Money, Dublin and the GAA

[highorlow]

Mayo lost to Kildare, because Kildare were a better team, at home, on the day

If it was away or neutral would Kildare have risen to the heights we haven't seen them rise to since the first 20 minutes of last years Leinster Final?

[Hound]

I may be wrong but has there not been research on this that says home advantage is worth 4 points to the home team?

That's pretty much completely made up nonsense based on a limited dataset. It'd be similar to saying this year's matches proves it's an advantage to be away in the qualifiers.

It's impossible to quantify in GAA terms. Like last year you've Mayo drawing with Ros one week (and lucky to draw) and hammering them out the gate the next. Impossible to pick certain games and say it proves anything as the same two teams can play other in the exact same conditions and produce two completely different results.

Anyone talking home advantage is worth X number of points in talking out their hole.

The basketball one was interesting, because they measure free-throw success. Same court dimensions in every court and the success rate was exactly the same home or away, despite home fans booing away throwers.

Comparing free taking success from similar distances in different grounds might be one way to come up with a reasonable measure. Anecdotedly there have been some opposition players who wilt when shooting into the Hill and some who thrive. When Mayo take a good portion of the Hill, do the stats change? Does Dean Rock have a better free taking success rate in Croke Park versus other pitches?

A son of a Dublin mentor told me (about 18/24 months ago) that they'd done an analysis and found Dubs have better shot success rate into the Canal End rather than the Hill, which had surprised them. Dubs have chosen to play into the Hill first half in some big games in recent years, and I'd wondered if that analysis had anything to do with it. When the new Canal End / Davin End had opened first, the scoring rate into it for most teams was apparently worse than into the Hill, but that seems to have changed now.

[CJ2017]

notable parallel from last year in the AFL over home/neutral issues, have posted a few quotes, interesting question at the end from the article, I cant think of any recent examples...

Full article here
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/geelong/geelong-wants-all-its-home-finals-to-be-played-at-simonds-stadium-except-grand-final/news-story/f5e8f6f122618f1070eea0da3d76cef6

"Geelong wants all its home finals to be played at Simonds Stadium, except Grand Final

Cats president Colin Carter on Friday told the Herald Sun the AFL's position of moving finals to neutral venues to boost capacity was "indefensible".

Carter has called on the league to put in place a clear policy about how it fixtures finals venues.

But while he admits convincing the league to play preliminary finals at the 34,000-seat capacity Simonds Stadium is a challenge, he says the Cats deserve the right.

The Cats plan to increase the capacity of Simonds Stadium to 40,000 in coming years and also want to play all 11 home-and-away games there.

AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan said last Saturday the league did not want to prevent fans from attending finals at smaller-capacity stadiums.

But Carter says the AFL's view does not stack up with world sport and denies clubs their natural right to home finals.

"If you have earned the right to a home final lets accept the Grand Final is at the MCG but I think everything else should be up for grabs.

"Name one other competition around the world where monetising (a final) takes precedence over earned right.

"You would be hard pushed to find it."

[johnnycool]

Saturday nights Kildare result puts paid to the Dubs argument that home advantage in Croke park is not home advantage.

One on the Dubs or maybe more on here have been spouting that Croker is not a home venue as Mayo got as many a crowd as them into the place over the last few years.

Well we outnumbered the home team on Saturday but I guess that wasn't enough to counter the obvious 3 point advantage a (div1 or 2) home team has from the off.

Kildare had the advantage of sleeping in their own beds and watching there own teles on the Friday night, small thing but means a lot. The Dubs have this advantage year in year out.

But their home pitch is Parnell...

When's the last time Dublin senior footballers played a competitive match on it?

I'm not talking about the O'Byrne cup either.

Unlike Kildare, we're not "win and at all costs". We're happy to forego home advantage to ensure as many of our fans get into the game as possible!

Generous to a fault are you Dubs.
DCB is a veritable charity these days, taking in homeless coaches and finding them jobs in various clubs/schools throughout the county and all you get is abuse over it.

[haranguerer]

I may be wrong but has there not been research on this that says home advantage is worth 4 points to the home team?

That's pretty much completely made up nonsense based on a limited dataset. It'd be similar to saying this year's matches proves it's an advantage to be away in the qualifiers.

It's impossible to quantify in GAA terms. Like last year you've Mayo drawing with Ros one week (and lucky to draw) and hammering them out the gate the next. Impossible to pick certain games and say it proves anything as the same two teams can play other in the exact same conditions and produce two completely different results.

Anyone talking home advantage is worth X number of points in talking out their hole.

The basketball one was interesting, because they measure free-throw success. Same court dimensions in every court and the success rate was exactly the same home or away, despite home fans booing away throwers.

