldn't have had the discord of the last 99 years.

You're not less that full Irish citizens but your Irish citizenship is second class in NI. It is your British nationality which gives you equality in NI under the law. Instead of seeing the GFA as a place to move forward from, the strategy of DUP and their like is to stall or/and pull back on the advances made in the  GFA.  In fact the DUP understand that better than Irish nationals. Whereas the next step for NI  is to have the GFA identity paragraphs  and other stuff be brought into law. 

That for Irish nationals born in NI,  the Irish nationality alone is  treated equal under the law as  British Nationality.
That any NI born can chose now to discard their British nationality free of cost. that those born in the  future in NI are only automatically a British national if at least one of their parents is a British national. That for one born in NI  who has no parents who are a British national, still qualifies to obtain a British nationality should they so desire.

Sorry but I am not a British National, whatever you are the British might think. I believe Emma de Souza has sorted that legally as well.

One of the absurd aspects of post GFA is that the DUP understand the import of nationality issues more clearly than most Irish nationals.

Ni born are british nationals  at birth, it is not removed unless you go through a legal process and if you actually read the temporary resolution to Emma's dilemma, nothing has changed  to the status of  British nationality being the first nationality imposed on all NI born and your Irish nationality is 2nd class.

It truly is absurd that Irish nationals born in NI do not understand British Nationality law and their status as Irish nationals  under that law.

Any state can pass a law doesn't make me any less Irish, that's my choice and birthright.

Who's claiming you're less Irish?  This is not about feelings, this is about  basic civil rights 101.
NI born Irish nationals  are British nationals at birth whether a person recognises it or not.  And regardless of how you only identify with your Irish nationality, it is your British Nationality that's legal tender in the UK. The DUP were quite correct  under the law, it is your British nationality that is protected and takes precedence. A superior nationality, eg, only a British national can play representative sport for the IFA team. The same goes for any other NI  representative team, also  GB+NI .

You referred to Emily as sorting something out. Why so? What do you think she sorted out that needed sorting out?
Now you might be aware that she sorted out nothing, does it not matter to you anymore that something still needs to be sorted out?

The temporary relief for people in Emily's situation only refers to EU citizens, not specifically Irish nationals. Other  NI born Irish nationals  went through the legal process of discarding their imposed British nationality in order to protect their partners/spouses' residence and civil rights, in post Brexit UK.
Why shouldn't Irish only nationality for NI born  have the same equal status that British nationality has in the law? The logical next step is to take Emily's cause and the GFA clauses to the next stage.

Sorry but I'm too old to play representative sport but even if I wasn't there would be no chance of me representing NI. As I said the British can treat me as a UK citizen if they so wish. It doesn't make me one and it isn't about feelings. The reason NI will never work is unionist failure to accept the legitimacy of my Irish citizenship and identity.

[Rossfan]

It's going to be a wonderful inclusive celebration according to Bozo

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40031879.html

[Applesisapples]

<snip>As I said the British can treat me as a UK citizen if they so wish. It doesn't make me one and it isn't about feelings.<snip> ---8<--

For the record, it is not just the UK Government that would consider you an UK Citizen but also the Irish Government too (your Irish citizenship, notwithstanding), as well as pretty much most nations on this planet. For example, if you were in Britain and you were arrested in very dodgy circumstances, if you were to approach the Irish Embassy or Consulate for help on the grounds that you believed yourself to be a foreigner in GB (i.e. don't hold UK citizenship) they & the DFA would almost certainly refuse to give any diplomatic assistance on the grounds that you are a recognised citizen of the country that you were arrested in - this is standard international diplomatic protocol where dual or multiple citizenship is concerned.

I'm not willing to test that but I'd say depending on the circumstances as with the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 they would. I wouldn't expect help if I robbed a bank.

[red hander]

It's going to be a wonderful inclusive celebration according to Bozo

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40031879.html

Deluded gobshite.

[armaghniac]

It's going to be a wonderful inclusive celebration according to Bozo

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40031879.html

Deluded gobshite.

Likely Bozo is not deluded, he has a record of playing along to the audience in the 6 counties and then doing the opposite.

[Milltown Row2]

It'll be celebrated like the 12th, one side will have the best craic and the others will continue on without lifting an eyebrow...

[imtommygunn]

Or the Queen's jubilee. Really not one shite could a lot of people give I suspect.

[BennyCake]

It'll be celebrated like the 12th, one side will have the best craic and the others will continue on without lifting an eyebrow...

Aye, but at least we can all go to Bundoran for the statutory day off