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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: D4S on May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM

Title: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 20, 2009, 05:09:14 PM
It seems the first thread on this topic has been deleted! WHY?

It is absolutely disgusting the way the catholic church dealt with this unbelievable sickening crime!  They moved priests onto another parish, another small village, or into schools away from parishes (jackpot for the paedos), to continue their brutality.  It makes me sick to the stomach to think the people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulators not knowing what was happening, while bishops stood by and watched.  Some priests still have the audacity to lecture on their pulpits about 'living in sin', 'sex before marriage', children out of wedlock'.  Is it any wonder society is the way it is today, attendances at Mass are so low, and enrolment at Maynooth is virtually non-existent when we were all conned by those who were meant to be trusted.  I know it is not all priests but the number of cases which have come to light have been enormous it seems over the last 10 years.

I hope that any of those who suffered can get some small peace of mind knowing that the catholic church has been outed by todays report proving what we already knew.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 20, 2009, 05:12:56 PM
It seems the first thread on this topic has been deleted! WHY?

It is absolutely disgusting the way the catholic church dealt with this unbelievable sickening crime!  They moved priests onto another parish, another small village, or into schools away from parishes (jackpot for the paedos), to continue their brutality.  It makes me sick to the stomach to think the  people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulatorsnot knowing what was happening, while bishops stood by and watched.  Some priests still have the audacity to lecture on their pulpits about 'living in sin', 'sex before marriage', children out of wedlock'.  Is it any wonder society is the way it is today, attendances at Mass are so low, and enrolment at Maynooth is virtually non-existent when we were all conned by those who were meant to be trusted.  I know it is not all priests but the number of cases which have come to light have been enormous it seems over the last 10 years.

I hope that any of those who suffered can get some small peace of mind knowing that the catholic church has been outed by todays report proving what we already knew.

That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 20, 2009, 05:15:59 PM
Donagh I'm referring to the regular parishioner + parents of children who were abused in that statement.  Although I know todays report is largely on the institutions.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 20, 2009, 05:19:45 PM
There were cruel b*****ds with dog collars in Catholic Schools in the 70s and parents knew. Some of the sadists have passed to their eternal reward  ::) and had cups and awards named after them.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 05:24:26 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Square Ball on May 20, 2009, 05:26:55 PM
Just listened to a fella from Limerick who was put into an industrial school at three, re recalled the sexual, physical and psychological absuse he and others suffered at the hands of some of the brothers at the school. he stated that the night watchman reported this to the school, the church and the state, giving names of the brothers who were doing this and nothing happened.

It was a terrible story to listen to and no doubt one that happened to many and innocent person over many years, a terrible terrible thing indeed
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 20, 2009, 05:33:57 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



I agree 100% Stew.  Got married last year and my new parish priest who married us is a very good man.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on May 20, 2009, 05:38:00 PM
A nine-year investigation has found Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style children's institutions in the Irish Republic. Government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation.

High court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that unmarried mothers were often lumped into – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

The Catholic church had been steeling itself for the report, which was repeatedly delayed by church lawsuits, missing documentation and alleged government obstruction.

The church had already been under fire over the sexual misbehaviour of several priests in various Irish parishes. The commission's experts have sought to produce a comprehensive portrait of sexual, physical and emotional damage inflicted on the child victims. The thousands of survivors said they had no safe way to tell their stories until the investigation began because much of Irish Catholic society sought to label them as liars.

Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, today said it was now up to the Vatican to investigate its religious orders in the republic.

John Kelly, the Isoca coordinator in Dublin, said: "Now that the Ryan [Laffoy] commission is finished, we call upon ... Pope Benedict XVI to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of the Catholic religious orders in Ireland.

"Amongst other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer."

During the commission's investigations, oral evidence was collected from more than 1,000 people, mainly aged from their 50s to 70s.

Several hundred travelled back to Ireland from the US and Australia to describe their childhood of terror and intimidation.

The Christian Brothers delayed the investigation for more than a year with a lawsuit that successfully defended their members' right to anonymity in all references in the report, even in cases in which individual Christian Brothers had already been convicted of sexual and physical attacks on children.

The commission's original judge, Mary Laffoy, resigned from her post in 2003 over claims that the Irish department of education – which was in charge of inspecting the orphanages and industrial schools – was refusing to hand over documents to her.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 20, 2009, 05:40:31 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: red hander on May 20, 2009, 05:45:59 PM
What's got to happen is that the perpetrators who are still alive be brought to trial and dealt with by the courts ... but I don't think that will happen some how or other
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: theskull1 on May 20, 2009, 05:47:04 PM
Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?

Yeah thats what I'd love to know. Would need to understand the zeitgeist which existed at that time. The stranglehold the clergy had at that time on the people must have been seriously strong. Unquestioned trust and authority and just like our MP's on expenses (which they have been abusing for countless years) there were no whilstle blowers when it was spotted.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 20, 2009, 05:49:35 PM
The generation above me  :o go on about youth and violence and they were so violent to children. Parents kicked the shit out of their kids and were happy for teachers to do so. I  wouldn't let anyone lay a hand on my kids and have no inclination to do so myself.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 06:11:47 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?

Fear. The church had control or influence from the top to the bottom, so anyone speaking out of line would have been finished. It is the one of the sadist chapters  in Irish history for the innocent to be taken advantage of by the ones that were supposedly their protectors. For the priests and nuns that destroyed these peoples lives there can be no forgiveness. Anyone that had the power to put a stop to this is as guilty as those who committed the crimes. Where ever it started it should have been stopped and not let spread into all these schools.

I'd be interested to know if pre 1930 did such things happen in similar schools if they existed, was child abuse widespread in Ireland pre the industrial schools.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 06:18:21 PM
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 20, 2009, 06:28:07 PM
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 06:42:49 PM
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 20, 2009, 07:01:24 PM
Quote
but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion

Correct - me included
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: AFS on May 20, 2009, 07:31:08 PM
Channel 4 news running big with this
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 20, 2009, 07:49:07 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
I would in no way try to defend what has gone on LRTF - in fact i'd be vocal in condemning all that has gone on, but 'stew' may be talking about priests today, rather than priests back at that time, who may have looked on. There are plenty of priests now who are in their 'jobs' for the right reasons - they too get tarred with the same brush.

And we can't just talk about priests looking the other way when everyone else was doing the same - but yes, as the saying goes, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2009, 08:01:17 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
A lot of c***ts looked the other way, not just the clergy, for god sakes the children's parent's looked the other way!!! or put them in to these homes to be abused, or threw their daughters out of the house if they became pregnant etc 

I just dont understand how the church could have such control. Was talking to my mother recently about this actually when she was criticising some of the priests years ago getting involved in family situations (one story was about a priest landing to a woman's door to get her to take back the husband that had been beating her) and my response was that it was the people's fault for allowing the priest to do that when they should have been told to f**k off.  Her response was "you didn't go against the priests, you wouldnt be able to go to mass, they wouldnt give you communion etc".  Wtf? So what?

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 


Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: theskull1 on May 20, 2009, 08:29:21 PM

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 


Just in the same way future generations will fail to understand the failings of this generation pints. Unless you were living in that time it's impossible to understand whilst having our current view of the world
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 08:31:30 PM
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 

grow up gnevin and shove your athiestic bullshit up your opinionated hole.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 08:38:38 PM
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .

God did not have these priests do what they did, he had no hand in it and he has said that we all will be judged. the fact is people need to understand that these scumbags were false teachers and that they were only in the priesthood to satisfy their bloodlust & unnatural urges. God was a smokescreen for their putrid acts. The Church is not without blame, especially the Popes of the different eras, instead of makin JP 2 a saint they should be holding him accountable posthumously for his abject failure to stop the awful human misery some of his vicars pawned off on those they were supposed to support and teach.
 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 08:48:23 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Two wors why pog, social stigma.

I was told in the point by the archdeacon that if my kids went to attend a school that was about to open that was integrated that my kids would not be allowed to make their first holy communion. It was all i could do not to tell him to fcuk away off as i was fit to be tied, i would have but the wife was with me telling me with that look to shut up. She proceeded to tell the b**tard that not only where they going to attend but that if he so much as attempted to do what he was suggesting that the media would land on his doorstep and she would see him in court. The kids went to the integrated school and two years after that we emigrated but if we hadnt they would have made their holy communion in mary queen of peace in the point.

Although she handled it very well i still think my way of telling the old todger to feck away aff was the way to go. I am just as happy in a protestant Church as I am my own and I have not confessed my sins to anyone other that the man himself in over 30 years.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
A lot of c***ts looked the other way, not just the clergy, for god sakes the children's parent's looked the other way!!! or put them in to these homes to be abused, or threw their daughters out of the house if they became pregnant etc 

I just dont understand how the church could have such control. Was talking to my mother recently about this actually when she was criticising some of the priests years ago getting involved in family situations (one story was about a priest landing to a woman's door to get her to take back the husband that had been beating her) and my response was that it was the people's fault for allowing the priest to do that when they should have been told to f**k off.  Her response was "you didn't go against the priests, you wouldnt be able to go to mass, they wouldnt give you communion etc".  Wtf? So what?

I just dont understand the control or why people were so fearful. 



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
Quote
but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion

Correct - me included

These people were not God fearing people Declan. They were wolves in sheeps clothing ffs, they will answer to the god they claimed to love and they will be found wanting.

Dont let the likes of this affect your belief in God. This is mans work not Gods.

The christain faith has been under attack from it's inception and will always be under attack, if you abuse children physically, mentally or in any way, shape or form and you are in the clergy you are a false teacher and give not one shite about the God you claimed to love or the flock you lead.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 20, 2009, 08:56:01 PM
I agree that there were a lot of scumbags in the clergy, still are in fact but dont forget that there were and are some tremendous Priests that unfortunately get tarred with the same brush.

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.

Why did all these 'good' people look the other way?
I would in no way try to defend what has gone on LRTF - in fact i'd be vocal in condemning all that has gone on, but 'stew' may be talking about priests today, rather than priests back at that time, who may have looked on. There are plenty of priests now who are in their 'jobs' for the right reasons - they too get tarred with the same brush.

And we can't just talk about priests looking the other way when everyone else was doing the same - but yes, as the saying goes, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

Like judges, mechanics and for example nurses and doctors, there are ggood and bad people in the clergy of all faiths be they Christian, Muslim, jewish etc. Good men did do nothing however this report to me is the cornerstone that ensures this never happens again in Ireland and only good can come from it after the pain subsides and the dust settles. Future generations will probably look back in astonishment at our ineptitude on this matter............... well that and disgust.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 08:57:28 PM
We will get this crap now about how everyone knew and did nothing. Its called spreading the blame to dilute it. Well I'm sorry, it is a load of shite. The people to take full blame are the catholic church as they were responsible for the keep of these people. Today many of the groups within the church apologised again and proclaimed their shame at what happened under their care. They allowed sadists and paedophilles to get into their clergy and did nothing when they knew. No priests to my knowledge ever made waves about the issue - surely if there are so many "good" priests some of them would have taken the side of the innocent child???? Those priests and bishops that turned a blind eye are just as guilty as the other f**kers. We also be told that the parents of these kids are to blame for putting them into these places in the first place too. More bullshit. Most of these kids were born out of wedlock and your same catholic priests demonised single mothers and shamed them into this action. Some had to leave home for ever and some opted to put the child in care, probably after being told they would be looked after. Personally I'd withhold all funding to the church until they pay for all the court cases and claims that our idiotic government decided to pay for them. It is also a absolute disgrace that no prosecutions will result. I'd like to see prosecutions against the abusers and the bishops that did nothing (for with holding evidence)
I realise some devout catholics will struggle to square this report with their beliefs but the truth is out now and the church has been laid bare in front of you (or at least the church of that time). This report has said that abuse (sexual and physical) was "endemic" in these homes. That is a very very strong word. Has it changed today? I don't know.

Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 20, 2009, 09:21:15 PM
We will get this crap now about how everyone knew and did nothing. Its called spreading the blame to dilute it. Well I'm sorry, it is a load of shite. The people to take full blame are the catholic church as they were responsible for the keep of these people. Today many of the groups within the church apologised again and proclaimed their shame at what happened under their care. They allowed sadists and paedophilles to get into their clergy and did nothing when they knew. No priests to my knowledge ever made waves about the issue - surely if there are so many "good" priests some of them would have taken the side of the innocent child???? Those priests and bishops that turned a blind eye are just as guilty as the other f**kers. We also be told that the parents of these kids are to blame for putting them into these places in the first place too. More bullshit. Most of these kids were born out of wedlock and your same catholic priests demonised single mothers and shamed them into this action. Some had to leave home for ever and some opted to put the child in care, probably after being told they would be looked after. Personally I'd withhold all funding to the church until they pay for all the court cases and claims that our idiotic government decided to pay for them. It is also a absolute disgrace that no prosecutions will result. I'd like to see prosecutions against the abusers and the bishops that did nothing (for with holding evidence)
I realise some devout catholics will struggle to square this report with their beliefs but the truth is out now and the church has been laid bare in front of you (or at least the church of that time). This report has said that abuse (sexual and physical) was "endemic" in these homes. That is a very very strong word. Has it changed today? I don't know.

Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.

I'm afraid your obvious lack of knowledge of even the basics tends to dilute your argument Myles. The vast majority of those in the industrial schools were young offenders not born out of wedlock as you claim. Let's not forget also that it was the State judicial system which sent these people to these places for petty crimes. For info on the basic and about who knew have a look at this:

http://www.paddydoyle.com/historyofneglect.html (http://www.paddydoyle.com/historyofneglect.html)

Some excerpts below:

1946- Fr. Flanagan, famous founder of Boystown schools for orphans and delinquents in the US, visits Irish industrial schools. He describes them as “a national disgrace,” leading to a public debate in the Daíl and media. State and Church pressure forces him to leave Ireland.

1949- Minister of Education General Mulcahey received complaints from Cork City Council about Greenmount IS. A visit is arranged (with advanced warning) and the case is dismissed.

1951- State Inspector denounced conditions of industrial schools and care of children.

1952- State funding to industrial schools increased.

1955- Secretary of the Department of Education visited Daingean Industrial School, Offaly, and found that “the cows are better fed than the boys.” Nothing was done for another 16 years.

It goes on...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 09:26:42 PM
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: theskull1 on May 20, 2009, 09:26:56 PM
Like judges, mechanics and for example nurses and doctors, there are ggood and bad people in the clergy of all faiths be they Christian, Muslim, jewish etc. Good men did do nothing however this report to me is the cornerstone that ensures this never happens again in Ireland and only good can come from it after the pain subsides and the dust settles. Future generations will probably look back in astonishment at our ineptitude on this matter............... well that and disgust.

Yeah so all the good priests let themselves be governed by the institution rather than the word of god. Pretty damning for them to listen to their superiors rather than the big man himself but yet thats OK. Surely all their studying of theology should have given them the courage to stand up and be counted and be damned by the evil doers if it came to it for eternal happiness awaited them for their brave deeded. But they didn't and will be damned to hell for not doing anything. When they knew so much was at stake.......we really need to get an answer as to why none of them dealt with this abuse when they had evidence of it.

In those days people worshiped those in higher authority than themselves and were encouraged to see their subservience to them as a path to god (e.g The master in the house was closer to god than the servants, so to get to god they had to do it through serving the master of the house....I read that in a catholic doctrine publication from about 60 years ago....it really is hard to believe nowadays). So it is easy to understand potentially abusive power the doctor, the teacher(I heard they had their fair share as well), and finally the priest had over their minions.

Not the place I go looking for a moral compass anymore.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Caid on May 20, 2009, 09:29:52 PM
Just listened to a fella from Limerick who was put into an industrial school at three, re recalled the sexual, physical and psychological absuse he and others suffered at the hands of some of the brothers at the school. he stated that the night watchman reported this to the school, the church and the state, giving names of the brothers who were doing this and nothing happened.

It was a terrible story to listen to and no doubt one that happened to many and innocent person over many years, a terrible terrible thing indeed

Just finished reading a book by a Limerick fella John Devane (Nobody heard me cry).  My mother bought it for me for xmas and to be honest it isn't the sort of book I qould have bought meself.  But it is a real eye opener to the extent of Paedophilia in 1960's and 1970's Ireland.  And i'm not just talking about priests, but also lawyers, Gardai, celebrities etc.  What is almost as bad is that the victims often had no one to tell.  

Def worth a read though it is somewhat distressing (and graphic)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 09:48:35 PM
Main story on the UK Independent

Thousands were raped in Irish reform schools
By Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press

A fiercely debated, nine-year investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorised thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.


High Court Justice Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse, which is based on testimony from thousands of former students and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions.

More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families — a category that often included unmarried mothers — were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last church-run facilities shut in the 1990s.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless.

"In some schools a high level of ritualized beating was routine. ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximize pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread."

Victims of the system have long demanded that the truth of their experiences be documented and made public, so that children in Ireland never endure such suffering again.

But most leaders of religious orders have rejected the allegations as exaggerations and lies, and testified to the commission that any abuses were the responsibility of often long-dead individuals.

Wednesday's five-volume report sides almost completely with the former students' accounts. It concludes that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy.

"A climate of fear, created by pervasive, excessive and arbitrary punishment, permeated most of the institutions and all those run for boys. Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from," the report concluded.

The commission said overwhelming, consistent testimony from still-traumatized men and women, now in their 50s to 80s, had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential.

The report proposed 21 ways the government could recognize past wrongs, including building a permanent memorial, providing counseling and education to victims and improving Ireland's current child protection services.

But its findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions — in part because the Christian Brothers successfully sued the commission in 2004 to keep the identities of all of its members, dead or alive, unnamed in the report. No real names, whether of victims or perpetrators, appear in the final document.

Irish church leaders and religious orders all declined to comment Wednesday, citing the need to read the massive document first. The Vatican also declined to comment.

The Irish government already has funded a parallel compensation system that has paid 12,000 abuse victims an average of €65,000 ($90,000). About 2,000 claims remain outstanding.

Victims receive the payouts only if they waive their rights to sue the state and the church. Hundreds have rejected that condition and taken their abusers and those church employers to court.

Wednesday's report said children had no safe way to tell authorities about the assaults they were suffering, particularly the sexual aggression from church officials and older inmates in boys' institutions.

"The management did not listen to or believe children when they complained of the activities of some of the men who had responsibility for their care," the commission found. "At best, the abusers were moved, but nothing was done about the harm done to the child. At worst, the child was blamed and seen as corrupted by the sexual activity, and was punished severely."

The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders — that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this opinion as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children.

But the commission said its fact-finding — which included unearthing decades-old church files, chiefly stored in the Vatican, on scores of unreported abuse cases from Ireland's industrial schools — demonstrated that officials understood exactly what was at stake: their own reputations.

It cited numerous examples where school managers told police about child abusers who were not church officials — but never did this when one of their own had committed the crime.

"Contrary to the congregations' claims that the recidivist nature of sexual offending was not understood, it is clear from the documented cases that they were aware of the propensity for abusers to re-abuse," it said.

Religious orders were chiefly concerned about preventing scandal, not the danger to children, it said.

The commission also condemned Ireland's Education Department for aiding the abusive culture through infrequent, toothless inspections that deferred to church authority.

Inspectors were supposed to restrict the use of corporal punishment and make sure the children were adequately fed, clothed and educated — but the report called those inspections "fundamentally flawed."

It said a lone inspector was responsible for monitoring more than 50 industrial schools, schools were told about the visits in advance and inspectors rarely talked to the children.

Wednesday's report also highlighted the rarity of human kindness in the institutions.

"A word of consideration or encouragement, or an act of sympathy or understanding, had a profound effect. Adults in their 60s and 70s recalled seemingly insignificant events that had remained with them all their lives," the report said.

"Often the act of kindness, recalled in such a positive light, arose from the simple fact that the staff member had not given a beating when one was expected."

www.childabusecommission.ie/
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 20, 2009, 09:48:51 PM
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?

But surely the point is that the State were "in charge" of the children and as such it is the State who are ultimately responsible for placing them there in the first place and turning a blind eye to the abuse. Article 40.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann: "The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen". The State were responsible for these children and by their laws, sent them to these schools knowing full well what was happening there. Just as the modern establishment Parties feathered their own nests with the help of the property developers, back then they weren't prepared to rock the boat lest it should hammer their political careers.

All Catholic Priests take a vow of obedience to their Bishop and breaking that vow can lead to them being stripped of their ministry or even excommunicated. Now you might not think that is a big deal but to someone of faith it is the last thing they would risk, even after their life. The vast majority of Catholic priests were and still are very good and humble men.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 09:55:34 PM
Perhaps the majority were young offenders. It doesn't really take from the core argument that the church was in charge of these kids and allowed them to be abused, dishing out blame elsewhere by some is an attempt to share the blame. I do know that many single mothers were forced to put their kids in these place too by priests. With the exception on an American priest where are the good priests on the ground in Ireland that stood up for these kids?

But surely the point is that the State were "in charge" of the children and as such it is the State who are ultimately responsible for placing them there in the first place and turning a blind eye to the abuse. Article 40.3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann: "The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen". The State were responsible for these children and by their laws, sent them to these schools knowing full well what was happening there. Just as the modern establishment Parties feathered their own nests with the help of the property developers, back then they weren't prepared to rock the boat lest it should hammer their political careers.

All Catholic Priests take a vow of obedience to their Bishop and breaking that vow can lead to them being stripped of their ministry or even excommunicated. Now you might not think that is a big deal but to someone of faith it is the last thing they would want. The vast majority of Catholic priests were and still are very good and humble men.

I have not read the full report but I have been listening to the news and reading the papers and to me it seems that this report is laying the vast majoity of the blame on the church. Do you agree that this is what this report is doing?
These priests made plenty of vows before and broke them all - any muppet can take a vow. What happens when the bishop is corrupt like the ones that moved Brendan Smith around the country where he abused everywhere he went. The report above paints a picture of a pathetic church trying to defend the indefensible and then when it is over coming out with apologies. The christian brothers sued to prevent members being named and then issue a "heartfelt" apology today.

I have nothing against a man (or woman) having a relationship with God. Why you would want middle men like the church involved is beyond me.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 10:04:39 PM
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship an invisible pink unicorn ?
 

grow up gnevin and shove your athiestic bullshit up your opinionated hole.
Very well said stew
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 20, 2009, 10:06:04 PM
I have not read the full report but I have been listening to the news and reading the papers and to me it seems that this report is laying the vast majoity of the blame on the church. Do you agree that this is what this report is doing?
These priests made plenty of vows before and broke them all - any muppet can take a vow. What happens when the bishop is corrupt like the ones that moved Brendan Smith around the country where he abused everywhere he went. The report above paints a picture of a pathetic church trying to defend the indefensible and then when it is over coming out with apologies. The christian brothers sued to prevent members being named and then issue a "heartfelt" apology today.

I have nothing against a man (or woman) having a relationship with God. Why you would want middle men like the church involved is beyond me.

I do agree it seems to be laying the blame at the door of the Church but I wouldn't have expected any different from a State sponsored report. I also know many of these Priests broke their vows but you asked why there wasn't an outcry from the 'good' Priests - I am suggesting that they would have been the ones that kept their vows by trying to go through the Bishops and as such were silenced. To get a little of the Priests perspective you have to understand that those who break their vow of obedience to the Bishop will be seen as being guilty of the 'sin of pride' or a preoccupation with the self - the 'original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise' - as Wiki helpfully points out. The 'good' Priest is always obedient and does not work outside the system. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2009, 10:06:40 PM
Quote
Here is the acid test. All ye that go to mass at the weekend - come back on here on Monday and tell us what your parish priest had to say on the matter in his sermon at the weekend. If your priest is expressing sorrow for what is happened then at least we can say that the church is moving on. If your priest ignores the issue then I think ye should be asking why.
Most will say nothing, we've waited years on them to say something.

That said, our local priest (a good sort), a couple of years ago done mass at either christmas or easter (some special occassion). It was clear early on he'd a couple jars in him too! But anyway after holy communion he got up and started to preach again, talked about 10 minutes about some candle stick holder in the chapel and moved on to the subject of child abuse and preached for another 15 minutes, almost breaking down on a number of occasions!, on the disgrace it was, how all priests were being tarred with the one brush, how he and most of them had only good intentions, how embarrassed and disgusted he was at what went on etc etc.  So fair play to him.  It's a pity more wouldnt open their gobs.  
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: comethekingdom on May 20, 2009, 10:07:51 PM
This has made headlines on BBC news at 10!!!!!!!! :o :o
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2009, 10:08:49 PM
Quote
I also know many of these Priests broke their vows but you asked why there wasn't an outcry from the 'good' Priests - I am suggesting that they would have been the ones that kept their vows by trying to go through the Bishops and as such were silenced. To get a little of the Priests perspective you have to understand that those who break their vow of obedience to the Bishop will be seen as being guilty of the 'sin of pride' or a preoccupation with the self - the 'original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise' - as Wiki helpfully points out. The 'good' Priest is always obedient and does not work outside the system.
I dont buy that donagh, any clown with an ounce of common sense would hardly think that they should continue to let a child be abused because they took a vow!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 10:14:04 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 10:14:39 PM
This has made headlines on BBC news at 10!!!!!!!! :o :o

It is going to make headlines worldwide similar to those the abuse of children that happened in Jersey that was uncovered in the last couple of years.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:18:18 PM
Quote
That is the biggest lie that has been perpetrated about the whole thing. Everyone knew what was going on - the State, the Church and importantly the people. They've all as much blame to shoulder for this as the Church. These people weren't the responsibility of the Church but of the Irish State.

Absolutely correct. I've had the same conversation with my parents and the thing that became abundantly clear is that people knew what was happening and it was covered up because it was the done thing - you never interfered in anyone's business and particularly the schools/churches. It was the equivalent of the Taliban running Ireland at the time and God forbid you crossed them.
Corporal punishment was the method of disciplining people and it was carred out in houses, schools etc. The fact that these poor kids were under the protection of the state makes it sickening.
Actually in my school the evil b**tards were all lay teachers and the Brothers were the more enlightened ones

Quote
Would you place your children in the care of someone who claimed to worship and invisible pink unicorn

Reality was that the state absolved themselves of their responsibilty by gladly letting the religous orders take on the task of "looking after" these people - Nothing got to do with the belief system - Think of Chines/Romanian orphanages in recent times for an equivalent situation.

True it can and has happened any where with any system of  beliefs but it's events like this that make a lot of people question God and Religion .

God did not have these priests do what they did, he had no hand in it and he has said that we all will be judged. the fact is people need to understand that these scumbags were false teachers and that they were only in the priesthood to satisfy their bloodlust & unnatural urges. God was a smokescreen for their putrid acts. The Church is not without blame, especially the Popes of the different eras, instead of makin JP 2 a saint they should be holding him accountable posthumously for his abject failure to stop the awful human misery some of his vicars pawned off on those they were supposed to support and teach.
 
Rememeber in the old teastiment God use to take a more direct approach with evil doers . In what why are their urges unnatural if god designed them that way? Surely god intended them to be sick and perverted?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 10:27:15 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.
You didn't read what I typed carefully enough.  You clearly hate the Church, you have made that abundantly clear on any number of occasions, I get it, it bores me to death listening to you bang on about it every time you get a chance but I do get it.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 10:34:52 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.

Some people in the church may have known different bits and pieces, there is certainly no one member of the clergy in Ireland (north and south) who would have had all the details given to them... not until it all came out in the late 90's anyway.  So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.  As others have said, the state knew what was going on and did precious little to stop it.  Those looking someone to blame should have a look at the state's role.  That was much more systematic and deliberate in hiding the truth for years than anything the Church did.

The report disagrees with you. The church did cover it up. Did you read the report above from the indo? They church authorities reported non clergy to the cops if they suspected abuse and never report one of  their own. They buried documents of abuse in Rome and never acted on them. If I worked for a company that covered up child abuse and I would at least refuse to be apart of it and personally, I would have made some serious noise about it. Your argument that the wider church did not know but the government did is nonsensical.
You didn't read what I typed carefully enough.  You clearly hate the Church, you have made that abundantly clear on any number of occasions, I get it, it bores me to death listening to you bang on about it every time you get a chance but I do get it.



I don't hate anything but what is clear is that when you have no argument left you attack the messenger. We are talking about the abuse and destruction of the lives of little children and you bring it down to accusing me of hating of the church. Maybe you should be a little ashamed too. When people talk of the church covering up abuse they of course are talking about senior authorities in the church. However, it also follows that a large number of normal priests had to have known about this and did nothing. It does not mean that every priest knew nor does it mean that every priest is bad.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 10:41:16 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 10:41:35 PM
myles, you still haven't read what I typed carefully enough.

When you deign to read what I already put, I will reply to your other points.  Until then, you can spout and rant and rave as much as you want  :)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:42:50 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 20, 2009, 10:45:20 PM
I do agree it seems to be laying the blame at the door of the Church but I wouldn't have expected any different from a State sponsored report. I also know many of these Priests broke their vows but you asked why there wasn't an outcry from the 'good' Priests - I am suggesting that they would have been the ones that kept their vows by trying to go through the Bishops and as such were silenced. To get a little of the Priests perspective you have to understand that those who break their vow of obedience to the Bishop will be seen as being guilty of the 'sin of pride' or a preoccupation with the self - the 'original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and indeed the ultimate source from which the others arise' - as Wiki helpfully points out. The 'good' Priest is always obedient and does not work outside the system. 

Firstly I would agree that the state are ultimately reponsible for state institutions regardless of who they outsourced the running to.

However, the Ferns investigation showed the fallacy of the above argument in terms of church rules:

As early as the Didache in the first century outlawed the abuse of children.  It was formally brought into Canon Law (Law 71) in 309.  In 1962 a document from Pope John XXII entitled "Crimens Sollicitationis"  to bring in this secrecy aspect with the threat of excommunication of witness etc.. who spoke publicly.   As Myles points out any human with an ounce of sense (or compassion) would see which Law was more important.  The above document also stated that all cases where to reported to the Vatican directly, giving the Pope ultimate power in these cases.

I am sure there are indeed good/bad priest and religious.  However the Catholic Church, specifically the Vatican and Pope by claiming ultimate power in the context of abuse, must also assume ultimate responsibility.  This responsibility should be realised by dealing wth the culprits, not using the strength of the organisation to persecute victims.  As for the "sin of pride", is it not pride that saw the diocese of Cloyne continuing this year to hide credible cases of abuse from the authorities and hence endangering children again?

Regardless of individuals within, the Catholic Church as an organisation has still not addressed this issue and as such is a corrupt, unacceptable organisation masquerading as a religion.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 10:46:33 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: hardstation on May 20, 2009, 10:46:44 PM
Jaysus, ardmhachaabu, a strange post.

"You clearly hate the church".

It's like when someone reports abuse of children by Priests to another Priest and he says "You don't love God".
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 20, 2009, 10:50:46 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.

Does the report outline the number of priests that brought complaints to their bishop? That would be a question worth knowing the answer to.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 10:55:14 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 10:57:50 PM
Jaysus, ardmhachaabu, a strange post.

"You clearly hate the church".

It's like when someone reports abuse of children by Priests to another Priest and he says "You don't love God".
I don't think so hs, I have seen myles's attitude to the church in many posts.  I have no desire to trawl through his posts to give you examples.  The posts I am talking about clearly show what myles thinks, which is fair enough imo.  I am not saying that everyone has to see things in the way I do.  Neither will I let anyone rubbish the entire church because of the actions of a few.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 10:58:01 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.

Does the report outline the number of priests that brought complaints to their bishop? That would be a question worth knowing the answer to.

I can't answer that but would agree, it'd be interesting to know, but I'd doubt that all of the complaints were recorded. It would be hard to piece together a number from events that spanned seven decades. I'd also imagine that a number of the victims aren't around any more and a few won't ever come forward.

Is the report being made public?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 20, 2009, 10:58:37 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.
...  
So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.

Maybe not everyone knew but it was systematic.  The pope issued an order to keep it in-house on pain of excommunication.  The order came from the top down.  It doesn't get anymore systematic than that!  For example Sean Fortune was reported for abusing children in the scouts before he was even ordained.   In the early 80's the Papal Nuncio wrote to parents who had complained about Fortune that he had raised the issue with Pope John Paul II himself.  So either the Papal Nuncio lied (in writing!) or the Pope decided to let him at it for another 15 years.  So the Pope, the Pope's ambassador, the Irish Cardinal and Bishop Comiskey knew they had an evil sadist on their hands (so much so that he had 3 psychiatrict treatments at the church's expense) but they left him in ministry for a further 15 years until the Guards caught up with him?  

Doesn't get any more systematic than that.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Sandino on May 20, 2009, 11:00:47 PM
I have a question for those of you posters who have have argued  that there were those in society who must have stood by when they were bound to know this was happening and did nothing. Where you out in the streets when war and death and destruction was directed at Iraq? A war declared in all our names and in which our countries played an active part. Did you do all you could do to stop it? How will history judge us? This is such a tragic story but i feel its wrong to judge others were subservient to important members of society at that time.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 20, 2009, 11:04:13 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 11:41:55 PM
I don't understand why some people are saying the entire church knew about it.  I know a priest whose brother (also a priest) has been convicted of child abuse on several counts.  The priest I know certainly didn't know what his brother was up to until it was in the glare of the media.
...  
So it is erroneous at best to say that the church covered it all up.  You can say that some members of the church covered it up but it wasn't systematic and not everyone knew.

Maybe not everyone knew but it was systematic.  The pope issued an order to keep it in-house on pain of excommunication.  The order came from the top down.  It doesn't get anymore systematic than that!  For example Sean Fortune was reported for abusing children in the scouts before he was even ordained.   In the early 80's the Papal Nuncio wrote to parents who had complained about Fortune that he had raised the issue with Pope John Paul II himself.  So either the Papal Nuncio lied (in writing!) or the Pope decided to let him at it for another 15 years.  So the Pope, the Pope's ambassador, the Irish Cardinal and Bishop Comiskey knew they had an evil sadist on their hands (so much so that he had 3 psychiatrict treatments at the church's expense) but they left him in ministry for a further 15 years until the Guards caught up with him?  

Doesn't get any more systematic than that.


Jim, I would say that the higher up you go in the Church (as a member of clergy) that the more responsibility you have to the whole of the Church.  Who are you to know whether the Pope actually knew or not?  Who is to say that his secretary didn't shield him from it?  You don't know the full facts, neither do I.  Even if the Pope did know, how do you think he came to the decision?  Do you think he would have come to it easy?  Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?

The media are just using the report being published as yet another stick to beat the church with, nothing new there and certainly nothing newsworthy.  We all know what happened.  I daresay some of us know people who were abused.  I am not condoning any of it.  I just think that it's easy for people to cast the entire blame on the church when the state knew exactly what was going on for years and did absolutely nothing about it.  How many government employees decided to say nothing?  I don't see anyone clamouring against the government though.  I have heard for calls for prosecution against clergy involved and rightly so (if they are still living) but I haven't heard anyone calling for government employees to be taken to account for their failings.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 11:43:41 PM
By the way, the thread title reads to me as if someone in an administrative role has done something wrong...  :D
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: hardstation on May 20, 2009, 11:46:24 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2009, 11:49:49 PM
I have a question for those of you posters who have have argued  that there were those in society who must have stood by when they were bound to know this was happening and did nothing. Where you out in the streets when war and death and destruction was directed at Iraq? A war declared in all our names and in which our countries played an active part. Did you do all you could do to stop it? How will history judge us? This is such a tragic story but i feel its wrong to judge others were subservient to important members of society at that time.
I dont see the correlation, we are not in a position to do anything about Iraq but we would be in a postion to do something if our child told us they were being abused or we became aware of a child being abused.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 20, 2009, 11:57:39 PM
Jim, I would say that the higher up you go in the Church (as a member of clergy) that the more responsibility you have to the whole of the Church.  Who are you to know whether the Pope actually knew or not?  Who is to say that his secretary didn't shield him from it?  You don't know the full facts, neither do I.

My point is that the papacy issued a decree saying that they were the arbitrators and reports were to go to them, not external.   By taking on that power, the papacy took on the reponsibility.  Whether the Pope personally knew or not is immaterial to me.  A Pope gave the order, so the Pope is responsible.  That was a huge tenet of the findings in the Ferns report.

Even if the Pope did know, how do you think he came to the decision?  Do you think he would have come to it easy?  Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?

In my opinion (only an opinion), the greater good was the image of the church.  That, to my my mind, cannot outweigh 15 years of a pervert running amok around Wexford.  Even worse it was 15 years of the church serving kids on a platter to him by putting him into contact with kids.  However if you can suggest a "greater good" that was served I'm open to suggestion.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 20, 2009, 11:59:00 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
It means what it says
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 20, 2009, 11:59:29 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.
Does committing the acts surely must shoulder the vast majority of the blame and does  directly involved in the organisation who covered it up must also shoulder alot of the blame and then you get to  the state .
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 12:03:19 AM
Jim, I would say that the higher up you go in the Church (as a member of clergy) that the more responsibility you have to the whole of the Church.  Who are you to know whether the Pope actually knew or not?  Who is to say that his secretary didn't shield him from it?  You don't know the full facts, neither do I.

My point is that the papacy issued a decree saying that they were the arbitrators and reports were to go to them, not external.   By taking on that power, the papacy took on the reponsibility.  Whether the Pope personally knew or not is immaterial to me.  A Pope gave the order, so the Pope is responsible.  That was a huge tenet of the findings in the Ferns report.

Even if the Pope did know, how do you think he came to the decision?  Do you think he would have come to it easy?  Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?

In my opinion (only an opinion), the greater good was the image of the church.  That, to my my mind, cannot outweigh 15 years of a pervert running amok around Wexford.  Even worse it was 15 years of the church serving kids on a platter to him by putting him into contact with kids.  However if you can suggest a "greater good" that was served I'm open to suggestion.


Jim, the papacy isn't the Pope so you can't say that any Pope was responsible. 

What I would say the greater good wasn't just the image of the church but the good work that the Church does.  Don't forget this was only a very small minority of people who engaged in such behaviour.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: hardstation on May 21, 2009, 12:05:38 AM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
It means what it says
The greater good for whom? If the Pope decided that it was the 'greater good' to save face of his church over hundreds of children being sexually and physically abused, he is a horrible person.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 21, 2009, 12:07:32 AM
Jim, I would say that the higher up you go in the Church (as a member of clergy) that the more responsibility you have to the whole of the Church.  Who are you to know whether the Pope actually knew or not?  Who is to say that his secretary didn't shield him from it?  You don't know the full facts, neither do I.

My point is that the papacy issued a decree saying that they were the arbitrators and reports were to go to them, not external.   By taking on that power, the papacy took on the reponsibility.  Whether the Pope personally knew or not is immaterial to me.  A Pope gave the order, so the Pope is responsible.  That was a huge tenet of the findings in the Ferns report.

Even if the Pope did know, how do you think he came to the decision?  Do you think he would have come to it easy?  Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?


In my opinion (only an opinion), the greater good was the image of the church.  That, to my my mind, cannot outweigh 15 years of a pervert running amok around Wexford.  Even worse it was 15 years of the church serving kids on a platter to him by putting him into contact with kids.  However if you can suggest a "greater good" that was served I'm open to suggestion.


Jim, the papacy isn't the Pope so you can't say that any Pope was responsible. 

What I would say the greater good wasn't just the image of the church but the good work that the Church does.  Don't forget this was only a very small minority of people who engaged in such behaviour.
So was the papacy wrong in the actions it took?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 21, 2009, 12:09:12 AM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.
Does committing the acts surely must shoulder the vast majority of the blame and does  directly involved in the organisation who covered it up must also shoulder alot of the blame and then you get to  the state .

The individuals who committed the acts are surely the ones who shoulder the blame for the acts, for allowing them to go unpunished and to continue in my eyes lies with both the church and the state. Both appear to have known what went on and neither intervened or investigated, grossly neglecting the children who were abused. The state as good as helped to cover it up by failing to deal with it.

In my own eyes the offenders were never priests, they hid behind a collar that criminally was given protect by both the church and the state.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 21, 2009, 12:13:19 AM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.
Does committing the acts surely must shoulder the vast majority of the blame and does  directly involved in the organisation who covered it up must also shoulder alot of the blame and then you get to  the state .

The individuals who committed the acts are surely the ones who shoulder the blame for the acts, for allowing them to go unpunished and to continue in my eyes lies with both the church and the state. Both appear to have known what went on and neither intervened or investigated, grossly neglecting the children who were abused. The state as good as helped to cover it up by failing to deal with it.

In my own eyes the offenders were never priests, they hid behind a collar that criminally was given protect by both the church and the state.
I'd agree with that assessment.
Question why did the priesthood attract such a large percentage of this sort of people? Was it a commonly known fact or  maybe a result of celibacy ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 21, 2009, 12:24:41 AM
Part of the reason why such abuses unchecked , is revealed by the confusion of some posters on this thread, as to who is the Church. Our Grand-Parents and Parents were taught and believed, that Pope,Bishops, Religious Orders etc.. were the Church. This was theologically wrong. The Church  includes all baptised members be they clerical or lay. While it is true that the clerical faction seized control, and became drunk with power, the timidity and obsequiousness of the laity in the wider Catholic society and state, make them equally culpable. Donagh is correct when he states , that the responsibility of protecting the welfare of children, under the constitution , lay with the state. Not only did they fail then, they are failing today, and there is very little outcry. So lets not look rightously down our noses at previous generations, lets start answering for our own
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Turlough O Carolan on May 21, 2009, 01:40:40 AM
Part of the reason why such abuses unchecked , is revealed by the confusion of some posters on this thread, as to who is the Church. Our Grand-Parents and Parents were taught and believed, that Pope,Bishops, Religious Orders etc.. were the Church. This was theologically wrong. The Church  includes all baptised members be they clerical or lay. While it is true that the clerical faction seized control, and became drunk with power, the timidity and obsequiousness of the laity in the wider Catholic society and state, make them equally culpable. Donagh is correct when he states , that the responsibility of protecting the welfare of children, under the constitution , lay with the state. Not only did they fail then, they are failing today, and there is very little outcry. So lets not look rightously down our noses at previous generations, lets start answering for our own

Correct. Many people are still loathe to stand up. During the building boom of the Celtic Tiger, I saw the church sell some land to a developer in a small town in the West of Ireland. Part of that land contained an Industrial School that closed around 1969 - actually it just changed into a convent. Before the builders could build their shiny new houses there was the minor inconvenience of having to remove some coffins that were buried in unmarked graves. Coffins of young people who were thrown into this school - God knows how they died, God knows who they were - and the church didn't have the decency of giving them a dignified burial. They were removed quickly one night so the houses could be built. No one said a word. The houses were built. The shameful values of the Ireland of the past and the Ireland of the present certainly collided that night
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 21, 2009, 07:37:24 AM
Quote
Question why did the priesthood attract such a large percentage of this sort of people? Was it a commonly known fact or  maybe a result of celibacy

Nothing to do with celibacy - Read somewhere that the percentage involved when compared to other "professions" wasn't that great i.e. Just as many doctors, teachers, etc. Pangurban's assessment is quite good.

It's very hard to judge the inaction of the community at large from 2009 but I know from talking to my parents and particularly people who worked in the Dept of Education during the 50's, 60's and 70 's that this was a different country and it was too all intents and purpose a catholic fundamentalist state - the equivalent of what is termed now an islamic republic if you like. 

Our own PP has spoken out a number of occasions on this and apoloogised etc - Actually spoke to him about it once and he confirmed my thining on the "silence" of the vast majority of people.

The state to my mind is equally as culpable in failing in their primary duty towards the children of the countrry and we've seen enough in recent times that that attitude hasn't changed either.

   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Hound on May 21, 2009, 09:08:56 AM
Quote
Question why did the priesthood attract such a large percentage of this sort of people? Was it a commonly known fact or  maybe a result of celibacy

Nothing to do with celibacy - Read somewhere that the percentage involved when compared to other "professions" wasn't that great i.e. Just as many doctors, teachers, etc. Pangurban's assessment is quite good.
   
If you are saying there are as many (percentage wise) paedophile accountants and lawyers as priest, that's just plain wrong, and miles wrong.

The percentages are skewed by the celibacy factor. There are many men would make good priests, bar the fact they wanted a marry woman.

Plus if you were homosexual and also a paedophile, preisthood would be high on  your agenda for a job. Especially as up to the last couple of decades gays were held in such low regard in Irish society generally. Whereas if they choose the preisthood, then suddenly they have power and are on a pedestal. Of course priesthood would be a magnet for gay paedophiles.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 21, 2009, 09:21:43 AM
By the way, the thread title reads to me as if someone in an administrative role has done something wrong...  :D

Quite an immature statement, you were getting it tough there trying to stand up for the church mr ardmhaca.  Google 'clerical abuse' and you can read all about it, no mention of administrative errors, just of the abuse and degradation of children by brutes.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 21, 2009, 09:40:05 AM
Quote
If you are saying there are as many (percentage wise) paedophile accountants and lawyers as priest, that's just plain wrong, and miles wrong.

Didn't explain my thoughts clearly - I don't think celibacy has anything to do with child abuse and I don't think it is the reason why religious orders attracted a higher proportion of abusers than anywhere else. Re the percentages I thought I read somewhere that the number of clerics who were chlid abusers were not significantly greater a percentage than other professions - In other words out of every 100 cases it wasn't like 25 were religious and only 2 were teachers or lawyers or accountants etc. I maybe wrong on that but I'll try and root out the research articles I read before.   

