Munster Club Championships 2021

[Maroon Manc]

Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

[shark]

Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

No obvious solution to it though. Issue is replicated right across the country. Although just not to the extreme of the Kerry example. If Dublin renamed their Senior B championship as the Intermediate championship (it is the second tier after all), then we would have seen Cuala in the Leinster Intermediate. And possibly Vincents next year, as they got relegated. But we did see Clara in the Leinster Intermediate final after winning the Offaly Senior B. Zero consistency. But what's the fix?
Counties have to be able to run their championships as they see fit. The inter and junior championships are good competitions, but they are not as important as county championships.

[rodney trotter]

Kerry has 64 clubs with just 8 playing Senior Championship.

Some of the Divisional teams are made up of 8 or 9 clubs. A mix of Junior and Intermediate.  It works well for Kerry but its a win at all.cost approach

[tiempo]

Wondering, you can only get promoted to a higher Championship grade in Kerry by winning the Champ at the grade below, but how does the team being displaced get "relegated" in Championship terms? Via league football? If so then the quasi league/champ structure is a total load of ballix notwithstanding the fact there are only 8 clubs competing for the SC being utter ballix in the first place

Templenoe won an AI Junior Club walloping everyone along the way, were playing SL football against Gooch/Dr Crokes but Junior Champ, with 4 Kerry senior players in their team

The county hurlers are hawking for exemption transfers too to keep them buoyant, inglorious hoors love a day out at Croke at any level and at anyones expense

[Rossfan]

Kerry like all Counties structure their club competitions as they see fit and as they feel is best for their Clubs.
The 62 Clubs (c2% of Clubs) who win other Counties Junior and Inter Championships are low on their list of priorities.

[twohands!!!]

Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

The big issue is the fact that so many other counties have bloated uncompetitive senior and intermediate football championships. If you look at the structures in most counties - in most of them the senior competition has the most teams, the intermediate the 2nd most and the junior the fewest. However when you look at pretty much all other sports and competitions, most of them follow a pyramid structure where the elite at the top are the fewest and as you go down the levels with lower standards the numbers increase.

Kerry's structures for clubs are far superior and the fact that pretty much every other county board hasn't tried to copy their structures as closely as possible is a damming indictment of the lack of intelligent thinking by county boards. It's an awful pity the Club Players Association aren't still in existence and didn't campaign for as many counties as possible to adopt structures as close to Kerry's as possible.  If players from intermediate and junior clubs accross the country knew how rubbish the competition structures they have in their counties are compared to how good players in intermediate and junior clubs in Kerry have it, they would be marching on Croke Park demanding immediate change.

Wondering, you can only get promoted to a higher Championship grade in Kerry by winning the Champ at the grade below, but how does the team being displaced get "relegated" in Championship terms? Via league football? If so then the quasi league/champ structure is a total load of ballix notwithstanding the fact there are only 8 clubs competing for the SC being utter ballix in the first place.

Templenoe won an AI Junior Club walloping everyone along the way, were playing SL football against Gooch/Dr Crokes but Junior Champ, with 4 Kerry senior players in their team.

The county hurlers are hawking for exemption transfers too to keep them buoyant, inglorious hoors love a day out at Croke at any level and at anyones expense

My understanding is that there is a club championship and a county championship.

Relegation and promotion are all dealt with in the club championship structure.

The league is completely separate.

From what I know the league is mainly for the club players and there seems to be nowhere near the nonsense/bother that goes on in counties where the league structure is tied to the championship.

Time for Cork football to change its nonsense grading system

Monday 17th January 2022 16:24

JOHN FINTAN DALY

The start of a new season, allied to St Finbarr's wonderful success in Thurles on Sunday, makes it timely to examine the current state of Cork football and to explore how we can improve standards both within the county and at inter-county level - especially how we can compete more effectively with our neighbours in Kerry.

No doubt, the progressive thinking of Cork County Board (in particular, CEO Kevin O'Donovan) in totally rejigging the club grading system for both league and championship has resulted in healthier and more meaningful competitions in both hurling and football.

However, what we continue to ignore are the ongoing pitiful performances of our club representatives in the Munster Junior and Intermediate football championships. While our hurling clubs continue to compete well (Ballygiblin, for example), here are some stark facts that make for shocking reading for our football fraternity: Since Canovee won at the Junior grade in 2007, there have been 15 titles fought for in Munster's Junior and Intermediate. That's 30 championships... all won by Kerry clubs with the exception of two notables in Clyda Rovers (Intermediate, 2013) and my own club, Knocknagree (Junior, 2017), the latter being the only Cork club to beat Kerry opponents in 25 championship meetings during that same period.

