11-Plus Proposal

[balladmaker]

There has to be streaming of some sort.  Makes no sense to have not just many different stages of progression within the same class, but also some in the class who don't want to be there.  I feel sorry for kids who, irrespective of ability, want to learn and progress themselves, however, when there is an element who are not interested in even being there never mind learning, that makes it difficult for all.  Like it or not, at least the streaming removed that from the equation.

[Milltown Row2]

I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?

I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already

You can still pay into a Grammar though?

Well as far as I'm aware the prep schools are still about, though to get into any grammar you have to pass the test.

[FermGael]

Grammar schools are not the problem -  a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.

Are you comparing grammar schools results to schools in the English comprehension system?
That would be a very unfair comparison.
The only thing you can compare grammar school results is to other grammar schools in England.

[FermGael]

There has to be streaming of some sort.  Makes no sense to have not just many different stages of progression within the same class, but also some in the class who don't want to be there.  I feel sorry for kids who, irrespective of ability, want to learn and progress themselves, however, when there is an element who are not interested in even being there never mind learning, that makes it difficult for all.  Like it or not, at least the streaming removed that from the equation.

Streaming exists in nearly every school.  Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation.  That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.

[JimStynes]

I've 3 ability groups in my class. I put 3 different levels of work up for maths and English each day on Google Classroom. It's pretty straight forward and easy to be honest. My last school was very difficult however.  I could have had anything from 3 to 8 different ability groups. Totally unrealistic to try and achieve the correct differentiation each day for that class. I had children scoring 130+ in PIE and PIM, to children working at P2 level and then 4/5 children not able to speak one word of English. I had 1 classroom assistant there for a few hours each day to look after a boy with behavioural needs. I often wondered what that extra money for EAL children was used for, because it certainly wasn't used to withdraw children from my room to teach them English! In my opinion for the likes of that school it maybe would have been better to stream the 3 P7 classes. It would be some row with the parents though!

[RadioGAAGAA]

Grammar schools are not the problem -  a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.

Are you comparing grammar schools results to schools in the English comprehension system?
That would be a very unfair comparison.
The only thing you can compare grammar school results is to other grammar schools in England.

No, I'm comparing NI results as a whole (which includes grammars) to results in England (which is mainly comprehensive).

[RadioGAAGAA]

Streaming exists in nearly every school.  Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation.  That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.

There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.


I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.

Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.

[Milltown Row2]

Streaming exists in nearly every school.  Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation.  That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.

There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.


I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.

Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.

That's a great solution, I would have done better had such an approach been taken. Edit: probably pushing it with that statement 

[JimStynes]

That's basically the Dickson plan that existed in Lurgan for many years.

[RadioGAAGAA]

Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

[FermGael]

Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo

[FermGael]

Streaming exists in nearly every school.  Streaming does not remove pupils who don't want to learn or who don't want to be there from the equation.  That's a totally different issue.
The evidence suggests that setting and streaming has a very small negative impact for low and mid-range attaining learners, and a very small positive impact for higher attaining pupils.

There is much stronger evidence that shows streaming (i.e. selection) between schools delivers better results.


I think I've said on here before what my approach would be, but I suppose its worth repeating it.

Primary school P1 to P6.
Middle school: P7 to end of KS3. No selection for intake, streaming within. Effectively comprehensive.
(i) High school: GCSE & A-level & (ii) Vocational colleges: Some GCSEs that can run with vocational courses.

Can you point me in the direction of this stronger evidence ?
Would love to have a good read of it.
Most of the "strong" evidence I have read is usually produced by some organisation with a vested interest .

I will not argue with the fact that streaming seems to do well for the very brightest. It's just the other 95% that it does not seem to work out for.

As for comparing results with England you are correct to a point .
The top do better. But that shouldn't be a surprise.
But we have more pupils leave here with 5 or fewer GCSE'S compared to the English system . 

[omaghjoe]

Key difference is that kids are not forced to do KS4, or at least, in its current guise.

For example, what is the point in trying to teach someone differentiation when they'll obviously never use it?


Basic English & Maths - applied where possible - within vocational courses is a much better fit.

Most people who are taught differentiation will never use it imo

What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?

[FermGael]

What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?

Free childcare

[Milltown Row2]

What is the point of education? Is it only ever to use something in a vocational setting?

Free childcare

Kids get very bored, fairly quickly if they can't understand the work or it's not difficult. Streaming of some sort happens in every secondary school.

Teachers don't have the time in their timetable to teach the way they would like, subjects have a timeline before moving on to the next topic. Catch up can be done during revision classes but it's not always that easy.

It's also not fair to put a pupil in a class that they'll struggle in, they won't progress, if they are in a smaller class then the teacher has the ability to work the class better, smaller class size would produce better results.