I think there is a whole thesis involved in why they were "attracted" to the religious life and one is the solitary nature of the job, power over kids etc. Not too sure If I picked you up wrong I don't think you should link homosexuality and paedophilia so directly as you did
Quote
Plus if you were homosexual and also a paedophile, priesthood would be high on  your agenda for a job.
-
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: SLIGONIAN on May 21, 2009, 10:43:23 AM
At the end of day, In my whole life experience I never encountered ANY PROOF that God exists. Zero, even in the darkest nights no sign. And yet we are to believe blindly based on few visions here and there and happy are those who believe but have not seen. I dont believe everything the catholic church says, i think that shows a serious lack of cop on. There are good Priests out there of course, i served under a Fr Healy for 4 yrs and he was a great man, so you cant pigeon hole them all.

It pisses me off Id like to thank God for this that and the other on the oscar poduim or whatever, really but it was you who did it not God, wasnt it you who did it. Where is God with all the suffering? He never intervenes does He, never never, ever, only 2000 yrs ago with Jesus and Moses why then? and not now? Reality says to me you really only have yourself to rely and your prayers are futile.

What happened in these places was beyond anything, really, it so sad and disgusting, from all angles, I really hope the priests face it at mass this weekend and give there feeling  on it. My heart goes out those that were the innocent victims. Just hope this isnt happening today and will never happen again. The amount of abuse of power in Ireland is astonishing when you stand back, the govt, the guards, the priests etc... although the first 2 prob not as bad as the priests nevertheless a poisoness trend.

For everyones information this was on all the Arab, bbc world, italian, French etc.. channels last night as there main news item.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: johnneycool on May 21, 2009, 11:06:02 AM

I would say that like any other vocation, there are good people in the Church and there are bad people in the church, I hate to see the good men get hurt for the sins of the bad.



Then its time these good men and women had the convictions to stand up and be counted, give evidence against their colleagues who've let the institution of the catholic church down not to mention the terrible crimes they allowed their colleagues to get away with.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lazer on May 21, 2009, 12:56:25 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.

It is not the church or the state that is ultimately responsible, but the indiviaduals that carried out the abuse
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 01:13:35 PM
In fairness you've no idea how many priests tried to bring this out in the open and neither do I, I've read a little from the Paddy Doyle website from the link someone posted, and it details several priests who tried to get something out in the open about it. How many times does it mention that the state decided "nothing useful" would come from an investigation. There are several parties to blame for this. The state was as adept in covering this up with their refusal to investigate the schools, or the PR stunts they pulled as the church.
So your saying don't blame the driver that ran you over blame the person who made the car?

Are you insinuating that the state had no role or responsibility in this? I put an important sentence I wrote in bold.
No but primary blame rests with the Church .

I disagree, I think the state is equally to blame. They ignored the problems that were in these school, increased funding, failed to investigate. Allowed the church to take the problem of setting up these schools and administering them themselves. Failed to put together a criteria for someone to be deemed in need of going to care (I use this term lightly as to say that someone should have gone to a facility like this with what went on is unbearable).

These men and women that abused children are citizens of this country, and as citizens should have been governed by the laws of the land laid down by the state before the church and enforced by the state. The ministers that failed to investigate the schools are as much to blame as the heads of the church who also ignored the problem.

It is not the church or the state that is ultimately responsible, but the indiviaduals that carried out the abuse
That's a cop out. Those who facilitated it are equally responsible.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 01:14:57 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 01:49:01 PM
Donagh I'm referring to the regular parishioner + parents of children who were abused in that statement.  Although I know todays report is largely on the institutions.
Before that, you had written  "people of Ireland stood by and trusted these manipulatorsnot knowing what was happening"

I don't have any bone to pick with your post but if you don't mind I'll make a few comments.
These forms of sexual abuse,  the nature of it, are a very complex picture, both from people who effect and those who are affected.
I only want to address the    "what parents knew" bit.

It's very hard to measure up what people knew was happening against their ability to deny it to themselves.
Personally, this is the one issue that took me a long time to understand as best I could, come to terms with it and get away from blame.
It would require about 50 chapters to explain properly.

Both the children and parents were abused, in different ways. As we know, abusers are the most devious.
Parents were abused, their trust and their ability/ parental guardianships were abused.
Abuse does not just affect one individual but the entire family dynamics are damaged to different degrees for decades, consciously and unconsciously.

Personally, no abuser ever got far with me as a kid, I don't know how, I just had an antenna for those sorts of things, but other family members were abused.
In my case, there was a holy trinity, a lay teacher, a Christian brother and a travelling salesman, who did their level best.
The teacher became a part of a very high profile prosecution where he eventually pleaded guilty.  
Members of our family were directly involved as witnesses.
My Mother was totally supportive of the witnesses involved the instant it became known to her.
In one discussion I had with my Mother, I was attempting to point out (while not actually saying it) that it was a bigger crime that an abused kid feared telling his parents because they wouldn't believe him and probably get a whack. I said, rather than face not being believed by one's own parent, a kid would shut up. That, to a kid/teenager,  trust from one's parents is a major one. My Mother did not get this. For the first time I told her about the distant family member the (Christian Brother) who tried to abuse me. She simply did not take it on board,  not exactly not believing me, but just changed the subject. I impressed upon her that I was not making this up, can she at least acknowledge what I have just said and discuss it. Again she gave a similar response. So I said, there is a perfect example of not being believed, that I had no trauma from the attempted abuse but the fact that my own mother did not believe me in this matter gave me a pain.
There was a social environment where all this abuse could prosper. Part of that environment was a stupendous denial of evidence and even if it was offered by one's own children, it was not accepted as being real. To my mind, some people knew the extent and were complicit, but I object to the general use of the term "people knew" and I object to you claiming that "parents knew". Many had not even the consciousness to know.

 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 21, 2009, 02:10:03 PM
Is a lot to read all the messages but those male and female paedophiles must have thought they died and gone to heaven having these buildings with all the children locked up and no-one to account to. The reports on the radio this morning were heartbreaking and hopefully if there is a God the fires of hell will burn these evil b*****rds for eternity.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 21, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
I have to say Main Street, luckily I have not had the first hand experience you are talking about, I come from a different generation so perhaps I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss the topic in any depth without possibly offending certain people, but I hope I haven't offended you.  It doesn't however make me feel any less disgusted or horrified when you hear of the stories from individuals and to think there are 10s of thousands of stories like that.

I like longrunsthefox listened to the radio this morning and it was gutwrenching and very emotional.  I listened to 1 lady of 65 totally unable to compose herself on stephen nolan, at the physical + UNBELIEVABLE emotional abuse she had suffered at being told she was worthless, ugly, an illegitamite b**tard growing up for 16 years in an institution.  She grew up and had a family and still feels worthless and is massively emotionally scarred yet.  Another man on Gerry Ryan spoke of the abuse he endured, his marriage is now broke up and he never even brought himself to tell his wife such was his shame.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 03:05:18 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II. Outside of Ireland your Catholic experience was very similar in that families had weekly mass attendance, devotions, family prayer and a reliance on the clergy to lay out all the rules to get to heaven. Life was good, or so it seemed.  
In Ireland this reliance on clergy extended from what I understand beyond just religious matters.  The Clergy had a power that very few challenged.
Things changed around the world and in Ireland post Vatican II but the clergy up until recently held onto that stigma of power and ultimate respect.  This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
It is a very sad reality and a lot of people stood by and let it happen.  Blame could be diluted and we can all go back and forth as much as we want but ultimately the Church needs to take responsibility here for the actions of its clergy.  Nothing else will satisfy the majority and nothing less will help towards healing a huge wound which remains open.

I wonder if this happened though would people be satisfied?  Would it be enough?




Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 21, 2009, 03:30:24 PM
Jim, the papacy isn't the Pope so you can't say that any Pope was responsible. 

The Church hide behind their rules, their rules make the Vatican and hence the Pope directly responsible.  The Church cannot have it's cake and eat it.  Either they accept the laws of the land or if they are above the laws they accept the responsibility.  The Pope is the head-honcho so I can't accept that the Pope and papacy are not equivalent here.

What I would say the greater good wasn't just the image of the church but the good work that the Church does.  Don't forget thiOnces was only a very small minority of people who engaged in such behaviour.

I'm not sure those that were abused due to the Church's inaction would agree.  Also if the Pope and the Church claim they didn't know about the problem on one hand, they can't claim that they know if was a minority on the other.

Once again having their cake and eating it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 21, 2009, 04:01:56 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II. Outside of Ireland your Catholic experience was very similar in that families had weekly mass attendance, devotions, family prayer and a reliance on the clergy to lay out all the rules to get to heaven. Life was good, or so it seemed. 
In Ireland this reliance on clergy extended from what I understand beyond just religious matters.  The Clergy had a power that very few challenged.
Things changed around the world and in Ireland post Vatican II but the clergy up until recently held onto that stigma of power and ultimate respect.  This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
It is a very sad reality and a lot of people stood by and let it happen.  Blame could be diluted and we can all go back and forth as much as we want but ultimately the Church needs to take responsibility here for the actions of its clergy.  Nothing else will satisfy the majority and nothing less will help towards healing a huge wound which remains open.

I wonder if this happened though would people be satisfied?  Would it be enough?



What might be a start would be all the Catholic clergy paedos and sadists still alive and those who covered them up still alive be brought before the criminal courts like the old Nazi War criminals. The ones who are dead named and those people abused compensated out of the church's coffers.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 04:15:48 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
I don't understand your question on the years prior to Vatican II Maguire if you want to elaborate?

Looking at the bigger picture in comparison to those members of the clergy who did not participate in forms of abuse the ratio is quite vast therefore I think I am justified in labeling the offenders as "few".
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on May 21, 2009, 06:04:23 PM
If the abuse was 'endemic' and you have a aportotion some blame to those who knew about it but done nothing or turned a blind eye then i would not think you are justified.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 06:07:34 PM
If the abuse was 'endemic' and you have a aportotion some blame to those who knew about it but done nothing or turned a blind eye then i would not think you are justified.
Based on that argument then can I blame society also?  I was trying to keep this to blaming the Church here ludermor.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 06:14:16 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
I don't understand your question on the years prior to Vatican II Maguire if you want to elaborate?

Looking at the bigger picture in comparison to those members of the clergy who did not participate in forms of abuse the ratio is quite vast therefore I think I am justified in labeling the offenders as "few".
In relation to Vatican II:
I thought you were implying that all of these wrongdoings were pre-Vatican II. When you said: "the Catholic World was a completely different place", I read this as implying that the abuse that went on was pre-Vatican II and that Vatican II sorted things out. Maybe i picked you up wrong?

I can't agree with your second point. I can't reconcile the idea of "a few" with the term "endemic". And no one seems to be arguing with the report's use of the term. Synonyms of 'endemic' include: 'widespread', 'common', 'rife', 'prevalent'.... not 'few'.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on May 21, 2009, 06:50:38 PM
If the abuse was 'endemic' and you have a aportotion some blame to those who knew about it but done nothing or turned a blind eye then i would not think you are justified.
Based on that argument then can I blame society also?  I was trying to keep this to blaming the Church here ludermor.

Not sure if you can,but i dont know how you can seperate the people  who commited the crime and the people who knew about them. Most of these people seem to have been transferred from one institution to another with the superiors ( be they bishops, parish preists, principles) knowing of their 'habits'.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 06:56:08 PM
Ireland and in fact the entire Catholic World was a completely different place Pre-Vatican II.
But did this report not cover a 40 or 60 year period up to the 80s?

This allowed those few offenders that existed within the church to continue to prey on their victims under the guise of the collar or habit.
Come on Iceman, a few offenders would not be "endemic".
I don't understand your question on the years prior to Vatican II Maguire if you want to elaborate?

Looking at the bigger picture in comparison to those members of the clergy who did not participate in forms of abuse the ratio is quite vast therefore I think I am justified in labeling the offenders as "few".
In relation to Vatican II:
I thought you were implying that all of these wrongdoings were pre-Vatican II. When you said: "the Catholic World was a completely different place", I read this as implying that the abuse that went on was pre-Vatican II and that Vatican II sorted things out. Maybe i picked you up wrong?

I can't agree with your second point. I can't reconcile the idea of "a few" with the term "endemic". And no one seems to be arguing with the report's use of the term. Synonyms of 'endemic' include: 'widespread', 'common', 'rife', 'prevalent'.... not 'few'.

I was merely trying to set the scene for some people who do not even know of Vatican II or understand its implications for the wider Catholic Church.  Also the insight into Catholicism pre-Vatican II helps explain the stigma around priests, especially in Ireland, and people's reluctance to challenge them on anything.

I'll concede that based on the report my use of "few" doesn't carry much weight but as I stressed before I was apportioning the offenders to the Global Church - seeing as it is the Global Catholic Church and Papacy under attack and being held accountable here.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 07:06:06 PM
I have to say Main Street, luckily I have not had the first hand experience you are talking about, I come from a different generation so perhaps I'm not knowledgeable enough to discuss the topic in any depth without possibly offending certain people, but I hope I haven't offended you.  It doesn't however make me feel any less disgusted or horrified when you hear of the stories from individuals and to think there are 10s of thousands of stories like that.

If I was offended you would know about it :) You just have to more careful about putting onus on the family, that they must have known what was happening.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 07:16:27 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Tell me this Maguire, who are you to judge anyone?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 07:17:43 PM
By the way, the thread title reads to me as if someone in an administrative role has done something wrong...  :D

Quite an immature statement, you were getting it tough there trying to stand up for the church mr ardmhaca.  Google 'clerical abuse' and you can read all about it, no mention of administrative errors, just of the abuse and degradation of children by brutes.
Wind your neck in son.  I have given my opinion and nothing more.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 07:19:58 PM
Jim, the papacy isn't the Pope so you can't say that any Pope was responsible. 

The Church hide behind their rules, their rules make the Vatican and hence the Pope directly responsible.  The Church cannot have it's cake and eat it.  Either they accept the laws of the land or if they are above the laws they accept the responsibility.  The Pope is the head-honcho so I can't accept that the Pope and papacy are not equivalent here.

What I would say the greater good wasn't just the image of the church but the good work that the Church does.  Don't forget thiOnces was only a very small minority of people who engaged in such behaviour.

I'm not sure those that were abused due to the Church's inaction would agree.  Also if the Pope and the Church claim they didn't know about the problem on one hand, they can't claim that they know if was a minority on the other.

Once again having their cake and eating it.
Jim, where is your criticism of the state?  The authorities knew all along what was going on and refused to do anything about it.  You can't only blame the Church if you are being even-handed about it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 07:23:49 PM
Main Street, very brave of you.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 21, 2009, 07:33:51 PM
Such a sensitive issue will take a long long time to resolve and many if not all of those who suffered at the hands of these so called "leaders" may never get over it.
It is our responsibility as human beings to not let this happen again - through the Church, in schools or any other place.
For those of us who give a crap it is our responsibility as Catholics to insist that the correct structures are in place to make sure pedophiles and other men and women with mental illnesses are not permitted to enter the clergy.  The lay people need to take a much more active role in this and as a congregation we should not slam the Church but support it through these times and encourage others to do the same.

There is no way forward if we continue to look back and there is no way to climb out of a whole if people continue to judge and condemn us all for the sins of the minority.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 21, 2009, 07:36:11 PM
My uncle was a priest, so all the people who say all the clergy are evil scumbags are wrong. But those who did terrible things to those poor children at the time in those schools were all f**king b**tards. It is an awful shame we had to wait this long for this enquiry to come out. Just because my uncle was a priest, I am not going to say the church were right on this, in fact the opposite is the case. They should be ashamed and they all lied. The Church did let the young children down big time. Society under the Church's firm grip let the children down at the time. Parents let their children by letting them go to those schools, Church let them down by abusing them, society let them down as they didn't want to know about it. That's my opinion on the whole sorry issue. But by Christ those 'priests' who committed those crimes and the Bishops who refused to name anyone in their dioceses are some c***ts.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 07:49:50 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Tell me this Maguire, who are you to judge anyone?
I'm not judging anyone, merely commenting on someone else's opinion - this being a discussion board - that there may be a 'greater good' than defending children.

I don't believe there is a justifiably higher priority here than protecting the children. I think any attempts to do so are disgraceful.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 21, 2009, 08:02:13 PM
For anyone interested the report is available online at http://www.childabusecommission.ie/

Minder I'm sorry to hear that you had been threatened in such a way, you comments highlight how it can be difficult to know who to seek help or guidance from in those situations. It must take great strength to have faced them.

What would be on my mind is that the church had a lot to do with the GAA over the years.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:10:58 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Tell me this Maguire, who are you to judge anyone?
I'm not judging anyone, merely commenting on someone else's opinion - this being a discussion board - that there may be a 'greater good' than defending children.

I don't believe there is a justifiably higher priority here than protecting the children. I think any attempts to do so are disgraceful.
Yes, you are judging.  You are judging me for one with your 'disgraceful' comment.

Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I am not condoning those clergy who were involved just to be clear and I also believe they were very evil people who manipulated young people.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Myles Na G. on May 21, 2009, 08:15:57 PM
If the greater good of the Church is served by allowing the physical and sexual abuse of children to continue unhindered, then in truth it is a morally bankrupt and corrupted organisation.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 21, 2009, 08:19:42 PM
Quote
Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I'm sory ardmhacha it sounds like you're looking ways to defend the indefensible. 
I dont see how the church alerting the police to the abuse they've discovered would put the church at risk. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:25:38 PM
Quote
Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I'm sory ardmhacha it sounds like you're looking ways to defend the indefensible. 
I dont see how the church alerting the police to the abuse they've discovered would put the church at risk. 
Pints, again I was replying to someone who was blaming the Popes.  I am not seeking to defend what happened.  That would be stupid and wrong.

You do know that members of the clergy alerted the authorities at various times throughout the years and were ignored ?

In my opinion, highlighting the abuse at an earlier stage would have been the right thing to do.  It didn't happen like that so I am putting my own interpretation on it as to why that happened the way it did.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 21, 2009, 08:28:12 PM
Quote
Question why did the priesthood attract such a large percentage of this sort of people? Was it a commonly known fact or  maybe a result of celibacy ?

Celibacy has nothing to do with it, going without will not make you rape children but it's weird how they collected such a  bunch of perverts and b**tards of women who'd strip and beat children?

Declan
Quote
Read somewhere that the percentage involved when compared to other "professions" wasn't that great i.e. Just as many doctors, teachers, etc. Pangurban's assessment is quite good.

I'd find that difficult to believe declan, the abuse was so widespread, is there any idea of what sort of a percentage of the clergy we're talking about? 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 21, 2009, 08:38:58 PM
Quote
Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I'm sory ardmhacha it sounds like you're looking ways to defend the indefensible. 
I dont see how the church alerting the police to the abuse they've discovered would put the church at risk. 
Pints, again I was replying to someone who was blaming the Popes.  I am not seeking to defend what happened.  That would be stupid and wrong.

You do know that members of the clergy alerted the authorities at various times throughout the years and were ignored ?

In my opinion, highlighting the abuse at an earlier stage would have been the right thing to do.  It didn't happen like that so I am putting my own interpretation on it as to why that happened the way it did.
Fair enough, who knows why the church sat on it and I could buy that they didnt want it to get out as it would damage them (still unacceptable imo)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 08:44:28 PM
I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 21, 2009, 08:59:07 PM
I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.

Well obviously, I guess they thought attitudes would never change, that there would never be a day when such a report would be issued.

I'm truely ashamed of our previous generations, my mother was telling me there she mentioned the report to an aunt of hers - she must be near 90 - this morning and the aunt's response was "I wouldnt believe everything I hear".  Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:01:50 PM
I would go further than that pints and say that they definitely didn't want it to get out because they knew the damage it would do to the Church and people's trust in it, you know what too, they were right... not in what they did but what they thought.
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on May 21, 2009, 09:05:13 PM
The Church is at fault because it knew about sadistic brothers/ priests as well as the perverse ones, their response was either to ignore them or reassign them elsewhere. what the feck did they think ws going to happen at their new locations???? Guilty.

The State is at fault because not only did it fail to protect the most innocent of its citizens but it actually condemned thousands to lives scarred by sexual depravity and torture at the hands of those who should have been protecting them. Guilty.

The Church MUST come clean, 100% no matter the consequences once and for all.

The state must burden some of the financial and moral blame here, they must do what is right and they must make sure this never happens again.

God Bless those who have to live with the horror of this situation, we will never know the true numbers and it is to our eternal shame as a nation that this was allowed to go on in our Country unchecked.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on May 21, 2009, 09:15:22 PM
Quote
Do you not think he maybe decided that for the greater good it was better to say nothing, if he knew?
What in under f**k is this supposed to mean?
I have to agree. The 'greater good' comment is disgraceful. There is no greater good - there's right and wrong and it's that simple.
Tell me this Maguire, who are you to judge anyone?
I'm not judging anyone, merely commenting on someone else's opinion - this being a discussion board - that there may be a 'greater good' than defending children.

I don't believe there is a justifiably higher priority here than protecting the children. I think any attempts to do so are disgraceful.
Yes, you are judging.  You are judging me for one with your 'disgraceful' comment.

Put yourself in the shoes of the Pope (if he knew about it).  Others were criticising Popes and saying they were wrong and ultimately responsible.  To which I replied that maybe they had the greater good of the Church in mind.  I can't see how that would surprise even the most hardened Catholic Church hater.

I am not condoning those clergy who were involved just to be clear and I also believe they were very evil people who manipulated young people.
Call it judging if it makes you feel better. I said your comment was disgraceful - not you. But if that's judging you, then so be it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 09:31:31 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 09:44:16 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.


I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 21, 2009, 09:56:05 PM
With hindsight it seems that the cover up by both Vatican and State that allowed these monsters to continue destroying thousands of lives has has inflicted more damage to the Church. The Pope/Church hierarchy either thought the sexual/physical/psychological abuse was okay or else it felt that the victims presented an acceptable level of collateral damage to protect the image of the Church. Neither is acceptable.
You are getting close, surely you should have a viewing of Doubt. :)

Protecting the Priest was more of a priority for the Catholic Church than the protection of children. The priest has/had a much higher status in the hierarchial scheme of things. All members of the church, more or less subscribed to that hierarchy. Priests and Nuns are compelled to follow hierarchy above all else.
Maintaining the hierarchy was sacrosanct, no matter what the cost, even to the point of lying.
Knowledge of the extent of abuse is documented up to Cardinal level in the US, I don't know how far the paper trail goes to in Ireland.
The abuser priest just had to say sincere confession and do penance. According to the doctrine, that was sufficient.
Of course the internal discipline system was ridden with faults.


I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!
I liked Sleepers, it had a happy ending!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 21, 2009, 09:59:48 PM
Abuse was endemic. That is the key. It means than a lot more than a few bad apples were at the root of this. The report says the abuse was "systematic". I heard a story on RTE radio 1 this morning. It told of a new brother who started at one of these schools. He didn't like to beat the kids. The other brothers teased this guy and told him he'd have to get tough or the boys would think he was a sissy. One day he finally gave in and hammered the head of some young lad. He entered the staff room and got a standing ovation and cheers from the whole staff! This is sick and is not a few bad apples - this was the system.

Now there are those that say things have changed. Really? Lets look at what the report said about the christian brothers behaviour over the past 10 years. The report says they obstructed the investigation. Their apologies were always guarded and conditional. They claimed that 50% of the claims were lies and made for money. They sued the enquiry so that the commission can not name the names of the abusers. So where are the decent priests today within the christian brothers that will stand up and say I am a better man than this shitty corrupt self serving b**tard of an organisation. If I was a good man within this organisation I would walk, no question.

Prime time is on now and the haunting faces of little kids in black and white photos from these schools is staring out of the TV. Little kids of 4/5 yrs old. Just a little older than my own daughter. It sickens me to the pit of my stomach. Any of you who's first reaction is to lauch a defence of the church really need to take a look at yourselves.

Elections are coming up now. The tax payer is paying 1 billion euro to cover all these claims, the church gave 100 million I think. This needs to reversed and if it can't be legally then the government should refuse funding to any catholic church project until 1 billion is recouped. Maybe the vatican could sell of some of the gold that adorns their huge palaces to pay the bill. The same vatican that buried the dirty secrets of Irelands industrial schools deep in its vaults.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 21, 2009, 10:05:43 PM
Have spent the last couple of hours looking through the report, the most difficult piece I've ever had to read.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 21, 2009, 10:22:31 PM
One rotten b**tard made a lad who defecated eat his own shit - another b**tard made another lad who soiled himself and it got on to the brother's shoe made the young lad lick it off the sole of his shoe.


These b**tards were so perverted, so evil, so corrupt that it defies logic. Words can't describe the pian and suffering they caused.


Was listening to one man this morning who was getting the shite knocked out of him every day but who didn't mention anything to his mother when she visited every month - when asked why he said he didn't want to upset his mother more than she was already.

His crime ?? He stole a bicycle !
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 21, 2009, 10:32:17 PM
The levels of depravity shown in some stories are reminiscent of the behaviour of the Nazis towards Jews in the concentration camps. These people had evil coursing through their veins and had a peculiar way of spreading the Good News!

I feel genuine pity for anyone that had to endure a minute in the company of those b**tards.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 21, 2009, 11:41:11 PM
I just haven't the stomach for the likes of Doubt or the Magdalene Sisters. Will never see either of them but I remember that movie Sleepers made me so f**king cross that people would behave like that!
Doubt is not that type of film, I'm telling you, have a look, if after 20 minutes you don't like it, walk away.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 21, 2009, 11:51:34 PM
There will be no justice for victims, nor no meaningful change in the system, until a Bishop, Head of religious order, or government minister, is placed in the dock to account for their stewardship. Then and only then will justice be seen to be done.  Until that happens, nothing has changed. At the root of all of this is class. None of the abused come from upper or middle class backgrounds
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: armaghniac on May 22, 2009, 01:10:17 AM
Class is very relevant here, there wasn't much sign of this stuff in Blackrock College and no son of a judge or doctor was interfered with. These orders ran regular schools that contributed greatly to Irish education. In the past there was a "spare the rod and spoil the child" mentality and all schools had an element of violence about them. But if you attended a regular school and had a pretty positive experience it was natural to think that other schools run by the same order were similar, i.e. you might get the strap from time to time but you'd get a good education. Normal people could hardly imagine some of the sexual stuff. It is clear that there was two tier system in place, schools with orphans and industrial schools were run on entirely different principles. The perverts and paedophiles made sure to end up in these places where the culture allowed them do what they liked and where parents could not easily control them. But the administrators of these orders knew what was going on and allowed it continue to the eternal shame of the Catholic church.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 22, 2009, 07:44:33 AM
Quote
Was listening to one man this morning who was getting the shite knocked out of him every day but who didn't mention anything to his mother when she visited every month - when asked why he said he didn't want to upset his mother more than she was already. His crime ?? He stole a bicycle !

A neighbour of my wife's wrote a book about his experiences in Artane - The reason he ended up there was that his father died when he was quite young and his mother was left raising a few kids alone. A male relation , think it was an uncle, used call to the house on a regular enough basis to help out. Nothing going on with the young widow but a neighbour complained to the local PP re "immoral behaviour" etc and together with the local Sergeant the kids were taken off the woman and sent to these hell holes. This was in the 30s but gives an indication of the sort of atmosphere that existed.

How the people who perpertrated this abuse have not been named and ashamed in the public courts is beyond me.

Far from the ideals that Edmund Rice had when he set them up!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 09:31:37 AM
Jim, where is your criticism of the state?  The authorities knew all along what was going on and refused to do anything about it.  You can't only blame the Church if you are being even-handed about it.

If you read my posts you would see that the first line of my first post is that the state were utlimate responsible for what happened.  I couldn't be clearer about it. 

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 09:39:43 AM
The only way that there can be any sense of victims getting justice is by being adequately compensated, properly treated psychologically and each one of them getting a personal apology from the Church.


The government need to look again at the figure of € 127m that the church gave over - it should be 10 times this amount - thy can well afford it.


And finally, any priest, brother, bishop, cardinal, nun who was in any way complicit should come out and admit their guilt as there are still people in positions of authority who were complicit in all of this evil.


This last bit won't happen by the way.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 09:56:16 AM
The only way that there can be any sense of victims getting justice is by being adequately compensated, properly treated psychologically and each one of them getting a personal apology from the Church.

The government need to look again at the figure of € 127m that the church gave over - it should be 10 times this amount - thy can well afford it.

And finally, any priest, brother, bishop, cardinal, nun who was in any way complicit should come out and admit their guilt as there are still people in positions of authority who were complicit in all of this evil.

This last bit won't happen by the way.

As far as I know the Church has apologised numerous time, but a few other questions:

Why should the Church pay? If you were abused in a prison who wouldn't sue the prision but the State.

Besides the large amount of false claims, how would you decide who gets compensation? Would someone who was sexually abused and someone who got a clout around the ear get the same amount?

Most of the radio phone-ins I'm hearing relate mainly to verbal/emotional abuse and some 'beatings'. If you say those people should get compensation does that not also mean all of us over 35 who were beat at school by lay teachers should also get compensation? Should it stop there i.e. should everyone who was beaten by their parents not also get compensation?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:00:39 AM
The only way that there can be any sense of victims getting justice is by being adequately compensated, properly treated psychologically and each one of them getting a personal apology from the Church.

The government need to look again at the figure of € 127m that the church gave over - it should be 10 times this amount - thy can well afford it.

And finally, any priest, brother, bishop, cardinal, nun who was in any way complicit should come out and admit their guilt as there are still people in positions of authority who were complicit in all of this evil.

This last bit won't happen by the way.

As far as I know the Church has apologised numerous time, but a few other questions:

Why should the Church pay? If you were abused in a prison who wouldn't sue the prision but the State.

Besides the large amount of false claims, how would you decide who gets compensation? Would someone who was sexually abused and someone who got a clout around the ear get the same amount?

Most of the radio phone-ins I'm hearing relate mainly to verbal/emotional abuse and some 'beatings'. If you say those people should get compensation does that not also mean all of us over 35 who were beat at school by lay teachers should also get compensation? Should it stop there i.e. should everyone who was beaten by their parents not also get compensation?

Cos they've already paid - back then CHURCH = STATE. So both are paying except that the church has paid about 10% so far.

There's beating and then there were floggings with all sorts of perverted sideshows - bit of a difference.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:01:09 AM
The controversy sparked by the Ryan Commission's landmark findings turned political yesterday evening with the Minister for Education, Batt O'Keeffe, ruling out - for legal reasons - any renegotiation of the Catholic Church's liability to compensate survivors.

Minister O'Keeffe was responding to Opposition fury over the 2002 deal between his predecessor, Michael Woods, and the religious that looks set to land the orders with a tenth of the bill, with the taxpayer paying about €1bn.

However, Mr O'Keeffe also invited the Catholic congregations to consider shouldering more of the burden.

The Christian Brothers' responded that the deal was made in good faith and was the fairest that could have been struck seven years ago.

CORI, which facilitated the 18 Orders in making it, said it was not aware that any of them was planning a renegotiation.

Meanwhile, the Commission's unprecedented official confirmation that the religious institutionally abused tens of thousands of children after the courts locked them up in Catholic institutions has triggered a mounting cry for help from abuse victims.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:08:19 AM
Cos they've already paid - back then CHURCH = STATE. So both are paying except that the church has paid about 10% so far.

There's beating and then there were floggings with all sorts of perverted sideshows - bit of a difference.

The Church and State may have been connected but they didn't and don't share a common treasury or pot of money so to say the Church should pay more is just vindictive. The State was ultimately responsible for placing the children in these places and allowing the abuse to continue, so they are liable not the Church. The Church has paid 10% of the agreed compensation which is probably more than they've be forced to do by any court.

I don't get your second comment. There were beatings, floggings and everything in between, so are you saying everyone should get compensated? Does that include those who were beaten by lay teachers in schools?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 10:13:28 AM

Besides the large amount of false claims, how would you decide who gets compensation? Would someone who was sexually abused and someone who got a clout around the ear get the same amount?

Donagh,

There is already a board of redress set up to check the veracity of claims and decide appropriate payment. 

Why should the Church pay? If you were abused in a prison who wouldn't sue the prision but the State.

If the government must pay out compensation it has to come from somewhere.  Seeing as the government in essence had the church working for them (monies were received!) I think the state is perfectly entitled to seek financial input from the church.   Was this not the essence of the deal made by Michael Woods?    Given that records since found (for example the Christian Brother files that had been moved to Rome) indicate the church's knowledge of the crimes was much broader than conceeded at the time, I think the state need to revisit that agreement.

If taken via the courts, the church will have to pay and that has already been shown.

The principal vulnerability in the church's defence is that they moved this pricks around when they knew they had committed offences.  Most successful cases against them have hinged on that.   It is not the fact that the perpetrator was a church member but the fact that the church organisational helped that perpetrator.

The more worrying aspect is the fact the underlying issue in that behaviour (protection of reputation etc..) is still evident today.  Look at Cloyne earlier this year.......

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:16:46 AM
Cos they've already paid - back then CHURCH = STATE. So both are paying except that the church has paid about 10% so far.

There's beating and then there were floggings with all sorts of perverted sideshows - bit of a difference.

The Church and State may have been connected but they didn't and don't share a common treasury or pot of money so to say the Church should pay more is just vindictive. The State was ultimately responsible for placing the children in these places and allowing the abuse to continue, so they are liable not the Church. The Church has paid 10% of the agreed compensation which is probably more than they've be forced to do by any court.

I don't get your second comment. There were beatings, floggings and everything in between, so are you saying everyone should get compensated? Does that include those who were beaten by lay teachers in schools?


I'm saying there's a difference in getting a slap form a teacher and regular floggings.

The redress board can deal wth this.

The Church should pay more than 10% - thwy were responsible for most of it - ok the state was the organising body but as I said the state equalled the church back then. That's why 10% isn't enough. They've got maasive resources.


Look at what happened in the USA and how their claims of abuse were dealt with and how much the church there had to pay.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 22, 2009, 10:19:46 AM
To my mind the Christian Brothers should now voluntarily disband and all their assets sold and ring fenced into a victims fund to be administered via the redress board.

Unfortunately I think the "state's" involvement in all this will be understated and all the talk will be about the religious orders being made to pay etc. successive governments and departments to my mind are equally complicit as the orders but I don't think that message is getting out there. Oh and who was in power for the majority of this time - Any guesses???
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:23:05 AM

If the government must pay out compensation it has to come from somewhere.  Seeing as the government in essence had the church working for them (monies were received!) I think the state is perfectly entitled to seek financial input from the church.   Was this not the essence of the deal made by Michael Woods?    Given that records since found (for example the Christian Brother files that had been moved to Rome) indicate the church's knowledge of the crimes was much broader than conceeded at the time, I think the state need to revisit that agreement.

If taken via the courts, the church will have to pay and that has already been shown.

The principal vulnerability in the church's defence is that they moved this pricks around when they knew they had committed offences.  Most successful cases against them have hinged on that.   It is not the fact that the perpetrator was a church member but the fact that the church organisational helped that perpetrator.

The more worrying aspect is the fact the underlying issue in that behaviour (protection of reputation etc..) is still evident today.  Look at Cloyne earlier this year.......



The State sought input from the Church and it was given, I don't understand why people are now demanding they pay more, particularly now that things have changed. E100 million is a lot of cash for the Irish Church to pay over. More than adequate IMO.

Re Cloyne - Magee fecked up his administrative procedures and was forced to go. Rather than evidence that the Church is still trying to protect abusers, I would see Magee's removal as evidence that the Church has changed.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:25:47 AM

I'm saying there's a difference in getting a slap form a teacher and regular floggings.

The redress board can deal wth this.

The Church should pay more than 10% - thwy were responsible for most of it - ok the state was the organising body but as I said the state equalled the church back then. That's why 10% isn't enough. They've got maasive resources.


Look at what happened in the USA and how their claims of abuse were dealt with and how much the church there had to pay.

So are you now saying that the Church should pay because they've got the money regardless of who was liable? Okay if we run with that argument, do you have figures to support your claim that the Church has the money you claim they have?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:30:05 AM
To my mind the Christian Brothers should now voluntarily disband and all their assets sold and ring fenced into a victims fund to be administered via the redress board.

Unfortunately I think the "state's" involvement in all this will be understated and all the talk will be about the religious orders being made to pay etc. successive governments and departments to my mind are equally complicit as the orders but I don't think that message is getting out there. Oh and who was in power for the majority of this time - Any guesses???

Including their schools? What will happen to the students? How about the drug and alcohol centres? Youth centres? Community halls? In the current economic climate, who do you think will be buying these assets?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:31:14 AM

I'm saying there's a difference in getting a slap form a teacher and regular floggings.

The redress board can deal wth this.

The Church should pay more than 10% - thwy were responsible for most of it - ok the state was the organising body but as I said the state equalled the church back then. That's why 10% isn't enough. They've got maasive resources.


Look at what happened in the USA and how their claims of abuse were dealt with and how much the church there had to pay.

So are you now saying that the Church should pay because they've got the money regardless of who was liable? Okay if we run with that argument, do you have figures to support your claim that the Church has the money you claim they have?


Go to Land Registry, Belfast and look under Sean Brady for starters.

Ditto for Dublin.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:32:50 AM
Go to Land Registry, Belfast and look under Sean Brady for starters.

Ditto for Dublin.

Does that mean you don't have any figures?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:33:34 AM

If the government must pay out compensation it has to come from somewhere.  Seeing as the government in essence had the church working for them (monies were received!) I think the state is perfectly entitled to seek financial input from the church.   Was this not the essence of the deal made by Michael Woods?    Given that records since found (for example the Christian Brother files that had been moved to Rome) indicate the church's knowledge of the crimes was much broader than conceeded at the time, I think the state need to revisit that agreement.

If taken via the courts, the church will have to pay and that has already been shown.

The principal vulnerability in the church's defence is that they moved this pricks around when they knew they had committed offences.  Most successful cases against them have hinged on that.   It is not the fact that the perpetrator was a church member but the fact that the church organisational helped that perpetrator.

The more worrying aspect is the fact the underlying issue in that behaviour (protection of reputation etc..) is still evident today.  Look at Cloyne earlier this year.......



The State sought input from the Church and it was given, I don't understand why people are now demanding they pay more, particularly now that things have changed. E100 million is a lot of cash for the Irish Church to pay over. More than adequate IMO.

Re Cloyne - Magee fecked up his administrative procedures and was forced to go. Rather than evidence that the Church is still trying to protect abusers, I would see Magee's removal as evidence that the Church has changed.


It is - but it represents less than 10% - they were more than 10% responsible I'm sure you'd agree ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:34:04 AM
Go to Land Registry, Belfast and look under Sean Brady for starters.

Ditto for Dublin.

Does that mean you don't have any figures?


Don't have enough time this morning to work it out - sorry.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:36:37 AM
It is - but it represents less than 10% - they were more than 10% responsible I'm sure you'd agree ?

I've already said on this thread that individual priests were involved in dishing out the abuse but that State is liable because they were doing it on their behalf. The State and everyone else knew the abuse was happening and allowed it to continue and continued to send people to the industrial schools. This I believe makes the State liable.  
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:43:29 AM
It is - but it represents less than 10% - they were more than 10% responsible I'm sure you'd agree ?

I've already said on this thread that individual priests were involved in dishing out the abuse but that State is liable because they were doing it on their behalf. The State and everyone else knew the abuse was happening and allowed it to continue and continued to send people to the industrial schools. This I believe makes the State liable.  


Your argument is logical enough but I think you're wrong in that there was a very, very close relationship between church and state and that the church need to pay more than 10% - the fact that they paid anything at all shows that they had no option.

If you conducted a poll and asked people who was resonsible for this sacandal and who should pay, I reckon most people would say that it was the church who were mainly responsible and the state after that.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 10:53:39 AM
Your argument is logical enough but I think you're wrong in that there was a very, very close relationship between church and state and that the church need to pay more than 10% - the fact that they paid anything at all shows that they had no option.

If you conducted a poll and asked people who was resonsible for this sacandal and who should pay, I reckon most people would say that it was the church who were mainly responsible and the state after that.

Yeah but if you had an election in the morning the vast majority of people would still vote of either FF or FG despite these parties being on the take for decades. Doesn't say much for public opinion or polls.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 10:54:15 AM
I've already said on this thread that individual priests were involved in dishing out the abuse but that State is liable because they were doing it on their behalf.

Do you acknowledge that there is another issue in regard to the church's knowledge of abuse and their hiding/moving/not reporting these offenders?

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 10:56:55 AM
Read the piece in today's Irish News page 12 by Patrick Murphy about the abuse scandal and how it was inevitable given the relationship between church and state.





Also read on page 13 the "letter" of apology sent to an abuse victim who had taken a case against the De la Salle order and was compensated :


To whom it may concern :


The De la Salle Order was founded to care for abandoned, disadvantaged and deprived boys and regrets if any boy was abused while inder its care.

Br. Francis Manning,
Provincial.



Your analogy with the election in the morning is not a good one. You're out on a limb here I'm afraid - trying to defend the indefensible.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 22, 2009, 11:02:11 AM
It is - but it represents less than 10% - they were more than 10% responsible I'm sure you'd agree ?

I've already said on this thread that individual priests were involved in dishing out the abuse but that State is liable because they were doing it on their behalf. The State and everyone else knew the abuse was happening and allowed it to continue and continued to send people to the industrial schools. This I believe makes the State liable.  


Your argument is logical enough but I think you're wrong in that there was a very, very close relationship between church and state and that the church need to pay more than 10% - the fact that they paid anything at all shows that they had no option.

If you conducted a poll and asked people who was resonsible for this sacandal and who should pay, I reckon most people would say that it was the church who were mainly responsible and the state after that.


I added a poll there orangeman.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 11:07:52 AM
It is - but it represents less than 10% - they were more than 10% responsible I'm sure you'd agree ?

I've already said on this thread that individual priests were involved in dishing out the abuse but that State is liable because they were doing it on their behalf. The State and everyone else knew the abuse was happening and allowed it to continue and continued to send people to the industrial schools. This I believe makes the State liable.  


Your argument is logical enough but I think you're wrong in that there was a very, very close relationship between church and state and that the church need to pay more than 10% - the fact that they paid anything at all shows that they had no option.

If you conducted a poll and asked people who was resonsible for this sacandal and who should pay, I reckon most people would say that it was the church who were mainly responsible and the state after that.


I added a poll there orangeman.


Cheers.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 11:14:00 AM
Read the piece in today's Irish News page 12 by Patrick Murphy about the abuse scandal and how it was inevitable given the relationship between church and state.

Also read on page 13 the "letter" of apology sent to an abuse victim who had taken a case against the De la Salle order and was compensated :

To whom it may concern :

The De la Salle Order was founded to care for abandoned, disadvantaged and deprived boys and regrets if any boy was abused while inder its care.

Br. Francis Manning,
Provincial.

Your analogy with the election in the morning is not a good one. You're out on a limb here I'm afraid - trying to defend the indefensible.

How am I out on a limb? I agreed with your comment that most people would probably judge the Church to be responsible. I'm merely saying that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

I don't normally agree with ex-NIO mandarins but in this case Murphy is correct, this all stems from the privileged position given to the Church in the Irish State. I am a secularist when it comes to government, so I don't see how you can claim I'm trying to defend the Church. I'm not. I'm simply trying to point out that the problem lay with the State and the bastardised version of the 'Republic' established by DeValera which was a betrayal of everything hoped for in 1916 and Democratic Programme of the First Dáil.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 11:14:56 AM
Do you acknowledge that there is another issue in regard to the church's knowledge of abuse and their hiding/moving/not reporting these offenders?

Of course I do.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 11:33:36 AM
Read the piece in today's Irish News page 12 by Patrick Murphy about the abuse scandal and how it was inevitable given the relationship between church and state.

Also read on page 13 the "letter" of apology sent to an abuse victim who had taken a case against the De la Salle order and was compensated :

To whom it may concern :

The De la Salle Order was founded to care for abandoned, disadvantaged and deprived boys and regrets if any boy was abused while inder its care.

Br. Francis Manning,
Provincial.

Your analogy with the election in the morning is not a good one. You're out on a limb here I'm afraid - trying to defend the indefensible.

How am I out on a limb? I agreed with your comment that most people would probably judge the Church to be responsible. I'm merely saying that doesn't necessarily make them correct.

I don't normally agree with ex-NIO mandarins but in this case Murphy is correct, this all stems from the privileged position given to the Church in the Irish State. I am a secularist when it comes to government, so I don't see how you can claim I'm trying to defend the Church. I'm not. I'm simply trying to point out that the problem lay with the State and the bastardised version of the 'Republic' established by DeValera which was a betrayal of everything hoped for in 1916 and Democratic Programme of the First Dáil.

Fair enough but I reckon the Church should be made to stump up more - they're the ones that were doing the abusing - and the they had the cheek in certain places to take up collections in order to pay the victims of child abuse - what they did to the children was perverse but it's even more perverse asking the people to pay for their misdemeanours.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Stall the Bailer on May 22, 2009, 11:34:12 AM
Those who need to admit guilt to some degree of another are
The evil scum who carried out the horrid acts on the victims
The hierarchy of church who protected and covered up the offenders while do nothing for the victims.
The state, who protected the church and failed in their duty to the children of Ireland
Those involved with church and state who had suspicions but did nothing.
Anyone who didn’t believe the victims and could see no wrong in the church
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 11:35:21 AM
Do you acknowledge that there is another issue in regard to the church's knowledge of abuse and their hiding/moving/not reporting these offenders?