Why should that be?

The lazy and uninformed answer would be, of course, that Kerry remains a football powerhouse Cork cannot compete with. In fact, the remedy for this imbalance lies entirely in Cork's own hands. Of the three club football grades in Munster, the only one pitched on a level playing field is clearly Senior. This is simply because the top grade club team from each county are competing against each other.

While the recent domination of Dr Crokes denied Cork clubs much provincial success, the emergence of other champions from Kerry will help level the playing field for Cork in the future.

Beyond senior, the green and gold domination is total and must be tackled urgently. Whereas there are five main adult grades in Cork football, Kerry has four. Therein lies the problem. It is true that Cork has more adult football clubs than the rest of Munster put together, hence more grades. Consequently, Kerry's second-grade champions (Intermediate) play Cork's third grade, known as Premier Intermediate (and not the Senior A second tier). Worse still, Kerry's third grade (Premier junior) play Cork's fifth grade, Junior (and not the third grade, Premier intermediate or even fourth grade, Intermediate).

Cork cannot ignore this ongoing imbalance. While the clubs may only look inward and believe Munster titles are of little relevance to them, they should talk to those few clubs who've tasted Munster/All Ireland success to appreciate the long-term confidence and benefits it brings.

The difficulty is that many Cork clubs don't wish to be regraded and see it as a demotion of their standing. My proposal would first be that Cork approach the GAA to seek its secondary grade champions (currently Senior A) compete in the Munster Intermediate championship and the current fourth grade, Intermediate, be rebranded as Premier Junior and enter the Munster Junior championship.

If we are then directed that the existing rules don't allow for Cork's second grade to enter without rebranding the Senior A championship to, say a new Premier Intermediate grade, then let's do it (how come Kerry Senior hurling champions Kilmoyley were allowed play the Munster Intermediate Hurling Championship).

I say this from a position of my own club being Senior A currently but I would be in favour of doing whatever is necessary for us to meaningfully compete in Munster. If that was to become the case, then a County bye-law could be added to ensure players from that new grade could not qualify to play with their divisions in the Senior Championship.


To illustrate how difficult it is for Cork clubs to overcome Kerry opposition, just look at the relative standings of our Munster representatives in 2021. Newmarket were ranked as the 25th best Cork club team in the order of merit standings (12 in each of the Premier and Senior A grades above them). They got knocked out by Clare's Corofin without even reaching a date with Kerry champions Na Gaeil, who are ranked as the ninth-best club in the Kingdom - with only eight senior clubs above them.

Worse still, County Junior champions, Boherbue, are ranked 53rd in Cork (four grades above them, 52 clubs) while the Kerry opposition who beat them convincingly, Gneeveguilla, are ranked 25th in the Kingdom. Both Na Gaeil and Gneeveguilla went on to comfortably win provincial titles at the weekend.

The only result to buck the trend of the past 13 years was Knocknagree who overcame Dromid Pearses in 2017 even though they were ranked 56th in Cork at the time while Dromid were ranked 25th in Kerry. Any way you look at it, it is up to Cork clubs to change what is a nonsense grading system for the better.

We are currently making great strides with new management at Senior, U20 & Minor intercounty level to emerge from Kerry's shadow and become a football powerhouse in our own right - but that won't happen easily unless the grassroots at club level start winning Munster/All Ireland club titles and, more importantly, expect and demand to do so on a regular basis.

Therein lies the challenge. It is high time the conversation turned to action from within so that we can all look forward to a better future for Cork football. Cork remains, without question, the greatest under-achiever in Gaelic football ... the biggest county with by far the largest number of clubs and playing numbers, not to mention huge untapped resources. Only as a collective can it put an end to the lazy perception that it's 'really only a Hurling county that play a bit of football'.

It's time to change the narrative.

*The author is an All-Ireland winning Junior manager with Knocknagree.

The article above was posted in the Examiner on Monday. John Fintan is a wiley operator but he has to know that there is little chance of their being any change in the names of the structures in Cork any time soon. There was a big restructure only two years ago and the 2nd and 4th tier competitions had to have Senior and Intermediate in their name because if they didn't there was no way the clubs would have accepted the new structures. I'd say the chances of Cork getting any joy from the Munster Council are vanishingly tiny.