Comparing free taking success from similar distances in different grounds might be one way to come up with a reasonable measure. Anecdotedly there have been some opposition players who wilt when shooting into the Hill and some who thrive. When Mayo take a good portion of the Hill, do the stats change? Does Dean Rock have a better free taking success rate in Croke Park versus other pitches?

A son of a Dublin mentor told me (about 18/24 months ago) that they'd done an analysis and found Dubs have better shot success rate into the Canal End rather than the Hill, which had surprised them. Dubs have chosen to play into the Hill first half in some big games in recent years, and I'd wondered if that analysis had anything to do with it. When the new Canal End / Davin End had opened first, the scoring rate into it for most teams was apparently worse than into the Hill, but that seems to have changed now.

If, as appears to be the case, you're arguing that there is no such thing as home advantage in GAA, you are talking complete shite

[Hound]

I may be wrong but has there not been research on this that says home advantage is worth 4 points to the home team?

That's pretty much completely made up nonsense based on a limited dataset. It'd be similar to saying this year's matches proves it's an advantage to be away in the qualifiers.

It's impossible to quantify in GAA terms. Like last year you've Mayo drawing with Ros one week (and lucky to draw) and hammering them out the gate the next. Impossible to pick certain games and say it proves anything as the same two teams can play other in the exact same conditions and produce two completely different results.

Anyone talking home advantage is worth X number of points in talking out their hole.

The basketball one was interesting, because they measure free-throw success. Same court dimensions in every court and the success rate was exactly the same home or away, despite home fans booing away throwers.

Comparing free taking success from similar distances in different grounds might be one way to come up with a reasonable measure. Anecdotedly there have been some opposition players who wilt when shooting into the Hill and some who thrive. When Mayo take a good portion of the Hill, do the stats change? Does Dean Rock have a better free taking success rate in Croke Park versus other pitches?

A son of a Dublin mentor told me (about 18/24 months ago) that they'd done an analysis and found Dubs have better shot success rate into the Canal End rather than the Hill, which had surprised them. Dubs have chosen to play into the Hill first half in some big games in recent years, and I'd wondered if that analysis had anything to do with it. When the new Canal End / Davin End had opened first, the scoring rate into it for most teams was apparently worse than into the Hill, but that seems to have changed now.

If, as appears to be the case, you're arguing that there is no such thing as home advantage in GAA, you are talking complete shite

Didnt say that at all. Read the US basketball analysis.

[Hound]

Saturday nights Kildare result puts paid to the Dubs argument that home advantage in Croke park is not home advantage.

One on the Dubs or maybe more on here have been spouting that Croker is not a home venue as Mayo got as many a crowd as them into the place over the last few years.

Well we outnumbered the home team on Saturday but I guess that wasn't enough to counter the obvious 3 point advantage a (div1 or 2) home team has from the off.

Kildare had the advantage of sleeping in their own beds and watching there own teles on the Friday night, small thing but means a lot. The Dubs have this advantage year in year out.

But their home pitch is Parnell...

When's the last time Dublin senior footballers played a competitive match on it?

I'm not talking about the O'Byrne cup either.

Unlike Kildare, we're not "win and at all costs". We're happy to forego home advantage to ensure as many of our fans get into the game as possible!

Generous to a fault are you Dubs.
DCB is a veritable charity these days, taking in homeless coaches and finding them jobs in various clubs/schools throughout the county and all you get is abuse over it.

GPOs are in more counties than Dublin.
And there are plenty of non-Dubs here who are members of Dublin clubs, and they can confirm what it is the GPO actually does in Dublin and that they play virtually no role in turning the likes of Brian Fenton and Con O'Callaghan into top players. They are coached by parents/volunteers in their clubs all the way up and by mostly ex-Dubs players (also volunteers) in Dublin development panels.

[manfromdelmonte]

Saturday nights Kildare result puts paid to the Dubs argument that home advantage in Croke park is not home advantage.

One on the Dubs or maybe more on here have been spouting that Croker is not a home venue as Mayo got as many a crowd as them into the place over the last few years.

Well we outnumbered the home team on Saturday but I guess that wasn't enough to counter the obvious 3 point advantage a (div1 or 2) home team has from the off.

Kildare had the advantage of sleeping in their own beds and watching there own teles on the Friday night, small thing but means a lot. The Dubs have this advantage year in year out.

But their home pitch is Parnell...

When's the last time Dublin senior footballers played a competitive match on it?

I'm not talking about the O'Byrne cup either.

Unlike Kildare, we're not "win and at all costs". We're happy to forego home advantage to ensure as many of our fans get into the game as possible!

Generous to a fault are you Dubs.
DCB is a veritable charity these days, taking in homeless coaches and finding them jobs in various clubs/schools throughout the county and all you get is abuse over it.