Of course I do.

And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 11:52:20 AM
And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 11:55:33 AM
And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 


Now you're taking the piss and having a laugh.  ;) You're on the wind here.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 12:06:27 PM
And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

If you came canvasing for SF to my door and came out with that shite SF would never get a vote from me again. Cop yourself on a bit Donagh. The absolute minimum the church should pay is half (500 million). I think they are liable for 3/4 at least. And if you read the report you'll see that the commission lays the majority of the blame at the door of the church. Since they are the ones that have spend 10 hard years compiliing it I take their word over anyone elses on it.

Agree with Declan in that the christian brothers are so disgraced by this that they should disband and transfer all assets to the state. There weasel worded apology means nothing now.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 12:28:11 PM
If you came canvasing for SF to my door and came out with that shite SF would never get a vote from me again. Cop yourself on a bit Donagh. The absolute minimum the church should pay is half (500 million). I think they are liable for 3/4 at least. And if you read the report you'll see that the commission lays the majority of the blame at the door of the church. Since they are the ones that have spend 10 hard years compiliing it I take their word over anyone elses on it.

Agree with Declan in that the christian brothers are so disgraced by this that they should disband and transfer all assets to the state. There weasel worded apology means nothing now.

Myles let's try to stick to the topic. You havn't addressed any of my points about liability.
Also, if you agree with Declan, perhaps you would like to address the questions I put regarding Church assets?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 12:44:37 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

In my opinion the schools, treatment centers etc in any country should be run by the government. All these buildings should be transferred to the government. A study would then need to take place on how these can be efficiently managed and which if any can be sold of. If the church, out of christain charity, still wish to help out in these facilities then fine. But the government should Vet every member of staff and appoint the manager of the school.

I don't have all the figures of the value of church assets, but I'd imagine they are worth quite a bit. I think there is also a case for the government to take a case against the vatican in europe if the catholic church in Ireland can't cough up the money.

In any case, it is the church that needs to figure out how to pay not me.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 22, 2009, 01:02:18 PM
Class is very relevant here, there wasn't much sign of this stuff in Blackrock College and no son of a judge or doctor was interfered with. These orders ran regular schools that contributed greatly to Irish education. In the past there was a "spare the rod and spoil the child" mentality and all schools had an element of violence about them. But if you attended a regular school and had a pretty positive experience it was natural to think that other schools run by the same order were similar, i.e. you might get the strap from time to time but you'd get a good education. Normal people could hardly imagine some of the sexual stuff. It is clear that there was two tier system in place, schools with orphans and industrial schools were run on entirely different principles. The perverts and paedophiles made sure to end up in these places where the culture allowed them do what they liked and where parents could not easily control them. But the administrators of these orders knew what was going on and allowed it continue to the eternal shame of the Catholic church.
Those institutions are a separate case, imo. Whatever passed for scrutiny outside those institution was suspended inside.
In general, abuse of children was widespread enough outside of those institutions to go across what you refer to as class boundaries. What determines the process of selection of a victim by an abuser is an intricate matter.
We have become well aware of serious abuse incidents right across the social spectrum inflicted by abusers from a wide range of "trusted" professions.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 01:26:51 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

In my opinion the schools, treatment centers etc in any country should be run by the government. All these buildings should be transferred to the government. A study would then need to take place on how these can be efficiently managed and which if any can be sold of. If the church, out of christain charity, still wish to help out in these facilities then fine. But the government should Vet every member of staff and appoint the manager of the school.

I don't have all the figures of the value of church assets, but I'd imagine they are worth quite a bit. I think there is also a case for the government to take a case against the vatican in europe if the catholic church in Ireland can't cough up the money.

In any case, it is the church that needs to figure out how to pay not me.


But the abusers were caring for these children on behalf of the State. Why do you want to punish the modern Church despite all of the good they are doing and not the State?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 22, 2009, 01:31:32 PM
Quote
Also, if you agree with Declan, perhaps you would like to address the questions I put regarding Church assets?

I would make a distinction between the Christian Brothers and the  "church" in this regard. Re the schools ,if the lands and buildings are still owned by the brothers then they should be taken off them and initially put into trust/state ownership. Re community centres/outreach facilities etc - how many are now actually run by the brothers? So an audit of assets facilities etc to be carried out and then a plan put in place to sell/reallocate etc to appropriate organisations/causes.

I genuinely believe that the brothers should be disbanded and if not voluntarily I think there is a case for making them a proscribed organisation based on the abuse they perpetrated on the weakest and vulnerable of society. I'm not sure of the current numbers but if they want to join another religious organisation or set up a new order etc let them do that but not as it is currently constituted.

From reading the reports and listening to people it's obvious to me that the victims feel that the guilty parties here i.e orders and the institutional church - haven't contributed enough either by way of apology or recompense and there is a valid argument to be made to revisit the agreement made by Woods with them.

Of course given our governments record in looking after the welfare of the people I have no great faith in our ability as a country to do any better in providing services for any of our citizens.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 22, 2009, 01:42:27 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

How many Bishop's mansions have you been in Myles? You are all talk - back up your claims with facts lad or keep them to yourself.
The Arch Bishop's house in Armagh beside the Cathedral could be described as a mansion.  It also contains offices for 6 or more administrative staff as well as several other offices for various roles within the Diocese.  This house/office is in a key position next to the Church and needs to remain there.

The Church does own a lot of land - but how many Churches are you going to knock down and how many graves are you going to overturn to get what you want?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lazer on May 22, 2009, 01:59:16 PM
And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 


Now you're taking the piss and having a laugh.  ;) You're on the wind here.

Throwing money to the victims is not the solution to this.
Which do you think the victims would prefer
1) Money
2) Justice

What should be done is for any individuals who either commited the acts, or covered them up should be taken to court and made to face justice

I do not see what can be gained from the modern church or the state taking responsibity - they should publically apologise for all the abuse caused by their pre-deceasers and fully commit themselves to providing whatever help they can with any legal proceedings.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 22, 2009, 02:03:34 PM
Just to show how our attitudes have changed  >:(

High-risk children given ‘cheapest’ care

By Jennifer Hough

Friday, May 22, 2009

HIGH-RISK children are being put on waiting lists or placed "in the cheapest option" of care by the HSE, a leading residential service provider has claimed.

Paula Kane, manager of Ashdale Care, a group of private care homes to which the HSE refers children, said she had kept quiet for too long and did not want to see mistakes of the past repeated due to what she called an "alleged lack of funding".

Ms Kane claimed that:

The HSE was "playing down" risk assessments so placements would not be required.

Some children were not being placed at all and were left in high risk and potentially dangerous situations.

High risk referrals are being put on waiting lists.

The social worker said the situation was at crisis point, and she hoped speaking out would help frontline HSE staff who were working with impossible caseloads.

"Things are really going backwards. It is clear that those in the HSE who are charged with making decisions about the welfare of children and adolescents are making decisions purely on financial grounds," she said.

Children as young as 12, Ms Kane said, were being advised they could no longer stay in placements because the HSE has no money, and placements sometimes ended overnight.

She said teenagers from age 16 were being moved from long term placements into bed and breakfasts.

"These young people have suffered significantly and are being left unsupported in these establishments – which are unregulated – with no trained professional staff." Although foster placements were over-crowded, foster carers were being offered more money to take children because it is a cheaper alternative to residential care, she claimed.

A spokesperson for the HSE said everything it does was "tightly focused on meeting the needs of children in care, and that in the current climate this needed to be done in a cost effective way".

"We are currently putting together a tender to procure residential placements in the private sector, if and when they are required."

Norah Givens, from Barnardos, said the charity has heard anecdotal evidence that decisions were being taken to remove children from expensive facilities, and is was extremely concerned about this.

"Some children are not suitable for foster care and receive very good residential care. It would be shocking to think that children were being moved around because of financial situation."

Read more: "| Irish Examiner" - http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/highrisk-children-given-cheapest-care-92381.html#ixzz0GEwQK6KC&A
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 02:17:01 PM
Jim
I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 

Donagh,

This is where I cannot agree:

1.  On the basic issue of the acts of abuse, I can see your argument as to ultimate responsibility lying with the state.  I don't agree with your analysis as I think the state have a right to recoup the compensation, particularly from those orders that received payment from the government for their services.

2.  The issue of protection of know offenders, the half-truths (and outright lies), the moving of suspects etc... is soley the responsiblity of the church and nobody else.  I expect a lot more than a nominal gesture, financial or otherwise.  I am afraid I have yet to see that.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 02:18:22 PM
Did the state PAY the orders / institutions for looking after the children ?????
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 22, 2009, 02:24:33 PM
Did the state PAY the orders / institutions for looking after the children ?????

Most congregations were paid a captitation grant per child.

The comission determined that grants were sufficient for child needs but that funds were diverted to other uses by the congregations involved.

EDIT: Todays Indo:

http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/children-used-as-a-cash-crop-by-schools-1747689.html (http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/children-used-as-a-cash-crop-by-schools-1747689.html)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 22, 2009, 02:51:59 PM
On the subject of the Indo, did anyone see Eoghan Harris on the telly last night? Apparently he is convinced all the child abusers were ardent nationalists and that this only happened because Ireland left the British Empire.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 22, 2009, 02:55:10 PM
Quote
On the subject of the Indo, did anyone see Eoghan Harris on the telly last night? Apparently he is convinced all the child abusers were ardent nationalists and that this only happened because Ireland left the British Empire.

Didn't see muppet Harris but maybe this was his pseudonym this morning in the Times!

Madam, – The War of Independence ushered in a reign of terror for children who were poor, abandoned or from family circumstances which did not conform to a semi-fascist ideal. Would their lives have been as wretched had the entire island remained under British control? I doubt it. – Yours, etc,

SHEELAGH MORRIS,

Shankill,

Co Dublin.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: armaghniac on May 22, 2009, 03:49:46 PM
Quote
Apparently he is convinced all the child abusers were ardent nationalists and that this only happened because Ireland left the British Empire.

On the contrary the British Empire were responsible for much of this. The Irish Catholic church was formed in the second part of the 19th century as a conservative institution with Victorian values. The church obtained excessive influence because it was seen as being Irish in response to the colonial government. Catholic education became predominant because 19th century State education was distrusted because it pedalled colonial values, as it still does in the 6 counties. With the foundation of the State a much more secular approach was possible, but almost all the non Catholics seized the northern part of the country for their own use, reinforcing the "national" aspect of Catholicism and making all the harder for the State to get control over things. Not that this excuses them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Roger on May 22, 2009, 04:15:32 PM
I wondered when the Brits would be implicated  ::)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 04:22:10 PM
I wondered when the Brits would be implicated  ::)

b**tards - it was their fault all along.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 22, 2009, 04:46:50 PM
I knew it and people blaming those poor nuns and priests and brothers
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

How many Bishop's mansions have you been in Myles? You are all talk - back up your claims with facts lad or keep them to yourself.
The Arch Bishop's house in Armagh beside the Cathedral could be described as a mansion.  It also contains offices for 6 or more administrative staff as well as several other offices for various roles within the Diocese.  This house/office is in a key position next to the Church and needs to remain there.

The Church does own a lot of land - but how many Churches are you going to knock down and how many graves are you going to overturn to get what you want?

I don't have to be in them to see them. Everyone I've seen is a large house, many of which used to belong to our ancestors British landlords. I tell you what - lad - why don't you name a house that a bishop lives in that is say less than 1500 sq ft or maybe with a value less than €200k?? You know, the type of house the great unwashed live in. And who said anything about knocking churches or disrespecting the dead by overturning graves. Thats cheap coming in defence of people that buried little kids in unmarked graves in their industrial schools, not a headstone in sight and not an explanation in site. Why don't you go and develop some integrity.


Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 05:10:58 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

In my opinion the schools, treatment centers etc in any country should be run by the government. All these buildings should be transferred to the government. A study would then need to take place on how these can be efficiently managed and which if any can be sold of. If the church, out of christain charity, still wish to help out in these facilities then fine. But the government should Vet every member of staff and appoint the manager of the school.

I don't have all the figures of the value of church assets, but I'd imagine they are worth quite a bit. I think there is also a case for the government to take a case against the vatican in europe if the catholic church in Ireland can't cough up the money.

In any case, it is the church that needs to figure out how to pay not me.


But the abusers were caring for these children on behalf of the State. Why do you want to punish the modern Church despite all of the good they are doing and not the State?

I punish the church because they ran the schools, beat the children, raped the children, tortured the children and covered it all up and buried evidence in the vatican. Some sections obstructed the investigation. I blame the church because an independent enquiry that lasted 10 years found them to shoulder most of the blame. I am punishing the church because they deserve it. The taxpayer does not deserve it. BTW - the MODERN christian brothers sued the the commission to prevent them naming these brutes. The MODERN christian brothers obstructed the investigation. I know some of ye have deep affiliation with the church and may find this all very hard to accept but the facts are out at last out in daylight and there is no spinning it into anything other than what it is.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 05:12:00 PM
The poll is interesting. Only 1 person reckons the state alone should pay !
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 05:15:23 PM
And do you acknowledge that they have a financial liability here?  and if so is that adequately covered by their contribution to the redress fund?

Jim I think I've already said previously that I think they have a liability and the E100 million is more than adequate. Considering everything the Church does and continues to do for the good of Irish society, I'd probably suggest that a more appropriate figure would be a nominal E1, with the rest being picked up by those most liable, the State. There are many faults within the Irish Church, particularly with the Bishops, but IMO opinion the vast majority of Priests do an invaluable job and they should not be penalised for the sins of their predecessors. 




Now you're taking the piss and having a laugh.  ;) You're on the wind here.

Throwing money to the victims is not the solution to this.
Which do you think the victims would prefer
1) Money
2) Justice

What should be done is for any individuals who either commited the acts, or covered them up should be taken to court and made to face justice

I do not see what can be gained from the modern church or the state taking responsibity - they should publically apologise for all the abuse caused by their pre-deceasers and fully commit themselves to providing whatever help they can with any legal proceedings.

The money has already been agreed. 65k per victim or something along those lines - coming to a total of €1 billion. The question of who pays this has already been agreed. The church pays 10%, the state pays 90%. This is one of the most disgraceful deals ever signed off by an irish government. It needs to be renegotiated and if that can't be done then the taxpayer should not be expected to pay one cent to the catholic church for anything again. Justice would be nice except the commission is not allowed to name the evil b**tards due to a legal challenge by the CB as I said earlier. Does that mean that the church is interested in justice for their victims?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Evil Genius on May 22, 2009, 05:19:48 PM
On the contrary the British Empire were responsible for much of this.

Q. "So tell me, Sister, why did you beat this little girl? And you, Father, why did you molest that other boy?"

A. "It was the Brits made us do it..."

Were this not such an appalling, distressing and sad story all round, Armaghniac's post could almost have made me laugh.

Anyhow, having desisted from commenting for a number of reasons, I suppose I might as well add my tuppence-worth.

As I see it, the people primarily responsible for this scandal are those who beat and abused the children given to their care. I cannot see any excuse for them. Consequently, I can conceive of no good reason why all the suspected perpetrators are not facing criminal charges - after all, the identity of the majority MUST be known to the Church authorities and/or the State.

Thereafter, the question of compensation arises. Of course, money can never adequately compensate the victims, or give them back their lost childhoods etc. But quite aside from the comfort it may bring in practical terms (counselling and treatment for their mental and physical ailments, depression, drug dependancy and alcoholism etc), it must also be highly symbolic for the victims as a means of proving that Society takes their plight seriously, and is determined to make the abusers pay (literally).

Which leaves the question of exactly who should pay this compensation, and how much etc. Clearly the individual abusers are unlikely to be especially wealthy (though many who would abuse their position over matters like this, might also have been tempted to abuse it in financial affairs as well, so should be forced to pay, if they have it.)

The main donor (imo) should, therefore, be the Church, since it was the Church which "employed" the abusers, and to an extent protected them. Moreover, the Church benefited directly itself from agreeing to "look after" these children, so it would only be right that as much of this money as possible should be redistributed to their victims as possible. Of course, many of the "assets" of the Church will not be realisable - eg. churches and graveyards etc. But where, for instance, the church owns schools and hospitals which it runs on behalf of the State, these properties should imo be handed over in lieu of the (90%) compensation already being paid by the State.

Which finally brings us to the position of the State itself. As many have pointed out, their hands are hardly clean on all of this either i.e. they were seeking to abdicate their responsibility for these children when they willingly handed them over to the care of Institutions which at best, they declined to regulate, and at worst knew (or should have known) were abusing children.

However, it should not be a case of "either/or" between Church and State when determining responsibilty. As I see it the Church should be held accountable for what it did (sins of commission) AND the State should be held accountable for what it did not do (sins of omission).

How one apportions that responsibility in financial terms is a decision for wiser and more informed people than me, but if I had to guess, it might be something like 50:50?

But whichever way the bill is divided up, one thing strikes me as absolutely crucial, and that is the need to provide Justice to the victims, so that they may finally be persuaded that they are now believed and sympathised with. But I cannot see how that will ever happen so long as the abusers are knowingly being allowed to maintain their anonymity and escape prosecution in the Courts.

For unless that issue is addressed, then that for me will be the greatest scandal of this whole sordid and sorry affair.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 22, 2009, 06:19:24 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

How many Bishop's mansions have you been in Myles? You are all talk - back up your claims with facts lad or keep them to yourself.
The Arch Bishop's house in Armagh beside the Cathedral could be described as a mansion.  It also contains offices for 6 or more administrative staff as well as several other offices for various roles within the Diocese.  This house/office is in a key position next to the Church and needs to remain there.

The Church does own a lot of land - but how many Churches are you going to knock down and how many graves are you going to overturn to get what you want?

I don't have to be in them to see them. Everyone I've seen is a large house, many of which used to belong to our ancestors British landlords. I tell you what - lad - why don't you name a house that a bishop lives in that is say less than 1500 sq ft or maybe with a value less than €200k?? You know, the type of house the great unwashed live in. And who said anything about knocking churches or disrespecting the dead by overturning graves. Thats cheap coming in defence of people that buried little kids in unmarked graves in their industrial schools, not a headstone in sight and not an explanation in site. Why don't you go and develop some integrity.
Where have I not shown integrity? Please point out some examples if you will.

Of course these houses are worth money.  Most towns and villages in urban areas grew up organically around the Church.  Obviously the Bishops house (beside the Church) and the ground the Church is on itself is going to be worth money.  I don't understand your point.  What would you ahve the Church do?
The same can be said for rural areas.  My own townland/parish grew organically around the Church.  The Priest's house is next door.  Of course it is right in the middle of the parish and on prime land.  This would be true of most churches from most denominations.  What would you have the Church do?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 06:30:52 PM
Every bishop in this country is living in a mansion, on their own. Transfer them to the state and sell them off to the highest bidder. Church can find a more modest home for the bishop.

How many Bishop's mansions have you been in Myles? You are all talk - back up your claims with facts lad or keep them to yourself.
The Arch Bishop's house in Armagh beside the Cathedral could be described as a mansion.  It also contains offices for 6 or more administrative staff as well as several other offices for various roles within the Diocese.  This house/office is in a key position next to the Church and needs to remain there.

The Church does own a lot of land - but how many Churches are you going to knock down and how many graves are you going to overturn to get what you want?

I don't have to be in them to see them. Everyone I've seen is a large house, many of which used to belong to our ancestors British landlords. I tell you what - lad - why don't you name a house that a bishop lives in that is say less than 1500 sq ft or maybe with a value less than €200k?? You know, the type of house the great unwashed live in. And who said anything about knocking churches or disrespecting the dead by overturning graves. Thats cheap coming in defence of people that buried little kids in unmarked graves in their industrial schools, not a headstone in sight and not an explanation in site. Why don't you go and develop some integrity.
Where have I not shown integrity? Please point out some examples if you will.

Of course these houses are worth money.  Most towns and villages in urban areas grew up organically around the Church.  Obviously the Bishops house (beside the Church) and the ground the Church is on itself is going to be worth money.  I don't understand your point.  What would you ahve the Church do?
The same can be said for rural areas.  My own townland/parish grew organically around the Church.  The Priest's house is next door.  Of course it is right in the middle of the parish and on prime land.  This would be true of most churches from most denominations.  What would you have the Church do?

I would have the church pay minimum 50% of damages. If they don't have the cash then they should sell off some of their assets or even better get the cash from the vatican. Of course the church building and graveyards would be the last thing on the list but the bishops big house would be the 1st
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 22, 2009, 06:48:19 PM
I have just read through the whole thread and I have to say it is sad to see the grip the Church still to this day has on some of the posters.

The report has described the abuse as 'endemic' within these Catholic institutions. There is no getting away from this.

I cannot believe the amount of posters who feel the need everytime they condemn the abuse to qualify their statements by either sharing the blame or making sure to reiterate that there are many 'good' priests also.

Yes, this will be used as a stick to beat the Church with. It's quite a big f**king stick, so be it and rightly so.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 22, 2009, 06:48:27 PM
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/html%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland%20(Eng)Nov2004.htm

A link to the Irish Constitution, could those saying that the Irish State has no need to pay anything in the compensation of the victims of this explain to me who is supposed to enforce the Constitution?

Passing the whole buck to the church doesn't sit well when govt ministers came out with responses that "an investigation would serve no meaningful purpose".

I'd also suggest that justice would be of more satisfaction than compensation. Why should these criminals be allowed go to the gave with their names untarnished? In the last couple of weeks we saw a 92 year old Nazi war criminal extradited from the US to face war crimes in Europe, I'd like to see these criminals face charges.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 22, 2009, 06:52:15 PM
I would have the church pay minimum 50% of damages. If they don't have the cash then they should sell off some of their assets or even better get the cash from the vatican. Of course the church building and graveyards would be the last thing on the list but the bishops big house would be the 1st

My point is people are throwing out these ideas about how the Church should pay without thinking it through.
Yes something needs to be done.  Yes the Church has to be held accountable.  Yes people have and continue to suffer and there needs to be justice.
I don't think selling off land around a parish center is the answer.  I for one do not need a McDonalds on the way out of Mass or a Tesco's next door.

Let's come up with some realistic options and ideas instead of fanciful nonsense that will not solve anything.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 22, 2009, 09:04:19 PM
Tell me Iceman, where are the church getting the 128 million that they have already committed to pay? You seem to be implying that raising this type of money is Fanciful nonsense. The only thing that is nonsense is that the tax payer in the 26 counties pays for the crimes of the church to the tune of 1 billion euro. It just shows how far the tentacles of the church reach when people can here what is in this report and then come up with all sorts of reasons why the church should not pay. We don't want McDonalds near the church?!, all the churches good work etc etc. I don't care about the churches "good" work. I care about justice. I care that we the taxpayer do not pay for the churches crimes.

Now lets assume that the protestant church was responsible for this disgrace. Ask yourselves would ye all be so reasonable towards that church. Would ye f**k!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 22, 2009, 11:18:17 PM
A local parish here was renovating the church here recently - the renovation cost was £2.5m - they asked the parishioners and got £5m on the basis that they had "other" things to spend the money on.

This is just one parish - albeit a large enough parish. Imagine if the whole diocese or the whole country were to renovate all their chapels !!


I know quite elderly people who after the report came out yesterday have sadly decided that going to chapel is no longer attractive.

They'll probably change their mind but for them not to go to chapel is massive and it demonstrates the enormity of the report having been confirmed and made public.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 23, 2009, 10:36:09 AM
Tell me Iceman, where are the church getting the 128 million that they have already committed to pay? You seem to be implying that raising this type of money is Fanciful nonsense. The only thing that is nonsense is that the tax payer in the 26 counties pays for the crimes of the church to the tune of 1 billion euro. It just shows how far the tentacles of the church reach when people can here what is in this report and then come up with all sorts of reasons why the church should not pay. We don't want McDonalds near the church?!, all the churches good work etc etc. I don't care about the churches "good" work. I care about justice. I care that we the taxpayer do not pay for the churches crimes.

Now lets assume that the protestant church was responsible for this disgrace. Ask yourselves would ye all be so reasonable towards that church. Would ye f**k!

agree with that, should be at least 50:50.  Where is the church meant to get their money? Their problem.  Have the vatican sell a couple of their assets and they should have no trouble raising the cash. The Irish governnment/Irish tax payer can hardly afford what they're expected to pay either.

That said what I'd imagine the victims want is justice, I've yet to hear a reason why these c***ts (still living) can't be prosecuted and the c***ts already burning in hell (hopefully) can't be named. 
If they're not prosecuted then that's just another kick in the teeth for the victims and shows that society hasn't changed an awful lot!

As fro the brothers, have them f**k off.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: SLIGONIAN on May 23, 2009, 11:50:08 AM
Article from Independant.ie

So, here's the deal. It's the 1970s. You lie awake at night, afraid to go to sleep in case they come and get you.

Not the bogey man, because you'd like to believe you're too old for such things (although that doesn't stop you staring at that strange shadow on the ceiling and fervently wishing it would go away) but rather the people from the Madonna House.

They come at night, you're told, and take away bold boys and bring them to the orphanage where they don't treat bold boys very well...

So, here's the deal. It's the 1980s. Your coach warns you and your team mates not to allow yourself to be left alone in the dressing room with a particular member of staff. Why? "You don't want to find out" is the not very enigmatic answer before the conversation is quickly changed ...

As Ireland and, indeed Britain, Europe and America reads some of the details of the Ryan Report and tries its best not to vomit with disgust, we should ask ourselves this question -- why were the vast majority of the citizens of this state prepared to allow the Catholic Church to work as a huge paedophile ring? Were people so cowed by their fear of a belt of the crozier that they were prepared to allow our children become beaten, battered catamites?

There are times when we all feel proud to be Irish. This happened perhaps most recently when England received such a warm reception in Croke Park, proving to the world, but most importantly to ourselves, that we had indeed grown up, even if only ever so slightly.

But the converse to that is that there are times when it is appropriate to feel a collective sense of shame; a feeling of gross and nauseating self-loathing.

Because the Ryan Report only articulates in gruesome, graphic detail what we all knew -- these b**tards were allowed to get away with what they did because nobody, or at least not enough people, stepped in to call a halt.

Forget about the sickening, mealy mouthed apologies from politicians, forget about the deranged, defensive rantings of Catholic fundamentalists -- most of whom seem to spend their time banging off angry, paranoid screeds to journalists claiming that there was never any abuse and it's all an anti-Catholic plot -- forget about the rest of the talking heads talking rubbish.

Let's get one thing straight -- everyone knew what was going on.

And how can such a sweeping statement be made with confidence? Well, ask yourself this -- why were places like the Madonna House, Artane, Letterfrack and so many others used as an alternative to the bogey man to put manners on kids?

The fact that such dire warnings could ever be given, even though they weren't meant with malice, shows just how widespread awareness of these places was. After all, you don't threaten kids by warning them that if they don't behave you're going to bring them to the circus.

As a people, we lied to ourselves then and if we don't confront the collective responsibility we bear towards the victims then we're lying to ourselves now.

Journalism, for example, should hold its head in shame for its complicity in these crimes.

Stories of suppressed articles, veiled threats and outright censorship abound in every newsroom -- how disgraceful it is that the one industry which is meant to dedicate itself to lifting the lid on society's wrongs should effectively help to nail that lid even tighter shut.

That the Fourth Estate should be so in thrall to the Church is particularly nauseating.

For instance, when one journalist was threatened with rape by the then powerful Bishop Comiskey, she sat on that rather pertinent piece of information for more than a decade, then wrote about it when Comiskey was a disgraced, shambling alcoholic and the Church had become irrelevant. It was a classically cowardly case of too little, too late.

If that incident had been reported when it happened, it would have shaken the Church to its core. Instead, when it was published, it was just another story of clerical depravity delivered to a public which had grown weary of such revelations. We let down thousands of victims back then and we're still letting them down.

There are 800 people who are now categorically guilty of rape, violence, buggery and torture, yet not one of these degenerates has been named.

That means there are an awful lot of people who like to rape and terrorise small children. And it means they are free to walk the streets with their good name intact, while the people whose lives they have ruined stand impotently by, with the full knowledge that the State has as much contempt for them now as they did back then.

Generations of disposable, broken children have now become generations of disposable, broken adults who know that their worst childhood fears have been confirmed -- they really are, in the eyes of the Church that abused them and the system that allowed it to happen, devoid of value.

Surely, if we are to try and properly apologise and however belatedly make amends to these people who must, every day for the rest of their lives, re-live the torment they endured, then we need to start seeing prosecutions.

And we need to start making the Church hurt for what it did.

While there is undoubtedly a wider, collective burden of responsibility in our complicity to these crimes, they were carried out on Church-run premises by Church employees. And, when exposed, they were protected by the Church.

If any other organisation in the world had been guilty of such protracted and systemic abuse then heads would have rolled. A lot of them.

Instead, we can look forward to more mealy mouthed bullshit: "profound regret", "deep sadness" and all the usual meaningless, smug platitudes which pour from the mouths of senior clergy, here and in Rome, like so much sewage from a pipe.

Truly, this a time to be ashamed to be Irish.


You know I dont know how the victims felt or cant imagine, I just admire there courage to still be here and getting on which ever way they can, what would heal those wounds most, i would say justice, Well why then is there none? Why cant we arrest them now, why isnt there a couple 100,000 people marching down the dail demanding that these scum be thrown in jail? Why? 3 things, Jail, Proper Apology, I swear to God if this happened me and theprinicipal apology said, sorry IF any boys were abused >:(, I would of _____ him.; and massive compensation in that order.

Why are we now accepting the outcome of this report? Force the politions to do something...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 23, 2009, 11:59:39 AM
Did anyone watch the 'discussion' on the Late Late show last night?

I kept turning over expecting it to be mentioned at some stage, sure enough the LAST 20 mins was devoted to the biggest story of the decade in Ireland.

Thought Pat tip-toed around the big issues a bit, had a priest on who agreed constantly with every point of view to seem as if the catholic church has all changed.  The man was bad with his nerves. The panel spent much of the time trying to find some sort of justification as to WHY these clergy behaved in this way. One reason being young men at 12-13 brought into the Brothers who were abused by older ones, and then they in turn carried on the abuse.  They even went on about the famine and suppressed sexuality post-famine, I was watching it thinking speak about the big issue hear of accountability + justice for victims and what should happen now!

They spoke to a woman in the audience who spoke very powerfully saying she was sad there was only men on the panel, sad there was no representative from Christian Brothers, and spoke of the victims reliving their abuse by being asked at their redress meetings what 'size' their sexual abuser was.  The whole story is just so shocking, I am ashamed of the catholic church now and whilst I really like/respect my parish priest I find it hard to bring myself to go back to Mass (I don't go every week anyway) and listen to him telling us how we should live.  DON'T live in sin....DON'T have sex before marriage etc.  Surely older priests who were not involved in this, still knew what was going on.  If they were the majority why didn't they stand up and be counted and overthrow this regime??  Where was our Primate of Ireland Sean Brady last night, surely this was an opportunity for him to speak out to the people?

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 23, 2009, 12:13:26 PM
And we wonder why this happened - Have a read of this letter to the Times for an inkling into the mentality that allowed it to happen

Madam, – In the wake of the report concerning the child abuse suffered by many in the industrial schools and similar institutions run by Christian Brothers and nuns, much opprobrium has been heaped on the various religious orders because of their alleged involvement in abuse.

Granted, there was abuse, but please spare a thought for the countless thousands of honourable decent Brothers and nuns who are now being tarred with the same brush.

No one knows what really happened in those institutions. Many of those accused (though unnamed) are now dead and they cannot defend themselves.

I do know, and I’m sure many other people know, that the majority of the boys who were sent to those institutions were the thugs of their era. That is why they ended up there. In many cases they were from broken homes and the trauma they suffered probably resulted in their anti-social behaviour. I am not attempting to make a case for the few religious or lay thugs who took advantage of their vulnerability, but I amening to see the religious orders beiequally stating that it is quite sickng pilloried today.

The sight of the congregational leader of the Sisters of Mercy, almost in tears, having to apologise on national television for the sins of a few of her order (probably all deceased) was most appalling. That good lady was in no way responsible for any wrongdoing and I feel a solicitor might have been employed to make such a statement.


ART KAVANAGH,

Emerald Cottages,

Dublin 4.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 23, 2009, 12:16:51 PM
agree with that, should be at least 50:50.  Where is the church meant to get their money? Their problem.  Have the vatican sell a couple of their assets and they should have no trouble raising the cash. The Irish governnment/Irish tax payer can hardly afford what they're expected to pay either.

That said what I'd imagine the victims want is justice, I've yet to hear a reason why these c***ts (still living) can't be prosecuted and the c***ts already burning in hell (hopefully) can't be named. 
If they're not prosecuted then that's just another kick in the teeth for the victims and shows that society hasn't changed an awful lot!

As fro the brothers, have them f**k off.

It isn't that they can't be prosecuted, there has to be a trial. They can't be named unless there is a trial.

What has money got to do with justice in these abuse cases?
Have not people got their heads twisted back to front by this lawyer compensation culture?
The compensation is a process of fobbing off the victims in the absence of justice.
It is also a process by which the legal profession take their huge slice.

If people actually listened to what the victims  of abuse wanted,  instead of this insanity that money cures all.
The abused wanted justice. This report,  ten long years in the making, is only a part of this justice.
Justice is a process,  a big part of that process  is where the  victims can testify in open court, face to face with their abuser (even if the abuser pleads guilty).
Looks like we have been doing hoola hoops and bribery in order to avoid justice.


Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 23, 2009, 12:22:50 PM
agree with that, should be at least 50:50.  Where is the church meant to get their money? Their problem.  Have the vatican sell a couple of their assets and they should have no trouble raising the cash. The Irish governnment/Irish tax payer can hardly afford what they're expected to pay either.

That said what I'd imagine the victims want is justice, I've yet to hear a reason why these c***ts (still living) can't be prosecuted and the c***ts already burning in hell (hopefully) can't be named. 
If they're not prosecuted then that's just another kick in the teeth for the victims and shows that society hasn't changed an awful lot!

As fro the brothers, have them f**k off.

It isn't that they can't be prosecuted, there has to be a trial. They can't be named unless there is a trial.

What has money got to do with justice in these abuse cases?
Have not people got their heads twisted back to front by this lawyer compensation culture?
The compensation is a process of fobbing off the victims in the absence of justice.
It is also a process by which the legal profession take their huge slice.

If people actually listened to what the victims  of abuse wanted,  instead of this insanity that money cures all.
The abused wanted justice. This report,  ten long years in the making, is only a part of this justice.
Justice is a process,  a big part of that process  is where the  victims can testify in open court, face to face with their abuser (even if the abuser pleads guilty).
Looks like we have been doing hoola hoops and bribery in order to avoid justice.




And by agreeing to take the money there won't be a single case heard before the courts, given the conditions attached to the money. It isn't the amount of money that it important, rather the conditions attached.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: D4S on May 23, 2009, 12:25:36 PM
No one knows what really happened in those institutions. Many of those accused (though unnamed) are now dead and they cannot defend themselves.

I do know, and I’m sure many other people know, that the majority of the boys who were sent to those institutions were the thugs of their era. That is why they ended up there. In many cases they were from broken homes and the trauma they suffered probably resulted in their anti-social behaviour. I am not attempting to make a case for the few religious or lay thugs who took advantage of their vulnerability, but I amening to see the religious orders beiequally stating that it is quite sickng pilloried today.



Agree with you Declan that letter is a disgrace.  No one knows what really happened in those institutions he says, that was the point of the report.  What a narrow minded idiot.  As for saying the majority were the thugs of their era...that's a joke! I'm sure some were thieves, vandals etc but did they deserve the abuse they got??? I don't think so! It was a crime to have been born out of wedlock, a crime to steal a bike, a crime to steal a loaf of bread from the shop! It was all about money for the church + the state....disgusting!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on May 23, 2009, 12:33:06 PM
The whole story is nothing short of a national disgrace. The disgrace will continue unless the perverts behind the abuse are convicted and left to rot in jail. Whether they are members of Holy Orders or not, their actions were criminal as well as obscene and immoral.

If this was anywhere else the streets of Dublin would be awash with protestors demanding convictions and reparations. Instead, we'll see acres of print but very little action.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: SLIGONIAN on May 23, 2009, 12:37:07 PM
The whole story is nothing short of a national disgrace. The disgrace will continue unless the perverts behind the abuse are convicted and left to rot in jail. Whether they are members of Holy Orders or not, their actions were criminal as well as obscene and immoral.

If this was anywhere else the streets of Dublin would be awash with protestors demanding convictions and reparations. Instead, we'll see acres of print but very little action.

Thats exactly what im getting at. Its astonishing what power gets you away with. Our Country is a joke, so much corruption from those in power. Get them named and shammed and thrown in jail.

On another question any of yee at mass back home today, what did the local priest have to say?

Got my days mixed up above, thought today was Sunday, as our day off is Friday and every second Saturday over here it gets confusing sometimes.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 23, 2009, 03:08:31 PM
There'll never be any action taken against the criminals, the state and church have guaranteed that with the conditions of the settlement agreed. It'd also beg the question over how much of the pie the solicitors took. Reports in the papers today suggesting they were paid by the state and then looked to be paid by whoever they represented.

I'd say many wouldn't be willing to try and take on the state given the case of Louise O'Keeffe and the massive bill the state managed to land on her. 750k or something around that. The state managed to send shock waves down any of the victims that planned to look for justice. They lived their lives in fear when growing up and were victims, and are yet again in fear from the state that won't find justice for these people. Very shocking way our country has been ran and is been ran.

I wonder how many of those going from elections of the govt parties will be questioned when campaigning for the elections.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 23, 2009, 03:50:47 PM
I'm sorry lads but the fact that compensation has been paid has nothing to do with chasing these f**kers and putting them on trial. Crime has been committed and what happened in terms of a civil claim and a civil settlement has no effect, to the best of my knowledge, on using evidence to secure a conviction against a criminal. I'm no lawyer and maybe there are some on here more clued into the law that can explain exactly whey these people cannot be charged with these monstrous crimes. Also, aren't the bishops and others that knew but moved these b**tards around and buried truth also guilty of witholding evidence or obstruction. I hope to hear everyones report from their local mass this Sat/Sun. Let here what the clergy have to tell their flock.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 24, 2009, 03:44:08 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 24, 2009, 10:00:02 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Perhaps for the fact that some of them suffer from chronic depression, many have tried and succeeded in killing themselves and generally have had their lives ruined. There are costs associated with being ill like that and 65k goes nowhere near paying for it i'd imagine. I have to say I am disgusted that you'd come on here and your contribution is to whinge that these poor brutalised people get or seek compensation. Perhaps you might enlighten us with your solution to the problem.  Let me guess - the church says sorry and we wait for all these moaners to die and then we can just forget about the whole nasty affair.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: SLIGONIAN on May 24, 2009, 10:05:24 AM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Perhaps for the fact that some of them suffer from chronic depression, many have tried and succeeded in killing themselves and generally have had their lives ruined. There are costs associated with being ill like that and 65k goes nowhere near paying for it i'd imagine. I have to say I am disgusted that you'd come on here and your contribution is to whinge that these poor brutalised people get or seek compensation. Perhaps you might enlighten us with your solution to the problem.  Let me guess - the church says sorry and we wait for all these moaners to die and then we can just forget about the whole nasty affair.

I dont think GD was getting at the victims, I think he was getting at the state.

Compensation is part of the healing I agree myles, of course it is, its not free to see a pyschologist or guidance counsellor etc.., im sure they are getting help this way to somehow manage to live on. You have to id say.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 24, 2009, 12:54:47 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 24, 2009, 12:57:11 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


A good starting polint alright.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 24, 2009, 01:03:12 PM
Welcome development


The personnel assistant to Cardinal Seán Brady has said those who ran the industrial school system had to take responsibility for child abuse.

Fr Timothy Bartlett said the relevant members of the Conference of Religious in Ireland who ran the schools had to pay more towards the State's redress scheme.

Fr Bartlett was speaking on Radio Ulster's Sunday Sequence programme
He also said the Catholic Church had to establish why such evil was inflicted upon the victims
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 24, 2009, 01:15:43 PM
If it was any other organisation there would be calls for it to be disband... just a thought   ::)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 24, 2009, 01:23:24 PM
Bishop apology for 'evil' abuse 
 
Dr Noel Treanor made the comments to a congregation in Carryduff 
The Bishop of Down and Connor has apologised to all victims of child sex abuse by the Catholic church.

Dr Noel Treanor was speaking after a report last week said thousands had been abused over 60 years.

He said the report was "heartbreaking" and had recorded cruelty and abuses which were "criminal and sinful."

But Dr Treanor said the church was addressing the "evil", adding that the Down and Connor diocese now had robust child protection measures in place.

"I state my sorrow, shame and visceral pain in the face of these and all abuses inflicted on children and vulnerable adults, whenever they took place, wherever they are perpetrated," he told a congregation in Carryduff on Sunday.

"I apologise on behalf of the church to all who are victims of abuse on the part of those who professed to care for them, or minister to them, in the name of Christ.

"I apologise, too, for the failure of those in positions of leadership in the Church to deal with the abusers."

The victims of child abuse by religious orders were among 35,000 children who were placed in a network of reformatories, industrial schools and workhouses until the early 1990s.


 
Abuse at Catholic institutions was investigated
More than 2,000 people told the Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse they suffered physical and sexual abuse as children in the institutions.

The commission found that sexual abuse was "endemic" in boys' institutions, and church leaders knew what was going on.

Dr Treanor said: "As we grasp the extent and dimensions of this evil that has been at work within the church, we have to recognise that as a church in particular, and as society, and as individuals, we stand in need of chastening our moral and personal radar.

"Anger, indifference, denial, washing one's hands of guilt, like Pilate, if partly comprehensible as reactions, will not suffice on the part of anyone."

The Irish deputy prime minister called the abuse of children in Catholic-run institutions as one of the "darkest chapters" in Irish history.

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, said anyone responsible for the abuse should be held to account.

The report, nine years in the making and covering a period of six decades, also found government inspectors failed to stop beatings, rapes and humiliation.

The findings will not be used for criminal prosecutions.  
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 24, 2009, 08:54:06 PM
The Minister for Finance has welcomed calls for the religious orders cited in the Ryan Report to increase their contributions to the State's compensation fund for victims of institutional child abuse.


But Mr Lenihan and the Taoiseach have both stressed that the Government may not have the legal ability to force the religious orders to make a larger contribution.

The Bishop of Down and Connor, Noel Treanor, said he supported calls for the religious orders involved to increase their contributions to the compensation fund for victims.

AdvertisementOn RTÉ Radio's This Week programme, Bishop Treanor said the Church must take the necessary steps to address outstanding issues and be seen to do so honestly, courageously and humbly.

Fr Timothy Bartlett, personal assistant to Cardinal Séan Brady, said the members of the Conference of Religious in Ireland who ran the schools had to pay more towards the State's redress scheme.

The Labour leader, Eamon Gilmore, described the remarks as a 'strong signal' that the Church was prepared to reopen the agreement capping the contribution by the orders, which was signed in 2002.

He called on the Government to get in touch with the religious orders quickly, with a view to reopening negotiations.

However, the Taoiseach said that it would not be helpful for him to speculate on what had been said.

The Government is to hold a special meeting this week to discuss the fall-out from the Commission report, and will be getting legal advice from the Attorney General on the deal.

But obviously, Mr Cowen said, if those on the other side of the agreement were prepared to reopen it, the State would sit down and discuss that.

On a possible referendum on children, Mr Cowen said it had not been possible to reach a consensus on the holding of a referendum, and it was now up to the Minister for Children to come back to Government with his considered opinion on how to move forward.

Meanwhile, Ombudsman for Children Emily Logan said it was incorrect for the Health Service Executive to say that all children in residential were assured of independent inspection.

She said that only two of the nine centres accommodating 180 children who have come here from abroad without their families are independently monitored.

She added that a further 200 children with intellectual disabilities are living in residential institutions which are not inspected by the Health Information and Quality Authority.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 24, 2009, 09:14:23 PM
I don't go to mass but would be interested to know of many local priests who spoke out this Sunday. Anyone anything to report?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: hardstation on May 24, 2009, 09:16:58 PM
My ma came in from mass the other night with a wee piece of card, asking for 'Prayers for the Priests'.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 24, 2009, 09:18:22 PM
Parish priest in Cross did, strangely he said something similar to the bishop, that the perverts were criminals and talked about the child protection measures in place, how he can't give a child a lift if he sees one on the road etc.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 24, 2009, 09:20:46 PM
Bishop Casey said today that the abusers should all be charged, convicted and jailed.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 25, 2009, 01:41:09 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


The guilty monsters should be charged and tried in a court of law and if found guilty should be sent to prison for the full term available.
As for myles, please don't try and second guess my opinion.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 25, 2009, 01:43:53 PM
My ma came in from mass the other night with a wee piece of card, asking for 'Prayers for the Priests'.

Sure it wasn't 'Prayers for Vocations'?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 01:49:40 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


The guilty monsters should be charged and tried in a court of law and if found guilty should be sent to prison for the full term available.
As for myles, please don't try and second guess my opinion.

And what about all the ones who buried the truth, obstructed the investigation. What should be done with them?

