Time for a post-catholic Ireland

[The Iceman]

In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.

In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.

This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.

People have expressed their delight at church attendance dwindling. Why wouldn't I be concerned? You have expressed your disdain for the church (sorry I'm too lazy to go back and quote exactly). Seems markedly different than what you wrote above..... and how do I keep it private? Never talk about it? No outward signs of faith outside the home or place of worship? Are we allowed a place of worship where it can be seen or should those be underground or out in the woods somewhere? (the last parts are tongue in cheek but you get the sentiment)

[gallsman]

In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.

In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.

This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.

People have expressed their delight at church attendance dwindling. Why wouldn't I be concerned? You have expressed your disdain for the church (sorry I'm too lazy to go back and quote exactly). Seems markedly different than what you wrote above..... and how do I keep it private? Never talk about it? No outward signs of faith outside the home or place of worship? Are we allowed a place of worship where it can be seen or should those be underground or out in the woods somewhere? (the last parts are tongue in cheek but you get the sentiment)

Of course your are. Nobody has said you're not.

What people do want is separation of Church and State, just the 240 odd years after a bunch of old WASPs in America realised it was a good idea.

My complete and utter disdain for the church has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your freedom or ability to practice your religion. Pretending otherwise is nonsense.

[Puckoon]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

I'd take that aggressiveness you're seeing and ask you to consider why you're seeing it? To me it's on a par with the Kaepernick kneeling situation. Some people have absolutely had enough. That's something the church needs to understand - in my opinion.

I don't think the church won't exist, so I don't think I'll have to stand up and fight for it to exist. But it will be rightly separated from state matters.

You asked this question of Gallsman  - What role does religion have in your ideal Ireland?

Religion will exist in my ideal Ireland. But it will exist privately for individuals and it will not control society and life how it formerly did. I'm not out here to tell you or me mam not to be a Catholic. But I'm not out here to have the church shape my life. I would not fight for existence of a church that continues to attempt to dominate the fabric of a society.

[Esmarelda]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

[armaghniac]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

Teachers also show people who to kick balls and sing.

[The Iceman]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?

How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all.  Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.

My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all.  I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did).  Peace to you both

[Syferus]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?

How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all.  Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.

My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all.  I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did).  Peace to you both

Do you not understand the concept of separation between church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?

[Ball Hopper]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?

How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all.  Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.

My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all.  I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did).  Peace to you both

Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?

[Therealdonald]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?

How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all.  Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.

My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all.  I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did).  Peace to you both

Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?

I can't ever imagine this happening. Unlike the will of the people regards to Abortion or same sex marriage, its the uncertainty of death that will keep Religion relevant and I for one welcome this and I hope it remains the same.

[armaghniac]

Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?

I do not understand  the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, I have to say.
No doubt some cross-fertilisation is involved.

[Puckoon]

^^^ That's how I see it. Not taking sides either but if you've to say for better or for worse - my money is on better.

[Syferus]

I know exactly one person my age that is religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

[sid waddell]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.

Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".

I gather you live in the US.

Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.

Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.

Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.

Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.

The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this

Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform

The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.

Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.

Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously

Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?

Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders

The rest of these I find hilarious:

Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?

I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.

I didn't specify the Roman Catholic Church. I specified "religion".

US politics is divided along cultural lines. People who self-identify as "Christians" overwhelmingly vote Republican.

"Christian politics" encompasses all the issues I mention.

White evangelicals are a massive driver of racism in the US. That ties into their opposition to immigration and support for plainly abhorrent Republican positions in general. Conservative Roman Catholics in the US tend to be pretty similar in their outlook to evangelicals, as Iceman has proved.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south

The Iraq War, the starting point of the utter chaos that has engulfed the Middle East since 2003, was "a mission from God", according to the man who decided to start it.

Those who supported slavery invoked their "God-given" rights.

The creation of Israel as a country, and support for it elsewhere, particularly when it comes to murder and grave human rights abuses, is driven by religious fantaticism, both among Jews and Christians who are obsessed with a 2,000 year old fantasy.

You can justify anything with religion, really, which just goes to demonstrate that it should have no place whatsoever in public life.

[Therealdonald]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.

Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.

[Syferus]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.

Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.

It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.