11-Plus Proposal

[Milltown Row2]

It has never been as unfair as it is now.  Some schools give test papers every day where as others stick to the rules and only give out 1 or 2 past papers.  It's then up to the parents, the parents with the most money who can afford the best tutors.  Even if you hear about a good tutor they are booked up years in advance.

I happened to be in the kitchen of a house last year and the persons daughter had a tutor in.  I heard the tutor read out a multiple choice question, something like what is 40% of 2000.  The wee girl looked up at the tutor and said 600 and the tutor nodded her head.  800?  Very good, next question...

I felt like saying to the girls mum are you actually paying someone 25 pounds an hour for that.  How does someone qualify to become a tutor if that is the standard of some of the teaching.

Again that's one tutor you've heard! My wife has been tutoring 11 plus to kids for 20 odd years!! Hasn't in last couple of years as it was mainly to friends and families kids, there are as many without the funds finding money to pay for their kids future..

Parents know which schools encourage 11 plus and which schools don't... As others have said kids that really had to work hard at getting into the better schools stay the course and are able to apply themselves ... Kids that get tutored to death just to pass are more likely to fall down ... But there are (from what can see) two things, parents read or check schools for their GCSE and A level results as a barometer for successful school, and some parents fear sending their precious kids to a rough school...

I've come through secondary education and it worked for me, my wife went the other route and it's worked for her... So I'm completely on the fence on this one. To a point, I wasn't too fussed on sending my girls to the local secondary school, but I'd needed have worried as they have their mins brains !! While my son went to the local secondary school hand has done very well for himself..

[Gaffer]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

What age is acceptable to get tutored at??

I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.

It is up to the teachers of any pupil to set work to suit the ability of that child. its called differentiating the work in the lesson so that all pupils will be able to progress in line with their ability.

[cornerback]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

[tbrick18]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

I'm doing it for the 3rd time in 4 years. The novelty wears off.
In the past I would have agreed with you about the tutoring, however, I've changed my mind on the issue.
Mrs. tbrick18 is a teacher and actually tutors kids, mostly with special ed needs. Though she does occasionally do transfer work for friends.
We would always work with our kids for homework etc, and followed that through with the transfer. What we found with the transfer work was that the child would lose focus and be more likely to not bother if we were helping. Whereas with a tutor, the child isn't as familiar with them and so works in a more focused fashion.
Whilst I don't agree with tutoring a child for a transfer test that they realistically couldn't pass normally, I think tutoring the more able kids on things like exam technique is definitely helpful.
Where we live, there is one school in particular that if a child wants to attend they must do the transfer, and probably need not only an A, but a high scored A as the criteria uses the scores instead of the grades. The little bit of tutoring could be the difference in getting a place.
Personally, I put no pressure on my kids to do the transfer or choose a specific school. I let them make the decision themselves and so far, they have all chosen to do it. The local comprehensive school seems to be a very good school too and I'd have no issue with my kids going there.
I know for some parents it's life or death getting into a grammar school, personally I think a lot of that is about keeping up appearances and can be very unfair on the child.

[oakleaflad]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?

[johnnycool]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?

Yeah, a lot of these open days are geared to P6's as well as P7's.

[cornerback]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

I'm doing it for the 3rd time in 4 years. The novelty wears off.
In the past I would have agreed with you about the tutoring, however, I've changed my mind on the issue.
Mrs. tbrick18 is a teacher and actually tutors kids, mostly with special ed needs. Though she does occasionally do transfer work for friends.
We would always work with our kids for homework etc, and followed that through with the transfer. What we found with the transfer work was that the child would lose focus and be more likely to not bother if we were helping. Whereas with a tutor, the child isn't as familiar with them and so works in a more focused fashion.
Whilst I don't agree with tutoring a child for a transfer test that they realistically couldn't pass normally, I think tutoring the more able kids on things like exam technique is definitely helpful.
Where we live, there is one school in particular that if a child wants to attend they must do the transfer, and probably need not only an A, but a high scored A as the criteria uses the scores instead of the grades. The little bit of tutoring could be the difference in getting a place.
Personally, I put no pressure on my kids to do the transfer or choose a specific school. I let them make the decision themselves and so far, they have all chosen to do it. The local comprehensive school seems to be a very good school too and I'd have no issue with my kids going there.
I know for some parents it's life or death getting into a grammar school, personally I think a lot of that is about keeping up appearances and can be very unfair on the child.