All these statements coming from leading church figures are nothing but words until some of them get off their arses and do something. Most victims that I've seen interviewed are not impressed by mere words. It is only the church grasping at straws as public opinion turns against them. Action is what the church needs to do, not releasing of statements. Start by paying what they said they would (they haven't even done this yet), then agree to pay more. Name and shame all involved and cooperate fully with any criminal investigation.

So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 25, 2009, 02:02:23 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


The guilty monsters should be charged and tried in a court of law and if found guilty should be sent to prison for the full term available.
As for myles, please don't try and second guess my opinion.

And what about all the ones who buried the truth, obstructed the investigation. What should be done with them?

All these statements coming from leading church figures are nothing but words until some of them get off their arses and do something. Most victims that I've seen interviewed are not impressed by mere words. It is only the church grasping at straws as public opinion turns against them. Action is what the church needs to do, not releasing of statements. Start by paying what they said they would (they haven't even done this yet), then agree to pay more. Name and shame all involved and cooperate fully with any criminal investigation.

So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......


Not a thing mentioned. Just put more money on the plate !  ;) They never said what it was for.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 25, 2009, 02:04:05 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


The guilty monsters should be charged and tried in a court of law and if found guilty should be sent to prison for the full term available.
As for myles, please don't try and second guess my opinion.

And what about all the ones who buried the truth, obstructed the investigation. What should be done with them?

All these statements coming from leading church figures are nothing but words until some of them get off their arses and do something. Most victims that I've seen interviewed are not impressed by mere words. It is only the church grasping at straws as public opinion turns against them. Action is what the church needs to do, not releasing of statements. Start by paying what they said they would (they haven't even done this yet), then agree to pay more. Name and shame all involved and cooperate fully with any criminal investigation.

So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......


If evidence can be found to prove obstruction, then the individuals involved should be tried as well - happy enough with that or will you only be happy if the whole church is made to wear sack cloth and ashes?

Local PP said that he was both ashamed and disgusted by what has happened and he asked everyone to join with him in praying for the victims of abuse.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 06:06:30 PM
Compensation - why do people need money to make things right?!!!
f**king Ireland turning American!
Throw money at a problem and everything will be sorted.

Can see what you are seeing to an extent but what else is there?  'Sorry.. now on yer way'...  It will help make life more comfortable and these people deserve all the comfort now they can get. Money don't make it right but it is something. Would be more important to have these sadists in jail.


The guilty monsters should be charged and tried in a court of law and if found guilty should be sent to prison for the full term available.
As for myles, please don't try and second guess my opinion.

And what about all the ones who buried the truth, obstructed the investigation. What should be done with them?

All these statements coming from leading church figures are nothing but words until some of them get off their arses and do something. Most victims that I've seen interviewed are not impressed by mere words. It is only the church grasping at straws as public opinion turns against them. Action is what the church needs to do, not releasing of statements. Start by paying what they said they would (they haven't even done this yet), then agree to pay more. Name and shame all involved and cooperate fully with any criminal investigation.

So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......


If evidence can be found to prove obstruction, then the individuals involved should be tried as well - happy enough with that or will you only be happy if the whole church is made to wear sack cloth and ashes?

Local PP said that he was both ashamed and disgusted by what has happened and he asked everyone to join with him in praying for the victims of abuse.
Prayers are cheap. How about they pay the victims what agreed to pay and that's without getting into should they pay more .
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 06:25:10 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 06:27:19 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.

But as I gather from this thread did the Christian Brothers and therefore the Catholic Chruch not in some way challenge the report to make sure the names of the offenders were not published?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 06:34:21 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.

But as I gather from this thread did the Christian Brothers and therefore the Catholic Chruch not in some way challenge the report to make sure the names of the offenders were not published?

Yes I understand the same, they couldn't be named in the report but I don't think that would mean they were immune to being pulled through the courts. The report won't take the crimes away and if there is a case then why shouldn't that be taken through court.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 25, 2009, 06:36:21 PM
So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......

FFS Myles on one hand you're going to chase me from the door when I come canvassing because you have me pegged as a Shinner and now you have me down as a regular Mass attender because I'm trying to point out that others are laible for this scandal than the Church. On both cases you are incorrect, but since you ask, I was at a Traditional (Latin) Mass yesterday. They tend not to dwell on such parochial matters as this but we did pray for the salvation of Protestants, the conversion of the Jews and the conversion of communist Russia.

Must let them know next time that they've got the last one bate.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 06:39:27 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.

But as I gather from this thread did the Christian Brothers and therefore the Catholic Chruch not in some way challenge the report to make sure the names of the offenders were not published?

Yes I understand the same, they couldn't be named in the report but I don't think that would mean they were immune to being pulled through the courts. The report won't take the crimes away and if there is a case then why shouldn't that be taken through court.

Then what would be the Churchs' official line here? Do they think the offenders should be outed and brought through the courts? If so, is it not a bit hypocritical since they already went to lengths to protect these people?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 07:27:51 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 07:32:40 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.

But as I gather from this thread did the Christian Brothers and therefore the Catholic Chruch not in some way challenge the report to make sure the names of the offenders were not published?

Yes I understand the same, they couldn't be named in the report but I don't think that would mean they were immune to being pulled through the courts. The report won't take the crimes away and if there is a case then why shouldn't that be taken through court.

Then what would be the Churchs' official line here? Do they think the offenders should be outed and brought through the courts? If so, is it not a bit hypocritical since they already went to lengths to protect these people?

I'd be of the opinion that this is a matter for the courts and not for the reports commission.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 07:50:12 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

No thats why I was asking, I wouldn't profess to know the inner workings of the Church very well.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 07:58:15 PM
So what did the parish priests have to say for themselves at the weekend. Donagh, GDA  or any of ye that went to mass......

FFS Myles on one hand you're going to chase me from the door when I come canvassing because you have me pegged as a Shinner and now you have me down as a regular Mass attender because I'm trying to point out that others are laible for this scandal than the Church. On both cases you are incorrect, but since you ask, I was at a Traditional (Latin) Mass yesterday. They tend not to dwell on such parochial matters as this but we did pray for the salvation of Protestants, the conversion of the Jews and the conversion of communist Russia.

Must let them know next time that they've got the last one bate.

Sorry Donagh, I thought somewhere before you said you were a Sinn Fein member. Got my wires crossed on that one.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 08:00:37 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:03:47 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 08:09:39 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

I'm hugely confused, so are you agreeing that the Christian Brothers can do what they want without any bother from the Catholic Church?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 08:12:33 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 08:15:26 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 08:16:11 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

The arch bishop seems to disagree with you! So are you saying the CB are directly answerable to Rome instead of the Irish church? Does that mean the government should be going to Rome for their money - I think thats a great idea. Then when the inevitable similar scandals happen in other countries they'll know where to go to.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 25, 2009, 08:17:35 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.
You beat me to it midlouth.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 08:19:59 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.

Why would you be so understanding of these groups. They have shown nothing but contempt for the enquiry for 10 years and yet you believe that they are doing their best to get the money asap. I'd say they are doing the opposite. They'll whinge and moan about their low funds and hope people will forget.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:22:11 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

The arch bishop seems to disagree with you! So are you saying the CB are directly answerable to Rome instead of the Irish church? Does that mean the government should be going to Rome for their money - I think thats a great idea. Then when the inevitable similar scandals happen in other countries they'll know where to go to.
If you would read the bits I emboldened, it would be a lot easier to talk about issues with you.  I have a feeling you see what you want in whatever I say so I am done.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:23:27 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

I'm hugely confused, so are you agreeing that the Christian Brothers can do what they want without any bother from the Catholic Church?
You are confused?

What is it you are confused about?  I already explained to you...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 08:29:38 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.

Why would you be so understanding of these groups. They have shown nothing but contempt for the enquiry for 10 years and yet you believe that they are doing their best to get the money asap. I'd say they are doing the opposite. They'll whinge and moan about their low funds and hope people will forget.

I'd rather wait until we see the total outcome of this before I'd pass judgement. The enquiry has been done, it is now out in the public domain and will be dealt with. It is now a matter of waiting to see the response of govt and the church is.

Most of the money the church agreed to pay has been handed over, they are waiting now for the solicitors to finish up with the outstanding amount. So they'll be no mention, and I've yet to hear anyone bring it up bar on this thread, about low funds. In fact I'd say that the church is going to pay more than first agreed given the sound bites this week.

I'd wager you'd rather have the church removed from this country before you'd be happy.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 08:31:09 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

I'm hugely confused, so are you agreeing that the Christian Brothers can do what they want without any bother from the Catholic Church?
You are confused?

What is it you are confused about?  I already explained to you...

A yes or no answer to my emboldened question would clear up my confusion.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:32:54 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

I'm hugely confused, so are you agreeing that the Christian Brothers can do what they want without any bother from the Catholic Church?
You are confused?

What is it you are confused about?  I already explained to you...

A yes or no answer to my emboldened question would clear up my confusion.

You can't or won't read what I typed either?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 08:37:17 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.

Why would you be so understanding of these groups. They have shown nothing but contempt for the enquiry for 10 years and yet you believe that they are doing their best to get the money asap. I'd say they are doing the opposite. They'll whinge and moan about their low funds and hope people will forget.

I'd rather wait until we see the total outcome of this before I'd pass judgement. The enquiry has been done, it is now out in the public domain and will be dealt with. It is now a matter of waiting to see the response of govt and the church is.

Most of the money the church agreed to pay has been handed over, they are waiting now for the solicitors to finish up with the outstanding amount. So they'll be no mention, and I've yet to hear anyone bring it up bar on this thread, about low funds. In fact I'd say that the church is going to pay more than first agreed given the sound bites this week.

I'd wager you'd rather have the church removed from this country before you'd be happy.

No I'd be happy if church and state were 100% seperate and there was no special relationship for the catholic church in our country. I want them out of education and out of health. After that I couldn't give two f**ks what they do.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 08:37:56 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.
The auld granny use to tell me that the parish priest always use to say it but the point stands . They lived in the lap of luxury ,demanded money from the poor and now they are dragging their feet. If someone was transferring 127 million too the church do you think they'd be dragging their feet?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 08:41:58 PM
PPS, it's better to be armed with the facts.

The Catholic Church in Ireland doesn't have control over any religious order.  Religious orders have their own processes for making decisions.  So, the Church had nothing to do with the court case the Brothers brought against the state.

Oh yes, when it suits them they have no control. So I suppose the christian brothers could just do anything they like without fear of Rome. Of course they can't. The arch bishop of Dublin today said he was giving them a chance to consider paying more. He then said that he was doing this instead of "telling" them to do more, which sort of implies he could force them to if he wanted to.
Look at the bits I emboldened.  Try reading what I type, it helps.

I'm hugely confused, so are you agreeing that the Christian Brothers can do what they want without any bother from the Catholic Church?
You are confused?

What is it you are confused about?  I already explained to you...

A yes or no answer to my emboldened question would clear up my confusion.

You can't or won't read what I typed either?


You've gone very defensive here, I'm not getting at you.

I have read what you said, I am looking for clarification without the possibility of sarcasm or defensive bitterness.

If you could please answer my emboldened question yes or no it would clear everything up.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 08:42:25 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.

Why would you be so understanding of these groups. They have shown nothing but contempt for the enquiry for 10 years and yet you believe that they are doing their best to get the money asap. I'd say they are doing the opposite. They'll whinge and moan about their low funds and hope people will forget.

I'd rather wait until we see the total outcome of this before I'd pass judgement. The enquiry has been done, it is now out in the public domain and will be dealt with. It is now a matter of waiting to see the response of govt and the church is.

Most of the money the church agreed to pay has been handed over, they are waiting now for the solicitors to finish up with the outstanding amount. So they'll be no mention, and I've yet to hear anyone bring it up bar on this thread, about low funds. In fact I'd say that the church is going to pay more than first agreed given the sound bites this week.

I'd wager you'd rather have the church removed from this country before you'd be happy.

Church has no money,' says Ahern

 
By Daniel McConnell and Maeve Sheehan

Sunday May 24 2009

FORMER Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, the man who apologised on behalf of the State to the victims of clerical abuse, said yesterday there was no point in re-examining the compensation deal as the Church had no money.

The Cabinet is set to discuss the explosive Ryan Report, when it meets on Tuesday and will decide whether to ask the Attorney General to see if it is legally possible for the 2002 compensation deal, signed by then-Education Minister Michael Woods, to be re-negotiated.

Controversy has erupted as the State is set to be landed with a €1bn-plus bill to deal with all the compensation, while the Church paid just €128m.

Already legal fees of €140m have been paid, substantially more than the Catholic Church's contribution.

While there have been mixed signals coming from various members of the Cabinet in the past few days, Mr Ahern said yesterday that there was little point in re-negotiating the deal.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent, he said: "I remember when I did the deal, most of the Church properties would be schools, churches, facilities -- they are totally unsalable [sic]. Who would buy them? It would be the Government, so what's the point?"

When asked if he thought the Church had any money to meet the claims bill, he said: "I don't think they do. If somebody can find that they do have money, well good luck to them. But look at the Dublin Diocese -- I don't think they have huge assets, but that doesn't get away from the main point that what happened in these institutions was horrendous. But at the end of the day it was the State who put them in to those institutions, so the State is responsible."

He added the State didn't need to apologise again and said it was correct that those who are convicted of abuse should receive tough penalties. "No, we've already done that, we gave a fulsome apology and we have given 10 years of a commitment to it," Mr Ahern said.

"There is still a load of prosecutions going on. Those are still alive and still in the system and when they come up they get very tough sentences, and that's no harm. There is no doubt there was horrendous abuses to many young, innocent people."

Further reports into abuse claims in the Dublin Archdiocese and Cloyne, which are to set out the systemic abuse suffered by many in care, have been held up for legal reasons but are due for publication sometime before the summer recess.

Mr Ahern also denied the deal was done hastily. He said: "No -- it had gone on for ages, and we were more anxious to get it all wrapped up, and get the tribunal (Ryan) going, and get the system going.

At the time, we didn't think so many people would get the resources, but what happened in the end is that everyone in the institution got money, whether they were abused or not. Maybe there was no harm in that -- they had a tough life."

The Public Accounts Committee will discuss next week whether it can revisit the settlement while a leading priest called on religious orders to face up to their moral obligation to do more for abuse victims.

Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe repeated yesterday that it was his legal advice that the Government could not re-negotiate the deal.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent he stopped short of saying that religious orders should pay more for victims.

"I would like the religious orders to study fundamentally the graphic nature of what is contained within the report and to study the implications of that for themselves in terms of reputational damage, and to look at how we could move forward in the future," he said.

"The Church does make a massive contribution already in terms of providing land and purchasing land for schools right around this country. I would be very disappointed if that was forgotten."

Opposition parties have led the charge against the deal, demanding religious orders should pay more. The orders have refused to elaborate on a Cori (Conference of Religious of Ireland) statement which said that none of the orders planned to revisit the deal.

Fr Sean Healy, the high-profile Cori priest, failed to return calls yesterday from this newspaper. Religious orders contacted by this newspaper referred journalists back to the Cori statement.

Fr Peter McVerry, the Jesuit priest and campaigner for the homeless, said the religious orders should be doing more for abuse victims.

"The religious orders should have a moral obligation to contribute as much as they possibly can without interfering with their good and necessary work," he said.

Mr Woods, speaking on RTE radio yesterday, also said the religious institutions do not have as much resources as people believe.

He said: "They had to sell properties. You began to find that the vast majority of these holdings were schools, hospitals or care centres because they started all these in this country, not the State."

- Daniel McConnell and Maeve Sheehan


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-has-no-money-says-ahern-1749273.html
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:44:25 PM
PPS, I will refer you to what I typed earlier.  Don't waste my time asking again.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Ping Pong Santa on May 25, 2009, 08:46:46 PM
PPS, I will refer you to what I typed earlier.  Don't waste my time asking again.

I am at a loss to understand as to why you won't answer my very simple yes or no question?

Would it really take up so much of your precious time? You've posted twice not answering where one post would have answered.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 25, 2009, 08:48:56 PM
Mylesthe slasher is well capable of understanding that the Religious Orders do not come under the control of the Diocesan church or any of its Bishops. His justifiable anger has clouded his judgement and led to his irrational response. Only today the Synod of Bishops said that the deal should be reviewed and if necessary renegotiated, the response of the Orders was an emphatic NO. I believe the state response should be very robust, up to and including the removal of Orders freedom to practise
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 08:54:31 PM
Mylesthe slasher is well capable of understanding that the Religious Orders do not come under the control of the Diocesan church or any of its Bishops. His justifiable anger has clouded his judgement and led to his irrational response. Only today the Synod of Bishops said that the deal should be reviewed and if necessary renegotiated, the response of the Orders was an emphatic NO. I believe the state response should be very robust, up to and including the removal of Orders freedom to practise
100% correct about the Bishops.  I am unsure as to what you mean about the state response.  I mean, the state can't tell a religious order they can't practice as far as I know.  As far as I am aware, the only person who can do anything like that would be the Cardinal and even at that, as far as I know the Cardinal can only tell an order they are no longer welcome in the country.  In the case of the Brothers, I don't know what could be done.  In any case, there can't be too many Brothers left in the country.  All the schools I know of are now run by lay people and there are no Brothers teaching in any of them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 25, 2009, 09:07:14 PM
Ardmhachu i think you will find that the state can prevent certain religious groups from operating in the country, if they fail to conform to certain norms. In the past the Jesuits have been banned from operating in many Countries which would deem themselves to be catholic
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 09:15:43 PM
Ardmhachu i think you will find that the state can prevent certain religious groups from operating in the country, if they fail to conform to certain norms. In the past the Jesuits have been banned from operating in many Countries which would deem themselves to be catholic
Is there legislation north and south that would allow them to do this?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 09:20:21 PM
Hold the horses please, what has been agreed to be paid has been paid or is in the process of going through the solicitors to be paid.

There has also been movements behind the scenes to see what criminal charges can be brought against those who committed that unspeakable.

This isn't something that is going to be sorted out, so those demanding this that and the other better hold on a bit until the full context of the report and be understood, it isn't out a week yet.
Why is it taking so long ? The Church/Orders have and had no problem passing the plate around the Priest saying he didn't want to hear any coins. Now they are on the bread line? Typical of this order of hypercritical high horse men and women, never had a problem demanding money from the poor too live in the lap of luxury.

It takes a long time for that amount of assets to be transferred over to the state. These things don't just happen over night.

Where did the priest say he didn't want to hear any coins? Now you've gone down your usual line of spouting rubbish.

Why would you be so understanding of these groups. They have shown nothing but contempt for the enquiry for 10 years and yet you believe that they are doing their best to get the money asap. I'd say they are doing the opposite. They'll whinge and moan about their low funds and hope people will forget.

I'd rather wait until we see the total outcome of this before I'd pass judgement. The enquiry has been done, it is now out in the public domain and will be dealt with. It is now a matter of waiting to see the response of govt and the church is.

Most of the money the church agreed to pay has been handed over, they are waiting now for the solicitors to finish up with the outstanding amount. So they'll be no mention, and I've yet to hear anyone bring it up bar on this thread, about low funds. In fact I'd say that the church is going to pay more than first agreed given the sound bites this week.

I'd wager you'd rather have the church removed from this country before you'd be happy.

Church has no money,' says Ahern

 
By Daniel McConnell and Maeve Sheehan

Sunday May 24 2009

FORMER Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, the man who apologised on behalf of the State to the victims of clerical abuse, said yesterday there was no point in re-examining the compensation deal as the Church had no money.

The Cabinet is set to discuss the explosive Ryan Report, when it meets on Tuesday and will decide whether to ask the Attorney General to see if it is legally possible for the 2002 compensation deal, signed by then-Education Minister Michael Woods, to be re-negotiated.

Controversy has erupted as the State is set to be landed with a €1bn-plus bill to deal with all the compensation, while the Church paid just €128m.

Already legal fees of €140m have been paid, substantially more than the Catholic Church's contribution.

While there have been mixed signals coming from various members of the Cabinet in the past few days, Mr Ahern said yesterday that there was little point in re-negotiating the deal.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent, he said: "I remember when I did the deal, most of the Church properties would be schools, churches, facilities -- they are totally unsalable [sic]. Who would buy them? It would be the Government, so what's the point?"

When asked if he thought the Church had any money to meet the claims bill, he said: "I don't think they do. If somebody can find that they do have money, well good luck to them. But look at the Dublin Diocese -- I don't think they have huge assets, but that doesn't get away from the main point that what happened in these institutions was horrendous. But at the end of the day it was the State who put them in to those institutions, so the State is responsible."

He added the State didn't need to apologise again and said it was correct that those who are convicted of abuse should receive tough penalties. "No, we've already done that, we gave a fulsome apology and we have given 10 years of a commitment to it," Mr Ahern said.

"There is still a load of prosecutions going on. Those are still alive and still in the system and when they come up they get very tough sentences, and that's no harm. There is no doubt there was horrendous abuses to many young, innocent people."

Further reports into abuse claims in the Dublin Archdiocese and Cloyne, which are to set out the systemic abuse suffered by many in care, have been held up for legal reasons but are due for publication sometime before the summer recess.

Mr Ahern also denied the deal was done hastily. He said: "No -- it had gone on for ages, and we were more anxious to get it all wrapped up, and get the tribunal (Ryan) going, and get the system going.

At the time, we didn't think so many people would get the resources, but what happened in the end is that everyone in the institution got money, whether they were abused or not. Maybe there was no harm in that -- they had a tough life."

The Public Accounts Committee will discuss next week whether it can revisit the settlement while a leading priest called on religious orders to face up to their moral obligation to do more for abuse victims.

Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe repeated yesterday that it was his legal advice that the Government could not re-negotiate the deal.

Speaking to the Sunday Independent he stopped short of saying that religious orders should pay more for victims.

"I would like the religious orders to study fundamentally the graphic nature of what is contained within the report and to study the implications of that for themselves in terms of reputational damage, and to look at how we could move forward in the future," he said.

"The Church does make a massive contribution already in terms of providing land and purchasing land for schools right around this country. I would be very disappointed if that was forgotten."

Opposition parties have led the charge against the deal, demanding religious orders should pay more. The orders have refused to elaborate on a Cori (Conference of Religious of Ireland) statement which said that none of the orders planned to revisit the deal.

Fr Sean Healy, the high-profile Cori priest, failed to return calls yesterday from this newspaper. Religious orders contacted by this newspaper referred journalists back to the Cori statement.

Fr Peter McVerry, the Jesuit priest and campaigner for the homeless, said the religious orders should be doing more for abuse victims.

"The religious orders should have a moral obligation to contribute as much as they possibly can without interfering with their good and necessary work," he said.

Mr Woods, speaking on RTE radio yesterday, also said the religious institutions do not have as much resources as people believe.

He said: "They had to sell properties. You began to find that the vast majority of these holdings were schools, hospitals or care centres because they started all these in this country, not the State."

- Daniel McConnell and Maeve Sheehan


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/church-has-no-money-says-ahern-1749273.html

Sure poor auld Bertie has no money either. My heart bleeds.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 25, 2009, 09:24:51 PM
I am unable to quote you the precise piece of legislation which would cover such an action, but it has been used against religious sects that were considered harmful to the public good, the Moonies and the Church of Scientology being comparitively recent examples
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on May 25, 2009, 09:28:52 PM
Fair enough.  I wasn't being pernickety, genuinely I have never heard of it happening before.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 09:38:58 PM


Sure poor auld Bertie has no money either. My heart bleeds.
did you even read what the article said?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 09:47:12 PM


Sure poor auld Bertie has no money either. My heart bleeds.
did you even read what the article said?

Yes I did Gnevin. When Irelands no 1 con man tells me that the church have no money (just like he had no money when he got the auld dig out) I would be looking for a second opinion. Aherns word is just as worthless as the churches at this moment in time.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 09:50:40 PM


Sure poor auld Bertie has no money either. My heart bleeds.
did you even read what the article said?

Yes I did Gnevin. When Irelands no 1 con man tells me that the church have no money (just like he had no money when he got the auld dig out) I would be looking for a second opinion. Aherns word is just as worthless as the churches at this moment in time.
Ok . I agree with you . How can one of the biggest land owners in the state be broke?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 25, 2009, 10:08:48 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 25, 2009, 10:27:36 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 25, 2009, 10:38:59 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 25, 2009, 10:40:10 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 10:40:29 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!

Not a thread for humour I don't think.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 25, 2009, 10:45:59 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.

The only thing you could get compensation for is being an idiot and I don't think the church can be held responsible for that. Amazing that this is your first post on what is one of the darkest and shameful episodes in Irelands recent history. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 25, 2009, 11:06:57 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 25, 2009, 11:07:28 PM
Yes, there are people in the church who used their position to abuse people. But i think people often go overboard in their criticism. The world was different then. So was society.

- Teachers used to think that canning was agood thing.
- Authorities used to think that people with leaning difficulties could be cured by giving the patient electric shocks.
- My granny was brought up in a Victorian age, and throught that children should be seen and not heard. Whisper and you got a clip on the ear.

I wouldt condone what some of the clerics did, but there are many more good clerics than bad ones.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 25, 2009, 11:21:14 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 11:50:01 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 25, 2009, 11:52:17 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?


As I said before all you have to do is go to Land Registry and see what they have - it's not cofined to graveyards !!! They've been left loads of land / farms / property.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 25, 2009, 11:57:00 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?


As I said before all you have to do is go to Land Registry and see what they have - it's not cofined to graveyards !!! They've been left loads of land / farms / property.

Who is going to buy them? The country is hardly awash with money?

Also could you post a link to where on the land registry website I can search?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 25, 2009, 11:58:35 PM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?


As I said before all you have to do is go to Land Registry and see what they have - it's not cofined to graveyards !!! They've been left loads of land / farms / property.

Who is going to buy them? The country is hardly awash with money?


There's plenty of people with money who are sitting on the money and would buy at the right price no doubt.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 26, 2009, 12:05:39 AM
That is a ridiculous argument.

Do you have the link where I can search land registry? Can't find it on the site, it appears to be a paid service.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 12:29:42 AM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.
New low for the GAA board
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 12:32:57 AM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?
Plenty of assets  . They had no problem selling land and buildings around where I live.  Some properties would be unsuitable but others are prime land . Can't they remortgage the properties?

How much would Mater Dei get , with the right permission enough to cover the entire 1bn debt.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 12:37:25 AM
Yes, there are people in the church who used their position to abuse people. But i think people often go overboard in their criticism. The world was different then. So was society.

- Teachers used to think that canning was agood thing.
- Authorities used to think that people with leaning difficulties could be cured by giving the patient electric shocks.
- My granny was brought up in a Victorian age, and throught that children should be seen and not heard. Whisper and you got a clip on the ear.

I wouldt condone what some of the clerics did, but there are many more good clerics than bad ones.
Clearly a WUM
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 26, 2009, 12:43:31 AM
The church have no money ?????????


Bollocks they have no money - they've fortunes in cash and very valuable assets.
Believe it or not, the diocese of Dublin doesn't have a lot of cash at the present time. I believe the same can be said for other dioceses around the country.
Note I am referring to cash and not property or other forms of assets.
A report in a Sunday paper some months ago reported that the money held in stocks and shares is now worth only €4m, whereas it's value was once €25m before the onset of the recession. The same loss of value the reporter assumed was probably the case in every diocese around the country.
Probably the main culprits, the "religious" congregations, are in the same boat and are strapped for readies but they sure do own a lot of properties and lands, most of which was bequeathed to them in wills in former times.

They have serious assets - sell them if they have to.

What serious assets do they have that anyone would want to have? Churches, graveyards, convents and schools. Who is likely to buy these?
In Marino, close to where I live, the CBs have a plot of 11 acres of prime development land. It had a pitch & putt course that was used by old folks'clubs in the area for some years. Then the Brothers decided to turf the pensioners out and applied for planning permission. One brother who disagreed with the decision to evict the tenants told me that the land back then was valued at around €11 million- €1m per acre.. However, they were refused this permission on the ground that the land ws zoned for leisure and recreation purposes. They may apply again in 2012 and in the meantime the 11 acres are unused.






Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 26, 2009, 08:59:04 AM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.
New low for the GAA board

So exactly will money help ease the pain and suffering? Explain.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2009, 09:40:49 AM
So exactly will money help ease the pain and suffering? Explain.

It will allow them access to treatment (of their choice) for their trauma for a start.

That said, they could follow the advise the spokeswoman for CORI gave on RTE Radio 1 this morning and let the religious orders that abused them in the first place look after the provision of counselling and psychiatric treatment.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Billys Boots on May 26, 2009, 09:43:48 AM
Quote
We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

I have a lot of sympathy for the victims, and the way the state/church has gone about 'redressing' their apalling treatment is a low in the history of the state.  My own take (from listening to the victims) is that the best way of making this right is by putting structures in place that will convince them (the victims) that this cannot possibly happen in Ireland again.  I don't think that money is the major issue for most of them.

That said, I think the state should seize all church property that is used for educational purposes (already paid for, and maintained by the state), and this appears like a good time to do it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
In Marino, close to where I live, the CBs have a plot of 11 acres of prime development land. It had a pitch & putt course that was used by old folks'clubs in the area for some years. Then the Brothers decided to turf the pensioners out and applied for planning permission. One brother who disagreed with the decision to evict the tenants told me that the land back then was valued at around €11 million- €1m per acre.. However, they were refused this permission on the ground that the land ws zoned for leisure and recreation purposes. They may apply again in 2012 and in the meantime the 11 acres are unused.

Why is there a need for this to stop at the irish church?  

Surely given that they were following the vatican's rules vis a vis keeping this information "in-house", then the vatican is as liable as anyone?

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 10:56:48 AM
The Catholic Church should be disbanded and all their wealth used to help the abused, the poor and the sick. The buildings and the grounds would make great facilities for childrens centres and play areas with giant slides and Disney characters. John Lennon was rite..
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 11:05:07 AM
I took my cubs to this in Wales last year. It was a church. Wonderful place put to better use...

This was a church a short walk from Rhyl town centre is a beautiful red brick church with a difference.

Molly Mouse Play House is a much needed clean and contemporary environment for those wanting a safe place to have a family outing. It has an enormous soft play frame for those with lots of energy, and for younger members there is a baby/toddler area filled with activity toys.

There is a lovely adult sofa room, with a television and daily papers to sit and enjoy a cup of coffee and a fresh cream cake.

Rest assured, your children will have a fantastic time and are monitored by qualified and experienced staff ready to help with any of your needs.
Would be like an amend by the church to the children of Ireland.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 26, 2009, 11:42:53 AM
The Conference of the Religious in Ireland has said the refusal by the orders to renegotiate the compensation deal agreed with the State is not a blocking mechanism or a way of saying no to the survivors.

CORI represents the 18 congregations responsible for institutional abuse of children.

On RTÉ's Morning Ireland, CORI Director General Marianne O'Connor said the orders involved would put more resources, including money, into meeting the needs of abuse survivors directly.
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She said that the orders were already supporting former residents and that they were seeking the best way to help those still suffering from the abuse they experienced at the hands of those who ran the institutions.

However Ms O'Connor said the 2002 deal would not be revisited.

The Cabinet will be briefed by the Attorney General about the legal situation of the deal when it meets later today.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 12:39:51 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.
New low for the GAA board

So exactly will money help ease the pain and suffering? Explain.

In the same way as if some one crashed in too your car and destroyed your leg.  If this happened would you claim compensation?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 12:49:15 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!

That is a terrible comment... not funny and the abuse was not just sexual as there was terrible beatings as well although these sadists probably got some kinky sexual kick out of that too. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 26, 2009, 01:19:48 PM
Youse are all going to wash the baby out with the bath water.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lazer on May 26, 2009, 01:47:09 PM
So exactly will money help ease the pain and suffering? Explain.

It will allow them access to treatment (of their choice) for their trauma for a start.

That said, they could follow the advise the spokeswoman for CORI gave on RTE Radio 1 this morning and let the religious orders that abused them in the first place look after the provision of counselling and psychiatric treatment.



Give them access to the treatment of their choice for free instead of simply handing out money, for some the cost of the treatment will be more then €65k, for some it could be less.

Compensation is NOT the answer as a lot of people on this thread have stated

The money put aside for this should be used to provide free treatment as required, put in place measures to ensure this cannot happen again and to fund criminal investigations.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 02:09:19 PM
Youse are all going to wash the baby out with the bath water.

I think you mean throw the baby out...  :o
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2009, 02:13:55 PM
Questions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4)

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 26, 2009, 02:37:20 PM
I have purposely stayed away from the thread for a few days and in reading the last 6/7 pages there is nothing being solved, no compromises, no conceding points and no willingness to understand.
Myles seems to dominate with his anger and inability to actually read people's posts and try to understand their point before picking one little aspect of what they said and going off on a rant. 
It is nearly impossible to engage with people in a serious discussion unless they have the intelligence to discuss the issue seriously.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 02:44:32 PM
I have purposely stayed away from the thread for a few days and in reading the last 6/7 pages there is nothing being solved, no compromises, no conceding points and no willingness to understand.
Myles seems to dominate with his anger and inability to actually read people's posts and try to understand their point before picking one little aspect of what they said and going off on a rant. 
It is nearly impossible to engage with people in a serious discussion unless they have the intelligence to discuss the issue seriously.

Patronising or wot? Maybe you need to find another discussion board then...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 26, 2009, 03:26:21 PM
I reserve my understanding for the little orphans, brutalised children, brutalised single mothers etc etc that suffered inhuman abuse at the hands of so called holy men. The abuse was "endemic" and "systematic". The bodies within the church (for example the christian brothers) have not cooperated with the enquiry, have taken legal action to prevent any of their evil monsters from being named and to this day have not even forked out the money that they said they would (i believe only 50% has been paid to date). The church has been apologetic and has gone on what to me seems to be a PR stunt of suggesting that the orders should look at paying more, while knowing that the orders have no intention of paying more. We hear from bishops about the bad priests that were there which totally ignores what the report said about "endemic" and "systematic". There were not only a few bad apples, on the contrary there were only a few good apples. And there were a whole lot of bad ones outside these schools that knew full well about it and did sweet FA. So you want me to understand the churches position. I say f**k the church. Let them get the money they morally owe to these people. The tax payer should not be forking out for the evil carried out by and covered up by the church. I think I have a right to be angry and I'm not the only one. Those that come on here and the first thing they do is make excuses for the church not doing what is right -  they are the ones that are showing no understanding for the innocents that were broken. They are the ones that lack intelligence, so caught up in the brainwashing of teh church that can't even tell the difference of right and wrong in even as black and white a case as this. They are the people that should look into their hearts and ask are they living a christian life as described by the bible. I don't think they are.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: guy crouchback on May 26, 2009, 03:48:02 PM
Quote
uestions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.



i watched this last night and can safely say it was one of the most powerful and moving  moments of television i have ever seen.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 26, 2009, 04:01:52 PM
Quote
uestions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.



Indeed. A brave man. That sets the tone for this debate - not understanding of the church and not the Jokes of Orior. I suppose Iceman thinks he is too angry?

i watched this last night and can safley say it was one of the most powerful and moving  momemts of television i have ever seen.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 04:31:18 PM
Quote
uestions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.




Jesus Christ of Almighty - this made the hairs stand on the back of my neck. This man's testimony was frightening to say the least - 2 days after he was brought to the home, he was raped, then beaten by 2 of them for a solid hour with not a shred of cloth on his body.


This testimony really puts it into perspective.

i watched this last night and can safley say it was one of the most powerful and moving  momemts of television i have ever seen.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 04:50:01 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 26, 2009, 04:51:24 PM
Quote
Questions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.

This should be shown again and again to illustrate what these b**tards did. The whole lot of them should be named and charges brought against them in open court. Watched it and can safely say I haven't been as upset by anything I've seen or heard in a long long time.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Billys Boots on May 26, 2009, 04:59:47 PM
Noel Dempsey was a shook-looking man after that - and, in fairness, who wouldn't be?  A very moving account of an atrocity. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on May 26, 2009, 05:01:16 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Are you serious? Baby, bath water!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 05:09:06 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

That was for the 2008 panel - new track suits needed for Sunday. The county board have let them down again.   ;)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 05:11:18 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 26, 2009, 05:17:27 PM

Quote
Seriously though, how far do you take this ?
Quote

Until the guilty have been brought to justice

Quote
Do you stop going to chapel ?
Quote
A very personal choice I'd have thought and I can see how people could stop going.

Quote
Do you change religion ?
Quote
It's not the religion I'd have thought was the issue but the institutions

Quote
Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?
Quote
I have


Where does it end ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 05:25:27 PM
Justice meaning what exactly ???


Jail terms ???


Public apologies ?


Sack cloth and ashes ??



More compensation ??


A bit of all the above ??


Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 26, 2009, 05:27:22 PM
A very moving and brave act in deed.

Let's get something straight here  - I am all for justice. I am all for the Church taking the blame and atoning for the sins of its clergy and members.  If you take the time to read over the thread again and my posts in particular I think you will find this to be true.
My point is that we should be realistic in how this justice is obtained.

We can't tear down Churches or schools or parochial houses and sell off the land.  It isn't an option.
We can't tell people to stop going to Church, to stop supporting their Church and their parish - at least for me this isn't an option.

My point all along has been to come up with some realistic suggestions to seek justice for the victims.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 05:27:49 PM
I served as an alterboy for 5 years.

I went to St Colmans College for 7 years.

I was never abused (probably related to the fact that I'm an ugly hoor).



Should I be upset that I wasnt abused? Hell, now I'm gonna miss out on the big pay-out. It aint fair. Justice for all. Shame!
Are you disagreeing with the concept of the abused getting compensation to help with with the suffering and pain the church caused them?

Yes.
New low for the GAA board

So exactly will money help ease the pain and suffering? Explain.

In the same way as if some one crashed in too your car and destroyed your leg.  If this happened would you claim compensation?

Well Orior ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 05:28:33 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Are you serious? Baby, bath water!

Some things are so broken they can't be fixed
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 05:45:48 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?

I wouldn't give the church 1 pence of my money... are you for real?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: midLouth on May 26, 2009, 05:55:26 PM
I'd like to clarify my position on this as I feel a lot of the responses I have gotten have taken it up wrong.

The church is accountable in this no doubt and should have to pay up 50% of the costs involved as it was their men under their rules that inflicted all this.

The State should be accountable for all the different govts and mininisters who chose to look the other way when clearly there was a problem. The govt as voted in by the members of the State are the people we entrust to enforce the constitution. They failed to do this.

The men who caused the harm to these children should be hauled through the courts, they broke the law and I don't care if there are men who are 100 years of age there is no way that they should be allowed to go to the grave with a good name.

After that what else can be done other than to make sure that the people who were in these schools get any support that is needed, and not from the church. At least not directly, the church should be made fund whatever services they need.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 06:00:03 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?

I wouldn't give the church 1 pence of my money... are you for real?


Stupid question maybe, but why not ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 06:13:51 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?

I wouldn't give the church 1 pence of my money... are you for real?


Stupid question maybe, but why not ?

They have more money than I have. Work all week to throw money to that shower!  Yeah-stupid question...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 06:17:56 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?

I wouldn't give the church 1 pence of my money... are you for real?


Stupid question maybe, but why not ?

They have more money than I have. Work all week to throw money to that shower!  Yeah-stupid question...

I knew it was a stupid question. But do you not feel obliged to contribute financially to your religion and the maintenance of it ? Bible says we should pay tithes - i.e 10% of our gross income to the church.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 06:22:31 PM
I'll take my chances and explain to God when I meet him  ;D 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 06:23:57 PM
I'll take my chances and explain to God when I meet him  ;D 


Put in a good word for me too  !!  ;)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on May 26, 2009, 06:26:52 PM
I heard on the radio that there was a nun in full attire collecting for the Sisters of (no) Mercy in Cork city on Saturday. Typical denial and arrogance as they were the worst perpetrators

Seriously though, how far do you take this ?


Do you stop going to chapel ?


Do you change religion ?


Do you stop putting money in the envelope ?


Where does it end ?

I wouldn't give the church 1 pence of my money... are you for real?


Stupid question maybe, but why not ?

They have more money than I have. Work all week to throw money to that shower!  Yeah-stupid question...

I knew it was a stupid question. But do you not feel obliged to contribute financially to your religion and the maintenance of it ? Bible says we should pay tithes - i.e 10% of our gross income to the church.

Bible says alot of things. Do you eat shellfish or pork etc. etc.?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 26, 2009, 06:28:27 PM
I'll take my chances and explain to God when I meet him  ;D 


Put in a good word for me too  !!  ;)

I knew you were winding me up  :P
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 06:32:16 PM
I'll take my chances and explain to God when I meet him  ;D 


Put in a good word for me too  !!  ;)

I knew you were winding me up  :P

Both of us beyond redemption !!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 26, 2009, 07:06:43 PM
Questions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4)

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.

Christ, very brave men. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2009, 08:30:09 PM
I watched that video of last night's Question and Answers again. That man is one courageous man. Fair play.




Remember Wexford !!!!!!!!!!!! What was that about ???????????
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 27, 2009, 12:05:06 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 27, 2009, 08:16:29 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.





1) You can't be serious - they abused, raped and destroyed the lives of 1000's when the were only kids. The report said the abuse was endemic - look it up in a dictionary if you can't comprehend. They then covered it up and obstructed the enquiry. They deserve every bit of negative reporting they get.
2) There has been some good work done but their name is dirt now due to pt 1 above and until they fix what they've done in a serious and sincere way then why should we think about the good they've done.
3) Again, are you serious. Are you saying we should let justice fall by the way side cos its too much hassle and money to get to the truth. Cop yourself on.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: DrinkingHarp on May 27, 2009, 09:38:58 AM

Orders to offer more to abused
The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years.
Thousands of children were abused in church-run institutions in Ireland

The Christian Brothers in the Irish Republic have announced they will review how much more compensation they can offer to victims of abuse.

The move follows last week's publication of the Ryan Report into the abuse of children in church-run institutions over six decades.

The Oblate Order also said it would devote more resources to compensate children abused in its care.

The order ran the Daingean Reformatory in County Offaly.

On Tuesday Taoiseach Brian Cowen said orders must make more payments "in view of the moral responsibility they continue to hold in these matters".

The Christian Brothers said they would enter into a six-week consultation process. It is understood that they could hand over properties worth tens of millions of euros.

In a statement the order said it recognised its "moral obligation" to former residents.

"The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

"The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years," said the statement.

The Irish government have also said they will implement all 20 of the reports recommendations and will meet with all of the religious orders to discuss how they can make further payments.

The Sisters of Mercy have said that they intend to accept the Taoiseach's invitation to meet them and to continue to co-operate in helping people who were in their care while children.

In a statement, the nuns make no reference to calls to provide more money.

In 2002 the 18 congregations responsible for the institutional abuse of children in Ireland struck a deal with government which capped their contribution to a compensation pot to 128 million euros.

An Assistant Garda Commissioner has been appointed to examine the potential for future prosecutions.

"Those accountable for such crimes - no matter how long ago - must also face the full rigours of the law," said Mr Cowen.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 27, 2009, 10:07:22 AM

Orders to offer more to abused
The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse. The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years.
Thousands of children were abused in church-run institutions in Ireland

The Christian Brothers in the Irish Republic have announced they will review how much more compensation they can offer to victims of abuse.

The move follows last week's publication of the Ryan Report into the abuse of children in church-run institutions over six decades.

The Oblate Order also said it would devote more resources to compensate children abused in its care.

The order ran the Daingean Reformatory in County Offaly.

On Tuesday Taoiseach Brian Cowen said orders must make more payments "in view of the moral responsibility they continue to hold in these matters".

The Christian Brothers said they would enter into a six-week consultation process. It is understood that they could hand over properties worth tens of millions of euros.

In a statement the order said it recognised its "moral obligation" to former residents.

"The Christian Brothers accept, with shame, the findings of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse.

"The congregation is deeply sorry for the hurt we have caused - not just for the mistakes of the past, but for the inadequacy of our responses over recent years," said the statement.

The Irish government have also said they will implement all 20 of the reports recommendations and will meet with all of the religious orders to discuss how they can make further payments.

The Sisters of Mercy have said that they intend to accept the Taoiseach's invitation to meet them and to continue to co-operate in helping people who were in their care while children.

In a statement, the nuns make no reference to calls to provide more money.

In 2002 the 18 congregations responsible for the institutional abuse of children in Ireland struck a deal with government which capped their contribution to a compensation pot to 128 million euros.

An Assistant Garda Commissioner has been appointed to examine the potential for future prosecutions.

"Those accountable for such crimes - no matter how long ago - must also face the full rigours of the law," said Mr Cowen.



To OFFER! more... such arrogance.  The state should go and take it off them... same as Gilligan and other criminals.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: johnneycool on May 27, 2009, 10:39:52 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.





If that's the only three things you are appalled by then you really have to get your priorities right.

Is it open season on the Catholic church as a whole, good priests, bad priests, Bishops etc etc, yes it is and it should remain so until they sort out their house internally, give evidence against those who sullied their good name and come clean on all the abuse that was perptrated in their name throughout the decades.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 27, 2009, 10:46:16 AM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.






You can't be serious ? Where have you been ? I take it you haven't read the report at all ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: bcarrier on May 27, 2009, 12:56:23 PM
I cant get this song out of my head lately ....

