United Ireland, what would you give up or not give up if it where a reality?

[delboy]

This is precisely the type of half baked economic analysis found in these threads. Unification is a long term project, with a long term horizon, as such things this year are not that different from 2 years ago. It is not as if the UK doesn't have a debt problem. The overall economic condition of the country is a valid point of discussion but people always harp on about small points. The only substantial point here is the price of some things, something which is changed. The point is that this is not in the interest of people in the South either so it is not as if this is going to be sticking point in negotiations. Detail about doctors etc is entirely a matter of policy, this can be changed if people want it or the 6 counties can continue to have different arrangements just as Scotland does.

I agree it is a long term thing and thats one of the reasons i'd be in no hurry to leave the economic sanctum of the UK for a UI.
Looking at the irish economy from a long term perspective and not just the recent 'economic miracle' 1995-2007 (people have short memories) Ireland has historically been one of the poorest countries in europe.
The UK though being the 6th biggest economy in the world is much better placed to weather economic storms.

Add into that Irelands huge reliance on the importation of ever increasingly expensive fossil fuels, high wages and out-sourcing to more competetive countries and its hard to see the halycon days returning.   

[SuperMac]

I cann't stand the " We cann't afford it brigade ". Now I know feck all about economincs etc, but from the top of me head. Well ,as some has said, unification is a long term project, it's not like east and west Germany where the Berlin Wall fell in a few months and west Germany were basically thrown East Germany. And also, the anti nationalists are always bring up the east and west Germany comparision, a comparision that is completly inaccurate. The differences between the north and south are only minor compared to east and west Germany, the health service, VRT, the price of petrol etc. West Germany inheritied an economy that was under the mad policy's of communism and Stalinism and a world war before that. The area that was East Germay before 1939 was probably more productive in 1939 than in 1989 FFS !!!!!

If we were to take the 6 counties, we'd be paying something like 2,000 euros per citizen down south so I'm told if we took it over tomorrow ( rememebr I said, unification should be a long term project of streamlining the 2 economies ). NAMA, ( which people have rightfully serious questions and objections about ) is supposed to be costing us 15,000 per citizen !!!!!

Doubtless though, the very same ones who will say NAMA well we have to give it a go, are teh same ones who baulk at going through the process of a United Ireland. 

[SuperMac]

This is precisely the type of half baked economic analysis found in these threads. Unification is a long term project, with a long term horizon, as such things this year are not that different from 2 years ago. It is not as if the UK doesn't have a debt problem. The overall economic condition of the country is a valid point of discussion but people always harp on about small points. The only substantial point here is the price of some things, something which is changed. The point is that this is not in the interest of people in the South either so it is not as if this is going to be sticking point in negotiations. Detail about doctors etc is entirely a matter of policy, this can be changed if people want it or the 6 counties can continue to have different arrangements just as Scotland does.

I agree it is a long term thing and thats one of the reasons i'd be in no hurry to leave the economic sanctum of the UK for a UI.
Looking at the irish economy from a long term perspective and not just the recent 'economic miracle' 1995-2007 (people have short memories) Ireland has historically been one of the poorest countries in europe.
The UK though being the 6th biggest economy in the world is much better placed to weather economic storms.

Add into that Irelands huge reliance on the importation of ever increasingly expensive fossil fuels, high wages and out-sourcing to more competetive countries and its hard to see the halycon days returning.

importation of ever increasingly expensive fossil fuels,

Britian is running out of Scottish oil. Coal is dead.

high wages and out-sourcing to more competetive countries 

And waht do you think is happening to britian ??

[delboy]

Britian is running out of Scottish oil. Coal is dead.

high wages and out-sourcing to more competetive countries  And waht do you think is happening to britian ??

Its got a way to go yet, should let the UK get their energy security sorted, eg recent gas line from norway etc.
Coal is dead!!, somebody needs to tell the chinese and the yanks they are building coal stations like nobodies business.

Yes the UK like every other country is having to face these problems but you have to ask yourself do yo you want to meet those challenges as part of a country with the six largest economy in the world or as one on a par with thailand, but with wages well above the EU average.

[Gold]

how shit is it being ruled by another land, i cant accept that shit. are we unable to look after oursellves, make our own laws etc?

if there was a united ireland in the morning, do you not think the Ulster Scots up north would go mad and start bombing and killing and an all out war in the morning?

[armaghniac]

but you have to ask yourself do yo you want to meet those challenges as part of a country with the six largest economy in the world or as one on a par with thailand, but with wages well above the EU average.

Size of economy is neither here nor there. I'd rather be in Switzerland than India.
I never cease to be amazed at how unionists have no shame in putting forward the idea that NI is an economic basket case that can only continue if there are a large number of taxpayers to support it. This dole mentality is a sure sign that the place is a failure.

