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We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Author Topic: Clerical abuse!  (Read 199187 times)

D4S

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Clerical abuse!
« on: May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM »
It seems the first thread on this topic has been deleted! WHY?

It is absolutely disgusting the way the catholic church dealt with this unbelievable sickening crime!  They moved priests onto another parish, another small village, or into schools away from parishes (jackpot for the paedos), to continue their brutality.  It makes me sick to the stomach to think the people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulators not knowing what was happening, while bishops stood by and watched.  Some priests still have the audacity to lecture on their pulpits about 'living in sin', 'sex before marriage', children out of wedlock'.  Is it any wonder society is the way it is today, attendances at Mass are so low, and enrolment at Maynooth is virtually non-existent when we were all conned by those who were meant to be trusted.  I know it is not all priests but the number of cases which have come to light have been enormous it seems over the last 10 years.

I hope that any of those who suffered can get some small peace of mind knowing that the catholic church has been outed by todays report proving what we already knew.
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Donagh

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2009, 05:12:56 PM »
It seems the first thread on this topic has been deleted! WHY?

It is absolutely disgusting the way the catholic church dealt with this unbelievable sickening crime!  They moved priests onto another parish, another small village, or into schools away from parishes (jackpot for the paedos), to continue their brutality.  It makes me sick to the stomach to think the  people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulatorsnot knowing what was happening, while bishops stood by and watched.  Some priests still have the audacity to lecture on their pulpits about 'living in sin', 'sex before marriage', children out of wedlock'.  Is it any wonder society is the way it is today, attendances at Mass are so low, and enrolment at Maynooth is virtually non-existent when we were all conned by those who were meant to be trusted.  I know it is not all priests but the number of cases which have come to light have been enormous it seems over the last 10 years.

I hope that any of those who suffered can get some small peace of mind knowing that the catholic church has been outed by todays report proving what we already knew.

That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.
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D4S

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2009, 05:15:59 PM »
Donagh I'm referring to the regular parishioner + parents of children who were abused in that statement.  Although I know todays report is largely on the institutions.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:19:33 PM by D4S »
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longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 05:19:45 PM »
There were cruel b*****ds with dog collars in Catholic Schools in the 70s and parents knew. Some of the sadists have passed to their eternal reward  ::) and had cups and awards named after them.   

stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2009, 05:24:26 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

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Square Ball

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2009, 05:26:55 PM »
Just listened to a fella from Limerick who was put into an industrial school at three, re recalled the sexual, physical and psychological absuse he and others suffered at the hands of some of the brothers at the school. he stated that the night watchman reported this to the school, the church and the state, giving names of the brothers who were doing this and nothing happened.

It was a terrible story to listen to and no doubt one that happened to many and innocent person over many years, a terrible terrible thing indeed
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D4S

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2009, 05:33:57 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



I agree 100% Stew.  Got married last year and my new parish priest who married us is a very good man.
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GalwayBayBoy

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2009, 05:38:00 PM »
A nine-year investigation has found Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style children's institutions in the Irish Republic. Government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation.

High court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that unmarried mothers were often lumped into – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

The Catholic church had been steeling itself for the report, which was repeatedly delayed by church lawsuits, missing documentation and alleged government obstruction.

The church had already been under fire over the sexual misbehaviour of several priests in various Irish parishes. The commission's experts have sought to produce a comprehensive portrait of sexual, physical and emotional damage inflicted on the child victims. The thousands of survivors said they had no safe way to tell their stories until the investigation began because much of Irish Catholic society sought to label them as liars.

Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, today said it was now up to the Vatican to investigate its religious orders in the republic.

John Kelly, the Isoca coordinator in Dublin, said: "Now that the Ryan [Laffoy] commission is finished, we call upon ... Pope Benedict XVI to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of the Catholic religious orders in Ireland.

"Amongst other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer."

During the commission's investigations, oral evidence was collected from more than 1,000 people, mainly aged from their 50s to 70s.

Several hundred travelled back to Ireland from the US and Australia to describe their childhood of terror and intimidation.

The Christian Brothers delayed the investigation for more than a year with a lawsuit that successfully defended their members' right to anonymity in all references in the report, even in cases in which individual Christian Brothers had already been convicted of sexual and physical attacks on children.

The commission's original judge, Mary Laffoy, resigned from her post in 2003 over claims that the Irish department of education – which was in charge of inspecting the orphanages and industrial schools – was refusing to hand over documents to her.

longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2009, 05:40:31 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?

red hander

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2009, 05:45:59 PM »
What's got to happen is that the perpetrators who are still alive be brought to trial and dealt with by the courts ... but I don't think that will happen some how or other

theskull1

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2009, 05:47:04 PM »
Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?

Yeah thats what I'd love to know. Would need to understand the zeitgeist which existed at that time. The stranglehold the clergy had at that time on the people must have been seriously strong. Unquestioned trust and authority and just like our MP's on expenses (which they have been abusing for countless years) there were no whilstle blowers when it was spotted.
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longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2009, 05:49:35 PM »
The generation above me  :o go on about youth and violence and they were so violent to children. Parents kicked the shit out of their kids and were happy for teachers to do so. I  wouldn't let anyone lay a hand on my kids and have no inclination to do so myself.

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2009, 06:11:47 PM »
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?

Fear. The church had control or influence from the top to the bottom, so anyone speaking out of line would have been finished. It is the one of the sadist chapters  in Irish history for the innocent to be taken advantage of by the ones that were supposedly their protectors. For the priests and nuns that destroyed these peoples lives there can be no forgiveness. Anyone that had the power to put a stop to this is as guilty as those who committed the crimes. Where ever it started it should have been stopped and not let spread into all these schools.

I'd be interested to know if pre 1930 did such things happen in similar schools if they existed, was child abuse widespread in Ireland pre the industrial schools.

Gnevin

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2009, 06:18:21 PM »
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:41:18 PM by Gnevin »
Anyway, long story short... is a phrase whose origins are complicated and rambling.

Declan

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2009, 06:28:07 PM »
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:31:25 PM by Declan »