ALL I REMEMBER
Mick Hanly

I was raised on a rocking horse, sweets and bualadh bas,
Fifty wild boys to a room,
sing lámh, lámh, eile, the dish ran away with the spoon
Black shoes and stockings, for those who say don't, blue is the colour outside
God made the world, the snake tempted Eve and she died.
Wild Christian Brothers, sharpening their leathers
Learn it by heart that's the rule
All I remember is dreading September and school

CHORUS:
And they made me for better or worse,
the fool that I am or the wise man I'll be
And they gave me their blessings or curse
it wasn't their fault I was me,
Not the one that you see.


Its over 25 years since they taught me bit I think there are probably a lot of people educated by the christian brothers who have felt that way about them....a kind of hard but mainly fair memory. Brother Garvey who is head man now taught me and i would find it hard to believe that he is anything but a decent man struggling with a most horrible and shameful inheritance. It seems to me that he is effectively and belatedly going to have to oversee the winding up of the order. Even in my day they were in decline and most of those that I came across were old men - plenty were decent but there were certainly a sprinkling of brutal and dodgy ones - on hearing what I have lately I would not like to have come across them as younger men.  

It is easy in hindsight to see that the whole thing was a recipe for disaster - this quote from yesterdays telegraph says it better than I could ...

And then we must try to understand how these things happen. Presumably many of those who joined the orders did so with an honest intention of living a disciplined and celibate life. Many of them left home at 14 to join junior seminaries, before their own sexuality was awakened and then had to learn to live with an impossible pledge to celibacy taken before they were fully formed. These boys and girls also swore obedience to their orders and were, therefore, easily manipulated.
And then they were clustered together in single sex institutions, treated like gormless functionaries by their own superiors and put in charge of vulnerable children, who served the role of the cat that the office boy kicks.

But we have seen it in prisons and concentration camps and in English public schools, that a combination of sexual repression and power produces sadism.
Our own beloved CS Lewis, in a book regarded as a spiritual classic, Surprised By Joy, describes, indulgently, the routine sexual exploitation of little boys in an English public school. These things were worse in Ireland than elsewhere, and where they were at their worst elsewhere it was often Irish clergy and religious orders who were doing it. That is the unforgettable legacy of a proud Irish missionary endeavour.





Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 27, 2009, 01:24:33 PM
Don Baker sang a song on The Late Late Show on Friday about the 'religious' abusers... it was a haunting... if anyone knows how to paste up here
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on May 27, 2009, 01:50:01 PM
I've only read the first page or two here so am not responding to any post in particular. Just to say that I'm appalled at the anti-Church frenzy in the media.

There is no denying the in-human treatment and abuse that occurred but there are other scandals growing out of this: 
1) the totally unjust way that the clergy in general and religious institutions are being portrayed on radio, tv and papers
2) the lack of acknowledgement of the positive role that the majority of clergy & religious bodies have played and continue to play in eduacaion, health etc.
3) the lack of any reasonable explanation as to the enormous cost of the enquiries and redress.





If that's the only three things you are appalled by then you really have to get your priorities right.

Is it open season on the Catholic church as a whole, good priests, bad priests, Bishops etc etc, yes it is and it should remain so until they sort out their house internally, give evidence against those who sullied their good name and come clean on all the abuse that was perptrated in their name throughout the decades.

Yes, and Irish history doesn't fairly teach that Cromwell's campaign here brought lots of benefits to Ireland such as mapping the entire country, a much improved legal system and local government system. Using your ideology it is a scandal the way Cromwell's campaign is portrayed as genocide only.

This was the tolerance of child sex slavery by those trusted with those children, for decades. The Church in Ireland had this coming to them for the way they hid behind barristers and a weak Government.

BTW I notice the HSE announced spectacular bullshit statistics yesterday knowing that it would slip under the radar.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Croí na hÉireann on May 27, 2009, 02:43:45 PM
Quote
Questions and Answers, May 25th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Maybe the commission in itself is out of kilter, regardless of who's stumping up the bills.

One very brave and eloquent man.

This should be shown again and again to illustrate what these b**tards did. The whole lot of them should be named and charges brought against them in open court. Watched it and can safely say I haven't been as upset by anything I've seen or heard in a long long time.

It is to that man's eternal credit that he has turned into the decent, upstanding citizen that he is today. Fair play to him to have the composure to come on to national television & recount the torture he experienced. Why do we as a nation have to rely on brave citizens to stick their heads above the parapet before we take action??? Orla Tinsley, a 20 year old, had to go on the Late Late to get a new unit for Cystic Fibrosis that they were promised by the HSE the year before. You can watch it here http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/20090403.html (http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/20090403.html) Another disgrace  >:(
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 09:29:16 AM
Mary Mc Aleece on the radio now being very frank about the whole situation.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Well if everyone else is getting some money I'd like some as well please. I had the shite bate out of me by a teacher in a CCMS school when I was about 9 or 10 years old. Anyone know know where I put the claim in? If there's no cash left can I do swapsies for that painting in the Sistine Chapel?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 10:17:39 AM
Well if everyone else is getting some money I'd like some as well please. I had the shite bate out of me by a teacher in a CCMS school when I was about 9 or 10 years old. Anyone know know where I put the claim in? If there's no cash left can I do swapsies for that painting in the Sistine Chapel?

If you think you taking a beating in your school is the same as what went on in these industrial schools then you really have not got a clue (considering your first post on this thread you started by accusing me of not knowing the facts). What you are doing is trying to water down what happened, normalising it as if it is nothing really. Making a joke of thing. I used to think you had your head screwed on based on some comments you made on other issues Donagh but your credibility is fading fast. May I ask if you have family in the religious orders because I suspect a personal interest of some sort in this.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 10:39:30 AM
If you think you taking a beating in your school is the same as what went on in these industrial schools then you really have not got a clue (considering your first post on this thread you started by accusing me of not knowing the facts). What you are doing is trying to water down what happened, normalising it as if it is nothing really. Making a joke of thing. I used to think you had your head screwed on based on some comments you made on other issues Donagh but your credibility is fading fast. May I ask if you have family in the religious orders because I suspect a personal interest of some sort in this.

Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.
Secondly, you don't know the extent of the batin I took just as you don't know the extent of the batin all of these victims took, so don't try to belittle either. The point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else? 
Thirdly, no I don't have any family members in any of the Orders (except a few cousins in the Orange) and nor do I have any family members in Sinn Fein. Sometimes I just like to point out the foolishness which has people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 28, 2009, 10:52:25 AM
Quote
Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.

The state abdicated their responsibility to the religious orders and paid them for taking the children so therefore the bulk of the liability to my mind lies with the religious orders

Quote
The point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else?

I took plenty of physical beatings from lay teachers in the CBS system but because I had a strong family unit and structure to my life and wasn't at their mercy 24/7 for years it didn't have a lasting physical/psychological affect on me thankfully. So in my mind I don't have a reason to claim given the culture/laws of the time was that corporal punishment was allowable. However I wasn't raped and tortured like the testimonies I've read so there's no comparison.

Quote
people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   

I'd agree to a certain extent with that quote but that's the new secular orthodoxy for you - one form of thought control replacing the old clericalism. However to my mind it's blindingly obvious that the Christian Brothers in particular have not been held to account for their participation in this shameful episode and as I've said before I think there is a strong argument for their dissolution and transfer of all their assets to the state. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 11:01:24 AM
The Ryan report will be the final nail in the coffin for some of these orders who I believe are in the process of effectively winding down.

They themselves know that the game is up and attitudes have really hardened against them and anyone who would foolishly try to defend them or dilute what went on.

In addition, I predict that we'll see prosecutions in the cases of a lot of those still living who carried out the abuse.


I was watching the TV last night late on and Demot Aherne was on about building this new jail. I think they'll need it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 11:02:02 AM
Quote
Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.

The state abdicated their responsibility to the religious orders and paid them for taking the children so therefore the bulk of the liability to my mind lies with the religious orders

Quote
The point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else?

I took plenty of physical beatings from lay teachers in the CBS system but because I had a strong family unit and structure to my life and wasn't at their mercy 24/7 for years it didn't have a lasting physical/psychological affect on me thankfully. So in my mind I don't have a reason to claim given the culture/laws of the time was that corporal punishment was allowable. However I wasn't raped and tortured like the testimonies I've read so there's no comparison.

Quote
people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.   

I'd agree to a certain extent with that quote but that's the new secular orthodoxy for you - one form of thought control replacing the old clericalism. However to my mind it's blindingly obvious that the Christian Brothers in particular have not been held to account for their participation in this shameful episode and as I've said before I think there is a strong argument for their dissolution and transfer of all their assets to the state. 

1. The State cannot "abdicated their responsibility" - that would be unconstitutional.
2. Not all of the 35k claimants were raped or tortured, so even came anywhere near that level of abuse.
3. The individuals responsible should be held to account but going back to point one, present day Catholics should not be punished, which they will be if the Church assets are seized.

On an aside, I'll bet the Fianna Failers are loving this as there hasn't been a mention of the bankrupt state of the country since all of this broke.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 11:13:22 AM
Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.

1) The orders were paid by the government to fulfill a service.  The service was fulfilled correctly and the state are liable.  However surely the state is entitled to recoup their losses (at least in part) from any thirld party contractor that failed in their task?

2) It is apparent from the investigations that the orders acted as a whole to hide the abusers and the extent of their knowledge.  Therefore we are not dealing purely with errant individuals but also we organisation that aided and abetted them.

3) Regardless if the legal "have to" aspect, many people feel they should pay up because it is the christian/moral thing to do

Thirdly, no I don't have any family members in any of the Orders (except a few cousins in the Orange) and nor do I have any family members in Sinn Fein. Sometimes I just like to point out the foolishness which has people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.    

This isn't a hysterical media reaction.  There is too documentary evidence of certain orders (eg. Christian Brothers) acting in at best an obtuse manner and at worst an evasive manner when it comes to compensation and justice for victims.    For example Prime Time showed excerpts from legal adivce forwarded by orders in the U.S. to orders in Canada, advising on how to use trust/corporation law to protect assets.   Equally, the church as a whole continues to be evasive on the role of canon law versus civil law in these manners.  

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 11:19:09 AM
3. The individuals responsible should be held to account but going back to point one, present day Catholics should not be punished, which they will be if the Church assets are seized.

How much turnover has their been in terms of membership of the Christian Brothers since 2002?

Because in 2002 the willfully with-held information on abusers from the state.  The relevant files (from Rome) were only made available at a later stage to the Ryan commission.   

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 11:46:34 AM
Jim in this case the State knew that the abuse was happening for decades and did nothing while the abuse continued. So for the State to start crying about it now is like the Church going after the descendants of Guglielmo because he f**ked up the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The Church has already agreed to hand over £100 million which is the right thing to do, just as it was correct for Volkswagen to do something similar for the Jews but there are people who will not be happy until they see the Church stripped of everything. The Church has conceded the principal and the cash so now there is nothing to be gained by further punishing modern Catholics for the sins of the past.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on May 28, 2009, 12:03:19 PM
What was the 100million based on? If they agreed to hand over 100 then why not 150-200?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 12:07:19 PM
What was the 100million based on? If they agreed to hand over 100 then why not 150-200?

And why not 5 or 1? The important thing is that they have conceded the principle that they were at fault. The money is inconsequential.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on May 28, 2009, 12:15:42 PM
So you dont think they should have paid anything?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 12:16:29 PM
Your saying that giving 100 million was the right thing to do yet the other day E1 was sufficient as a jesture. You seem awful concerned about the members of the catholic church being out of pocket, I'm more concerned with the tax payer being iout of pocket which does not correspond to the amount of blame apportional to them. CORI finally came out yesterday and said 50:50 was about right, as did the governments own advisers at the time of this shameful deal. Everyone seems to be saying this now (bishops, normal clergy etc) It seems to me it is only the orders themselves that are saying they don't need to give another 400 million. Well the orders and Donagh.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Evil Genius on May 28, 2009, 12:19:41 PM
Firstly, no one has yet come onto this thread and explained why the Church should be held liable when the children were under the protection of the State.
Many people have explained (or at least attempted to explain) why the Church should be held at least partly liable and almost everyone has accepted those explanations to one degree or another.  Just because you do not/cannot accept those explanations does not mean this issue has not been addressed.
But just in case you missed it somewhere, as far as I personally am concerned the explanation is as follows. The abused children were "under the protection of the state", but they were also in the care of the Church. What you do not seem to appreciate (will not accept?) is that the question of accountability is not an "either/or". Yes, the State has a responsibility, but to try to use that to deny the additional responsibility of the Church, when it was Church-owned and run Institutions where the abuse occurred, carried out by Priests and Nuns of the Church etc, is perverse in the extreme.
Or to put it another way. If you had a youngster whom you left in the care of a State-registered Child Minder, and you discovered that your child was horribly abused, who would you blame? Would you simply say that the State was entirely to blame for not checking the Childminder sufficiently? And if awarded compensation by a Court, would you insist that it all comes from the State (taxpayer), even if the Childminder lived in a big house? Would the State not be entitled to recover some of the damages awarded against it from the childminder? Or maybe you wouldn't accept damages at all?  
Secondly, you don't know the extent of the batin I took just as you don't know the extent of the batin all of these victims took, so don't try to belittle either. The point is that if I took a batin every bit as bad as some of these victims from a lay teacher, then surely I have as much right to claim against the Church as anyone else?  
What you may have suffered and what these children suffered actually differs only as to degree, not in principle (imo). That is, if you suffered abuse as part of your education, then yes, you should be eligible for compensation. As for whom that compensation comes from, that depends on circumstance. For example, there is a difference between an individual teacher abusing kids at a school, where the school immediately turns him over to the police when uncovered, and a school where it was "endemic", with several teachers involved, and the school authorities knew it was happening and took action only in order to cover it up etc.
I don't know, but you seem to have a problem with the "Church" aspect of this matter. How would you react if you sent your child to a secular, fee-paying school eg in England or the USA, and found that he/she was being systematically abused by a number of teachers/staff who had been doing such things for years, without the school's owners taking any action to prevent what they did/ought to have known what was occurring?
Would you be happy if the individual teacher(s) were prosecuted and the State paid you compensation, but the School's owners were permitted to carry on, solely on condition they cleaned up their act in future? If the school was eg a Registered Charity, would you consider that that status, and the benefits which flow therefrom, be unaffected?

Sometimes I just like to point out the foolishness which has people gunning for people or organisations on the basis of some hysterical media reaction which seeks to protect their own agenda.    
Of course you must be entitled to your opinion, but have you never wondered why, on a Board where controversial topics normally tend to draw a wide variety of reactions and opinions, you appear to be in a tiny minority who characterises this affair in terms of "foolishness", "hysteria" and "protecting agendas" etc?
You remind me of the proud mother watching her soldier son march down the road with his Regiment, observing that "the rest are all out of step except him"... ::)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Evil Genius on May 28, 2009, 12:35:58 PM

3. The individuals responsible should be held to account but going back to point one, present day Catholics should not be punished, which they will be if the Church assets are seized.


Really?
You see, when the State has to pay out compensation, that means every citizen/taxpayer gets punished, including eg those who are not Catholic, or who had no connection whatever with what went on, or who are in their late teens/early 20's etc and so were minors themselves when this abuse occurred.. Yet they cannot avoid their obligations as citizens/taxpayers by pointing out that "It was nothing to do with me".
Whereas, those people who are Members of the Catholic church and who contributed money to that organisation, including the Orders who committed the abuse, did so entirely voluntarily, even after stories of this abuse began to leak out.
Yet you would conclude that the former must pay, but the latter should not?
Whatever else your opinions, they are normally at least coherently expressed and containing a certain logic; nor are you a typical WUM. But I must say I find your comments on this matter so perverse that I cannot ascribe them to woolly-mindedness, but wilful contrariness (or somesuch).
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 12:55:01 PM
Your saying that giving 100 million was the right thing to do yet the other day E1 was sufficient as a jesture. You seem awful concerned about the members of the catholic church being out of pocket, I'm more concerned with the tax payer being iout of pocket which does not correspond to the amount of blame apportional to them. CORI finally came out yesterday and said 50:50 was about right, as did the governments own advisers at the time of this shameful deal. Everyone seems to be saying this now (bishops, normal clergy etc) It seems to me it is only the orders themselves that are saying they don't need to give another 400 million. Well the orders and Donagh.

Myles, I'm not concerned about the Church being out of pocket but just trying to ensure that those liable are the ones to pay up. In this case it's the State and unfortunately the State cannot absolve itself of paying out because you don't want the taxpayer to foot the bill. If you want to use that approach, sure why not get the Church to bail out the banks or the eVoting machines or any other balls up made by FF and FG over the last 80 years? At the end of the day the State screwed up by placing the children in the hands of these people and it's those gombeens in charge of the State and running FF and FG that have questions to answer as to why they allowed this to continue. Just as the State were liable to pay out after the hepatitis and haemophilia cases  because the Blood Transfusion Service was carring out services on it's behalf then so they are laible for the compensation claims here. CORI and the rest may now be jumping on the bandwagon and saying the Church should pay more but that is more in response to the hysterical media reaction than anything else.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 28, 2009, 02:00:04 PM
A lot of people will not be satisfied until the Church is completely brought down.  For some people I can imagine (and please read the word "some" ) that this isn't about justice - this about bringing down the Church.
But aside from that let's not get away from the issue at hand.

So everyone agrees that the Church is to blame.  Some people agree that the State has to share a portion of that blame but this does not take anything away from the responsibility of the Church to atone for it's past sins.
The Church has agreed to pay out EUR 100million to the victims.  The State have yet to pledge anything.

When will people be satisfied?  When can we look forward and move on from this and make sure it never happens again?
When get we let the victims get on with the rest of their lives?

Present reasonable demands from the Church.  Present reasonable, intelligent suggestions.
Doing otherwise would suggest that you have no interest in justice for the victims but only to bash the Church and bring it down however possible.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: nifan on May 28, 2009, 02:08:52 PM
Quote
If you want to use that approach, sure why not get the Church to bail out the banks or the eVoting machines or any other balls up made by FF and FG over the last 80 years?

If it could be shown that church personnel caused and covered up the banking collapse you might be onto something.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 28, 2009, 02:12:45 PM

3. The individuals responsible should be held to account but going back to point one, present day Catholics should not be punished, which they will be if the Church assets are seized.


Really?
You see, when the State has to pay out compensation, that means every citizen/taxpayer gets punished, including eg those who are not Catholic, or who had no connection whatever with what went on, or who are in their late teens/early 20's etc and so were minors themselves when this abuse occurred.. Yet they cannot avoid their obligations as citizens/taxpayers by pointing out that "It was nothing to do with me".
Whereas, those people who are Members of the Catholic church and who contributed money to that organisation, including the Orders who committed the abuse, did so entirely voluntarily, even after stories of this abuse began to leak out.
Yet you would conclude that the former must pay, but the latter should not?
Whatever else your opinions, they are normally at least coherently expressed and containing a certain logic; nor are you a typical WUM. But I must say I find your comments on this matter so perverse that I cannot ascribe them to woolly-mindedness, but wilful contrariness (or somesuch).
Good to see you back again, EG. I’m sure you are not trying to provoke Donagh or anything as base as that. (You’re not, are you?)
I do agree with your line of reasoning here. I’ve no problem with that. (Well, maybe that agreement doesn’t extend to the last paragraph. I think that could be a matter of unfinished business with Donagh.)
However, I would suggest that all of us should bear in mind the terms of reference given to the commission and the conclusions it arrived at.; that’s the objective part; any consideration of moral culpability or financial redress is very much a subjective issue. It’s a case of us all of having an opinion and expressing it.
Personally, I do agree with the consensus now emerging that both State and Church have been found wanting in the discharge of their legal and moral obligations. The most common form of redress is financial restitution of some sort. Therefore, I say both Church and State are morally bound to make restitution. At the moment, the obligation to do so is a moral one.
Perhaps it will also become a legal one if a court of the land should find this to be the case.
I think the State failed in both its legal and moral duties in failing to adequately supervise the running of the religious institutions. I think  our present Taoiseach (or Chief in Roger-speak) was in no way involved in the perpetration of this scandal but as he willingly undertook the duties and responsibilities that go with his office, he and his administration must shoulder the State’s share of the blame.
Yes; I do accept that restitution should be made on behalf of all citizens of this state even though most of us were not around when much of the wrong doing took place.
We, the citizens of the Republic accept the rights and privileges that come with our citizenship so we also have to bear responsibility for the actions carried out on the state’s behalf, both past and present.
That includes my atheist buddy who moved his family back from England around ten years ago. It’s part of the baggage that comes with becoming an Irish citizen.
I’ve no problem with the State having to pony up.
The Church, through its religious congregations, assumed responsibility for the care and supervision of the children committed by the State into its collective care.
My parish priest is as sound a skin as you could meet; I would say he never willfully harmed a child and I would back the family silver on my assertion.

However, both he and I are both members of the Catholic Church. We find ourselves there by choice. We are consenting adults and both accept the responsibilities that come with membership. I feel my church is obliged to make financial redress as it is the only practical way to make reparation and I am a member of this Church..
My non-Catholic buddy should not be obliged to pay up in this way. Even if I decided to leave the Church after hearing of this scandal, I would still be obliged to accept my moral responsibilities as I was a member when the commission reported.
One final point; many of us confuse the Church with the Hierarchy. All Irish Catholics are bound to acknowledge our collective failings as we have inherited them from previous generations.
It’s a case of “If you are in, you accept the bad with the good,” and Irish Catholics are so by choice.
Anyway, EG, that’s a fine post and it gets “nihil obstat “ from me and my  Imprimatur as well but resist the temptation to wander off-topic, won’t you?  ;D
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 02:14:42 PM
I know it's only a straw poll and only 59 people have voted -


But does anyone want to comment on the outcome of the poll so far ???
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 02:21:40 PM
Quote
If you want to use that approach, sure why not get the Church to bail out the banks or the eVoting machines or any other balls up made by FF and FG over the last 80 years?

If it could be shown that church personnel caused and covered up the banking collapse you might be onto something.

It's not me that's onto it nifan, it's myles - he wants the Church to pick up the bills of the State.

At the end of the day these industrial schools were the young offender centres of their day. If I'm abused while in an offenders centre, my claim for compensation won't be against the Prison Officers Federation but against the individual and the State in who's care I had been placed. Do you think it would be appropriate for the Prison Officers Federation to meet my compensation costs?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 02:22:16 PM
I know it's only a straw poll and only 59 people have voted -


But does anyone want to comment on the outcome of the poll so far ???

I haven't vote, so can't see the result. What is it?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 02:29:16 PM
Jim in this case the State knew that the abuse was happening for decades and did nothing while the abuse continued. So for the State to start crying about it now is like the Church going after the descendants of Guglielmo because he f**ked up the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The Church has already agreed to hand over £100 million which is the right thing to do, just as it was correct for Volkswagen to do something similar for the Jews but there are people who will not be happy until they see the Church stripped of everything. The Church has conceded the principal and the cash so now there is nothing to be gained by further punishing modern Catholics for the sins of the past.

Donagh,

There may have been a time that the state knew what was going on but in recent times the church (or elements) within have been very evasive in their dealings with the state.  Either that or the Ryan and Fern reports are very very misleading.

Not everybody (victims in particular) would acknowledge that the church have conceeded the principle.  

Do you think that Cardinal Brady or Diarmuid Martin will not be "happy until they see the Church stripped of everything"?  Because they are unequivocal in their view of what the relevant orders should do.

I think you are correct in a sense that there is a swell of opinion against the worst offenders like the Christian Brothers but I think you'll find that this is because of recent behaviour as much as sins of the past.

I personally would be happy with the following:

1.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by the Brady and the Pope ackowledging the events and the churchs culpability.  I would like them to have some victims groups (1 in 4 etc.)  review the wording to avoid usage of terms such as "occasional lapses" etc.. to describe abuse.

2.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by Taosisech Cowen and President McAleese.  It should also be reviewed as above.

3.  Removal of church management (of any denomination) of state-run institutions.  

4.  An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.

5.  An audit of assets of religious orders named in Ryan report to determined their ability to pay compensation and set request compensation accordingly.  Legislation if necessary.

6. A criminal investiagation into the results of the Ryan report to prosecute sex offenders and those that aided them (within and without church).

7. If necessary a legal reform or constitional referendum on article 44 regarding rights of religious orders and property ensuring that the practice of placing property in trust is not abused to avoid compensation payments.

I don't any of the above will run the church into the ground.  In fact I suspect it would help grow their future numbers.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 02:45:46 PM
I know it's only a straw poll and only 59 people have voted -


But does anyone want to comment on the outcome of the poll so far ???

I haven't vote, so can't see the result. What is it?

10% say state should pay the most
40% say the Church should pay the most
50% say a 50/50 split between Church and State.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 28, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
There is too much being made of the money thing... getting these sadists/paedophiles into prison should be priority. The money debate is becoming a diversion.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 28, 2009, 02:53:45 PM
Jim in this case the State knew that the abuse was happening for decades and did nothing while the abuse continued. So for the State to start crying about it now is like the Church going after the descendants of Guglielmo because he f**ked up the Leaning Tower of Pisa. The Church has already agreed to hand over £100 million which is the right thing to do, just as it was correct for Volkswagen to do something similar for the Jews but there are people who will not be happy until they see the Church stripped of everything. The Church has conceded the principal and the cash so now there is nothing to be gained by further punishing modern Catholics for the sins of the past.

Donagh,

There may have been a time that the state knew what was going on but in recent times the church (or elements) within have been very evasive in their dealings with the state.  Either that or the Ryan and Fern reports are very very misleading.

Not everybody (victims in particular) would acknowledge that the church have conceeded the principle.  

Do you think that Cardinal Brady or Diarmuid Martin will not be "happy until they see the Church stripped of everything"?  Because they are unequivocal in their view of what the relevant orders should do.

I think you are correct in a sense that there is a swell of opinion against the worst offenders like the Christian Brothers but I think you'll find that this is because of recent behaviour as much as sins of the past.

I personally would be happy with the following:

1.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by the Brady and the Pope ackowledging the events and the churchs culpability.  I would like them to have some victims groups (1 in 4 etc.)  review the wording to avoid usage of terms such as "occasional lapses" etc.. to describe abuse.

2.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by Taosisech Cowen and President McAleese.  It should also be reviewed as above.

3.  Removal of church management (of any denomination) of state-run institutions.  

4.  An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.

5.  An audit of assets of religious orders named in Ryan report to determined their ability to pay compensation and set request compensation accordingly.  Legislation if necessary.

6. A criminal investiagation into the results of the Ryan report to prosecute sex offenders and those that aided them (within and without church).

7. If necessary a legal reform or constitional referendum on article 44 regarding rights of religious orders and property ensuring that the practice of placing property in trust is not abused to avoid compensation payments.

I don't any of the above will run the church into the ground.  In fact I suspect it would help grow their future numbers.

Good work Jim.  At last  - the start of something constructive.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on May 28, 2009, 03:04:16 PM
Why Iceman? Is putting them in jail not constructive. In the film Sleepers the best part was the evil doers getting their just reward.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Evil Genius on May 28, 2009, 03:11:53 PM


Good to see you back again, EG. I’m sure you are not trying to provoke Donagh or anything as base as that. (You’re not, are you?)
I do agree with your line of reasoning here. I’ve no problem with that. (Well, maybe that agreement doesn’t extend to the last paragraph. I think that could be a matter of unfinished business with Donagh.)
However, I would suggest that all of us should bear in mind the terms of reference given to the commission and the conclusions it arrived at.; that’s the objective part; any consideration of moral culpability or financial redress is very much a subjective issue. It’s a case of us all of having an opinion and expressing it.
Personally, I do agree with the consensus now emerging that both State and Church have been found wanting in the discharge of their legal and moral obligations. The most common form of redress is financial restitution of some sort. Therefore, I say both Church and State are morally bound to make restitution. At the moment, the obligation to do so is a moral one.
Perhaps it will also become a legal one if a court of the land should find this to be the case.
I think the State failed in both its legal and moral duties in failing to adequately supervise the running of the religious institutions. I think  our present Taoiseach (or Chief in Roger-speak) was in no way involved in the perpetration of this scandal but as he willingly undertook the duties and responsibilities that go with his office, he and his administration must shoulder the State’s share of the blame.
Yes; I do accept that restitution should be made on behalf of all citizens of this state even though most of us were not around when much of the wrong doing took place.
We, the citizens of the Republic accept the rights and privileges that come with our citizenship so we also have to bear responsibility for the actions carried out on the state’s behalf, both past and present.
That includes my atheist buddy who moved his family back from England around ten years ago. It’s part of the baggage that comes with becoming an Irish citizen.
I’ve no problem with the State having to pony up.
The Church, through its religious congregations, assumed responsibility for the care and supervision of the children committed by the State into its collective care.
My parish priest is as sound a skin as you could meet; I would say he never willfully harmed a child and I would back the family silver on my assertion.

However, both he and I are both members of the Catholic Church. We find ourselves there by choice. We are consenting adults and both accept the responsibilities that come with membership. I feel my church is obliged to make financial redress as it is the only practical way to make reparation and I am a member of this Church..
My non-Catholic buddy should not be obliged to pay up in this way. Even if I decided to leave the Church after hearing of this scandal, I would still be obliged to accept my moral responsibilities as I was a member when the commission reported.
One final point; many of us confuse the Church with the Hierarchy. All Irish Catholics are bound to acknowledge our collective failings as we have inherited them from previous generations.
It’s a case of “If you are in, you accept the bad with the good,” and Irish Catholics are so by choice.
Anyway, EG, that’s a fine post and it gets “nihil obstat “ from me and my  Imprimatur as well but resist the temptation to wander off-topic, won’t you?  ;D

Not trying to provoke, nor is it because it is Donagh - my view would be the same regardless of who it was was expressing such opinions.

As regards the rest, considering there appears to be a broad consensus in the Republic over the gravity and extent of the scandal etc, I'm genuinely astonished that those responsible haven't even been identified, never mind lost their jobs, never mind been prosecuted etc.

Compare that with the relatively much more trivial (imo) subject of MP's expenses in the UK. Such has been the public anger that 10 MP's (so far) have been disciplined or stood down, with possibly many more to follow. Moreover, this has caused the Speaker to be (effectively) sacked, for the first time in 300 years, with potentially far-reaching Constitutional reform liable to follow. And despite this being something which affects all parties, it is entirely possible that this will be the final nail in Labour's hopes of forming the next Government.

Now as a UK Taxpayer, I am as angry as anyone at the thought of my hard-earned going towards eg some Toff's Moat, or some so-called Socialist's "second home" 120 miles from either her Constituency or from Parliament. But that is as nothing compared with what I would feel if my taxes were going towards mitigating the moral and legal obligations of an organisation which condoned and covered-up some of the most vile and endemic abuse of its kind witnessed anywhere in the developed world, whilst all the time the actual perpetrators appear to have received some sort of immunity from prosecution.

In fact if anything, that final aspect (immunity) is even more shocking to me than the actual abuse itself  :o
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 28, 2009, 03:14:39 PM
Why Iceman? Is putting them in jail not constructive. In the film Sleepers the best part was the evil doers getting their just reward.
Putting them in jail is one of many suggestions bundled in with a lot of other whimsical ideas that are all talk and no sense.
I don't agree with everything Jim has suggested but at least he is being sensible and realistic about the whole thing.  It's a refreshing change from the mass chant of "Barabbas"
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 04:03:13 PM
Donagh,

There may have been a time that the state knew what was going on but in recent times the church (or elements) within have been very evasive in their dealings with the state.  Either that or the Ryan and Fern reports are very very misleading.

Not everybody (victims in particular) would acknowledge that the church have conceeded the principle.  

Do you think that Cardinal Brady or Diarmuid Martin will not be "happy until they see the Church stripped of everything"?  Because they are unequivocal in their view of what the relevant orders should do.

I think you are correct in a sense that there is a swell of opinion against the worst offenders like the Christian Brothers but I think you'll find that this is because of recent behaviour as much as sins of the past.

I personally would be happy with the following:

1.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by the Brady and the Pope ackowledging the events and the churchs culpability.  I would like them to have some victims groups (1 in 4 etc.)  review the wording to avoid usage of terms such as "occasional lapses" etc.. to describe abuse.

2.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by Taosisech Cowen and President McAleese.  It should also be reviewed as above.

3.  Removal of church management (of any denomination) of state-run institutions.  

4.  An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.

5.  An audit of assets of religious orders named in Ryan report to determined their ability to pay compensation and set request compensation accordingly.  Legislation if necessary.

6. A criminal investiagation into the results of the Ryan report to prosecute sex offenders and those that aided them (within and without church).

7. If necessary a legal reform or constitional referendum on article 44 regarding rights of religious orders and property ensuring that the practice of placing property in trust is not abused to avoid compensation payments.

I don't any of the above will run the church into the ground.  In fact I suspect it would help grow their future numbers.



Jim it seems that you are actually one of the few on this thread who understands that I am not absolving the religious orders of any responsibility so I find it difficult to object to anything you suggest there. I would expect that in light of your Point 5, you would also have no objection if the £100 million promised under the original deal was subsequently reduced?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 04:18:28 PM
Donagh,

There may have been a time that the state knew what was going on but in recent times the church (or elements) within have been very evasive in their dealings with the state.  Either that or the Ryan and Fern reports are very very misleading.

Not everybody (victims in particular) would acknowledge that the church have conceeded the principle.  

Do you think that Cardinal Brady or Diarmuid Martin will not be "happy until they see the Church stripped of everything"?  Because they are unequivocal in their view of what the relevant orders should do.

I think you are correct in a sense that there is a swell of opinion against the worst offenders like the Christian Brothers but I think you'll find that this is because of recent behaviour as much as sins of the past.

I personally would be happy with the following:

1.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by the Brady and the Pope ackowledging the events and the churchs culpability.  I would like them to have some victims groups (1 in 4 etc.)  review the wording to avoid usage of terms such as "occasional lapses" etc.. to describe abuse.

2.  A reiteration of apology and acknowledgement by Taosisech Cowen and President McAleese.  It should also be reviewed as above.

3.  Removal of church management (of any denomination) of state-run institutions.  

4.  An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.

5.  An audit of assets of religious orders named in Ryan report to determined their ability to pay compensation and set request compensation accordingly.  Legislation if necessary.

6. A criminal investiagation into the results of the Ryan report to prosecute sex offenders and those that aided them (within and without church).

7. If necessary a legal reform or constitional referendum on article 44 regarding rights of religious orders and property ensuring that the practice of placing property in trust is not abused to avoid compensation payments.

I don't any of the above will run the church into the ground.  In fact I suspect it would help grow their future numbers.



Jim it seems that you are actually one of the few on this thread who understands that I am not absolving the religious orders of any responsibility so I find it difficult to object to anything you suggest there. I would expect that in light of your Point 5, you would also have no objection if the £100 million promised under the original deal was subsequently reduced?

Donagh,

If that is how it turned out based on an open and fair audit and process I would have no objecton, assuming other points were delivered.

If the other points, most particularly 1 and 4 are not delivered I would be in favour of going after the church for everything, regardless of consequences for them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 04:28:47 PM
A lot of people will not be satisfied until the Church is completely brought down.  For some people I can imagine (and please read the word "some" ) that this isn't about justice - this about bringing down the Church.
But aside from that let's not get away from the issue at hand.

So everyone agrees that the Church is to blame.  Some people agree that the State has to share a portion of that blame but this does not take anything away from the responsibility of the Church to atone for it's past sins.
The Church has agreed to pay out EUR 100million to the victims.  The State have yet to pledge anything.

When will people be satisfied?  When can we look forward and move on from this and make sure it never happens again?
When get we let the victims get on with the rest of their lives?

Present reasonable demands from the Church.  Present reasonable, intelligent suggestions.
Doing otherwise would suggest that you have no interest in justice for the victims but only to bash the Church and bring it down however possible.

Thats bullshit and you know it. The state is paying for everything over and above 100 million promised by the Church Orders. The current estimate on the end bill is 1 billion. That means the Orders who inflicted the abuse, covered it up and obstructed the enquiry are deemed 10% liable and the tax payer 90%. I can concede the state are without fault but if it was up to me those percentages would be reversed. However, a 50:50 arrangement would be a big improvement.

When will people be satisfied and move on? Oh I'm sure the victims are awful sorry for holding things up! I think what they want is justice. Genuine apologies and acceptance of the truth. Do a google and read some of their statements and you'll see what they want. To the best of my knowledge (I could be wrong) neither you or Donagh have made any comment on the fact that the modern church has obstructed the investigation and fought every allegation brought against it tooth and nail. That is why the mealy mouthed apologies mean nothing when accompanied by the language of dilution, which is what we get with every apology.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on May 28, 2009, 04:30:36 PM
A lot of people will not be satisfied until the Church is completely brought down.  For some people I can imagine (and please read the word "some" ) that this isn't about justice - this about bringing down the Church.
But aside from that let's not get away from the issue at hand.

So everyone agrees that the Church is to blame.  Some people agree that the State has to share a portion of that blame but this does not take anything away from the responsibility of the Church to atone for it's past sins.
The Church has agreed to pay out EUR 100million to the victims.  The State have yet to pledge anything.

When will people be satisfied?  When can we look forward and move on from this and make sure it never happens again?
When get we let the victims get on with the rest of their lives?

Present reasonable demands from the Church.  Present reasonable, intelligent suggestions.
Doing otherwise would suggest that you have no interest in justice for the victims but only to bash the Church and bring it down however possible.

That is not correct. The Church's EUR100million was agreed as 10% of the total. The State has agreed to pay the rest. 90%. That is why people are annoyed.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 04:31:56 PM
Out of curiosity can anyone tell me who was the 90 year old brought from Rome as referred to by the gentleman on Questions and Answers on Monday night, who said that the victim were telling lies ?????
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 04:50:57 PM

If the other points, most particularly 1 and 4 are not delivered I would be in favour of going after the church for everything, regardless of consequences for them.


Even if that means the closure of essential services? I'm thinking in particular here of Sister Consilios in Newry which is the only emergency admittance drug and alcohol treatment centre in the north.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 28, 2009, 04:57:22 PM
Quote
Not trying to provoke, nor is it because it is Donagh - my view would be the same regardless of who it was was expressing such opinions
.

My apologies; I accept what you say. Maybe I wasn’t being totally serious here.

Quote
As regards the rest, considering there appears to be a broad consensus in the Republic over the gravity and extent of the scandal etc, I'm genuinely astonished that those responsible haven't even been identified, never mind lost their jobs, never mind been prosecuted etc.

It is important for us all to realise that this was a commission of inquiry and not a criminal investigation. Indications are that the DPP’s office is studying the findings of the report and prosecutions may very well follow.


Quote
In fact if anything, that final aspect (immunity) is even more shocking to me than the actual abuse itself 

I do not think immunity has been guaranteed to any specific individual or organisation. Indeed, it could well be that persons not referred to in this report (lay teachers and department inspectors for instance) could find themselves facing criminal charges.
This has not been explicitly stated but it could arise from any follow up investigations by the gardai.

Quote
4. An issuing of papal decree with clear and unequivocal terms superceeding past decrees (Crimens Sollicitationis etc..) indicating that sexual abuse is handled as a crime by civil authorities.
I think Jim’s point must be followed up. In the past various church authorities tried to hide behind Canon Law when asked to release evidence to the gardai.
The former archbishop of Dublin, O’Connell, said at one stage that he was bound by the dictates of Canon Law when he refused to co-operate with an inquiry. (The Ferns one I think.) To this, the then Minister for Justice (Michael McDowell) retorted that Canon Law had as much legal standing as the rules of a golf club would have on its members.
Fair dues to him; Rome must acknowledge that the law of the land takes precedence and that its internal rules apply only to its own members.

Quote
I would expect that in light of your Point 5, you would also have no objection if the £100 million promised under the original deal was subsequently reduced?

 I can only speak for myself. If a court of law found this to be the case, I would abide by its verdict.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 04:59:31 PM
Even if that means the closure of essential services? I'm thinking in particular here of Sister Consilios in Newry which is the only emergency admittance drug and alcohol treatment centre in the north.

If they cannot unreservedly apologise and remove the rules/canon laws/policy that contributed to covering up what happened, then unfortunately could happen.  That said I doubt it would.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 05:04:41 PM
Thats bullshit and you know it. The state is paying for everything over and above 100 million promised by the Church Orders. The current estimate on the end bill is 1 billion. That means the Orders who inflicted the abuse, covered it up and obstructed the enquiry are deemed 10% liable and the tax payer 90%. I can concede the state are without fault but if it was up to me those percentages would be reversed. However, a 50:50 arrangement would be a big improvement.

Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment? The victims were placed in the abusive environment by the State in full knowledge they would be abused. The citizens of this country kept putting the same corrupt b**tards into power knowing they would do nothing. In such instances, the buck stops with the State, the people who run the State and ultimately the fools that put them there.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 05:09:24 PM
Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment?

Donagh,

The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 05:12:58 PM
Better late than never !!!!!


Evidence of abuse sought by gardaí
  Thursday, 28 May 2009 16:58
The Government is encouraging anyone who has information about child abuse in Catholic institutions to come forward to gardaí.

Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern stressed that the more evidence provided, the greater the chances of securing convictions.

However, he acknowledged that there would be difficulties in proving offences from a long time ago.

AdvertisementHe said witnesses could come forward in complete confidence and should contact the office of the Garda Assistant Commissioner appointed to examine the Ryan Report.

A special garda phone number has also been set up: 01-6663612.

The Dáil has unanimously passed an all-party motion calling on the Congregations to make further substantial contributions by way of reparation to the victims of institutional abuse.

It called on the congregations to make further substantial contributions, including to a trust set up and managed by the State for the support of victims and to other education and welfare purposes.

The motion also apologises to the victims of abuse for the failure to intervene, and says support for them must be the priority for all concerned.

A full two-day debate on the Report of the Commission on Child Abuse will be held when the Dáil returns after next week's local and European elections.

Minister for Health Mary Harney, who was taking the Order of Business for the Government, told the Dáil she did not want to pre-empt the outcome of discussions with the congregations.

However she added that the Taoiseach would be taking a 'robust' approach in those talks.

Meanwhile, Labour's Joan Burton has called on the Government to verify if the Ryan Commission was planning to destroy documents it gathered in its compilation of the report on institutional abuse.

She said such an outcome would be an appalling insult to the victims of abuse.

McAleese backs abuse prosecutions

President Mary McAleese believes people should face prosecutions as a result of the Ryan Report into child abuse.

Mrs McAleese was speaking in Boston on the final leg of an official visit to the US state of Massachusetts. She has been meeting Irish communities and promoting Irish industry and tourism.

Her visit also coincided with a considerable amount of publicity in US media on the fall-out from the Ryan Report.

In an interview with RTÉ News, the President said the report showed a catalogue of criminal offences, and that people who committed these awful crimes against innocent children should face prosecution.

Prosecution might not bring closure, but it would bring justice, she added.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 05:23:33 PM
The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.

Jim the Vatican didn't issue any such dictat and even if it had it would make any difference. Those responsible for the abuse and cover-up are still bound by the laws of the State and should be prosecuted accordingly. The State failed in it's duty of care to it's most vulnerable citizens and should also have to answer for that.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2009, 05:50:24 PM
The Prison Officers Federation is a representative group, the catholic church is far more than that.  The day the vatican issued a dictat that abuse was not to be reported to civil authorities (with a punishment of excommunication) then the church as a body took on a role much greater than representation.   With that role came responsibility and liability.  This responsiblity was not foisted upon them, they took it of their own volition and need to face up to that.

Jim the Vatican didn't issue any such dictat and even if it had it would make any difference. Those responsible for the abuse and cover-up are still bound by the laws of the State and should be prosecuted accordingly. The State failed in it's duty of care to it's most vulnerable citizens and should also have to answer for that.

Donagh,

The Ferns inquiry stated taht the document "Crimens Sollicitationis" from Pope John XXIII "specifically  dealt with how priests who abused children were to be handled and imposed a high degree of secrecy on all Church officials involved in such case".   "Automatic excomunication should be imposed on any person breaking the oath of secrecy".  I don't know anymore only that is what the inquiry stated.

The day that document was published was the day they took responsibility.  I can't agree that this makes no difference.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 07:46:12 PM
The Ferns inquiry stated taht the document "Crimens Sollicitationis" from Pope John XXIII "specifically  dealt with how priests who abused children were to be handled and imposed a high degree of secrecy on all Church officials involved in such case".   "Automatic excomunication should be imposed on any person breaking the oath of secrecy".  I don't know anymore only that is what the inquiry stated.

The day that document was published was the day they took responsibility.  I can't agree that this makes no difference.


Where does it say that they shouldn't be reported to the civil authorities?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 28, 2009, 08:34:53 PM
Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 09:09:57 PM
Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.

I was curious about the John XXIII reference so I Wikied there to see what it is all about and this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis)

That document relates to solicitations by a priest during Confession. I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix. My Latin isn't the best so I can't comment directly on the source but here is a comment from Wiki:

The document dealt exclusively with the procedure to be followed in connection with a denunciation to the ecclesiastical authority of a priest guilty of solicitation in Confession or of similar acts. It imposed secrecy about the conduct of the ecclesiastical trial, not allowing, for instance, statements made during the trial by witnesses or by the accused to be published. But it did not in any way impose silence on those who were victims of the priest's conduct or who had learned of it in ways unconnected with the ecclesiastical trial.