[mylestheslasher]

'So if there was a referendum in the morning you'd vote no to reuniting Ireland? In answer to the thread title there is pretty much nothing I wouldn't give to reunite this country. To give a simple answer to why, it is simply a matter of righting wrongs and finishing the work of the thousands that died for this country to be free from the meddling of a foreign country. I will add that I want our unionist/protestant people to be apart of this country and to be happy to be in it. I don't mind their orange marches as long as they are not intentionally confrontational, I would change the national anthem if they wanted (as it is a 26 county anthem), I would consider changing our flag even though it is a perfect flag of peace between two religions. There are some things that transend personal wealth like righting 800 years of being occupied or partially occupied. To be honest, I am disgusted that any irishman would talk about the "cost" of reunification as being a reason to be against it.'

The orange marches are the least of your worries. Most of the Ulster British I know - in laws included - aren't involved in the orange order, have little time for it, and indeed find the whole business of the 12th pretty tasteless. Their sense of being British and a part of the UK is a much bigger deal for them than a few band parades. The challenge for both nationalists and unionists is to come up with an arrangement that recognises the Britishness of 20% of the citizenry, while at the same time being Irish enough to satisfy the majority.

And do you find it an impossible task to do that. First up there will come a time when they will have no choice but to be part of a united Ireland, when that dawns on unionists they will be best to make a deal earlier and get some concessions. Secondly, there has been precedent in this country previously in 1798 protestants led the way to break from England and many paid with their lives, Emmetts rebelion likewise. Even the IRB of the late 19th century had a decent amount of protestants in their ranks in Ulster. I will always argue that the unionist politician with the help of manipulating english parties were responsible more than anyone of dividing our people for their own selfish gain. The final example is after partition, the were 1000's of protestant unionists on the south of the border, many with family left on the north and they got on with life just fine and still do. Its not mission impossible myles, its mission inevitable.

[Myles Na G.]

And do you find it an impossible task to do that. First up there will come a time when they will have no choice but to be part of a united Ireland, when that dawns on unionists they will be best to make a deal earlier and get some concessions. Secondly, there has been precedent in this country previously in 1798 protestants led the way to break from England and many paid with their lives, Emmetts rebelion likewise. Even the IRB of the late 19th century had a decent amount of protestants in their ranks in Ulster. I will always argue that the unionist politician with the help of manipulating english parties were responsible more than anyone of dividing our people for their own selfish gain. The final example is after partition, the were 1000's of protestant unionists on the south of the border, many with family left on the north and they got on with life just fine and still do. Its not mission impossible myles, its mission inevitable.
Never said it was mission impossible, though it's definitely mission very difficult. I am a bit concerned, however, when I hear people on here talking about the inevitability of majority rule taking us into a united Ireland. If we've learned anything from the last 90 years, surely, it's that simple majority rule doesn't work. It didn't work in the six counties with a reluctant nationalist population, so why would it work in a 32 county state with an even larger unionist population? Consent is the key. Unless a significant number of the Ulster British can be convinced that a united Ireland is worth trying, it's a non starter.

[carribbear]

Unless a significant number of the Ulster British can be convinced that a united Ireland is worth trying, it's a non starter.

We can start with you first and see if your pals follow

[lynchbhoy]

Unless a significant number of the Ulster British can be convinced that a united Ireland is worth trying, it's a non starter.

when the majority swings, the English gov will start to put their energy into how to get rid of the six counties back to the rest of Ireland.
They will put it in such a way that the inhabitants of the north will not have a choice.
things like moving various civil service departments out of the north so people will have to either move with them over to England or remain in the six counties as unemployed.
Various social and financial little tricks like that (lets face it we all know about how good the british gov can be with their dirty tricks!).

So while people think that things wont move, the choice may not be fully theirs, it may be made for them.
The stick will be applied to the north of Ireland inhabitants, the carrot (financial) will be given to the Irish peoples.
I'd be wary and worried of what smart manouvering the british gov will pull and put on the lazy Irish Gov and leave the country in a shambles. I'd be very worried that we would have reunification landed upon us way too soon.

thought you were telling all of us before myles that you were a 'nationalist' ! !

[botman]

Can we give them Dublin, Carlow and Kildare and throw in Limerick as well. We could get the highlands of Scotland. Much nicer.

BTW I don't think I could afford to live in a United Ireland with a bundle of incompetent morons for a government. All far too busy getting brown envelopes.

[delboy]

but you have to ask yourself do yo you want to meet those challenges as part of a country with the six largest economy in the world or as one on a par with thailand, but with wages well above the EU average.

