11-Plus Proposal

Started by spiritof91and94, May 16, 2008, 12:58:46 PM

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Square Ball

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 01, 2020, 10:44:03 AM
Quote from: tintin25 on June 01, 2020, 10:40:57 AM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on June 01, 2020, 10:19:31 AM
Jeez I remember in my primnary school class we had a list of everyones names on the wall 1-25 of smartest to not so smart! Try that one now!

Had the same thing at Grammar school for the first 3 years

We had 3 rows from P 5 onwards....based on your summer exam results from the previous year.  That's right we did Christmas and Summer tests and had a proper report book etc. The ones in row 3 also went to the Remedial Reading and Maths Class. Imagine that nowadays and being called that!
So did we, with the top group getting more help with the 11 plus than the others. Had the remedial class, was also referred to as the special class
Hospitals are not equipped to treat stupid

Taylor

Not sure what the names of those classes are now.

Would expect to see solicitor letters being sent if 'our wee Johnny' doesnt get in to the school of his choice next year

Milltown Row2

If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!

And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

nrico2006

What happens now if you are looking to go to a grammar school with no family ties or other children in the school?  No point in applying?
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

Jim Bob

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 01, 2020, 12:52:28 PM
If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!

And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.

It is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 01, 2020, 12:52:28 PM
If parents send their child to a school that is educationally above their child's standard, they need a kicking!

And if a parent doesn't know the standard of their child's ability then they haven't taken any interest in their child's work.

It is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens

That could be 30 different lesson plans for 30 different level of kids in one class.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens

Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.

In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.

Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.


You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?
i usse an speelchekor

dec

There needs to be streaming at some point. It dos not make sense to have one group in a class learning calculus while others are still trying to master algebra. However a system that dictates your next 7 years of education based on a single day of tests is nuts.

It is a complicated problem that can't be solved by simply getting rid of the test. The current system is mostly built around the transfer test and the Protestant/Catholic school divide so ending up in with a system where everyone can go to your local school and be able to progress at an appropriate speed will be extremely difficult.

JimStynes

The ability gaps widen as they get older. It wouldn't make sense to try follow the primary school model to 14/15 year olds. The differences in ability would be massive. The Dixon plan in Lurgan was the perfect way of doing things in my opinion and now they've removed that to create St. Ronan's. Any of my friends who teach there say it is a disaster so far. The new principal has some job on her hands.

Jim Bob

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 01, 2020, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens

Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.

In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.

Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.


You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?

Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary  school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary  schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach. 

Milltown Row2

Quote from: Jim Bob on June 02, 2020, 12:11:41 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on June 01, 2020, 04:33:21 PM
Quote from: Jim Bob on June 01, 2020, 04:19:16 PMIt is the duty of any teacher to plan their lessons to match the abilities of all the pupils in their class. It's done in primary school. Can't see any reason why it shouldn't be done in any second level school. Any child should be made to fit in any school. Up to the teaching staff and management to ensure that happens

Jim. Climb down off your pedestal and have a look around the big real world.

In a globalised economy you don't hold back your best kids' education for the sake of some unachievable utopia. The ability gap in most grammar school classes is already wide enough currently.

Yeah, the 11+ isn't a great solution to the problem, but the best solution is likely to take far more upheaval than the education system would stomach. The 11+ is significantly better than the comprehensive route, which has been shown over a very long time period to be consistently worse than streaming by ability to separate schools.


You might have to do lesson planning for 3 streams for your day, with what, a maths/english in morning and topical in evening...? Now what if you were teaching 5 different year groups in that day? That's 15 different subsets of lessons you need. How do you coordinate that with colleagues teaching across the year group(s)?

Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary  school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary  schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach.

We've a very good educational system, comprehensive schools still stream as do secondary schools, I went to a secondary school, it was streamed.
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

FermGael

I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?
Wanted.  Forwards to take frees.
Not fussy.  Any sort of ability will be considered

Milltown Row2

Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?

I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Jeepers Creepers

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 02, 2020, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: FermGael on June 02, 2020, 12:15:14 PM
I wonder, if the 11 plus was scrapped , would the demand for grammar education lead some of the grammar schools to head down the fee paying route ? Would there be the parental demand for that ?

I'd say there would be, plenty money out there. Some private funding schools already

You can still pay into a Grammar though?

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: Jim Bob on June 02, 2020, 12:11:41 AM
Academic selection has always been part of the education system here unfortunately. There has been no serious attempt to try to work without it as there is no incentive for the grammars to do so. Just get the best academically into the school and let the secondary  school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically and those with difficult backgrounds etc.
You talk about having 5 different groups each day. Primary  schools face that every day with up to 5 groups to deal with in every subject they teach.

Realistically, you don't have 5 streams per subject. Or if you do, the last are those with dedicated TAs.

Anyway, the major problem I have with your post is - "let the secondary  school do the heavy lifting with the poorer academically".


As usual, all a teacher can think of is "academically". There is a point below which its a waste of time trying to teach academical matters - those kids are better off served with vocational learning. They'll be more interested and it'll be far more useful to them in the long run.

Grammar schools are not the problem -  a simple comparison of results from NI to those in the English comprehension system proves that. A lack of vocational courses for KS4 is the problem. Its all GCSE or nothing.


What is the point of Jimmy trying to learn f**king Shakespeare when he has no interest in it and wants to be a mechanic? Even in subjects that would be useful, like maths or physics, he doesn't grasp their application in the real world so switches off. Whereas, if he was doing a vocational course in motor mechanics, he'd learn about torques, clearances & tolerances, pressures, voltages, currents & resistances etc etc - by seeing their relevance to what he wants to do - there is a real interest there in understanding.
i usse an speelchekor