"These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."
-- Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 28, 2009, 10:01:41 PM
Thats bullshit and you know it. The state is paying for everything over and above 100 million promised by the Church Orders. The current estimate on the end bill is 1 billion. That means the Orders who inflicted the abuse, covered it up and obstructed the enquiry are deemed 10% liable and the tax payer 90%. I can concede the state are without fault but if it was up to me those percentages would be reversed. However, a 50:50 arrangement would be a big improvement.

Myles you still haven't put a case as to why those figures should be reversed. It wasn't the Church that carried out the abuse but individuals who were members of the Church. Do you hold the Prison Officers Federation responsible for abuse of prisoners locked up at the moment? The victims were placed in the abusive environment by the State in full knowledge they would be abused. The citizens of this country kept putting the same corrupt b**tards into power knowing they would do nothing. In such instances, the buck stops with the State, the people who run the State and ultimately the fools that put them there.

Plenty of people have made the case already with a range of reason but if you want mine on top of that then fine. The church ran the institutions. The churches representatives raped, abused tortured children from the ages of FOUR to 18. The report says that this abuse was Endemic and systematic. That means there was not the couple of bad apples and that the whole system was set up to brutalise. I already relayed a story from the report how a christian brother who was not violent when he started in the school was forced to be violent by his colleagues. When he finally turned violent he was greeted with a round of applause by all his fellow "teachers". The state did not rape, abuse or torture children. Any child that tried to report what was happening got the shite kicked out of them. Any allegations made were buried and sent to the VATICAN for hiding. All efforts over the years to get to the truth have been met with absolute defence by the churches representative who increased the hurt to victims by insinuating they were liars and in it for the money. Right up until this report was put out the church has resisted and obstructed the investigation - the state did not.

Now your case is that the government is responsible as they placed the kids into these institutions. That ignores the times that were in it back then. The church was more powerful than the state. People were afraid of the church, afraid they'd be refused communion. People who fell out with the church were banished and were pariahs in society. TD's and ministers were no different, the church had a stranglehold on the state. These schools were set up by the church to "correct" young fallen people. There are plenty of stories in the report of courts being "instructed" by the church on what sentances to give kids. 2 years for stealing a bike I read yesterday in one of the papers, the judge wanted to give 6 months but the church said they would not take him in unless it was for two years. The judge gave in. That was the power they yielded. That was the power they abused - just like the FF politicans of today that you are always (righfully) pulling up on their corruption.

Some of the institutions were full of fallen girls who committed the crime of becoming pregant out of marriage. Some were full of orphans. None of these were sent to  these places by the state. They were sent by the priests of the country. Fallen girls were hounded out of parishes by priests who threatened the fires of hell on their families. I have a friend who was adopted. He told me how he met his mother for the first time when he turned 30 yrs old, she was forced to give him up to an orphanage by her family due to pressure from a priest.

The church had it filthy claws all over Irish society. In its government and in its institutions. It is absolutley vastly in the wrong here as is the state to a much lesser degree.

I am no friend of  the church. I am a republican and the church have been no friend of republicanism for 100's of years. I believe they have too much power in this country. I believe a church should be concerned with spirituality and nothing more in a state. I believe the church has absolutley no place in a primary school to warp the mind of the most vunerable in society. So quite frankly I don't give too shits where they get the money to fork up for what they owe - thats their problem (just like it would be mine if I was liable for damages against someone).

The state is not without blame but today the state is taking 90% of it which we, taxpayers in the south must now pay for. The church should be taking the majority
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 11:01:14 PM
"Whoever done the work, it was done in the name of the State."
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Donagh on May 28, 2009, 11:30:32 PM
Myles I’ve a number of issues with you post. Firstly the Church did not run the industrial schools, but individual members of the Church ran them on behalf of the State. Those people may have been representatives of their Orders but in their role as teachers and warders, they were primarily representatives of the State.

I haven’t denied the abuse was systemic.

Your claim about allegations being sent to the Vatican for hiding needs to be substantiated in that it’s almost DaVinci Codesque in terms of the conspiracy theory it conjures. What makes you think that the Church had total control over all complaints that came in? Did the government inspectorates report directly to the Vatican?

You say the Church was more powerful than the State. If that was so then the State was again failing in it’s duties.

You say the priests took children away from their mothers. If that was so then it was illegal. If it was allowed then again the State was failing in it’s constitutional obligations in terms of caring for it’s citizens.

Now, I guess I’m going to have to put a disclaimer in here. I am in no way defending the actions of the people involved in the abuse nor am I defending the privileged position the Church had in Irish society. I believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras ‘Republic’ to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own.  

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 28, 2009, 11:35:42 PM
Remember the way the Bishop used to throw the ball up for the start of the All ireland finals and the captains had to kiss his ring before the match ???


What the f--k was all that about ??????????
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on May 29, 2009, 12:02:23 AM
Have to agree with Donagh, the people elected politicians to uphold and defend the state and its citizens. That those politicians clearly failed, has now been firmly established. Though it has to be said that the few brave politicians who stood up to the Bishops eg. Peader o Donnell and Noel Browne, received little support from the public at large and in many cases were vilified. There are no clean hands here, and lots of blame to go around. Much has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on May 29, 2009, 08:03:09 AM
Quote
Much has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche

I've said it in a couple of my contributions to this thread but the republic was the equivalent of what is now known as a fundamentalist Islamic state - Think Afghanistan under the Taliban. Saudi Arabia currently or Iran post 1979 and you get an idea of what it was like in the Republic. The Church was all powerful and as we know "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Quote
I believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras ‘Republic’ to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own. 

Agree 100%. Interestingly I quote this segment of the proclamation to every politician who comes to my door looking for a vote - The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

However remember that God was invoked in the proclamation as well  We place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God. Whose blessing we invoke upon our arms, and we pray that no one who serves that cause will dishonour it by cowardice, inhumanity, or rapine
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 29, 2009, 08:06:59 AM
Have to agree with Donagh, the people elected politicians to uphold and defend the state and its citizens. That those politicians clearly failed, has now been firmly established. Though it has to be said that the few brave politicians who stood up to the Bishops eg. Peader o Donnell and Noel Browne, received little support from the public at large and in many cases were vilified. There are no clean hands here, and lots of blame to go around. Much has been made of the cultural norms of the times, it would therefore be interesting to know did a similar state of affairs exist in any other catholic country, or was it just part of an Irish psyche

My point is that the church apply huge pschological pressure on our people and on our politicians in order to have the country run they way they wanted. You can ignore this by blaming the state for allowing it to happen but people were concerned with getting  to heaven back then and absolutlety feared the church.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 29, 2009, 09:30:33 AM
Its a reasonable assumption Donagh, and is open to that interpretation, intended or not.

I was curious about the John XXIII reference so I Wikied there to see what it is all about and this is what I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimen_sollicitationis)

That document relates to solicitations by a priest during Confession. I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix. My Latin isn't the best so I can't comment directly on the source but here is a comment from Wiki:

The document dealt exclusively with the procedure to be followed in connection with a denunciation to the ecclesiastical authority of a priest guilty of solicitation in Confession or of similar acts. It imposed secrecy about the conduct of the ecclesiastical trial, not allowing, for instance, statements made during the trial by witnesses or by the accused to be published. But it did not in any way impose silence on those who were victims of the priest's conduct or who had learned of it in ways unconnected with the ecclesiastical trial.

"These matters are confidential only to the procedures within the Church, but do not preclude in any way for these matters to be brought to civil authorities for proper legal adjudication. The Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People of June, 2002, approved by the Vatican, requires that credible allegations of sexual abuse of children be reported to legal authorities."
-- Archbishop Joseph Fiorenza

Donagh,

That is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 29, 2009, 10:04:54 AM
All last week and all this week I've been listening to older people in their 70s and 80s and the very interesting thing is that the Ryan report seems to have lanced a boil. All of a sudden this older generation are starting to talk about what happened back then and whilst it's by no means a revolution, I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it. Talking to a very old maan this morning, he was telling the stroy of a Christian Brother who had a cane and wherever the cane landed, too bad. He was able to recount stories and name individuals abused by these men. I felt that there was a sense of relief that he was now able to share these stories as he said that all along people wouldn't have believed them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 29, 2009, 01:20:03 PM
Quote
That is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.

You are spot on there, Jim.
I believe the bishop you are referring to is Desmond Connell, the former archbishop of Dublin. This is the man who quoted Caon Law when he refused to let the police authorities examine the files the church had on child abuse cases in the diocese.
I mentioned earlier that to his credit, Michael McDowell responded by saying Canon Law had no more legal standing that the rules of a golf club had on its members.
Connell was to go on to have a very public and bitter dust up with his incoming successor, the present archbishop, Diarmuid Martin.
This happened about 5 years ago. Does anyone here remember it?
Connell insisted on holding onto the files in his possession but Dr. Martin said he would co-operate fully with requests for disclosure.
We cannot forget the case of John Magee, the bishop of Cloyne either. Last year Magee, was accused by an internal church inquiry of taking minimal action over accusations against two priests. The inquiry was to find his child protection guidelines were both inadequate and downright dangerous.

Fr. Tom Doyle is a frequent contributor to RTE’s Morning Ireland radio show and writes in a number of Catholic papers and magazines. Heis a canon lawyer and was a consultant to the Dublin archdiocese’s commission on clerical abuse.

What he had to say on the subject of ‘Crimen Sollicitationis' can be read here.
http://ncronline.org/node/4530 (http://ncronline.org/node/4530)

His reaction to the recent commission’s report can be read here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee)

For those in a hurry, this is his summing up of the commission’s report:


The sadistic world of these institutions is not that of some crazed secular dictatorship. It is not the world of an uncivilized tribal culture that ravaged the weak in ages long past. This report describes a world created and sustained by the Roman Catholic Church. The horrors inflicted on these helpless, trapped children -- rapes, beatings, molestation, starvation, isolation -- all were inflicted by men and women who had vowed themselves to the service of people in the name of Christ's love.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 29, 2009, 01:31:12 PM
Quote
That is the "headline" part of the document.  The canon lawyer that the Ferns inquiry used pointed out that it is common practice to include other items within.  Child abuse is covered and it is categorically stated it should be kept in-house.  Also this was part of the case Colm O'Gorman took against the church, a case he won.   We also had the case of an arch-bishop saying he didn't "lie" to the inquiry by withholding information because he was just following Canon Law.

Also with regard to "I think Jim is being a little disingenuous throwing that one into the mix".  I didn't put it in the mix.  I quoted the Ferns Report which put it in the mix.  So the author of the Ferns Report might be disingenuous................................

You can't deny that this stuff was kept secret and it has been shown this wasn't by accident.

You are spot on there, Jim.
I believe the bishop you are referring to is Desmond Connell, the former archbishop of Dublin. This is the man who quoted Caon Law when he refused to let the police authorities examine the files the church had on child abuse cases in the diocese.
I mentioned earlier that to his credit, Michael McDowell responded by saying Canon Law had no more legal standing that the rules of a golf club had on its members.
Connell was to go on to have a very public and bitter dust up with his incoming successor, the present archbishop, Diarmuid Martin.
This happened about 5 years ago. Does anyone here remember it?
Connell insisted on holding onto the files in his possession but Dr. Martin said he would co-operate fully with requests for disclosure.
We cannot forget the case of John Magee, the bishop of Cloyne either. Last year Magee, was accused by an internal church inquiry of taking minimal action over accusations against two priests. The inquiry was to find his child protection guidelines were both inadequate and downright dangerous.
Fr. Tom Doyle is a frequent contributor to RTE’s Morning Ireland radio show and writes in a number of Catholic papers and magazines. Heis a canon lawyer and was a consultant to the Dublin archdiocese’s commission on clerical abuse.

What he had to say on the subject of ‘Crimen Sollicitationis' can be read here.
http://ncronline.org/node/4530 (http://ncronline.org/node/4530)

His reaction to the recent commission’s report can be read here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/08/child-abuse-catholicism-john-magee)

For those in a hurry, this is his summing up of the commission’s report:


The sadistic world of these institutions is not that of some crazed secular dictatorship. It is not the world of an uncivilized tribal culture that ravaged the weak in ages long past. This report describes a world created and sustained by the Roman Catholic Church. The horrors inflicted on these helpless, trapped children -- rapes, beatings, molestation, starvation, isolation -- all were inflicted by men and women who had vowed themselves to the service of people in the name of Christ's love.



He still got the backing of Cardinal Brady, the leader of the Catholic church in Ireland.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 29, 2009, 01:54:01 PM
Now, I guess I’m going to have to put a disclaimer in here. I am in no way defending the actions of the people involved in the abuse nor am I defending the privileged position the Church had in Irish society. I believe the state that was established in the south and DeValeras ‘Republic’ to be a betrayal of everything that was fought for during the War of Independence but it was the politicians of FF and FG that betrayed the republican ideal and the Irish people by putting the Church in that privileged position. The Church should not and should never have any say in the affairs of State. That is not to say that it doesn't have a role in society looking after it's own.  

Great post!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 29, 2009, 02:53:16 PM
Aye, unlike your last one where you told a blatant untruth about the government (ie taxpayer) havnig committed zero to the victim of abuse.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Franko on May 29, 2009, 03:50:45 PM
Ok Donagh, you are adamant that the Church has no legal obligation to pay restitution to the victims of this abuse.  (I disagree by the way).

However, would you not agree that the moral obligation to provide some sort of recompense to victims here is somewhat greater and the ratio of moral wrongdoing here is much greater than 90:10?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on May 29, 2009, 04:16:10 PM
All last week and all this week I've been listening to older people in their 70s and 80s and the very interesting thing is that the Ryan report seems to have lanced a boil. All of a sudden this older generation are starting to talk about what happened back then and whilst it's by no means a revolution, I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it. Talking to a very old maan this morning, he was telling the stroy of a Christian Brother who had a cane and wherever the cane landed, too bad. He was able to recount stories and name individuals abused by these men. I felt that there was a sense of relief that he was now able to share these stories as he said that all along people wouldn't have believed them.
As harrowing as this report is, it does not compare to the impact of a live witness.
Also if you listen to what the abused say, you will not hear any mention of financial compensation.
I am puzzled by the focus in this thread about who is responsible for financial compensation.
One of the big crimes has been the exchange of prosecution for the promise of compensation.
And imo, the squabble about who pays what, is disrespectful to the abused, ignores what the abused are saying.
So far the priorites have been dictated by lawyers hired by the State to prevent prosecution and it has been swallowed hook line and sinker by the population.
There is no legal barrier towards prosecuting those accused. The State were also complicit, no wonder the government don't want that can of worms opened.
If the abusers can not be prosecuted then the the institution itself should be held accountable. The abusers and the particular institution they represented can not be separated from any guilt. Part of the State's responsibility is to ensure that the process is allowed to mature and listen seriously to the abused.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Iceman on May 29, 2009, 05:15:56 PM
Aye, unlike your last one where you told a blatant untruth about the government (ie taxpayer) havnig committed zero to the victim of abuse.
I didn't blatantly tell lies - I made an uninformed comment Myles - hang me from the nearest tree sure.
Man but you are a serious twister.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on May 30, 2009, 12:50:47 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Orders disagree on involving wider Church
Saturday, 30 May 2009 10:18
The 18 Catholic religious congregations criticised by the Child Abuse Commission have said they do not see a role for the broader Irish Church in examining their failures in their duty of care to children.

After meeting yesterday in Dublin, the 18 orders cited by the Commission promised to continue examining its finding that they had failed to listen to children abused in their institutions.

Belfast-based Bishop Noel Treanor said last Sunday that this would require an inter-disciplinary discussion with Catholics and others, and would involve the abused themselves.

AdvertisementSr Elizabeth Maxwell, a spokeswoman for the 18 orders, has told RTÉ News that she did not see how other church bodies here could become involved because the congregations concerned were autonomous.

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.

The service has been extended during what the HSE calls 'this critical time'.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on May 31, 2009, 02:37:57 AM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church (suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on May 31, 2009, 12:09:15 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church (suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????
I think you are being extremely harsh here, GDA.
Orangeman, back in post # 377 had some very apt observations to pass on. I’m repeating one of them here:
“I feel that there is a sense that they are at long last able to talk about it.”
The sense of injustice and hurt the victims must have endured over the decades must have been too great to comprehend. I can well understand the sense of relief they now feel since their sufferings have been acknowledged.
I’d say many are now coming forward because they are now being believed.
Are there spongers getting ready to cash in on other’s misfortunes?
Quite possibly there are. It is up to the regulatory bodies to sort out the wheat from the chaff, isn’t it?
To prove their eligibility for compensation, applicants will have their cases scrutinised; I don’t see a canteen line scenario, with lines of octogenarians lining up in a queue with their hands outstretched for their share of the loot..
Even if a trickle of bogus claims were to get through, that shouldn’t detract for the right of genuine claimants to receive what they are deemed to be entitled to.
I haven’t heard of one single victim asking for money. All without exception asked for justice and acknowledgement of the wrongs done to them.
Personally, I have no problem whatsoever in denouncing the role of Rome in the whole sordid affair. How could I?
Rome stinks of complicity and tacit acceptance of what went on, the Curia has had files on every allegation made in its keeping. It has kept them secret and tried to hinder external investigation every step of the way. That has been Rome’s policy not because it helps the cause of justice but has been followed to preserve the Church’s assets.
I do know many clerics; decent, unassuming men who went about their ministries without looking for recognition or reward. They were doing what they accepted was their duty, plain and simple. There is no way in which their good works can be set off against the depredations of their colleagues.
The fact that many youngsters benefited from the education and care they received in religious institutions is not a cause for comment, is it?
They got what the same institutions undertook to provide them with.
I certainly do give a shite, lots of them.
I sincerely wish I did not have any grounds for criticising the actions and motives of the Church. But I have lots of them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on May 31, 2009, 12:26:25 PM
There may be trouble ahead !!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, the HSE's national counselling service for survivors of abuse has seen its waiting lists more than double over the past seven days.



This is the problem, how many spongers will use this report as an excuse for a nest egg?
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church
(suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?


I wonder if the posters on this thread and others, who slag of the church, are doing it for the victims or just for themselves??????

Lets, because they deserve it.

As for "good stories" from religious orders, what relevance has that? Lets hear more good stories so we can forget about the bad ones?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 31, 2009, 09:15:06 PM
Pat Rabbitte has called for CORI to be kicked out of social partnership. I agree with him 100%. I also hear through some poliical commentators that more of the same is on the way when the report on the Dublin diocese is release in the next few months.
GDA - I think your attitude is a disgrace on this. If we were talking about abuse by protestant clergy or some other organisation you wouldn't be talking about their other "good work". Your attempts to suggest that there are "spongers" ready to make claims is also a disgrace. Have you any evidence of this. On the contrary, the poor victims were treated like filth by the churches lawyers when they first went to complain. Treated like criminals by people who now tell us how sorry they are and how they'll do what they can. Your 2nd allegation that we should somehow balance the huge evil endemic systematic abuse of CHILDREN by the "good work" of the church and of course those who don't just hate the church and aren't worth listening to. I put it to you that you are brain washed by the church and are unable to take a step back and look at what has gone on. No sensible person could take the view you have with the evidence that is there. Instead you try and make the evidence fit with what you have always believed. Its like I said before, some people are having a real hard time trying to fathom what this report says. The report is there, out in the open and there is no spinning or diluting what it said happened to little boys and girls.

Did any of ye see the late late on Friday night. Gabriel Byrne was on and made a statement to try and break through the reams of words that are being written on this issue he said "what we are talking about here is the penetration of young boys & girls by priests using spittle and vasaline". That is the shocking brutal truth.

Also, have a read of today (Sundays) Daily mail. It lists estimates of the orders wealth. A conservative estimate puts it at 15 billion euro.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 01, 2009, 12:37:54 AM
It's quite apparent that many strident opponents of the Catholic Church have no interest in listening or trying to appreciate any viewpoint they don't agree with.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: From the Bunker on June 01, 2009, 12:50:42 AM
Banana Republic
Septic Isle
Screaming in the suffering sea
It sounds like crying
Everywhere I go
Everywhere I see
The black and blue uniforms
Police and priests

And I wonder do you wonder
While you're sleeping with your whore
That sharing beds with history
Is like a-licking running sores
Forty shades of green yeah
Sixty shades of red
Heroes going cheap these days
Price; a bullet in the head

repeat chorus

Take your hand and lead you
Up a garden path
Let me stand aside here
And watch you pass
Striking up a soldier's song
I know that tune
It begs too many questions
And answers to,

repeat chorus

The purple and the pinstripe
Mutely shake their heads
A silense shrieking volumes
A violence worse than the condemn
Stab you in the back yeah
Laughing in your face
Glad to see the place again
It's a pitty nothing's changed
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 01, 2009, 10:05:11 AM
It's quite apparent that many strident opponents of the Catholic Church have no interest in listening or trying to appreciate any viewpoint they don't agree with.



Quite.

Lar, I'm not making excuses for the church, just trying to balance the views expressed on here.
I'll state my views on this subject AGAIN. My total sympathy and sorrow goes towards the victims, my total anger, resentment and hatred goes towards the perpetrators of these heinous crimes and I believe that they should face the full rigors of the law.
My spongers comment is meant to waken people to the very real possibility of the scandel being abused by unscruplious people (human nature).
Because my views may differ slightly from others I'm "brain washed" or talking rubbish - yeah great arguement!  ::)

Myles your constant permarage on this subject is becoming tired.
What happened was WRONG and thankfully has been exposed AND people are now trying to find resolution to the situation, lets let them get on with it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on June 01, 2009, 11:27:09 AM
15 billion euro ??


That could save the state from bankruptcy.



I think most people are looking on with interest into the police investigations and whether charges will follow. Jail terms for the perpetrators will help a lot without any other money changing hands.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lar Naparka on June 01, 2009, 12:41:20 PM
It's quite apparent that many strident opponents of the Catholic Church have no interest in listening or trying to appreciate any viewpoint they don't agree with.



Quite.

Lar, I'm not making excuses for the church, just trying to balance the views expressed on here.
I'll state my views on this subject AGAIN. My total sympathy and sorrow goes towards the victims, my total anger, resentment and hatred goes towards the perpetrators of these heinous crimes and I believe that they should face the full rigors of the law.
My spongers comment is meant to waken people to the very real possibility of the scandel being abused by unscruplious people (human nature).
Because my views may differ slightly from others I'm "brain washed" or talking rubbish - yeah great arguement!  ::)

Myles your constant permarage on this subject is becoming tired.
What happened was WRONG and thankfully has been exposed AND people are now trying to find resolution to the situation, lets let them get on with it.
No problem whatsoever, GDA.
You are one of the more balanced posters on the board and I don’t recall ever finding myself in total disagreement with you on any subject.
You may have noticed that I said you were being a bit harsh, not totally wrong or peddling bullsugar or anything like that.
At the present time, people on all sides are reacting with shock more than reason.
I don’ think anyone is suggesting that what went on was not totally wrong and completely unacceptable in any civilised society but some will feel that it should not be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water. Maybe when emotions settle down somewhat, a more reasoned consensus will emerge.
I think orangeman is right in thinking that people will start concentrating on the probable police investigations that will follow. I do think that reason should prevail and that the law must be allowed to run its course.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on June 01, 2009, 12:55:18 PM
When the anger and attention comes off all this the heads of the Catholic Church  will be back pontificating and trying to tell us how to live or lives. A friend of mine often said when these stories broke and the church was under pressure, 'Keep your foot on their neck.' Wise words as far the most part with their leaders are only sorry to be exposed again. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on June 01, 2009, 01:05:28 PM
When the anger and attention comes off all this the heads of the Catholic Church  will be back pontificating and trying to tell us how to live or lives.
If you are not a Catholic, why let the teachings of the Catholic Church bother you about how you lead your personal life?



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on June 01, 2009, 02:40:28 PM
When the anger and attention comes off all this the heads of the Catholic Church  will be back pontificating and trying to tell us how to live or lives.
If you are not a Catholic, why let the teachings of the Catholic Church bother you about how you lead your personal life?

I was in the traditional sense-going to Mass etc-and I do find it grating they continue to tell people how to behave with their track record. They would love to take control of people again through fear but is important that is not allowed to happen. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on June 01, 2009, 03:22:58 PM
When the anger and attention comes off all this the heads of the Catholic Church  will be back pontificating and trying to tell us how to live or lives.
If you are not a Catholic, why let the teachings of the Catholic Church bother you about how you lead your personal life?

I was in the traditional sense-going to Mass etc-and I do find it grating they continue to tell people how to behave with their track record. They would love to take control of people again through fear but is important that is not allowed to happen. 
Longrunsthefox, you used the term "us"  "trying to tell us how to live or lives".  As you are no longer a Catholic, why would the teaching of the Catholic Church have any concern for you directly or even faintly indirectly?
The teachings of the Catholic Church are a matter for their members.
Should they do "pontificating and trying to tell us how to live or lives",  that has no relevance to you or your life.
If you let it bother you, then it is your choice.





Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on June 01, 2009, 03:44:21 PM
You're probably rite... is like scraping shit from your shoe, can be hard to clean it off completly   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on June 01, 2009, 08:55:19 PM
It's quite apparent that many strident opponents of the Catholic Church have no interest in listening or trying to appreciate any viewpoint they don't agree with.



Quite.

Lar, I'm not making excuses for the church, just trying to balance the views expressed on here.
I'll state my views on this subject AGAIN. My total sympathy and sorrow goes towards the victims, my total anger, resentment and hatred goes towards the perpetrators of these heinous crimes and I believe that they should face the full rigors of the law.
My spongers comment is meant to waken people to the very real possibility of the scandel being abused by unscruplious people (human nature).
Because my views may differ slightly from others I'm "brain washed" or talking rubbish - yeah great arguement!  ::)

Myles your constant permarage on this subject is becoming tired.
What happened was WRONG and thankfully has been exposed AND people are now trying to find resolution to the situation, lets let them get on with it.

Thats a great opinion. Unfortunately it is only one of many aspects of the whole dirty scandal. May I inquire your opinion on the remainder of the issues (that is if you have not become over tired with my repeating of the facts of this report in the hope it might sink into some peoples sculls)

1) You say those responsible should be held to account in a court of law. I agree 100%. However, what do think should happen to those that ran these institutions, knew about what was going on and did nothing. Remember the report says abuse was endemic and systematic which implies that pretty much every knew and most took part. By those that knew I mean the head honchos inside the "schools" and indeed those outside - many of who now make "mealy mouthed" apologies to borrow a phrase of one of the victims. My problem is that these people will never be tried for anything yet are equally as responsible as the sicko b**tards that carried out the abuse. My opinion is that the church is responsible for this, not just a few bad apples. Do you not agree?
2) The orders that inflicted this own a conservative estimate of 15 billion in wealth of one sort or another. They have committed to pay 128million in compensation to the victims. The state have to pay the remainder (i.e. the taxpayer). The total compensation is extimated to be about 1.2 billion euro, leaving joe soap to pay 10 times what the church does. Do you think that is a fair proportion. I think the church should pay 90% of the damage but 50:50 would also be a step in the right direction. Do you think it is fair that the church should be allowed to voluntarily increase the amount by a degree they come up with themselves (i.e. the criminal setting his own sentance) or do think the state should force the church to fork out a fari amount. Maybe you think 10% is a fair amount?
3) What do you think of the churches response over the past 10 years to the commission. The Christian brothers took legal action to prevent names being named. All the orders fought the victims tooth and nail all the way suggesting they were spongers, liars etc. Many withheld documents or hid them in Rome. The sister of mercy refuse today to speak to the family of a 10month old baby that died under mysterious circumstances in their care. Victims were aggressively questioned by solicitors of the church, they were asked questions such as to tell how big the abusers penis was. These questions came from organisations who knew they were guilty but still proceeded to put victims through more pain. Tell me do you think the well being of the victims was their concern or the survival or their own little institutions? Many priests were interviewed and refused to give any evidence. But the truth gets out and we get apologies from these same people. Do you believe the apologies are genuine? I certainly don't.
4) What do you think of CORI's statement pretty much telling the rest of the church to butt out of their business? This from Fr Healy champion of the needy, he who gets the special position of advising on government policy. Do you think that CORI are correct in saying this? Do you think they should be allowed to stay in the social partnership while they speak like this and refuse to increase monies towards compensation.

Perhaps some of the you that have been defending the church could answer the above because I am genuinely interested to know your opinions on them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Maguire01 on June 01, 2009, 09:45:51 PM
I have not heard anyone here tell tales of "good stories" from the religious orders, but I have heard and know numerous (sp) tales from people that say different, they were educated and looked after by religious instituitions and were better for it.

Yeah lets demonise the Catholic Church (suits alot of agendas), the people on here procrastinating about all things Catholic, do you really give a shite or is it just about getting a dig in?
This isn't the place to tell 'good stories'. This thread shouldn't be about trying to balance out the revelations of this report with the good things the Church has done.
The fact that the Church has done good things is totally irrelevant to the victims.

It's quite apparent that many strident opponents of the Catholic Church have no interest in listening or trying to appreciate any viewpoint they don't agree with.
Yes, you'll have the same posters who will be vocal about this and other such stories relating to the Church. But you'll also get the other posters, like yourself, using the above argument to try and undermine the credibility of those posters.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 02, 2009, 12:53:15 AM
To Magurie01:  No -  I am not trying to undermine the the views of anyone when I question the motives of anti-Cathoclic Church posters. Even the staunchest ally of the Catholic Church will not try to defend the accusations against the Church in the Ryan Report. I have read and accept many genuine and constructive criticisms of my Church recently.

I have a huge problem with how the Ryan Report is being used for a no-holds-barrred attack on my Church - please remember that lay people comprise majority membership of the Catholic Church. When good works (e.g. ministering to the sick and dying) are denied then it is time to call the cirtics' bluff.

Back in the bad old days of the conflict in Northenn Ireland one was accused of being a fellow-traveller if one expressed any views deemed sympathetic to the Nationalist population in the 6-counties. Today I would be honoured to be called a fellow-traveller of the Cathoclic Church.

Myles is an unfortunate by-product of the total access that the internet allows. This guy (maybe he is a crank) deems himself judge and jury on all matters relating to the current controversy. If he is genuine then I suggest he refrains from posting for a day or two. Maybe this might encourage some fair-minded posters to contribute constructive comment.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on June 02, 2009, 08:01:52 AM
To Magurie01:  No -  I am not trying to undermine the the views of anyone when I question the motives of anti-Cathoclic Church posters. Even the staunchest ally of the Catholic Church will not try to defend the accusations against the Church in the Ryan Report. I have read and accept many genuine and constructive criticisms of my Church recently.

I have a huge problem with how the Ryan Report is being used for a no-holds-barrred attack on my Church - please remember that lay people comprise majority membership of the Catholic Church. When good works (e.g. ministering to the sick and dying) are denied then it is time to call the cirtics' bluff.

Back in the bad old days of the conflict in Northenn Ireland one was accused of being a fellow-traveller if one expressed any views deemed sympathetic to the Nationalist population in the 6-counties. Today I would be honoured to be called a fellow-traveller of the Cathoclic Church.

Myles is an unfortunate by-product of the total access that the internet allows. This guy (maybe he is a crank) deems himself judge and jury on all matters relating to the current controversy. If he is genuine then I suggest he refrains from posting for a day or two. Maybe this might encourage some fair-minded posters to contribute constructive comment.


Any chance you might address the questions above that I posted instead of waffling around the issue? The internet allows total access and that is a good thing as it makes it impossible to bury very important reports like the ryan report.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on June 03, 2009, 04:39:32 PM
Jaysus, I thought some of ye defenders of the church would at least make an attempt at my questions above. The silence is deafening.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on June 15, 2009, 10:26:27 PM
Charlie bird was on RTE news tonight about the catholic church abuse scandal in the USA, he mentioned a figure of 1 billion in payouts to victims. I thought I was hearing things but a quick google confirms that Charlie was bang on. How can a church compile monies which are obviously way in excess of billions of dollars. Does no one see anything wrong in this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4655265.stm

Church faces record abuse payout
 

A Kentucky judge has provisionally approved the largest payout yet in the US Catholic Church abuse scandal.
The settlement, between a diocese in the state and an unknown number of sexual abuse victims, amounts to a record $120m (£68m).

The class-action suit accused the Church of covering up child abuse by priests and others over 50 years.

The scandal has cost the Church more than $1bn in payouts since 1950,an Associated Press review says.

In the Kentucky case, the diocese of Covington will have to make $40m available immediately from its assets, if the payout is confirmed by the judge, John W Potter, at a hearing set for January.

The diocese is suing insurance companies for the remaining $80m.

One of the plaintiffs in court was Richard Lillick, 63, who said he was first molested in 1957.

"I can't imagine anything better from our point of view," he said of the settlement, which he described as "an attempt to root out a very grotesque cancer that's been eating at the diocese for years and years".

The judge has ordered attorneys to determine exactly how many people qualify for compensation.

Victims have until November to file claims, and could be entitled to awards of between $5,000 and $450,000, depending on the severity of their ordeal.

The abuse scandal in the US blew up in the Boston Archdiocese three years ago and spread across the country.

Last year, a report commissioned by the Church said more than 4,000 US Roman Catholic priests had faced sexual abuse allegations in the last 50 years in cases involving more than 10,000 children, mostly boys.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tyrones own on June 16, 2009, 02:03:31 AM
I have the answer to the whole thing sorted lads........ :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpuYoK6wv_Y
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on June 16, 2009, 02:41:39 AM
Perhaps some of the you that have been defending the church could answer the above because I am genuinely interested to know your opinions on them.
Myles  quite frankly you have a, dare I say it, preachy style, that does not attract discussion :)
The USA abuse has been well known for some time and the Cardinal O'Connell is strongly implicated in the cover up. Unfortunatly he had the pull to avoid  a grand jury investigation of his role. I have absolutely no doubt that the cover up here went up to Cardinal level.

It has been a very long process to get this far and it is going to take a lot more effort to bring this further. The story of the campaign for justice by the disempowered is one of the most positive developments of modern day Ireland. The so called Celtic Tiger in its boom years  is nothing compared to this.
I remember once trying to talk to some people about one abuser in our midst on the eve of Tyrone  Kerry AISF, for about an hour I detailed all I knew. Unknown to me, about 5 in the group were abused by this man. Later the next day I was told that I shouldn't be talking about such a well respected figure like that, not that it bothered me in the least.  Some 15 years later, this man eventually pleaded guilty to all charges. I met these guys again, all of whom came forward to bear witness. None of them could remember me talking about it so stridently some 15 years earlier.
I suppose that gives you an idea how deep this was buried, the personal denial of the abuse and the progress that has painfully been made  since. Be in no doubt that for each abuse victim to come to terms with something like that, is pain you cannot imagine.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on June 16, 2009, 09:54:51 AM
Did you'se hear about the PP in Offaly at the weekend who described the pupils of an Daingean as "ruffians" and half the parishioners got up and walked out of the chapel ????


This PP is some boy. Where has he been living ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on June 16, 2009, 08:37:47 PM
Perhaps some of the you that have been defending the church could answer the above because I am genuinely interested to know your opinions on them.
Myles  quite frankly you have a, dare I say it, preachy style, that does not attract discussion :)
The USA abuse has been well known for some time and the Cardinal O'Connell is strongly implicated in the cover up. Unfortunatly he had the pull to avoid  a grand jury investigation of his role. I have absolutely no doubt that the cover up here went up to Cardinal level.

It has been a very long process to get this far and it is going to take a lot more effort to bring this further. The story of the campaign for justice by the disempowered is one of the most positive developments of modern day Ireland. The so called Celtic Tiger in its boom years  is nothing compared to this.
I remember once trying to talk to some people about one abuser in our midst on the eve of Tyrone  Kerry AISF, for about an hour I detailed all I knew. Unknown to me, about 5 in the group were abused by this man. Later the next day I was told that I shouldn't be talking about such a well respected figure like that, not that it bothered me in the least.  Some 15 years later, this man eventually pleaded guilty to all charges. I met these guys again, all of whom came forward to bear witness. None of them could remember me talking about it so stridently some 15 years earlier.
I suppose that gives you an idea how deep this was buried, the personal denial of the abuse and the progress that has painfully been made  since. Be in no doubt that for each abuse victim to come to terms with something like that, is pain you cannot imagine.

Preachy style or not I asked a question directed at those who would have the opinion that this whole scandal is about a few bad apples etc etc. They take this view, in my opinion, as they simply can't face the fact that their beloved church could inflict such horrendous abuse onto little kids and then cover it up, obstruct investigations etc. Much easier to blame the few bad apples that inflicted the abuse and ignore the responsibility of the rest of the church in the equally disgusting behaviour ever since. As you have clearly stated in your post, the cover up in the US went to cardinal level. I wonder how high up it went in Ireland. The US church could find 1 billion to pay the victims. The church here has committed to 120 million or so, has only to date handed over half of that and is crying about the fact they can't find the rest. They would have us believe they don't even know the assets they own. And still more scandal is to come, - see abuse of trust 9pm tonight on TV3 (although knowing TV3 they'll probably make a balls of it).
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on July 07, 2009, 10:35:21 PM
Redress board to be reformed ???
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on September 03, 2009, 02:21:02 PM
I know this isn't the same thing but is the reponse not similar ?


Flasher 'working at elderly home' 
 
It has emerged that a convicted sex offender is continuing to work at a home for the elderly in south Belfast.

Terry McCauley, of Elgin Court, was found guilty of an exposure charge last month and given a suspended sentence.

But the 59-year-old is still employed as a maintenance officer at Nazareth House Care Village on Ravenhill Road.

In a statement, the Sisters of Nazareth, who run the home, said they had "no concerns about" McCauley.

The Ballynafeigh man received a sentence of five months at Belfast Magistrates Court, suspended for three years, in addition to being placed on the sex offenders' register for the original offence, which took place in June 2006.

SDLP assembly member Carmel Hanna said that it was a decision for the nuns.

"I'm in no way minimising any sex crimes and I can understand people's concerns, but this conviction was very much at the lower end of the scale," she said.

"There was no custodial sentence, it doesn't involve children and the nuns, who appear to have discussed this at length with this man, are very well aware of it and they have made the decision to retain him in their employment."

Sister Teresa Joseph, regional superior for Ireland, told the South Belfast News she knew McCauley personally and had "no doubts" about him, even after the court ruling.

"We made it quite clear that because of the suspended sentence he has to be very careful with regards as to how he acts, especially if children come into the village," she said.

"We have done our part as employers and made Terry aware of what people have been saying."


 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on September 03, 2009, 03:30:24 PM
In the name of f**king Jesus!!!

Have these people learned  nothing?  Are the stupid or what!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on September 03, 2009, 03:40:49 PM
In the name of f**king Jesus!!!

Have these people learned  nothing?  Are the stupid or what!

That was my immediate reaction as well when I read it, so I thought I would guage opinion.
Mind boggling response.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on September 03, 2009, 06:20:32 PM
In the name of f**king Jesus!!!

Have these people learned  nothing?  Are the stupid or what!

No they have learned nothing and yes they are stupid, as is anyone that gives them the time of day.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Puckoon on September 03, 2009, 07:10:39 PM
I hope he's not gettin nun.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on September 03, 2009, 07:20:52 PM
Maybe they feel he has reformed and forgiveness is possible, anyway they may think his crime was just a flash in the pan!

I'll get my coat
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on September 14, 2009, 08:48:41 PM
Anyone listening to the last word on today fm today. Interesting guy on who wrote a book on the story of a woman looking for her brother.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/s/martin-sixsmith/lost-child-of-philomena-lee.htm

Selling babies, another shameful act of the church. I don't know how anyone can have anything to do with this shower.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on September 18, 2009, 12:13:37 PM
Collection levy not compensation 
 
The Catholic church in the Derry Diocese has said no collection money used to compensate abuse victims.

It was responding to concerns raised by the Voice of the Faithful organisation over an increase in the levy taken by the diocese from parish collections.

The diocese said the increase was "due to a prudent assessment of costs associated with running the diocese."

Voice of the Faithful spokesman, Sean O'Connell, said parishioners have a right to know how their money is spent.

"It was Bishop Hegarty himself who said in 2005 that people have a right to know where their money goes, but since then he seems to use to have gone out of his way to keep us in the dark in that regard.

"It was only because our statement went into the media that we now know that no donations are being made to the stewardship trust, but we should have known that long ago."

In a statement, the Derry diocese said it did not contribute to the Stewardship Trust Fund for the victims of clerical abuse.

"The increase in levy on parish income arises from increasing costs borne by the diocese and is not linked to the Stewardship Trust Fund.

"The diocese is obliged to pay the costs associated with providing services at diocesan level, many of which are directly availed of by parishes.

"The increase in levy is not linked to any special fund, diocesan or national, for compensation arising from child sexual abuse allegations."



 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on September 27, 2009, 08:22:24 PM
To those of you that thought the joke of a church has changed one iota...

From Drogheda Independent 23/09 (http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/colm-ogorman-key-speaker-at-mass-1894034.html)

Colm O'Gorman key speaker at Mass

By Alison Comyn
Wednesday September 23 2009
FOUNDER of the group 1 in 4 Colm O'Gorman has agreed to be key speaker at the Mass of Reconciliation in the Augustinian Church, Shop Street in memory of the 30th anniversary of the visit of Pope John Paul II to Drogheda.

The Mass will take place at 1.15pm on Sunday September 27th.

Mr O'Gorman was the first to highlight the abuse of Fr Sean Fortune, and Fr Iggy O'Donovan says this is the perfect time to recall the same message of reconciliation brought by the then Pontiff three decades ago.

'The theme will be one of healing and we invite everyone to come and join us on Sunday and pray for the Church, and hear from this wonderful man,' says Fr Iggy.

'The Pope appealed for reconciliation all those years ago, and we have seen great scenes like Bertie Ahern and Ian Paisley at the Boyne since, so we would like to carry on the message.


And from Irish times 26/09 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0926/1224255283848.html)

O'Gorman 'surprised' as Mass invitation withdrawn

ONE IN FOUR founder Colm O’Gorman has spoken of his surprise at “the unique experience of being ‘uninvited’ from taking part” in a Mass of healing and reconciliation planned by Fr Iggy O’Donovan at the Augustinian Church in Drogheda for tomorrow.

He said: “It appears that the Archdiocese of Armagh, led by Cardinal Seán Brady, believes there was something inappropriate about the invitation and instructed Fr O’Donovan to withdraw it.” This, Mr O’Gorman felt, was “a real shame”.

It was “a shame that senior church leaders have chosen to close their hearts, their minds and their ears to words offered in a true spirit of hope. Hope informed by an absolute belief in the endless possibilities to be found in our human capacity to transcend terrible trauma and find a way forward together.”

Instead they had “used their power to prevent such a process from finding even more powerful expression by locating it in church”. In his planned address he had “no intention of raking over old, now established hurts”.

Instead, he had hoped “to speak about my sense of an immense opportunity for us all, having named and to a large part owned the truth of the terrible crimes inflicted upon children within church, to find a way forward together in a new spirit of truth, compassion, understanding and love”.

He believed “in the power of truth. Naming the truth in difficult circumstances is always the right thing to do.” So often “we run from things we have done that we feel mark us as bad. I know that feeling; for so many years I ran from my own feelings of shame and self-blame.”

He had planned to end his address by quoting from the Gospel of John: “Let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action.”



Ah, I'm sure the sheep will continue to support that heartless fu*k Brady (not too often I would describe a fellow Cavan man in these terms). Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. When are the decent people in the catholic church going to get off their lazy holes and say "stop" instead of pretending there is nothing amiss.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on September 27, 2009, 09:57:46 PM
To those of you that thought the joke of a church has changed one iota...

From Drogheda Independent 23/09 (http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/colm-ogorman-key-speaker-at-mass-1894034.html)

Colm O'Gorman key speaker at Mass

By Alison Comyn
Wednesday September 23 2009
FOUNDER of the group 1 in 4 Colm O'Gorman has agreed to be key speaker at the Mass of Reconciliation in the Augustinian Church, Shop Street in memory of the 30th anniversary of the visit of Pope John Paul II to Drogheda.

The Mass will take place at 1.15pm on Sunday September 27th.

Mr O'Gorman was the first to highlight the abuse of Fr Sean Fortune, and Fr Iggy O'Donovan says this is the perfect time to recall the same message of reconciliation brought by the then Pontiff three decades ago.

'The theme will be one of healing and we invite everyone to come and join us on Sunday and pray for the Church, and hear from this wonderful man,' says Fr Iggy.

'The Pope appealed for reconciliation all those years ago, and we have seen great scenes like Bertie Ahern and Ian Paisley at the Boyne since, so we would like to carry on the message.


And from Irish times 26/09 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0926/1224255283848.html)

O'Gorman 'surprised' as Mass invitation withdrawn

ONE IN FOUR founder Colm O’Gorman has spoken of his surprise at “the unique experience of being ‘uninvited’ from taking part” in a Mass of healing and reconciliation planned by Fr Iggy O’Donovan at the Augustinian Church in Drogheda for tomorrow.

He said: “It appears that the Archdiocese of Armagh, led by Cardinal Seán Brady, believes there was something inappropriate about the invitation and instructed Fr O’Donovan to withdraw it.” This, Mr O’Gorman felt, was “a real shame”.

It was “a shame that senior church leaders have chosen to close their hearts, their minds and their ears to words offered in a true spirit of hope. Hope informed by an absolute belief in the endless possibilities to be found in our human capacity to transcend terrible trauma and find a way forward together.”