I know what you're saying regarding the exam technique but from talking the primary school teachers I think that is a part of their focus in the preparation.  If I feel that is an area that needs additional work i'm in the fortunate position to call upon 5 close relations that are teachers (mix of primary & secondary).
I would be more than happy for my children to attend any of the 3 local schools that we've visited and i'm certainly not pushing them in any direction.  If I was nudging in a particular direction it wouldn't be for the first choice 

[cornerback]

Anyone else trudging around the local secondary schools open days/evenings for the P6 & P7 kids?

My eldest is in P6 and after tonight will have visited 3 of the local schools; unless something changes tonight, it looks like the local grammar will be top of the list.  It was always the intention to do the transfer test anyway - or at least prepare in for the transfer test & see how it goes.
Absolutely no intention of using a tutor but there seems to be a lot of parents going down that route.

Do the children go to open days at both P6 and P7 nowadays? My children aren't that age yet but do people really get a feel for the school based off of the one-off visits as opposed to the general perception of the school?

Both year groups would be encouraged to go but its not vital either.

The children are going to be more influenced by the one-off visits and the schools definitely put their best foot forward in order to exert that influence but, as parents you'll be influenced by much more.  I would regard Ballinascreen to be in the fortunate position of falling under the catchment area of a number of good schools and whatever one my children would like to attend there isn't much (or any) negativity with whatever they choose.  I would say my attitude would be different if there was a particularly poor school on the list.

[JimStynes]

Not a fan of the transfer at all! It's serious pressure on a child at that age and it's not necessarily pressure from the parents or teachers. The pupils themselves will be talking about it and what school they're going to go to etc. The border line or less able pupils will be the ones listening to all their friends celebrating their 'A' on the Monday morning. It's not nice at all!

The big problem I have is that the subjects that are on the transfer aren't covered until later on in Primary 7 but the test is in early November! Schools then need to try and squeeze all the topics into the primary 6 year. It's nearly a necessity for the children to get tutored for the test to ensure they've covered everything and also learned good test technique.

[delgany]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

[ONeill]

Absolutely crazy that anyone gets a 10/11-year old tutored.

[Tony Baloney]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.

[delgany]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.

I ve heard  if a few garage conversions to classrooms !

I  also know if a science teacher tutoring children from their science in school .

I also came across a tutor , "teaching" a 11+ child at the same time as a gcse pupil !  Explain that one .

Parents are really to blame! 

[JimStynes]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through?  It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.

[tbrick18]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

I'm not promoting the transfer test for a second, but there are many reasons why kids need tutoring and It sounds like you have a bit of a bee in your bonnet against teachers who do it.

Some kids absolutely need an extra push outside of school for a variety of reasons. For example, special Ed needs kids. Some parents don't have the ability to help their kids and without tutoring that child is at a disadvantage to kids who do have parental support.
The hard work at school comment only holds true if all teachers and schools prepare the kids in the same way and the teachers are of a similar standard. From experience I know this isn't the case.
But the single biggest thing your are missing the point on, even though in principal I see what you are saying, is that if any kids get tutored it moves the goalposts for all kids. So tutoring becomes a must.
I haven't heard of any of these 35/hr sessions with loads of kids or even 1-2-1 at that price for transfer. It may well happen though as some will always take advantage.

The issue isn't with tutori g, the issue is with the system and with grammar schools holding too much power.