[Maroon Manc]

Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

No obvious solution to it though. Issue is replicated right across the country. Although just not to the extreme of the Kerry example. If Dublin renamed their Senior B championship as the Intermediate championship (it is the second tier after all), then we would have seen Cuala in the Leinster Intermediate. And possibly Vincents next year, as they got relegated. But we did see Clara in the Leinster Intermediate final after winning the Offaly Senior B. Zero consistency. But what's the fix?
Counties have to be able to run their championships as they see fit. The inter and junior championships are good competitions, but they are not as important as county championships.

You've surprised me with that remark, I wouldn't agree.

Kerry clubs have won 8 out of the last 12 junior club championship and 4 of those 8 were won by a collective 69 points. Intermediate is not as bad but their still winning about 50% of that championship.

Couldn't be too difficult to implement a Senior B in Kerry with clubs from 9-16.

[rodney trotter]

Dublin clubs done do well at Provincial Junior and Intermediate .More emphasis put into the B Championship with 6 teams in it.  Thought a Leinster and All Ireland Intermediate should be more appealingly then a B Championship

St Vincent's in b next year

[Rossfan]

County Championships are more important than Provincial and All Ireland ones.
All Clubs play in a County Championship, only c.4% of Clubs get to play in the others and half of them only get 1 game.
They're a grand add on bonus for the County winners and give gaelic games a bit of media coverage in the Winter
months.

[Maroon Manc]

County Championships are more important than Provincial and All Ireland ones.
All Clubs play in a County Championship, only c.4% of Clubs get to play in the others and half of them only get 1 game.
They're a grand add on bonus for the County winners and give gaelic games a bit of media coverage in the Winter
months.

Would be interested to see which medal the St Brigid's lads treasured most.

[Rossfan]

They had to win the County one first or they wouldn't have had the chance of the Connacht or AI ones.
I'm talking in the round about the GAA and all 2,500 or so Clubs .

[imtommygunn]

It depends. The likes of cross, kilcoo, nemo etc who win the county almost routinely would cherish an AI more. The clubs that win county infrequently and sometimes only on a one off would value the county one more.

[shark]

Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

No obvious solution to it though. Issue is replicated right across the country. Although just not to the extreme of the Kerry example. If Dublin renamed their Senior B championship as the Intermediate championship (it is the second tier after all), then we would have seen Cuala in the Leinster Intermediate. And possibly Vincents next year, as they got relegated. But we did see Clara in the Leinster Intermediate final after winning the Offaly Senior B. Zero consistency. But what's the fix?
Counties have to be able to run their championships as they see fit. The inter and junior championships are good competitions, but they are not as important as county championships.

You've surprised me with that remark, I wouldn't agree.

Kerry clubs have won 8 out of the last 12 junior club championship and 4 of those 8 were won by a collective 69 points. Intermediate is not as bad but their still winning about 50% of that championship.

Couldn't be too difficult to implement a Senior B in Kerry with clubs from 9-16.

Rossfan articulated one aspect of my reasoning. County championships are the lifeblood of the association. Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new, and while they are good competitions, they are not the aim for any club at the start of the year. The point about Cross, Nemo, etc is not relevant here as we are not talking about Senior. The Senior provincials don't have the fundamental flaw we are talking about here.
When a club wins their county Junior or Intermediate it is huge. They will play a different level the following year. The club's future prospects are now on a different level. A provincial title is a great cherry on top - but will be quickly forgotten if they get relegated the following year. You can trust me on this, as I experienced it!
As I said initially, I don't think there is a fix here. County championships are not going to align with one another, so the provincial inter and junior championships will remain inherently flawed.

[Milltown Row2]

These Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new? Was started in 2004 and the first final was 2005, that's 17 years, If they can't get their shit together in that period then there is something seriously wrong

[shark]

These Inter and Junior provincials are relatively new? Was started in 2004 and the first final was 2005, that's 17 years, If they can't get their shit together in that period then there is something seriously wrong

Provincials actually older again. Maybe late 90's. County championships going a fair bit longer though. Changing county championships to fit provincials would be tail wagging the dog.
It hasn't been fixed as there is no easy fix. And also because there isn't that much appetite clearly.