Instead they had “used their power to prevent such a process from finding even more powerful expression by locating it in church”. In his planned address he had “no intention of raking over old, now established hurts”.

Instead, he had hoped “to speak about my sense of an immense opportunity for us all, having named and to a large part owned the truth of the terrible crimes inflicted upon children within church, to find a way forward together in a new spirit of truth, compassion, understanding and love”.

He believed “in the power of truth. Naming the truth in difficult circumstances is always the right thing to do.” So often “we run from things we have done that we feel mark us as bad. I know that feeling; for so many years I ran from my own feelings of shame and self-blame.”

He had planned to end his address by quoting from the Gospel of John: “Let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action.”



Ah, I'm sure the sheep will continue to support that heartless f**k Brady (not too often I would describe a fellow Cavan man in these terms). Makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. When are the decent people in the catholic church going to get off their lazy holes and say "stop" instead of pretending there is nothing amiss.
[/b]


A lot of decent RC peole have got off their asses and have tried to raise issues with the Cavan man in Armagh but it's impossible to get the man's attention. He won't meet ordinary parishioners - he remains aloof and closes his eyes and ears to those who seek change.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on October 06, 2009, 10:44:00 PM
Programme on BBC 1 now about the Nazareth homes in Belfast and Derry. Daragh Mc Intyre programme.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Square Ball on October 06, 2009, 10:56:47 PM
Programme on BBC 1 now about the Nazareth homes in Belfast and Derry. Daragh Mc Intyre programme.

ayh, watching it now, they were put in a large tumble dryer for wetting the bed.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on October 06, 2009, 11:08:08 PM
God help those poor children and what was done to them. Sure a lot of the 'Christian' brothers and priests at the schools that weren't homes for kids were sadistic madmen as well. Even through the 70s...  Never encountered those witches of nuns tho...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on October 07, 2009, 12:39:46 AM
There is a lot of Hand-Washing going on here. Nothing to do with me Guv. it wos the Church that did it. It begs the Question who are the Church. Are the laity not members of the Church. Did some of them not fail in their responsibility to protect Children. What about the role of the state, who placed Children in these institutions and then failed to carry out proper inspections. In this sad tragedy there are no clean Hands, and it is incumbent on all members of the church clerical and lay, and also the state, to ensure that victims of abuse receive proper compensation. This will inevitably require that we put our Hands in our pockets and contribute towards it. If we are for whatever reason reluctant to do that, then we are merely tinkling cymbals, whose indignation is feigned
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on October 15, 2009, 09:47:49 PM
Looks like the truth is now going to be published on the scandal of clerical abuse in the Dublin diocese..

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1015/abuse.html

Dublin abuse report to be published
   
The High Court has ruled that the report of the Commission of Investigation into sexual abuse allegations in the Dublin archdiocese can be published - but all references to one person must be removed.

The commission investigated how clerical child sex abuse allegations involving a sample of 46 priests were handled by Church and State authorities in Dublin between 1 January 1975 and 30 April 2004.

Some of the cases involve men who are facing court proceedings.

Its report was referred to the High Court by Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern in July.

Under the Commission of Investigation Act, the minister must seek directions from the High Court if it is felt the report could prejudice court proceedings.

Mr Justice Paul Gilligan ruled that the report could be published but that a specified part, Chapter 19, might prejudice court proceedings.

He directed that Chapter 19, or references in the report to the person who is the subject of Chapter 19, could not be published unless otherwise directed by the court.

His judgment lists 22 references to that person which must be removed before the report is published.

Justice Gilligan said this part of the report could be mentioned to the court again on 5 May next year.

Andrew Madden, a survivor of sexual abuse in the Dublin archdiocese, said he was very pleased the report would be published.

He said the commission investigated 46 priests so removing reference to one person would still allow people to examine the trends in the report.

Marie Collins, another survivor, said she was pleased the report would be published.

But she said she was disappointed it would not be published in its entirety.

Ms Collins said the purpose of the report was to show if there was a pattern to the way the archdiocese dealt with abuse and it would be difficult to establish that if certain parts of the report were not published.

Maeve Lewis of One in Four, a support group for victims of abuse, urged the Minister for Justice to publish the report quickly.

She also asked the Minister to give support groups some advance notice as to when he intends to publish.

A spokesperson for the Minister for Justice said he had always made it clear he wanted to publish the report as soon as practicable.

However, he said Mr Ahern would have to consider the High Court's written judgment.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gnevin on October 15, 2009, 09:50:22 PM
God help those poor children and what was done to them. Sure a lot of the 'Christian' brothers and priests at the schools that weren't homes for kids were sadistic madmen as well. Even through the 70s...  Never encountered those witches of nuns tho...

God's too busy in Knock making the sun dance to help these children . ::)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: hardstation on October 16, 2009, 01:05:43 AM
God help those poor children and what was done to them. Sure a lot of the 'Christian' brothers and priests at the schools that weren't homes for kids were sadistic madmen as well. Even through the 70s...  Never encountered those witches of nuns tho...

God's too busy in Knock making the sun dance to help these children . ::)
LL was right about you.

To longrunsthefox:
Why stop at Christian Brothers and Priests? Surely (some) lay teachers were as bad. Also, why stop at the 70s?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on October 16, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
See that post was at 1.05 am  - might explain it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on October 16, 2009, 09:48:47 AM
It doesnt explain the rest of the shite he posts though
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Bud Wiser on October 17, 2009, 09:33:36 PM
Maybe ye should click on this link, an ordinary planning application that was defeated but if, you scroll down through the third party submisions then maybe, just maybe if you find the right one you will know the conniving that was going on and that I wanted to highlight when BISHOP Eamonn Walsh, a barrister by the way, was in position to know, not what he should have known, but what he was been faxed and been told to Naoim Brid on Old Blessington Road.

http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&regref=SD07A/0151&type=apps&dateoptions=any&area=Any&keywordtype=location&term=scoil%20treasa (http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&regref=SD07A/0151&type=apps&dateoptions=any&area=Any&keywordtype=location&term=scoil%20treasa)

(The link does not allow the specific direction to the file, scroll down and think Cat's as in Fennelly.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on October 17, 2009, 09:36:54 PM
Maybe ye should click on this link, an ordinary planning application that was defeated but if, you scroll down through the third party submisions then maybe, just maybe if you find the right one you will know the conniving that was going on and that I wanted to highlight when Eamonn Walsh, a barrister by the way was in position to know, not what he should have known, but what he was been faxed and been told to Naoim Brid on Old Blessington Road.

http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&regref=SD07A/0151&type=apps&dateoptions=any&area=Any&keywordtype=location&term=scoil%20treasa (http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=144&regref=SD07A/0151&type=apps&dateoptions=any&area=Any&keywordtype=location&term=scoil%20treasa)

I'd love to know what you are on about Bud. Any chance you might put some flesh on the  bones?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Bud Wiser on October 17, 2009, 09:39:24 PM
I have edited
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Bud Wiser on October 17, 2009, 09:55:45 PM
Well, can you see it now, it was put in the public domain? Needless to say, the two priests that were in my area have left, one no longer a priest and the other a slithering debacle that bears no mention.  Fact is, when the new report comes out this week there will be very few people that will sleep easy.  There are so many many people (and I don't mean this in any respect to you or any board members) that have not got a clue, not a clue, ever, to what was going on, right up to recently.  There have been so so many suicides, so many bullshit media reports about how they happen and why but nobody has got these b**tards because they were moved like chess pieces.

EDIT: If you still cant see what I meant,when the first report came out each head of Parish  was instructed to qualify how much land they could grab to sell back to the state. (too tired now after been with Dessie all day so I will wait forthe report this week before further comment)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on October 25, 2009, 08:51:02 PM
Another scandalous story in the mail today about Archbishop Burke and his affair and alleged abuse of a 14 year old girl in Nigeria. Take a look at the link below for an account of her claims. This is very interesting for 2 reasons, 1st obviously how this man had access in a 3rd world country to young girls and 2nd for the reaction of people on the ground who can not even accept the possibility of truth in the story. I would suggest Nigeria is a now a little like Ireland of the 50's?

http://www.catholicreport.org/comments.php?cID=5650

Before anyone else jumps to this mans defence, you should know there are taped recordings, letters etc which amounts to solid evidence against the man details of which were in todays Mail on Sunday.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on October 25, 2009, 10:21:38 PM
Rome investigating abuse complaint
 Sunday, 25 October 2009 21:01
The Vatican is investigating an allegation of child sexual abuse against an Irish Archbishop based in Nigeria.

St Patrick's Missionary Society, also known as the Kiltegan Fathers, has confirmed that a complaint was made about one of its members, Archbishop Richard Burke, by a 41-year-old Nigerian woman, Ms Dolores Atwood.

Archbishop Burke, 60, from Fethard in County Tipperary, is one of the most senior members of the Catholic hierarchy known to be facing an accusation of this kind. He denies the allegation.

AdvertisementA statement released by the Society in response to a report in today's 'Irish Mail On Sunday' said that Ms Atwood had made a complaint alleging that Archbishop Burke had begun abusing her when she was a 14-year-old patient in hospital.


The statement said that once the complaint was made, two representatives of the Society promptly met Ms Atwood, who now lives in Canada and is married with three children.

It said that the complaint was received in December and that the Archbishop voluntarily withdrew from ministry six months after it was made while it was being investigated.

The Society expressed its deep sorrow and regret for the suffering that Ms Atwood and her family were going through.

It also confirmed that within the past fortnight, the Society had sent all papers relating to the case to the Vatican following a request from the Catholic Church's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, its second most important office,

Archbishop Burke was ordained a priest 34 years ago and was made a Archbishop of Benin in 2008.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 12:42:00 PM
Orders offer abuse compensation 
 
Children suffered systematic abuse and neglect in Catholic-run institutions
More religious orders have offered compensation packages for victims who suffered child abuse in Catholic-run institutions in the Irish Republic.

It follows the announcement of a 161m euros package from the Christian Brothers on Wednesday, to atone for the crimes of its members.
Five more congregations have offered 43m euros in reparations between them.

An official report, published in May, found children had been systematically abused in many institutions.

Oppressive regime

The Ryan report took submissions from over 2,000 people who said they had suffered physical and sexual abuse at Catholic-run orphanages and industrial schools in the Republic of Ireland, going back many decades.

 COMPENSATION OFFERS
20m euros - Oblates of Mary Immaculate
10m euros - Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul
5m euros - Sisters of Charity
5m euros - Presentation Sisters
3m euros - Presentation Brothers
It painted a picture of an oppressive regime, where many children were frequently hungry, neglected and sometimes subjected to beatings and rape.

The report was greeted with public outrage and demands that religious orders contribute to a new trust fund to help former residents come to terms with their abuse.

The new fund would collect payments in addition to those already submitted by religious orders through the Republic's Residential Institutions Redress Board, which was set up in 2002 to make awards to former residents who had received injuries consistent with abuse.

In addition to the Christian Brothers, five other orders have published details of their compensation offer on their websites.

The Oblates of Mary Immaculate said they would contribute 20m euros "in reparation for failings on their part while managing St Conleth's Reformatory in Daingean, County Offaly between 1940 and 1973.

"This payment is also motivated by a desire to assist in alleviating the present needs of former pupils of St. Conleth's who are in need of help," the statement said.

'Genuine regret'

The Daughters of Charity of St Vincent de Paul are to give 10m euros and said they "again unreservedly apologise to anyone who was abused and hurt while in our care as children".

The order outlined its valued assets, which total 339.2m euros, and said it would donate the 10m euros
"over three years or in a shorter time, depending on how quickly the Congregation can sell properties to make up the figure promised".

The Sisters of Charity have offered 5m euros which they will pay over a five year period.

In a letter to the Irish education minister, the sisters said they "genuinely regret any suffering experienced by former residents while in institutions under our care".

The Presentation Sisters said their contribution of 5m euros was given in the context that only 1% of the claims made under the redress scheme related to their order

'Help and healing'

They also said the offer would be supplemented by their ongoing contributions to the counselling service for persons who experienced abuse and was "in addition to an earlier contribution of 5.2 m euro to the Redress Board".

The Presentation Brothers offered 3m euros, which it said represented one third of its available funds.
The order was responsible for one industrial school, St Joseph's in Greenmount, County Cork, which closed in 1959.

In a statement the brothers said they wanted to "bring help and healing to the survivors" and were "willing to co-operate with the government and others in this process".

 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 03:30:49 PM
Irish Church accused of abuse cover-up 
 
Four archbishops turned a blind eye to abuse 
A damning report into clerical child abuse in the Dublin archdiocese has criticised the Church authorities for covering up the abuse.

The report investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests.

It found that the Church placed its own reputation above the protection of children in its care.

It also said that state authorities facilitated the cover-up by allowing the Church to operate outside the law.





The "Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin" covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

It has laid bare a culture of concealment where church leaders prioritised the protection of their own institution above that of vulnerable children in their care.

Victims

Instead of reporting the allegations to civic authorities, those accused of horrific crimes were systematically shuffled from parish to parish where they could prey on new, unsuspecting victims.

The avoidance of public scandal which would inevitably follow high-profile prosecutions appeared more important than preventing abusers from repeating their crimes.


 
Church and state authorities colluded to cover up child abuse
The report found that four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.

Civic authorities were also criticised for their cosy relationship with the Church.

The commissioner of the Irish police, Fachtna Murphy, said the report made for "difficult and disturbing reading, detailing as it does many instances of sexual abuse and failure on the part of both Church and State authorities to protect victims".

He added: "The commission has found that in some cases, because of acts or omissions, individuals who sought assistance did not always receive the level of response or protection which any citizen in trouble is entitled to expect from An Garda Síochána (the Irish police).

He said he was "deeply sorry" for the failures.

 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: omagh_gael on November 26, 2009, 03:35:14 PM
Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.     
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 03:36:21 PM
Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.   
[/b]


Can't see this happening anytime soon.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 04:10:05 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: omagh_gael on November 26, 2009, 04:24:30 PM
Did anyone hear Dermot Ahernes speech earlier regarding the Dublin abuse report? Extreme savaging of the catholic church in general relating to this matter and severely critical of the Garda for their role in not policing the matter appropriately. About time this matter and the animals that committed these henious crimes serve their time.   
[/b]


Can't see this happening anytime soon.

More than likely OM although he did insist that no matter how long ago these crimes were committed all possible measures will be made to bring them to book. I hope this is the case.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Lazer on November 26, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 05:08:31 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive

The past!!!!

The cover up was not in the past (unless you are talking 1 or 2 years), neither were the mealy mouth apologies nor the frustration of the investigation or the compensation issue. But, but heh, if it makes you feel better let say it was all in the past. Sure I started writing this post in the past too...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Yes I Would on November 26, 2009, 05:11:22 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive

Not so sure!.. There still exists many within the church in my opinion who were part of this sick and evil regime that was commonplace throughout Ireland and have resisted any attempts at every opportunity to part with control and money at every opportunity. Everyone of the b**tards should be named and shamed!!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 26, 2009, 05:59:08 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
They have only taken steps to prevent this happening in the future after being shamed into it. They knew this was going on and did next to nothing until the scale of the issue was made public.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 06:54:08 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.

- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

First of all - for the parts in Bold above - should these not been past tense? The church may have done these things in the past - but have taken steps to prevent this happening again

Secondly - A major part of being a Christian is being able to forgive
They have only taken steps to prevent this happening in the future after being shamed into it. They knew this was going on and did next to nothing until the scale of the issue was made public.

Agreed and worse than that they covered it up for decades. Anyone who perverted (sorry) the course of justice should be prosecuted. I believe the report refers to high ranking Gárdaí who didn't properly pursue the issues possibly due to their strong beliefs. I have a problem with a certain lay religious group that hold powerful positions in this country and indeed one of their members carried out an early whimsical investigation into this isse.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 07:01:49 PM
Glad to see this getting coverage abroad too. You never know, the vatican may even respond. On page 223 of the report it outlines how th vatican were contacted for information. They never bothered  to respond - instead  they complained to the Irish government for the judge having the gaul to contact them instead of using diplomatic channels!! Oh yes, the church has really changed.

From the Indo in the UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/church-had-immunity-to-conceal-sex-abuse-says-report-1828168.html

Church had immunity to conceal sex abuse, says report
By Ed Carty and Sarah Stack, Press Association

The Catholic hierarchy in Ireland was granted immunity to cover up child sex abuse among paedophile priests in Dublin, a damning report revealed today.

Authorities enjoyed a cosy relationship with the Church and did not enforce the law as four archbishops, obsessed with secrecy and avoiding scandal, protected abusers and reputations at all costs.

Hundreds of crimes against defenceless children from the 1960s to the 1990s were not reported while gardai treated clergy as though they were above the law.

In a three-year inquiry, the Commission to Inquire into the Dublin Archdiocese uncovered a sickening tactic of "don't ask, don't tell" throughout the Church.

"The Commission has no doubt that clerical child sexual abuse was covered up by the Archdiocese of Dublin and other Church authorities," it said.

"The structures and rules of the Catholic Church facilitated that cover-up.

"The State authorities facilitated that cover-up by not fulfilling their responsibilities to ensure that the law was applied equally to all and allowing the Church institutions to be beyond the reach of the normal law enforcement processes."

Four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.

The first files were handed over by the Cardinal in 1995 but even then he had records of complaints against at least 28 priests.

The primary loyalty of bishops and archbishops is to the Church, the report said.

Bishop James Kavanagh, Bishop Dermot O'Mahony, Bishop Laurence Forristal, Bishop Donal Murray and disgraced Bishop Brendan Comiskey, a reformed alcoholic who failed to control paedophile priests when in charge of the Ferns Diocese, all knew about child abuse for many years.

The inquiry, headed by Judge Yvonne Murphy, said the hierarchy cannot claim they did not know that child sex abuse was a crime.

Cardinal Connell was credited for instigating two secret canon law trials which took place over the 30-year period and led to two priests being defrocked.

Monsignor Gerard Sheehy, a powerful figure in the Catholic Archdiocese, one of the largest in Europe, fought to prevent the internal prosecutions.

Religious orders, for example the Columbans, had clear knowledge of complaints dating back to the early 1970s.

Parts of the 700-page report have been censored to prevent pending or potential prosecutions of abusers being prejudiced with references to two priests, and one of the cleric's brothers, removed.

While the Dublin Archdiocese inquiry found no evidence of a paedophile ring, some of the most shocking findings included:

* One priest admitted sexually abusing more than 100 children;

* Another accepted he abused on a fortnightly basis during his 25-year ministry;

* One complaint was made against a priest who later admitted abusing at least six other children;

* It took gardai 20 years to decide on a prosecution of one priest.

The inquiry said it uncovered inappropriate contacts between authorities and the Archdiocese.

Allegations were made against one priest, known as Fr Edmondus, but Garda Commissioner Daniel Costigan handed the case to Archbishop McQuaid and took no other action.

The inquiry also warned of inappropriate relations between some senior gardai and priests in two other cases.

"A number of very senior members of the gardai, including the Commissioner (Costigan) in 1960, clearly regarded priests as being outside their remit," the report said.

"There are some examples of gardai actually reporting complaints to the Archdiocese instead of investigating them.

"It is fortunate that some junior members of the force did not take the same view."

The inquiry, which was looking at a sample of 46 priests dating back to 1975 but took its review back as far as the 1940s, outlined an insurance scheme for victims set up by the Archdiocese in 1987.

Church files show at the time Archbishops McNamara, Ryan and McQuaid had, between them, information on complaints against at least 17 priests.

The Commission said it proved the hierarchy knew the sex abuse scandals would cost the Church dearly.

"The taking out of insurance was proving knowledge of child sex abuse as a major cost to the Archdiocese and is inconsistent with the view that archdiocesan officials were still 'on a learning curve' at a much later date, or were lacking in an appreciation of the phenomenon of clerical child sex abuse," it said.

The Archdiocese was pre-occupied until the mid-1990s with maintaining secrecy, avoiding scandal, protecting the reputation of the Church and preservation of assets.

All other concerns, including the damage done to young victims, came second, the report said.

"The welfare of the children, which should have been the first priority, was not even a factor to be considered in the early days," the Commission said.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 07:03:36 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 07:16:18 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie

Can I ask that you delete that post and start it in a new thread? It is an interesting subject but might be better in another thread. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 26, 2009, 07:34:18 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie
I think that's been posted up before?  Is that real? 
I think it was pointed out the last time it was posted that people would want to think about that before they do it.


You know who I'm most angry and disgusted with in all of this, and I'm not sure why, the people. The normal people who must have been f**king completely brain washed! What the hell was wrong with them!  People, not just the police or the govt, knew this was happening and did nothing.
My ma was telling me there about something on the radio today, some woman was on and her and the sister were abused by the priest. Her mother was one of these who'd cook the priest's dinners, and the priest would call around at night when they were in bed and he'd have to to the children's bedroom to "say goodnight".  That's were the abuse took place. Now, there is no doubt in my mind the mother knew what has happening, you would have to be clean stupid not to and she done nothing.  And then there was something else about some woman going to the bishops house (as you do, rather than to the guards) to complain about a priest abusing someone and she was threatened with excommunication so she didn't pursue it.  What the f**k!  Same goes for the mothers and fathers who allowed their grandchildren, who's only crime was to be born out of wedlock, to be taken away and their daughters through in these laundries.  Unbelievable.
Those are the people I am most disgusted with.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: redhugh on November 26, 2009, 07:41:00 PM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...

Great post Myles.Sick, deviant, corrupt, lying bastids that betrayed trust to an astonishing level.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 26, 2009, 08:11:31 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie
I think that's been posted up before?  Is that real? 
I think it was pointed out the last time it was posted that people would want to think about that before they do it.


You know who I'm most angry and disgusted with in all of this, and I'm not sure why, the people. The normal people who must have been f**king completely brain washed! What the hell was wrong with them!  People, not just the police or the govt, knew this was happening and did nothing.
My ma was telling me there about something on the radio today, some woman was on and her and the sister were abused by the priest. Her mother was one of these who'd cook the priest's dinners, and the priest would call around at night when they were in bed and he'd have to to the children's bedroom to "say goodnight".  That's were the abuse took place. Now, there is no doubt in my mind the mother knew what has happening, you would have to be clean stupid not to and she done nothing.  And then there was something else about some woman going to the bishops house (as you do, rather than to the guards) to complain about a priest abusing someone and she was threatened with excommunication so she didn't pursue it.  What the f**k!  Same goes for the mothers and fathers who allowed their grandchildren, who's only crime was to be born out of wedlock, to be taken away and their daughters through in these laundries.  Unbelievable.
Those are the people I am most disgusted with.
Good post Pints. It was a very different time in Catholic Ireland, which seems to have been ruled by the Church rather than the State. I still don't understand the mindset of subservience to any body which asks you to do something totally against human nature ie give up your children for no good reason. There are many, many members of public culpable in allowing this to happen. And you know what, I'll bet there are still people in Ireland don't believe a word of it and think it's all a conspiracy against the Catholic Church. They're the nutters were out collecting money for paedophile priests a few years back.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 26, 2009, 08:15:02 PM
Quote
I'll bet there are still people in Ireland don't believe a word of it and think it's all a conspiracy against the Catholic Church.
Of course there are, I know at least one and she (shes about 80) refuses to believe a word of any of this.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 26, 2009, 08:22:21 PM
Quote
I'll bet there are still people in Ireland don't believe a word of it and think it's all a conspiracy against the Catholic Church.
Of course there are, I know at least one and she (shes about 80) refuses to believe a word of any of this.
I don't if my Granny would believe it either if she was alive.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: redhugh on November 26, 2009, 08:27:36 PM
Quote
I'll bet there are still people in Ireland don't believe a word of it and think it's all a conspiracy against the Catholic Church.
Of course there are, I know at least one and she (shes about 80) refuses to believe a word of any of this.
I don't if my Granny would believe it either if she was alive.

My Ma would'nt have heard a bad word about the church in her house for the longest time.But fair play to her she started to research it and saw the truth for what it was.She now has little good to say about it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 08:41:14 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie

Can I ask that you delete that post and start it in a new thread? It is an interesting subject but might be better in another thread.

Muppet - I'll start  a thread on it when this one dies down cos i'd imagine both will end up covering the same stuff, if thats ok with you?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 08:43:29 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie

Can I ask that you delete that post and start it in a new thread? It is an interesting subject but might be better in another thread.

Muppet - I'll start  a thread on it when this one dies down cos i'd imagine both will end up covering the same stuff, if thats ok with you?

It was just a suggestion. I think it'll get lost in this thread.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 08:46:05 PM
Some of you may find this site of use...

www.countmeout.ie
I think that's been posted up before?  Is that real? 
I think it was pointed out the last time it was posted that people would want to think about that before they do it.


You know who I'm most angry and disgusted with in all of this, and I'm not sure why, the people. The normal people who must have been f**king completely brain washed! What the hell was wrong with them!  People, not just the police or the govt, knew this was happening and did nothing.
My ma was telling me there about something on the radio today, some woman was on and her and the sister were abused by the priest. Her mother was one of these who'd cook the priest's dinners, and the priest would call around at night when they were in bed and he'd have to to the children's bedroom to "say goodnight".  That's were the abuse took place. Now, there is no doubt in my mind the mother knew what has happening, you would have to be clean stupid not to and she done nothing.  And then there was something else about some woman going to the bishops house (as you do, rather than to the guards) to complain about a priest abusing someone and she was threatened with excommunication so she didn't pursue it.  What the f**k!  Same goes for the mothers and fathers who allowed their grandchildren, who's only crime was to be born out of wedlock, to be taken away and their daughters through in these laundries.  Unbelievable.
Those are the people I am most disgusted with.
Good post Pints. It was a very different time in Catholic Ireland, which seems to have been ruled by the Church rather than the State. I still don't understand the mindset of subservience to any body which asks you to do something totally against human nature ie give up your children for no good reason. There are many, many members of public culpable in allowing this to happen. And you know what, I'll bet there are still people in Ireland don't believe a word of it and think it's all a conspiracy against the Catholic Church. They're the nutters were out collecting money for paedophile priests a few years back.

The catholic church has always been about maintaining power in this country and they succeeded for a long long time. They were the law. You have to remember people in these times were in genuine fear of their souls going to hell such was the mental pressure put on them. It was like a cult built on fear. Then on the other hand they had their tentacles in everything. They had a say in who was the headmaster, the garda etc. You could not avoid them or live your life without crossing them. They controlled what the tv showed and what was said on the radio.To us today we can't fathom how ordinary people let themselves be totally controlled like this. We'd like to think we'd be different but who knows.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: anglocelt39 on November 26, 2009, 08:47:38 PM
I have children that are currently being educated in the Catholic system. As a result of this I have communions, confirmations every so often and tend to rock up to mass more often than would be the case if it was left up to me. Sometimes I might hear something that makes the outing worthwhile and rewarding. On one visit in the last three years I heard some visiting Padre go on, at some length, about the sin of couples cohabiting when not married. I f**king well kid you not.

I will rock up next Sunday and I will have my ears pricked for Something resembling an abject apology. I may have to wait. I was nearly sick in the car today as I heard the latest catalogue of shame on the radio.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 08:50:07 PM
Anyone know if the words 'Opus Dei' appear in the report?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 08:52:53 PM
I have children that are currently being educated in the Catholic system. As a result of this I have communions, confirmations every so often and tend to rock up to mass more often than would be the case if it was left up to me. Sometimes I might hear something that makes the outing worthwhile and rewarding. On one visit in the last three years I heard some visiting Padre go on, at some length, about the sin of couples cohabiting when not married. I f**king well kid you not.

I will rock up next Sunday and I will have my ears pricked for Something resembling an abject apology. I may have to wait. I was nearly sick in the car today as I heard the latest catalogue of shame on the radio.

I'd guess there will be a split. Many priests will try and express sorrow, shame regret etc many will say nothing and hope it blows over and we all forget about it and return to normal. I would urge those good priests to leave the church like the priest in Derry. Let them do the work of Jesus, if they wish, as normal people. They'll achieve a lot more in my opinion.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Orior on November 26, 2009, 09:29:43 PM
Okay, so there were very bad eggs in the priesthood, and peoples lives were ruined.

Do people on this board want:

1 ) perpretators put in jail
2 ) aiding and abetting put in jail
3 ) sack cloth and ashes
4 ) the church disbanded
5 ) compo
6 ) an apology
7 ) all the above
8 ) none of the above
9 ) something else?

(Updated following 5Sams post)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: 5 Sams on November 26, 2009, 09:33:22 PM
Okay, so there were very bad eggs in the priesthood, and peoples lives were ruined.

Do people on this board want:

1) sack cloth and ashes
2) the church disbanded
3) compo
4) an apology
5) all the above
6) none of the above
7) something else?

7........just cut the balls of the perverted cnuts. Simple. Priest or lay man....psychos like that need to be sorted out.


Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: SLIGONIAN on November 26, 2009, 09:35:17 PM
130 complaints since 2004,

2000 and fcking 4.

How can this still be happening? >:(. When will it stop?.

Just beyond thought the evilness. I hope the victims can find the strength to live there lives in peace.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 09:42:09 PM
Okay, so there were very bad eggs in the priesthood, and peoples lives were ruined.

Do people on this board want:

1 ) perpretators put in jail
2 ) aiding and abetting put in jail
3 ) sack cloth and ashes
4 ) the church disbanded
5 ) compo
6 ) an apology
7 ) all the above
8 ) none of the above
9 ) something else?

(Updated following 5Sams post)

1) yes should be jailed & 2) should be prosecuted, not all would go to jail, it would depend on the circumstances.

Disbanding the Church is not the solution but there needs to be a lot of weeding out done and I'm afraid the current Pontiff may not be willing to help, judging by his actions as a Cardinal.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on November 26, 2009, 09:58:22 PM
Prime Time now, absolutely shocking stuff.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 26, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Okay, so there were very bad eggs in the priesthood, and peoples lives were ruined.

Do people on this board want:

1 ) perpretators put in jail
2 ) aiding and abetting put in jail
3 ) sack cloth and ashes
4 ) the church disbanded
5 ) compo
6 ) an apology
7 ) all the above
8 ) none of the above
9 ) something else?

(Updated following 5Sams post)

- 1 & 2 & 5 definetely
- If i were a victim an apology now would be pretty meaningless.
- All state funding removed from catholic church for a period until it demonstrates it deserves it
- Church removed from all schools, hospitals etc, Compulsory purchase of all relevant assets to achieve this, for say a token €1.
- Letter of protest sent to the pope outlining the disgust of the government.
- Laws introduced that makes it a minimum 10 year offence for anyone who knows of child abuse and does not inform authorities.
- Rights of the child enshrined in the constitution.
- Any mention of special place for catholic church in law or constitution removed.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 10:10:41 PM
Prime Time now, absolutely shocking stuff.


Scandlous.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 26, 2009, 10:16:52 PM
what's happening on prime time?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Yes I Would on November 26, 2009, 10:30:38 PM
what's happening on prime time?

Pretty graphic detail what these evil b**tards were up to, and how it was covered up and brushed under the carpet!!
Hope they rot in hell!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 26, 2009, 10:31:55 PM
what's happening on prime time?
harrowing.

Miriam and 3 other women, lots of hand wringing and a humble Bishop we should be grateful for although he couldn't answer any question when the women got around to asking any.

2 ministers wouldn't go on the show.

Aside from the chatter the reports of activities of individual offenders and the cover-ups were particularly harrowing.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 26, 2009, 10:40:59 PM
The protection and covering up of Fr. Greene in Donegal was particularly shocking. Moved from one parish to another. Truly amazing.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Rois on November 26, 2009, 11:17:36 PM
That Fr Greene story was absolutely diabolical.  I was in tears at parts of Prime Time.  Felt pretty sorry for the Archbishop, he is carrying the weight of the whole lot on his shoulders. 

The psycho-analyst was pretty poor though - maybe I just misunderstood her role.

This is so sad (but necessary) to hear.  How, how could there be such a concentration of paedophiles in a pretty small population of priests?  What made so many of them think it was acceptable?  There has to be a lot of psychology behind the behaviour.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 26, 2009, 11:27:56 PM
That Fr Greene story was absolutely diabolical.  I was in tears at parts of Prime Time.  Felt pretty sorry for the Archbishop, he is carrying the weight of the whole lot on his shoulders. 

The psycho-analyst was pretty poor though - maybe I just misunderstood her role.

This is so sad (but necessary) to hear.  How, how could there be such a concentration of paedophiles in a pretty small population of priests?  What made so many of them think it was acceptable?  There has to be a lot of psychology behind the behaviour.

Same as that Rois... I find that very distressing to watch. I be looking at mantle piece at pics of my kids. They are evil b**tards including the ones who covered up. How the f** could they cover that. Sickening. I never darken the door of the church anyway,. Is totally corrupt. Sean Brady comes across as very shallow, trying to say the right thing. The survivers are the heroes in this country. 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 26, 2009, 11:42:07 PM
Diarmuid Martin is truly repentant, shocked, sorrowful and aghast, on behalf of the evil b**tards who abused under the protection of the Catholic Church authorities, of which there were a multitude. And let's not forget, they (certain Church orders) were calling the abused liars and fantasists right up until very, very recently.

At the root of all this, in my opinion, is the contemptible, corrupting vow of celibacy, something that was introduced solely to protect the Churches' assets on Earth from the 'threat' of inheritance, i.e., protect material. It had no basis in theology, though a theological framework was contrived around it over the centuries as the casuits and sophists spun and wove, and all the while the young innocent were being buggered, raped, and killed.

It wasn't just the celibacy vow of course, but that laid the groundwork wherein it offered 'respectable' sanctuary for depraved monsters like 'Father' Seán Fortune in Wexford, who probably couldn't believe his luck having being ordained and bestowed with all the inbuilt unquestioned trust that that position entailed and guaranteed. Sick. And all the while, the Christian Catholic Church shimmied and skived to move the abusers around like harmless draughts on a board, to some other place where they could abuse with a clean sheet again, and with sure impunity regardless of the twisted depths of their perversion.

There are good priests, and I feel for them, for such will be the fallout here that the scattergun of opprobrium will spare few, if any. But if the Catholic Church wants to have any relevance, trust (ha!), or future it needs to address the shameful source of sacrilege that celibacy is.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on November 26, 2009, 11:48:46 PM
If they were allowed to have sex with a woman (or man?) would that stop them raping kids?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 26, 2009, 11:52:12 PM
If they were allowed to have sex with a woman (or man?) would that stop them raping kids?

Where the feck do I say that?

But no, it almost certainly wouldn't, but no more than the usual sexual deviant Joe, of which there are a few. My whole point is that it's such a contrived, unnatural stricture that it's going to pervert, much more than a random sample of the ordinary Joes would be perverted (and it isn't just the blokes you know).

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 26, 2009, 11:54:14 PM
A lot of shite talk there Fear an Srath Ban. Celebacy like f**. If celebacy was a problem why didn't they go and have sex with adult women or men if that is their thing or even pay a prostitute. They were paedophiles... forget the dog collar shite. Evil paedos who probably got into the church to get acess to kids and be trusted. Jees! if someone goes a while without sex they don't get the urge to rape a child!!.... unless they are paedophiles.   
As for Martin being truly repentant... by his actions he will be judged... like standing down the bishops that covered up... 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 26, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
A lot of shite talk there Fear an Srath Ban. Celebacy like f**. If celebacy was a problem why didn't they go and have sex with adult women or men if that is their thing or even apy a prostitute.
Celibacy isn't natural, and neither you, nor anyone else can predict exactly how humans react to such unnatural directives. Adult women or men likely involved more risk, and so perverted were they that adults may not have cut it. Who are you, David Attenborough? You don't know, all I know is that something that's so unnatural cannot be good for a soul.


They were paedophiles... forget the dog collar shite. Evil paedos who probably got into the church to get acess to kids and be trusted. Jees! if someone goes a while without sex they don't get the urge to rape a child!!.... unless they are paedophiles.   
Read what I wrote again slowly, especially the sanctuary bit.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:09:33 AM
A lot of shite talk there Fear an Srath Ban. Celebacy like f**. If celebacy was a problem why didn't they go and have sex with adult women or men if that is their thing or even apy a prostitute.
Celibacy isn't natural, and neither you, nor anyone else can predict exactly how humans react to such unnatural directives. Adult women or men likely involved more risk, and so perverted were they that adults may not have cut it. Who are you, David Attenborough? You don't know, all I know is that something that's so unnatural cannot be good for a soul.


They were paedophiles... forget the dog collar shite. Evil paedos who probably got into the church to get acess to kids and be trusted. Jees! if someone goes a while without sex they don't get the urge to rape a child!!.... unless they are paedophiles.   
Read what I wrote again slowly, especially the sanctuary bit.

What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:17:53 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:24:09 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

What are you?... a sex therapist?  :o  I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:27:04 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:29:27 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.

The name calling and insults cut no ice with Mr Fox  8) ... stop making excuses about celebacy for paedophiles.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:33:50 AM
A childish, rabble-raiser and mob ruler. Tabloid trash.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:40:22 AM
A childish, rabble-raiser and mob ruler. Tabloid trash.

Is too serious a subject to give that the reply it merits. Goodnite       
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Sandino on November 27, 2009, 12:41:24 AM
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the percentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 12:42:39 AM
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the persentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.

Good luck Sandino... Strabane man will give you hell for that opinion  :o
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Sandino on November 27, 2009, 12:45:19 AM
I disagree with celibacy but i think that it  is a different issue from the abuse of children.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 12:51:33 AM
In my opinion the celibacy issue is a discourse it has little bearing in relation to sex attacks on children. most people who abuse children are married hetrosexual men. I have also read somewhere that the persentage of abusers within the church is equal to most other professions.

I'd like to see the stats on that Sandino.  I'm talking about percentages, not absolute figures, i.e., there are many more married heterosexual men than priests, so by the law of averages alone that would be expected, but I'd say there's more than the law of averages at work. Again, I'd like to see stats on the professions.

And bear in mind that a lot of the abuse within the Church is only coming to light now, i.e., whenever those statistics were gathered it might still have been the case that there was no abuse within the Catholic Church at all, virtually, or very little, i.e., no more than the equal of other professions.

And I agree, that celibacy is no excuse, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that a vocation such as the priesthood that involves and embodies the care, protection and support of all in society, especially for the most vulnerable, but which ends up actually being the greatest persecutor of the most vulnerable and needful in society represents something more than a statistical aberration. It represents a perversion.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 01:57:23 AM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past. 
 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on November 27, 2009, 04:44:42 AM
Well said Rossie Mad, the church is bigger than any Pope,Bishop,Priest or pervert. Sweeping changes will be required, but the Church will survive because people like you recognise the postive contributions it has and  can make to society. Trust no Pope,Bishop or Priest, let our trust be in God alone
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ludermor on November 27, 2009, 07:45:51 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.
Whether you are meaning it or not it sounds to me that you are using celibacy as an excuse ( or an explaination). You may have a point but its more like a theory unless you can back it up woth some stats.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 08:20:13 AM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Rois on November 27, 2009, 09:05:31 AM

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.



Maybe it isn't your intention myles but it upsets me that others are insinuating that by not disassociating yourself from the Church in the wake of this means you are somehow condoning or at least excusing or ignoring what's gone on.

Well if you're going to use the GAA in this context, could I also liken parishes to clubs - the Catholic Church to me is more than a hierarchy - it's a community thing, much like the GAA club. 
I had a fantastic experience with those involved in the church while growing up, and since.  I don't want to see my parish community disintegrate.  The nuns and priests who had a bearing on my life were nothing but inspiring in their Christian values. 
And that to me is the Catholic Church - if any of those clergy that I had contact with on a regular basis were involved in any cover-up or directly in abuse, then I'd be disgusted on a personal level (and am with those I've never had any contact with), but I also won't forget how much comfort their colleagues brought me after a bereavement, the investment they put into teaching Christian behaviours and the joy and friendships they encouraged through involvement in parish life. 

What's being uncovered now is sad and the perpitrators (in whatever sense) should be held accountable, hopefully beginning with the replacement of those guilty parties still involved in the Church.  But on a daily basis, this affair will not change my memories or practices with the Church, and I hope that people don't try to make me feel guilty for it.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 09:14:17 AM
I'll guareentee you if I went 12 monthes without sex I wouldn't start raping children but if you want to make excuses for evil paedophiles go ahead...

Go fcuk yourself, I'm making excuses for no one (you're good at the tabloid talk).

That doesn't mean that if something's broken it shouldn't be fixed, or if there's a problem with something it shouldn't be addressed. Grow up sometime.
Whether you are meaning it or not it sounds to me that you are using celibacy as an excuse ( or an explaination). You may have a point but its more like a theory unless you can back it up woth some stats.

We are all responsible for our own individual actions ludermor, so it can never be an excuse. That doesn't mean, however, that some rational analysis can't be applied. That always leaves you open to accusations of being an apologist, but then we were all psychopathic sociopathic dysfunctional republicans in the worst days of the recent troubles.

Tabloid analysis is easy.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 09:33:32 AM

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.



Maybe it isn't your intention myles but it upsets me that others are insinuating that by not disassociating yourself from the Church in the wake of this means you are somehow condoning or at least excusing or ignoring what's gone on.

Well if you're going to use the GAA in this context, could I also liken parishes to clubs - the Catholic Church to me is more than a hierarchy - it's a community thing, much like the GAA club. 
I had a fantastic experience with those involved in the church while growing up, and since.  I don't want to see my parish community disintegrate.  The nuns and priests who had a bearing on my life were nothing but inspiring in their Christian values. 
And that to me is the Catholic Church - if any of those clergy that I had contact with on a regular basis were involved in any cover-up or directly in abuse, then I'd be disgusted on a personal level (and am with those I've never had any contact with), but I also won't forget how much comfort their colleagues brought me after a bereavement, the investment they put into teaching Christian behaviours and the joy and friendships they encouraged through involvement in parish life. 

What's being uncovered now is sad and the perpitrators (in whatever sense) should be held accountable, hopefully beginning with the replacement of those guilty parties still involved in the Church.  But on a daily basis, this affair will not change my memories or practices with the Church, and I hope that people don't try to make me feel guilty for it.

Rois -  I am not trying to upset you, genuinely asking the question. Neither am I trying to make you feel guilty. But the fact remains that the church is rotten to the core right from the top. That is now an established fact in my opinion. The good people that influenced you would be better off to take their christian values outside the church now and work from there or they risk getting sucked down with it. You are right too, the church is like a hierarchy or maybe even a monarchy. A monarchy that allowed unspeakable acts to happen. Even if there are good people within, I could not bring myself to give a penny to that organisation ever again for anything. I could never allow myself to be apart of any group that had an affiliation to such acts. I don't know if you have kids but I do and when you hear these things you think of your own kids and what they could have been subjected too. It makes me mad and i am not afraid to admit that.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: HowAreYeGettinOn on November 27, 2009, 10:01:31 AM
But the fact remains that the church is rotten to the core right from the top. That is now an established fact in my opinion.

Well said.

Miriam O'Callaghan asked an interesting question of Diarmuid Martin last night - it was along the lines of 'If you are so humbled / ashamed / troubled by these revelations, why don't you use your influence to do some good and ask some of the bishops named in the report, who are now serving in other dioceses in the country, to resign?'

Martin, despite his obvious decent intentions (and he is a quantum leap forward from his predecessors in that regard), gave the old reliable 'bishops should look into their own hearts and ask themselves the question...'-type answer. In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

Like Marie Collins, the abuse survivor said, nothing has really changed. The Catholic Church see this whole thing not as a mortifying scandal that necessitates a long (i.e. decades) period of contrition, humility and repentance on their behalf, but as state busybodies interfering in their business. They just want it all to go away so that they can get back to 'normal'.

There will be no great purge of offenders, no putting in place of transparent safety measures, no real effort to change on the Church's behalf. Just apologies like Martin's yesterday. They're just keeping their heads down, hoping that these reports stop soon. They haven't a notion of doing anything about their internal 'culture'.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Declan on November 27, 2009, 10:14:09 AM
Quote
In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

He can't sack anyone
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 27, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
The contempt in which the commission was held by the Vatican and the Papal Nuncio would lend weight to the argument that things haven't really changed that much :


Vatican 'snubbed Ireland church abuse inquiry' 
 
The handling of allegations of child sex abuse in Dublin was investigated
The inquiry into sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland has disclosed that the Vatican ignored formal requests for information.

The inquiry asked for details of reports on abuse sent to the Vatican by the Dublin archdiocese in 2006.

The Vatican did not reply but told the Irish Foreign Affairs department the request "had not gone through appropriate diplomatic channels".
The inquiry condemned church leaders for covering-up abuse for decades.

The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, which was published on Thursday, covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

The commission said it was independent of the government and therefore did not regard it as appropriate to use diplomatic channels when seeking information.

A request for information from the Papal Nuncio also was ignored. In February 2007, the commission wrote to the Dublin-based Papal Nuncio asking him to forward all relevant documents in his possession.

It also requested that he confirm whether he had any such documents but the Papal Nuncio did not reply.

Ashamed

Earlier this year, the commission again failed to receive a reply after sending the Papal Nuncio extracts from its draft report which referred to him and his office, as it was required to do.

The Vatican told The Irish Times it "was a matter for the local church involved".