GPOs are in more counties than Dublin.
And there are plenty of non-Dubs here who are members of Dublin clubs, and they can confirm what it is the GPO actually does in Dublin and that they play virtually no role in turning the likes of Brian Fenton and Con O'Callaghan into top players. They are coached by parents/volunteers in their clubs all the way up and by mostly ex-Dubs players (also volunteers) in Dublin development panels.

not one club in this county has their own GPO
most clubs in Dublin have their own or shared GPO

[Hound]

Saturday nights Kildare result puts paid to the Dubs argument that home advantage in Croke park is not home advantage.

One on the Dubs or maybe more on here have been spouting that Croker is not a home venue as Mayo got as many a crowd as them into the place over the last few years.

Well we outnumbered the home team on Saturday but I guess that wasn't enough to counter the obvious 3 point advantage a (div1 or 2) home team has from the off.

Kildare had the advantage of sleeping in their own beds and watching there own teles on the Friday night, small thing but means a lot. The Dubs have this advantage year in year out.

But their home pitch is Parnell...

When's the last time Dublin senior footballers played a competitive match on it?

I'm not talking about the O'Byrne cup either.

Unlike Kildare, we're not "win and at all costs". We're happy to forego home advantage to ensure as many of our fans get into the game as possible!

Generous to a fault are you Dubs.
DCB is a veritable charity these days, taking in homeless coaches and finding them jobs in various clubs/schools throughout the county and all you get is abuse over it.

GPOs are in more counties than Dublin.
And there are plenty of non-Dubs here who are members of Dublin clubs, and they can confirm what it is the GPO actually does in Dublin and that they play virtually no role in turning the likes of Brian Fenton and Con O'Callaghan into top players. They are coached by parents/volunteers in their clubs all the way up and by mostly ex-Dubs players (also volunteers) in Dublin development panels.

not one club in this county has their own GPO
most clubs in Dublin have their own or shared GPO

Yep, so what is it that a GPO does, do you think? What's the average age? What's their average coaching experience?

[haranguerer]

If, as appears to be the case, you're arguing that there is no such thing as home advantage in GAA, you are talking complete shite

Didnt say that at all. Read the US basketball analysis.
[/quote]

In the interests of fairness, which should be the basis of all sports, the 'neutral' match shouldn't be played in Dublin. I fail to see how there can be any legitimate argument over that. It shouldn't be a case that one team has to request fair play from the governing body. Getting bogged down in the details of just what home advantage is worth is pointless. The fact is that there is an advantage (and even an illusion of an advantage counts as an advantage), and that is unfair.

[Hound]

If, as appears to be the case, you're arguing that there is no such thing as home advantage in GAA, you are talking complete shite

Didnt say that at all. Read the US basketball analysis.

In the interests of fairness, which should be the basis of all sports, the 'neutral' match shouldn't be played in Dublin. I fail to see how there can be any legitimate argument over that. It shouldn't be a case that one team has to request fair play from the governing body. Getting bogged down in the details of just what home advantage is worth is pointless. The fact is that there is an advantage (and even an illusion of an advantage counts as an advantage), and that is unfair.
[/quote]
So all All Ireland semi finals and finals should be played outside Croke Park, when Dublin are involved?
Would it be ok to hold Dublin minor semis and finals in Croke Park? Although we're pretty poor at that grade in football, but the hurlers might come good.

[haranguerer]

So your argument is, they already get an advantage when it comes to semi finals and finals, so we may as well compound it and give them an advantage in the super 8s, a competition which had at its core home, neutral, away fixtures?

[Hound]

So your argument is, they already get an advantage when it comes to semi finals and finals, so we may as well compound it and give them an advantage in the super 8s, a competition which had at its core home, neutral, away fixtures?

Didn't think I made any argument in that post, I asked a question.

I think you'll find it has "at its core" home, Croke Park and away fixtures.

[haranguerer]

Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance, which it isn't when Dublin are involved.

The question you asked re semis and finals seemed designed to make a point, I just responded to the point. I can understand they are showpiece occasions with capacity crowds, and there are strong arguments for having them in the showpiece venue. Its unfortunate that that showpiece venue isn't a neutral venue, and the pros and cons have to be weighed up.

That should make the GAA more, rather than less, keen to ensure that wherever else possible, they act fairly with regard to venue, but rather, it seems to be used as carte blanche to do what they want as they've got away with it for years.

[Hound]

Sorry, yes, you're correct, but it would seem Croker is intended as a neutral venue in that instance

Do you think?

Maybe so, but I would say they were very deliberate when they said all the first games would be played in Croke Park (and not neutral venues).

As you said, Croke Park is the showpiece venue for showpiece occasions, and it's always been located in Dublin.