Size of economy is neither here nor there. I'd rather be in Switzerland than India.
I never cease to be amazed at how unionists have no shame in putting forward the idea that NI is an economic basket case that can only continue if there are a large number of taxpayers to support it. This dole mentality is a sure sign that the place is a failure.

That point would only make sense if the standard of living in the UK was comparable to india and that of ireland to switzerland, it isn't so its nonsensical.

I quoted the size of the economies not as some sort of one-up-manship but to illustrate that larger economies are best placed to weather the storm, especially when you take into account the 'too big to fail factor'.

The repercusions of the worlds 6th largest economy being allowed to fail would be hugely damaging to the global finicial system.
The failure of a small economy on a par with thailand would not have the same ramifications, its a simple matter of maths, and not some playground my country is better than yours point scoring exercise.

As for the dole mentality comment, lets take a look at that, for the peroid april to june 2009 the unemployment figure for NI was estimated at 6.7 %, compare that to the rate in the republic as of May 2009 which was 11.7 %.
Tell me again who has the dole culture??? Which country has a long standing history of mass emigration for economic reasons (forget about the bubble), a sign if ever there was one of a failing entity.
Physcian heal thyself 

[man in black]

What would happen in the border areas for example south armagh. Id safely say some of these bar stool republicans would shite themselves if the border was removed, no means of paying for the big houses and fancy motors then.

[armaghniac]

That point would only make sense if the standard of living in the UK was comparable to india and that of ireland to switzerland, it isn't so its nonsensical.

Switzerland, along with Luxembourg , Norway, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden have a higher standard of living than the UK. Size isn't everything, you know.

I quoted the size of the economies not as some sort of one-up-manship but to illustrate that larger economies are best placed to weather the storm, especially when you take into account the 'too big to fail factor'.

Indeed they print money and devalue their currency and spread the decline over a longer period.

As for the dole mentality comment, lets take a look at that, for the peroid april to june 2009 the unemployment figure for NI was estimated at 6.7 %, compare that to the rate in the republic as of May 2009 which was 11.7 %.

Many of the people in jobs in NI are on handouts from the British government. Handouts which will be reduced in the near future as the UK national debt reaches high levels.

Tell me again who has the dole culture??? Which country has a long standing history of mass emigration for economic reasons (forget about the bubble), a sign if ever there was one of a failing entity.

Whatever the current difficulties in the ROI, which are severe and which threaten to reduce living standards to UK levels, there is no doubt that the ROI brought itself into a similar standard of living to other European countries. The present problems were not needed, but at least there is some appreciation that something has to be done, unlike the North where it is business (or lack of it) as usual.

[delboy]

That point would only make sense if the standard of living in the UK was comparable to india and that of ireland to switzerland, it isn't so its nonsensical.

1)   Switzerland, along with Luxembourg , Norway, Netherlands, Austria, Denmark and Sweden have a higher standard of living than the UK. Size isn't everything, you know.

I quoted the size of the economies not as some sort of one-up-manship but to illustrate that larger economies are best placed to weather the storm, especially when you take into account the 'too big to fail factor'.

2)   Indeed they print money and devalue their currency and spread the decline over a longer period.

3)   As for the dole mentality comment, lets take a look at that, for the peroid april to june 2009 the unemployment figure for NI was estimated at 6.7 %, compare that to the rate in the republic as of May 2009 which was 11.7 %.

Many of the people in jobs in NI are on handouts from the British government. Handouts which will be reduced in the near future as the UK national debt reaches high levels.

Tell me again who has the dole culture??? Which country has a long standing history of mass emigration for economic reasons (forget about the bubble), a sign if ever there was one of a failing entity.

4)   Whatever the current difficulties in the ROI, which are severe and which threaten to reduce living standards to UK levels, there is no doubt that the ROI brought itself into a similar standard of living to other European countries. The present problems were not needed, but at least there is some appreciation that something has to be done, unlike the North where it is business (or lack of it) as usual.

1)   Do you think this backs up your previous example that alludes to the irish and UK economies being comparable with Switzerland and India respectively? This thread is about what you would and wouldn't want to give up, I wouldn't want to leave the 6th largest economy for the 34th, because i believe being part of a larger economy has benefits, thats my opinion.

2)   A perfect example of the advantages of being a larger economy ie you can manipulate your own currency to suit your own needs and not what suits the germans/French, also being a large economy gives you greater latitude on other factors such as credit ratings etc 'too big to fail'.

3)   Pot and kettle, you may be right in your assertion that budgets will fall, but is the same thing not also happening in the south. I can't imagine should NI throw its lot in with the south that funding would increase or even remain comparable, i think there would be massive cuts.

4)   Nothing to do with the 60 billion euros the EU gave to Ireland of course, that seems a tad ungrateful i must say.

At the end of the day (IMO)as a NI resident i see no economic argument for leaving the UK.