A senior Vatican spokesman said diplomatic practice required that outside requests made to the governance of the Vatican pass through diplomatic channels, in this case the Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin and the Irish Embassy to the Holy See in Rome.

 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 27, 2009, 10:32:05 AM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

First time I've ever been called an 'aul wan'   :P  I ain't in my 70s or 80s... or even 50s! I don't now anyone was forced to go into the priesthood although I know of a woman whose son left the church and she felt such shame apparently said, "It would be better if he was dead." For someone who is such an expert on abuse you really personalise your messages.
.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 10:53:15 AM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?

I am also an active member of a GAA club and if this sort thing was happening and lets say covered up by a chairman or secretary or even an club executive i would be genuinely horrified but would i leave that club?
I most definitly would not.For two reasons
1 I absolutely love that club and would not ever dream of leaving it.
2 Why should i leave a club that is my birth right to be a part of and has been ingrained in my psyche from an early age because of a paedophile and a group of people who covered it up.I didnt do any thing wrong.

I would make sure that all memebers who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

Im not saying im going to make these changes to the catholic church but what i will do is talk to my parish preist and my parish council to make sure that in the future something like this wont happen in my parish because the protocols and systems are in place to prevent such a horrenendous act.

On another point i spent hours thinking to myself questioning my faith after watching prime time.
Forgiveness is a big value in any christian religion and i know i cant forgive these animals for the hurt they have caused to the church and if it was me or my child i kmow i wouldnt be able to forgive them.

Believe it or believe not but i am hurting badly because i am genuinely questioning my faith since revelations of this was revealed months ago and this new report has only sown fresh seeds of doubt in my mind.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 11:07:56 AM
So here we are again another report another outrage. The sheep will claim it was a minority and the government should have done this and that. Sure they said sorry. Sure they paid compensation. Is it worth going into it anymore? I just want to say this.

If you are a christian and believe in the bible as the word of God thats grand. If you want to lead a good life by the rules of the bible thats fine. But why why why do people need to be apart of an organisation that...

- Put their own survival above all else.
- That allows little children to be raped, abused and destroyed by its members.
- Protects the evil paedophilles within its ranks.
- Frustrates all attempts at investigation.
- Offers mealy mouthed apologies decades on.
- Thats fights tooth and nail not to compensate until public opinion (& dwindling crowds) force it.

I could add more but whats the point. The hardliner catholics on the board will avoid commenting on this thread, probably because they are still clinging to the "minority of bad apples" theory or the big bad "anti catholics" just turn it into a slagging match. Or maybe their brains have been short circuited by the shock of the truth. Maybe they can't deal with everything they believe in being turned on its head.

But stop and think - if you believe in the word of God as written in the bible, how can you belong to an organisation that perpetrates crimes so outrageous against the most vulnerable. Ask yourselves that.

I can only imagine the depressing responses I'll get...


As a practicing member of the catholic church why should i be painted with the same brush as these evil psychos.
I feel sorrow for the victims but why should these so called humans actions make me feel ashamed to be a catholic.
I or people like me have done nothing wrong.
I feel that the religion i believe has in done nothing wrong.

The church has done a terrible wrong that in this life will never be righted or forgotten about.
The only way it can continue to be existent with any degree of decency and respect is a big change from the inside out and from the top down especially in terms of modern thinking personnel.

But for you to come on here and question why i should be a catholic and support a religious belief because of some big cover up of a sicko society in the church is ludicrous.

I believe in the catholic faith because i have a faith.
I believe in all the good people can do in this world to help others and to make life easier for the more vulnerable.

Thats why im helping my neighbours look after their houses during the floods,thats why im looking after my elderly neighbours farm because hes not able to cause of the floods,thats why i visit a 80 year old man every saturday and sunday morning to make sure he is ok cause he is isolated,its why i support the neil mellon township fund,its why i train the u-10s in my club,its why i support concern and its why i love my child.

My faith helps me do all the above and none of what i do makes me any better or worse than you or anyone else in fact id say that the vast amount of members of this board are better people than me but my point is the catholic religion has so much good in it and that what makes me be a catholic.

The church should be criticised from the highest authority in the state,be made compensate its victims and relatives,all perpretrators and accomplaces be punished vigoursly including lay people and hierarchy of the judicial and policing systems who were in on the cover up.

However the practising people who are just catholics because its their religion should not be painted with the same brush and let them get on with their religion and let it try and do good for people.

Let this awful chapter in our history never be forgotton so we as a people can learn from the mistakes of the past.

You have completely missed the point. But at least you replied unlike most of the other devout catholics on the board. I presume that you are a christian first and foremost. That is believe in Jesus Christ, son of god sent to earth to save us. As a Christain you believe in the bible as the word of god. That is my starting point.

All a church is, is a vehicle for you to express the above beliefs is it not? There are many christian organised churches and there are many christians that live their lives by the bible without the need for any church.

What I am saying is why if you are a christain would you have anything to do with the catholic church that abuses kids and covers it up. Can you not be a christian outside of the catholic church and do all the things you list above.

A very simple analogy - I love GAA and am a member of a club. If that club were shown to be harbouring child abusers I would leave that club without hesitation. I might join another club or I might not but it doesn't stop me still loving the GAA does it?

I am also an active member of a GAA club and if this sort thing was happening and lets say covered up by a chairman or secretary or even an club executive i would be genuinely horrified but would i leave that club?
I most definitly would not.For two reasons
1 I absolutely love that club and would not ever dream of leaving it.
2 Why should i leave a club that is my birth right to be a part of and has been ingrained in my psyche from an early age because of a paedophile and a group of people who covered it up.I didnt do any thing wrong.

I would make sure that all memebers who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

Im not saying im going to make these changes to the catholic church but what i will do is talk to my parish preist and my parish council to make sure that in the future something like this wont happen in my parish because the protocols and systems are in place to prevent such a horrenendous act.

On another point i spent hours thinking to myself questioning my faith after watching prime time.
Forgiveness is a big value in any christian religion and i know i cant forgive these animals for the hurt they have caused to the church and if it was me or my child i kmow i wouldnt be able to forgive them.

Believe it or believe not but i am hurting badly because i am genuinely questioning my faith since revelations of this was revealed months ago and this new report has only sown fresh seeds of doubt in my mind.

If I may say this, is your "faith" not to God something that you can keep without being a member of anything. What you have to the catholic church is "allegiance" in my opinion. It is that I think you should be questioning.

Regarding the GAA club analogy. If the abusers were allowed to stay and work within the club would you still stay apart of it?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:17:45 AM

Well i dont see how they could be let stay but no im afraid if my club let them stay i would leave the club but do everything in my power to get rid of them from outside.

But in fairness thats a very long winded point because as well you know it wouldnt happen however the church has done this in the past and maybe they are still at it i dont know but if they are i condemn the church wholeheartedly.

I dont have an allegiance to the catholic church i have a belief in the catholic church which has been rocked to say the least.

My faith is in god our lord jesus and the Virgin Mary.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: theskull1 on November 27, 2009, 11:33:43 AM

Well i dont see how they could be let stay but no im afraid if my club let them stay i would leave the club but do everything in my power to get rid of them from outside.

But in fairness thats a very long winded point because as well you know it wouldnt happen however the church has done this in the past and maybe they are still at it i dont know but if they are i condemn the church wholeheartedly.

I dont have an allegiance to the catholic church i have a belief in the catholic church which has been rocked to say the least.

My faith is in god our lord jesus and the Virgin Mary.

You say it wouldn't happen in regards to an abuser being allowed to stay within a club rossie and you'd be right on that (you, me and the rest of us live in the real world  :-\). But what if you found out that there was a culture of covering up these abuses in your club and that you then found out the truth about what so many influencial clubmen did to keep it hush hush rather than exposing the perputrator and protecting the vunerable within your community. Could you work with these individuals in your club knowing that and take leadership from such people? I think you know the answer to that question.

As others have said ...you don't need the trappings of a religion to have faith in a god
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: rossie mad on November 27, 2009, 11:53:51 AM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

I think ive already answered that.
I couldnt work with them if they were still allowed work and would expose everyone involved including the perpertrator as well as the people who covered it up.

I would then make sure they could never join my or any other club for life and then would try with the help of others rebuild the club structure so this wouldnt happen again.

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.

I see the point of the religioous trappings and faith in god  but do i denounce everything ive grown to believe because of the wrong of others and what they did in my and others like me name.

I am asking myself that queston at this point in time.

By the way myles and skull ye arnt helping the whole situation either as the more i read ye the more i wonder. ;D

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: HowAreYeGettinOn on November 27, 2009, 11:56:41 AM
Quote
In other words, he ain't gonna sack no-one.

He can't sack anyone

Fair enough, but he could ask them to resign, which given the amount of public pressure that would then follow would surely amount to the same thing (at least I'd hope it would).
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: winghalfun on November 27, 2009, 11:57:23 AM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: johnneycool on November 27, 2009, 12:07:37 PM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

Well according to Dermot Ahern they will, so we'll have to wait on that happening but I won't be holding my breath. I'd say most of the perpetrators will have to answer for their crimes at the pearly gates.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 27, 2009, 12:09:48 PM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

Well according to Dermot Ahern they will, so we'll have to wait on that happening but I won't be holding my breath. I'd say most of the perpetrators will have to answer for their crimes at the pearly gates.
[/b]


What Pearly gates ??  ;)  More fiction ?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: HowAreYeGettinOn on November 27, 2009, 12:10:09 PM
I would make sure that all members who acted in such ways and covered up such acts would be first brought to justice under civil law and then make sure that they were never a member of the GAA again or a member of ANY club again.

I would try and rebuild the club with sweeping changes in protocols and coaching set ups so that a level of trust could be built up between the club members and parents who undoubtedly would be very wary of letting their children near such a club again.

It might not work but at least i would try.

RM, your attitude is the one we all wish the church would adopt regarding these scandals. If there was a SERIOUS intent demonstrated by the church to deal with the scandals along the lines you've mentioned - not just apologies, which Diarmuid Martin himself admitted yesterday will never be adequate to heal survivors' pain - then I might go back to church myself, or even have some respect for the church. Right now I have none.

Yes, there are good priests, and all of this is desperately unfair on them. But they're not speaking up in this debate either. Where is the movement within the priesthood to rid the church of this corruption? If the 'good priests' don't start that, who will?

The church continue to show, not by their words but by their (in)action, that they have no intention of doing anything to change their ways. In their world, all of this is an irritating imposition on them.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: theskull1 on November 27, 2009, 12:17:43 PM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 12:20:47 PM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

I think ive already answered that.
I couldnt work with them if they were still allowed work and would expose everyone involved including the perpertrator as well as the people who covered it up.

I would then make sure they could never join my or any other club for life and then would try with the help of others rebuild the club structure so this wouldnt happen again.

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.

I see the point of the religioous trappings and faith in god  but do i denounce everything ive grown to believe because of the wrong of others and what they did in my and others like me name.

I am asking myself that queston at this point in time.

By the way myles and skull ye arnt helping the whole situation either as the more i read ye the more i wonder. ;D

Best of luck coming to a decision.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 27, 2009, 12:23:01 PM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

I'm sure the people who did the actual acts will be prosecuted, but what about those that covered it up. They are EQUALLY guilty but will face no penalty. The law needs to be changed in this regard. Only the church can deal with them now and there is little hope of that.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 27, 2009, 12:33:28 PM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

I'm sure the people who did the actual acts will be prosecuted, but what about those that covered it up. They are EQUALLY guilty but will face no penalty. The law needs to be changed in this regard. Only the church can deal with them now and there is little hope of that.



Do you remember this being rammed down your throat ? Penalty will be waiting for them at those gates !



"I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do"




Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 27, 2009, 02:44:28 PM
Regarding the GAA club analogy. If the abusers were allowed to stay and work within the club would you still stay apart of it?

Or if the club constitution stated that the reputation of the club and it's executive was more important than the safety of children?

Or if the club constitution outlined how to deal with criminals outside of the civil law?

Or if the club constitution was regarded (at least in practice) to over-ride civil law?

/Jim.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 05:27:20 PM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: redhugh on November 27, 2009, 05:35:58 PM
Rossie mad - in an earlier post you claim that the vast majority on the board here are better people than you.This is simply not true.You're  certainly no worse than anyone on here, in fact I'd say, you're probably a better person than many of us.
Personally I have a very strong faith in God.I was brought up a catholic and had a strong belief in the catholic church for most of my life.I have travelled a fair bit, and always in times of need sought and found sanctuary in the church,nomatter where in the world.I tried to live my life according to the churches teachings as much as I could.But when it began to dawn on me what this church that had been such a big part of my life had been up to,it made me feel sick - seriously.

You are right in saying that forgivness is a big part of what we believe in.I for one, feel that if I'm honest I cannot forgive so many lives being destroyed over and over,for such a long period of time,while the supposed men of God kept it all quiet.
I know that there is a lot of good in the church,and that a lot of good work is done.I know many good priests who are horified by all that has gone on in this church that they have devoted their lives to.I just feel that I can no longer be a part of this church.Good luck trying to find your answer - I did'nt come by mine easily.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!

It's not just going without, it's enforced abstinence, or supposed to be, and I'd reckon there were more than a few that took that vow under emotional duress. And I haven't said that that's the sole reason, but it is part of the mix IMO. If it isn't, why don't the non-Catholic churches have the same problem to the same degree (they all have their perverts, but not to the extent that the Catholic Church does)?

Can you answer me that?

Of course, like I also said, it became a bolthole for perverts too, with the complicity of the State. Shameful.



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on November 27, 2009, 07:12:05 PM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)

Athiesm is as bad as some people think, worse.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 07:33:08 PM
Excuse my igorance but there is one thing that confuses me very much.
Why can't these animals (those that are still alive) be prosecuted with the full rigour of the the law?

This is the crux of the problem in Ireland. The perpetrators and everyone who facilitated them or interfered with any official investigation into this should all be prosecuted. But this won't happen.

Firstly the fact that we are reading about this as yet another investigation report tells me that it will be filed under the same limbo status as the tribunals. Nothing will come out of it until it is a police investigation.

Secondly 180 odd priests were investigated and only 11 were named. This investigation doesn't include anything after 2004 so the mantra of 'sub judice' is a tonne of shite as the other 170 (I know some are dead) are hardly all before the courts for the last 5 years are they?

Thirdly there have been 130 odd complaints since so this has not been stopped, if anything it has gotten worse but the Church are against any other Diocese being investigated. So far there have been two, Ferns in 2005 which was described as 'the worst Diocese in the world' and now in 2009 Dublin which is worse that the worst Diocese in the world. They should all be investigated, by the Gárdaí, now!

Finally, the Vatican has behaved disgracefully. They are beneath contempt as far as I am concerned on one hand preaching the Gospel while on the other hiding behind diplomatic procedures to protect pedophiles.

I would advocate the immediate breaking off of Diplomatic Relations with the Vatican and the seizing of all their assets, until they furnish the DPP with every document they hold concerning any Irish victims of child abuse. The CAB legislation might allow it and if not introduce some that does.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 07:38:12 PM
i actually thought to myself this morning when would you join the debate ;D

However fo rme to do this within the catholic church is nigh impossible as already said i will talk to my parish preist and may even ask for a meeting with our bishop to discuss the current protocols in place to make sure something like this wont happen in my parish/diocese in the future.


As long as we question rather than accept dogma then I think were all on the right path rossie (even though we're on two different one's)  ;)

Any talk you have with your priest/bishop will be all about them trying to quell the discussions regarding this sorry mess. You will get lots of soft words and admissions of shame and guilt, but they will trot out that language to everyone troubled soul who comes in the hope that it will help get things back to normal. Justice will not come into their thinking. The congregations are being played for fools

I wish you well on your journey....and always remember the dark side (athiesm) isn't as bad as you think  :)
All these high faluting ideas you have and you think you are so right in them and you can't even spell what you believe or don't believe in  :D
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on November 27, 2009, 07:40:26 PM
If i hear one more Bishop,Priest, or apologists of any ilk, say they are on a learning curve, i will go demented. Did they not know the difference between right and wrong, what is it they are learning. I still support the Church, and recognise that without the laity there is no Church. When the Laity demand the removal of all personell involved in covering up these horrific crimes, and force changes in structure and organisation which prevent decent priests and people from voicing concerns and being heard, then and only then will meaningful and genuine change be effected..I pray this will happen soon
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 09:16:35 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Pangurban on November 27, 2009, 09:27:49 PM
Totally agree Ardmhachaabu, no one should be demonised except the guilty, and i include those involved in the cover up amongst the guilty. But you and i both know that if the laity do not demand and force the speed of change, very little will happen. We owe it too the vast majority of good Priests, to lift this burden from them
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 09:30:45 PM
Totally agree Ardmhachaabu, no one should be demonised except the guilty, and i include those involved in the cover up amongst the guilty. But you and i both know that if the laity do not demand and force the speed of change, very little will happen. We owe it too the vast majority of good Priests, to lift this burden from them

Agreed. The rush to avoid scandal ends up causing the tarring of innocent and decent people with the same brush as those being protected.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 09:35:10 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
I disagree muppet, I think you will find that the people are the Church for that Arch-Diocese, just like any other
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 09:39:14 PM
Pangurban, tell me this, what are they supposed to do?

There are still cases coming to light.  Whose fault is that?  It's not the victim's fault.  It's not the Church's fault.  It's the fault of all the perpetrators and the people who actively covered it up.  Of all the men and women in Ireland who have been or are currently members of religious orders who are without blame I don't see why they should be demonised like some posters are trying to do.  Those men/women who haven't been charged with anything but have questions to answer have to examine their own consciences - if there is evidence to charge them then they should be charged and if convicted they should never see the light of day, in my opinion as a father.

The 4 Arch-Bishops of Dublin were the Church for that Arch-Diocese.
I disagree muppet, I think you will find that the people are the Church for that Arch-Diocese, just like any other

That is mere semantics. The people in positions of authority make the decisions on behalf of the Church, not the people. In fact more than any other organisation I can think of, the people have no say whatsoever. It is all dogma.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:01:48 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:10:37 PM
What are you, a psychologist?  :P  These 'good priests' you talk about... they are celebate, many for years, and don't rape (and beat little children). Blaming this as a reaction to celebacy is like an excuse for them. anyway they werent celebate!! They were getting their perverted needs met as paedophiles same as paedos who molest their own children and are married.   

Jeez you don't half talk crap at times fox. Three questions for you:

1. How is it that there are so many more paedophiles in the orders than in ordinary walks of life, as a percentage? And I know that it has acted as a bolthole for a certain number of perverts but that doesn't explain it all.
2. What the fcuk are you on about? If you're saying that celibacy is not a factor at all (or the pressure to appear to be celibate), you try it for 12 months and report back.
3. Should celibacy be scrapped?

For an oul wan I would have thought you had some inkling of the pressure on individuals not so long ago to go off and join the priesthood, whether they had a notion to or not. And if you did go off, but without a notion of abstaining for all eternity, well that wouldn't be the most pleasant thing in the world.

Wtf? Going without will not turn you in to a pervert! There are ordinary lay people who go without too, there's no correlation between celibacy and raping children!

That's just a lazy suggestion as to why or how the Catholic Church gathered up so many perverts!

It's not just going without, it's enforced abstinence, or supposed to be, and I'd reckon there were more than a few that took that vow under emotional duress. And I haven't said that that's the sole reason, but it is part of the mix IMO. If it isn't, why don't the non-Catholic churches have the same problem to the same degree (they all have their perverts, but not to the extent that the Catholic Church does)?

Can you answer me that?

Of course, like I also said, it became a bolthole for perverts too, with the complicity of the State. Shameful.
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:13:23 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:28:44 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 10:36:31 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.



Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 27, 2009, 10:38:35 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 27, 2009, 10:50:14 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 10:58:34 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow.
Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from! 
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 11:14:19 PM
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from!

I've already said I don't have proof (but when the only evidence you have are the prevailing factors, you make a reasoned judgement, then you test the hypothesis). And no, I'm not saying when people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, feck off PoG, and read back a bit and quit putting words in my mouth. Lazy fecker, you like straw-men arguments.

I've already said what you're saying in your second paragraph about the haven, many, many posts ago. Ho hum  ::)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Franko on November 27, 2009, 11:17:36 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow.
Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
You don't have one shred of evidence to back that view.  You're basically saying that if people don't have sex they turn to paedophiles, that's some statement.  Many paedophiles are married men,, where does that fit in to your view?

I think it's more likely the case that the chuch was viewed as a safe haven for some of these people who probably knew they were sexual delinquents before the joined the priesthood. Once in the opportunity to abuse arose, aided by people's blind trust in them and the power they had over people and the knowledge that they would get away with it, and that was just to much for them to walk away from!

I have to agree with FOSB here.  I dont think that celibacy was the main factor in these priests doing what they did. However, to forcibly suppress the natural human urge to have sex has to cause some sort of psychological disruption in a person and to think that it was not a factor at all is being very naive imho.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 27, 2009, 11:18:51 PM
absolute nonsense
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ONeill on November 27, 2009, 11:22:53 PM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.

Tremendous post FoSB and sums up my views of this horrendous history.

What are the cases of abuse in Italy or South America compared to here?

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 27, 2009, 11:32:51 PM
What are the cases of abuse in Italy or South America compared to here?

Fair question Shane, and something I've wondered about myself. It seems that sexual abuse is more prevalent with adults than minors in the non-Anglophone areas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: ardmhachaabu on November 28, 2009, 12:01:28 AM
I have no idea why or how the catholic church managed to gather up such a collection of perverts but I'm sure it has nothing to do with being celibate.  Once again, being celibate does not make you rape children! No matter what circumstances they took the vow under.

So my analysis is lazy, yet you can't offer up one single explanation.

Whether you like it or not PoG, or whether you just want to jump on the moral high ground and shout shame all around you, there's a reason for everything. I can't countenance what these individuals have done, I just can't conceive of the circumstances that could or would lead me to such morally bankrupt actions, but nor can I countenance what a large percentage of Germans did during WWII, yet I know they did it, and I know there must be a reason.

Like I said, celibacy is one factor, in my opinion.

Another was Irish partition, and Dev has a lot to answer for here. Such was the exalted, unassailable, irreproachable position of the Catholic Church in the church-state that materialised in the 26 counties after partition, that they (the Catholic Church) had carte-blanche to indulge their most uncharitable, unkind, and thoroughly nasty perversions, throughout not just the 26, but the 32 counties. Not all of them though, but far, far too many.

So, the confluence of those two critical factors (IMHO), celibacy and partition, sowed the seeds of a horrible, despicable legacy. Not just here, for the Catholic Church in both the US and Australia are currently being taken to the cleaners for the same sickness. None of the Protestant churches, none, are going through the same rigours though.

Celibacy is not just a meaningless, anachronistic vow, it's a potentially perverting vow. Why should we take the chance and not get rid of it now, especially when married Anglicans are being welcomed with open arms into the Vatican's fold? Remove the possibility that it provides a haven for the perverted in the first instance, regardless of its potential to twist. I don't care much for the Catholic Church, haven't done since the early eighties, so my concern for the removal of celibacy is not one of Church atonement, it's one of concern for the young innocent.
FoSB :)

I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 28, 2009, 12:11:24 AM
I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)

I'm not knocking it for everyone ardmhachaabu, but my preference would be for it to be a voluntary thing, not compulsory (there are so many instances of humans going off the rails with compulsory edicts that it's just not funny). I would like to see the compulsory aspect abolished, then it would truly be a thing of vocation, not compulsion.

And I respect your beliefs and faith, don't get me wrong. If the values of Christianity were adhered to by those who profess to love it most we wouldn't find ourselves in the mess we now do.
Good luck to you, sincerely.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on November 28, 2009, 12:20:53 AM
I think that the vow of celibacy which some clergy take is a very important part of their vocation - their vocation being to love everyone

You know my craic, my faith is very important to me - I am not asking it to be important to you or anyone else, with respect.  I don't think it's too much to ask for my thoughts to be respected in the same way as others want their beliefs in a 7 headed purple monster - actually those who say they believe in something so ludicrous are more likely to be believed than someone like  me with a simple faith :)

I'm not knocking it for everyone ardmhachaabu, but my preference would be for it to be a voluntary thing, not compulsory (there are so many instances of humans going off the rails with compulsory edicts that it's just not funny). I would like to see the compulsory aspect abolished, then it would truly be a thing of vocation, not compulsion.

And I respect your beliefs and faith, don't get me wrong. If the values of Christianity were adhered to by those who profess to love it most we wouldn't find ourselves in the mess we now do.
Good luck to you, sincerely.

Well said fear, your last sentence speaks volumes about you and sums up perfectly the state Christianity finds itself in.

I removed my last post because I am a coward, that said I love God and understand fully that none of us should put to much faith in man, any man, I did and I think to a certain extent we all did before the news of abuse broke. I cannot post on this thread anymore, it is too emotive.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 28, 2009, 02:13:09 AM
Begone with you, begone!

From today's (28th Nov) Irish Times:

Pressure mounts on bishops named in abuse report to resign


PATSY McGARRY & HARRY McGEE

PRESSURE ON the five bishops who still hold office and whose handling of clerical child sex abuse was addressed by the Dublin diocesan report increased throughout yesterday.

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said all bishops implicated in the report should resign immediately. He said those who were in positions of authority in Dublin archdiocese, and who knew what was going on, should no longer continue in such positions.

“This is another appalling litany of shame. Apologies here are not good enough,” he said.

Former Labour Party leader Pat Rabbitte said that any bishop “directly implicated” in the Dublin report “should have no role as a school patron”.

Meanwhile, Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy has ordered Assistant Commissioner John O’Mahoney to commence an investigation into the findings of the report.

The relevant bishops are the Bishop of Limerick, Donal Murray, whose handling of a particular allegation was described as “inexcusable” in the report; Bishop Jim Moriarty of Kildare Leighlin diocese; Bishop Martin Drennan of Galway diocese; and the two Dublin auxiliary bishops, Bishop Ray Field and Bishop Éamonn Walsh.

Speaking at foundation day ceremonies at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital in Crumlin yesterday, the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said the story of how the sexual abuse of children was managed in the archdiocese, as shown in the report, “was inexcusable”.

He noted that “regrettably this hospital was also the scene of abuse by at least two chaplains, who exploited their role of representing the care of Jesus for the children at their most vulnerable. Information about that abuse was inexcusably not shared with the hospital authorities, even though the archbishop of the time was also the chairman of the board.”

He pointed out that the Dublin report “drew attention to the need “to clarify exactly what is the role of the HSE in relation to non-familial abusers”.

Yet, he continued, “in the official Government statement yesterday [Thursday] the only reply to such a vital question, some four years after the Ferns report, was to say that it requires ‘further consultation’.”

Responding to the Dublin diocesan report, the Archbishop of Tuam Michael Neary said that “everyone is deeply disgusted and disillusioned by the awfulness of the abuse, the vulnerability of the victims and the betrayal of the sacred trust placed in those who carried out this abuse”.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 28, 2009, 05:48:05 AM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one

Oh dear, what a wonderful Catholic you are telling others, who you haven't even met, about their faith. You deny that the Church is responsible for the abuse of hundreds of children that were abused. Your absolution of the organisation is typical of the attitude that has perpetrated the cover-ups for decades.

You point blank refuse to discuss the abuse and resort to playing the man confident in your own Godly superiority.

The Catholic Church is responsible for the sexual abuse of hundreds of children in Ireland and thousands worldwide. That is an established fact and they have admitted it. You cannot change that.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: orangeman on November 28, 2009, 01:01:07 PM
My own opinion as to why it happened was because some of them ( not all ) were pushed into the priesthood by their mothers who thought that having a priest in the family was something to rejoice about and it conferred on the donor family a respect that hitherto perhaps ( not in all cases ) wasn't there.


Obviously forced celibacy was part of the problem.


The fact that priests were held in disproprtionately high esteem suggested to some that they could get away with almost anything - some of them took full advantage.


In addition, some abusers were already there when some of them went to the various seminaries and there was almost a culuture of abuse.


Therefore, there are no simple one word answers.

Here's an interesting view form today's Indo.



There are no simple answers to why it happened
By PATRICIA CASEY


Saturday November 28 2009

The theories that explain paedophilia do not provide any optimism that it can be prevented

The unfolding of the terrible horror of child sexual abuse by clerics in Ireland that has emerged over the past decade raises huge questions.

Since the publication of the Murphy report on Thursday, the focus has been on the collusion by Church and State to conceal this truth and protect the guilty.

However, a fundamental questions that begs for an answer is why did priests behave as they did? The answer is essential if such scandals are to be avoided in the future and if children are to be truly protected.

The obvious angle for many commentators has been to focus on celibacy. Yet the belief that marriage is a cure for paedophilia is flawed and is without foundation. Catholic priests in other countries have not been linked to child abuse to the extent that they have been in the English-speaking Church.


Indeed, Spanish, Italian and German Catholics describe bewilderment on hearing of the molestation of children in Ireland, the US and Australia.

Indeed, if child abusers were largely celibate then the frequency of child molestation generally should plummet since the setting in which it is currently reported is within the family usually, and those most at risk are children whose mothers are living with partners rather than with the biological father -- in other words, the child is living with a man who has no emotional tie to the child.

A recurring theme in much of the scientific literature, as well as from clinical reporting on child abuse, is that there is a cycle of abuse from one generation to the next. Not all studies support this thesis, but many do.

A possible explanation is that the rationalisations of the abuser, such as claims that the behaviour is an expression of love are incorporated into the thinking of the victim.

The understandable shame of what has happened becomes transmuted in a belief that the actions are an expression of care.

Furthermore, many children will never have known true parental love and the only "love" they will have experienced is the sexualised form -- hence their early sexualisation.

A further Fiach Kelly of abuse rests with the misuse of alcohol that many abused adolescents resort to in order to deaden the pain and block the memories of the abuse they suffered. Over time, whatever sexual inhibitions they possess are dissolved by alcohol and the brake pads of guilt, shame and restraint are no longer operational.

But it is vulnerable children who are usually targeted by abusers. Abusers do not relate easily in mature adult relationships and they feel more comfortable in those that do not make demands for reciprocity, trust, responsibility.

Instead, they crave power and control and seek out those who are unable to defend themselves against sexual pressures. In this respect, personality, immaturity and flawed sexual development are found in all child abusers, clerical or lay.

However, priests were in a unique position of trust within society and so had ready access to children. Whether they were attracted to the priesthood for that reason is unknown but, in my opinion, this is unlikely. After all, there were other methods by which they could gain access to children without having to survive the rigours of seminary life, the years of study and the loneliness of the priest's life.


It is possible that some entered the priesthood not because they wanted to, but because society and their parents expected them to.

Their religious vocation was externally rather than internally driven and they lacked the personal maturity to make independent choices.

Coupled with inadequate preparation for a life in the priesthood that involved loneliness and, among other things, celibacy, they decompensated into the sexual abuse of children. In their personalities they were weak but the abuse of children conferred a vicarious sense of power.


There is no single, magic bullet to explain the cause of paedophilia and seeking such will only yield fool's gold. And the theories that explain it do not provide any optimism that it can be prevented.

Above all, we must not accept claims it can be cured -- only tragedy will follow as the Murphy report shows.

Patricia Casey is Professor of Psychiatry at UCD/Mater HosPital

- PATRICIA CASEY

Irish Independent

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Main Street on November 28, 2009, 01:04:30 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.




Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2009, 01:13:28 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: muppet on November 28, 2009, 01:21:11 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!

Why is that important?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2009, 01:24:46 PM
Dev, partition and ......pedophiles? ::)

I have not come across one research which supports the contention that pedophiles are more prevalent in the Catholic Church nor have I come across one research which examines the effect and prevalence of celibacy as a factor. I wouldn't discount celibacy as contributing to an already devious, perverse mind in a position of almost absolute power.
In my home town, the children got abused by the parish priest, a teacher/GAA official and a traveling salesman. Both the priest and the teacher were protected for years by their own deviousness in manipulating the social environment that existed.

Celibacy in the traditional meaning, is total abstinence of sex, that means not even masturbation.
I would doubt that celibacy is followed to its full meaning.

So would i!

Why is that important?
I dont think it is important or really relevant if we're talking about why there was so much abuse, just passing comment that I doubt many, if any stick to to celibacy, to it's full meaning.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 28, 2009, 05:08:10 PM
muppet, I disagree.

Tell me this, when was the last time that you were in a Catholic Church because you wanted to be?  I don't mean weddings, funerals, christenings.  I mean, when did you last go in to say a prayer (assuming you are a Catholic)

If you don't consider yourself to be a Catholic, fair enough, you can't tell those of us who do believe that we are wrong

It would take arrogance of the most extreme nature to do that and I am sure you aren't going to do that...

I am a Catholic. I don't consider myself as being responsible for child abuse. I do consider the Church completely responsible and in particular those in power who hide the actions of others.
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Individual members of the Church were wrong, wrong beyond what I can put into words.  Not every member of the church can be found guilty because a minority of clergy engaged in behaviour which is/was/always will be wrong

Yes but your earlier line of argument was that 'The Church' was not responsible. That is a cop out IMHO. The Vatican are a disgrace and 4 of the last five Arch Bishops of Dublin were almost as bad. We know the former Bishop of Ferns failed miserably in his duties and we only know these things because of the 2 dioceses investigated. 'The Church' don't want the other dioceses investigated.

These are the decision-makers of 'The Church'.

'The Church' has hidden these scumbags long enough.
Oh dear, you are now a liar - you are not a Catholic in anything but name.  In other words, you telling the world you are doesn't make you one - you need to actually follow the teaching of the church instead of creating one of your own to suit whatever agenda it is you are following, which most certainly isn't a Catholic one

This is the pathetic depressing type of comment I spoke about earlier. No better man to come out with it. What Muppet has said is the truth, is there something in the catholic teaching that says you only speak the truth as long as it is not critical of the church?

The church allowed priests to abuse kids, covered it up and hindered and fought tooth and nail to be keep it covered up. This attitude is right the way to the top in the vatican. You keep telling yourself it is all a few bad apples, stick your head in the sand and wait for it all to blow over. You are made of the same stuff as the bishops and cardinals. Sounds like you missed your calling.

The people abused in this country have done us a great service by fighting for justice against the catholic church. Now we can all see what a scourge they have been on this country. Go back to any major event in Irish history that the catholic church are all over it with their self serving manipulation. From the fenians, to the irb, the blackening of parnell, Infiltrating the land league all the way to the troubles they have been there looking after number 1. No Christian needs to have anything to do with this church to be a good Christian.

Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Hardy on November 28, 2009, 06:04:06 PM
is there something in the catholic teaching that says you only speak the truth as long as it is not critical of the church?

Dunno about that, but I learned yesterday that there's something called "mental reservation" that allows clerics to lie while pretending, even to themselves, to be telling the truth. Trust the sophists of the church to come up with something as mind-splitting as that.

It seems to be the church equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your back when you make a promise.

This is how it works - when you make a statement where you don't want to tell the truth, you make whatever statement you want to, but "mentally reserve" or hold back in your mind, the actual truth. That is, you lie, but it's allowed because, well, you pretend not to be lying. A sort of double lie, really.

Thus, some parish priest who wanted to avoid meeting a woman who had been challenging him about abuse allegations in his parish could tell his curate, "tell her I'm not in". He was, apparently, "mentally reserving" the addendum "to her". He wasn't in to her.

Likewise, the ex-archbishop (don't you love people who give themselves titles with words like "arch" and "superior" in them) of Dublin felt able to state that he co-operated with an enquiry by mentally reserving the word "fully".

Wouldn't that give you a squint, even trying to think about such a mentality?

Who could blame anyone for taking a two-by-four to a b**tard like that while "mentally reserving" the intent to do him any damage?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: haranguerer on November 28, 2009, 09:18:47 PM
The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2009, 09:25:20 PM
The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.

Are they raping children or just breaking their vow of celibacy?
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: mylestheslasher on November 28, 2009, 09:35:19 PM
The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.

I don't agree that celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. Paedophilles also infiltrated Swim Ireland where 3 of the highest guys in that organisation were abusing kids for years. To me this demonstrates a couple of things...

- There will always be sick sc**bag paedophilles.
- Paedophilles will always seek to get access to kids. Swim Ireland and the catholic church were easy targets.
- Paedophilles are often married men or in relationships. The fact that they are having sexual relations is not stopping them abusing kids.

Surely if a priest were being negatively affected by being celibate they would go and pay a prostitute. I don't think celibacy has any sensible reason but I don't think it changes men into Paedophilles.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: milltown row on November 28, 2009, 10:20:15 PM
Paedophiles are clever in that they enter Vocations like teaching, priesthood, Boy Scout leaders and other jobs that will bring them into contact with children.

The church is to blame for covering up, the state is to be blamed for ignoring pleas from victims, families are to be blamed for not listening to their children.

The celibacy is not the reason for raping children; the feckers doing it are just animals and need to be put down. But I believe the Catholic Church would be stronger if priest could marry or have partners.

I’m a non practicing Catholic, don't care much for religion and not against anyone who does.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: longrunsthefox on November 29, 2009, 12:12:01 AM
I cut my stick with that shower long ago... wouldn't darken their door. Just weddings and funerals. Sick f**s. If it was any other outfit they'd be disbanded. Sad thing is tens of thousands will go to mass today and listen to their mealy mouthed bullshit and throw money on the plate. God love their wit. 
Truest words came from a priest from Derry... Michael Canny (I'll give the 'father' bit a miss  ::) ) He said, "The church has no credibility, no standing, and no moral authority."
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 29, 2009, 12:52:39 AM
Once again, Fintan O'Toole calls it exactly as it is (WARNING: has the capacity to induce nausea!):

Church relationship with Irish society has itself been abusive


OPINION: The Roman Catholic Church’s great achievement in Ireland has been to so disable our capacity to think about right and wrong that parents of abused children apologised for the abusing priest

IN HIS pastoral letter of February 1979, Archbishop of Dublin Dermot Ryan drew attention to the “corruption of the young”. And he was quite specific about the forces that were responsible for it. He attacked “the modern era of enlightenment and permissiveness”, and stated that “the new frankness and openness in regard to sexual matters had not made people more healthy in mind and body, but less healthy”.

The corollary of Archbishop Ryan’s complaint was, of course, that a lack of frankness and openness in sexual matters would make for a healthier society, and would protect the young from corruption. Like the three other holders of the office scrutinised in the Murphy report, Ryan certainly practised the first part of what he preached. He was a great enemy of openness and frankness, and a great practitioner of the arts of evasion and cover-up. It was the second part of the formula – the protection of the young – that gave him trouble.

In 1981, for example, Ryan sent a Father X as curate to Clogher Road church in the Dublin Corporation housing estate of Crumlin. He knew that this man was a dangerous and manipulative paedophile who was set on attacking children, as Ryan himself noted, “from six to 16”. He knew that X cultivated parents who involved themselves in school or parish activities so as to gain access to their children.

He knew that in one previous case, “Having got access to the home through this acquaintanceship, Father X abused a young son of six years of age.”

Yet not alone did Ryan send X to Crumlin to continue his assaults on children, but he colluded with the activities of his auxiliary bishop, James Kavanagh, in interfering in a criminal investigation into X’s behaviour, persuading one set of parents not to press charges against the priest.

As the commission concludes, Ryan took a “close personal interest” in the case of Fr X: “He protected Fr X to an extraordinary extent; he ensured, as far as he could, that very few people knew about his activities; it seems that the welfare of children simply did not play any part in his decisions.”

In attempting to come to terms with the institutionalised depravity of the Roman Catholic Church’s systematic collaboration with child abusers, it is useful to start by considering the contradiction between Ryan’s preaching about the “corruption of the young” and his role as a facilitator of sexual assaults on children.

Is there, indeed, a contradiction at all? Or are we not, rather, dealing with two sides of the same debased coin?

The arrogance and obscurantism of a church leadership that could rail against openness and frankness is in fact completely consistent with the same hierarchy’s consistent preference for secrecy over truth and for self-interest over the interests of children and families.

When all the numbing details of the report are absorbed, we have to reassemble the big picture of the institutional church’s relationship with Irish society. And we have to say that that relationship itself has been an abusive one. The church leadership behaved towards society with the same callousness, the same deviousness, the same exploitative mentality, and the same blindly egotistical pursuit of its own desires that an abuser shows towards his victim.

It is important to say that this is not a comment on the Catholic faith. “The Church,” as the report puts it, “is not only a religious organisation but also a human/civil instrument of control and power”. It is this second aspect – the instrument of control and power – that we have to understand.

We know that all institutions and subcultures have the capacity to create systems of denial and self-protection – think, for example, of the toleration of paedophiles within Irish swimming, or the support of artists and intellectuals for the child rapist Roman Polanski.

But in the case of the institutional Catholic Church we have an organisation with an unusually powerful mechanism of self-protection: the capacity to convince the society it is abusing to take part in the cover-up. The damage the church has done to Irish society lies in the ways it has involved that society in the maintenance of an abusive instrument of control and power.

It is easy to miss a central aspect of this whole scandal. The report is concerned with the actions of the church authorities and describes in damning detail their sense of being above the law of the land. (Cardinal Desmond Connell, for example, told the commission that “the greatest crisis in my position as Archbishop” was not, as might be imagined, his discovery of appalling criminality among his clergy, or even his own disingenuous public claims that “I have compensated nobody”, but the decision to allow gardaí access to diocesan files.) But it is striking that parents, teachers and wider communities seldom went to the police either.

This was not a matter of ignorance. It is clear that some of the paedophiles were not secretive and cunning, but reckless and flagrant. In the early 1970s, for example, Fr James McNamee, who had built a swimming pool in his house into which only young boys were allowed, was so notorious among the children in his Crumlin parish that “whenever the older boys in the area saw Fr McNamee, they either ran away or started throwing things and shouting insults at Fr McNamee. Apparently he was known as ‘Father smack my gee’.” If children were shouting abuse at a priest in 1970s Ireland, adults undoubtedly noticed. They must have known why.

Similarly, the appalling Patrick Maguire, who may have abused hundreds of children in Ireland, the UK and Japan, became, as the report notes, “astonishingly brazen”. He actually told the parents of a child he had just abused that the boy had a problem with his testicles. “Not surprisingly, the parents wondered how he had discovered that.”

Yet in most cases, parents who knew their children had been abused went to the bishop, not to the Garda. There may have been a mistrust of the Garda (sometimes well founded), or a fear of exposure in the courts. But, in Archbishop Ryan’s internal notes on the Father X case there is a more extraordinary explanation: “The parents involved have, for the most part, reacted with what can only be described as incredible charity. In several cases, they were quite apologetic about having to discuss the matter and were as much concerned for the priest’s welfare as for their child and other children.”

This was the church’s great achievement in Ireland. It had so successfully disabled a society’s capacity to think for itself about right and wrong that it was the parents of an abused child, not the bishop who enabled that abuse, who were “quite apologetic”.

It had managed to create a flock who, in the face of an outrageous violation of trust, would be more concerned about the abuser than about those he had abused and might abuse in the future. It had inserted its own “instrument of control and power” so deeply into the minds of the faithful that they could scarcely even feel angry about the perpetration of disgusting crimes on their own children.

This is, of course, precisely what paedophiles do to the children they abuse. They convince them that they are the guilty ones. The well-meaning local priest to whom Marie Collins – who has been a key figure in bringing this scandal to light – disclosed the fact that she had been abused as a child in Crumlin children’s hospital, told her “not to feel any guilt about what had happened”. He then, however, told her that “if she had guilt I could give her absolution”.

The suggestion that the victim should be absolved of sin speaks for itself. And it had its effect – Marie Collins did not disclose the abuse again for a number of years.

This ultimate triumph of making the victims guilty and their parents apologetic produced both an underlying contempt for the laity (especially in the working-class parishes where abusers were generally sent) and a sense of belonging to an untouchable elite.

The religious superior of the serial abuser Patrick Maguire captured both when he advised him not to pay too much attention to the views of the therapist he was attending: “You are a priest and you should not allow any person other than yourself to conclude that you ought not remain in ministry, albeit a limited one. I am distrustful of the capacity of any layman or woman to know what it means to be a priest.”

What it meant to be a priest was that, in the eyes of the church authorities, you were held to a different standard than the mere layman or woman. It was not just that you were not subject to the law, but that you were not really subject to Catholic teaching either.

All the episcopal fulminations about sexual sin were for the benefit of the ordinary punters. For the priests, there was a much more tolerant attitude. While bleating about the permissive society, the archbishops were often flippant about the sexual crimes of the clergy. Cardinal Connell, for example, told Marie Collins that the action of an abuser in taking pictures of the genitalia of young girls in the hospital “was not serious as it only involved the taking of photographs”.

All of this did immense harm to the victims and to the church itself. But it also harmed Ireland as a whole. The abusive relationship between church and society in which people were induced to collude in the maintenance of a corrupt and cynical system of power and control screwed up the Irish relationship with authority.

It deeply damaged the democratic and republican notion that power comes from the people, by creating a culture of shame, of weakness and of collusion. It taught us to live with, and believe that we loved, an arrogant and unaccountable kind of authority.

If we are ever to awaken once and for all from the nightmare described by the commission, we have to unlearn that lesson and create forms of collective authority that are open, accountable, lawful and genuinely democratic.
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 29, 2009, 02:01:43 AM
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!
Title: Re: Clerical abuse!
Post by: stew on November 29, 2009, 05:20:42 AM
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

money is the only thing that will make the cnuts realize how seriou