Wrote a blog about this with the first few paragraphs below. You can read the rest here; https://t.co/AVIRD7wxVP?amp=1
I crunched some numbers on the composition of the Gaelic Football all star teams between 2000-2019. Breaking that 20 year period into 4 lots of 5 years I found the following: Between 2000-2004 eighteen counties were represented across those five years. Between 2004-2009 it dropped to thirteen counties. Between 2010-2014 it dropped to eleven. For the past five years it dropped to eight.
The next five years look almost certain for Dublin to take up where they left off and Kerry will be their only serious rival. Another drop in county representation on the all star teams by the end of 2024 looks likely.
Since 1887 the GAA have administered over intercounty all Ireland finals every year. In terms of titles won; Kerry ran away with it (28% of All Irelands have been won by Kerry). Dublin are closing in on them but still eight titles off from catching up. Everyone else either had their own era or eras or never quite made the grade. What exactly is the next five years going to prove if it turns out how it looks presently? What will we learn from another five years that Dublin dominated with the odd Kerry all Ireland thrown in? We already know from the past 132 years of All Irelands that Kerry and Dublin were historically the two most formidable sides. What does it prove to see them continue telling us what we already know?
The intercounty system seems to have told us all it can. It will have ran its course if the next decade is a Dublin and Kerry carve-up. Its history has told Kildare and Mayo that their huge enthusiasm outweighed their talent and ability to win. It told Cork and Galway that they can expect a great title winning team every twenty years or so. It told Donegal, Tyrone and Armagh that patience and dedication allied with skill can be rewarded. Every county found their rung on the ladder and there is no practical reason to keep with an outdated system of county boundaries that are centuries old.
All well and good saying something doesn't work.
But if ye don't suggest an alternative with some information to back it up, then whats the point?
[I have an opinion, many will disagree with it, but I'm interested in hearing yours first.]
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 13, 2020, 03:55:15 PM
All well and good saying something doesn't work.
But if ye don't suggest an alternative with some information to back it up, then whats the point?
[I have an opinion, many will disagree with it, but I'm interested in hearing yours first.]
Did you read the entire blog or just the bit I've attacked above? Not a confrontational question, just it would be explained in that better.
Nope, didn't have time. Maybe better just bullet pointing the suggestions here rather than require folks to go off to another website.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 13, 2020, 05:19:13 PM
Nope, didn't have time. Maybe better just bullet pointing the suggestions here rather than require folks to go off to another website.
Listen you might be right, it's two clicks away and I like to get accurate numbers on the amount of the visits the piece would get. Not trying to be awkward.
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.
It's honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where I'll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.
what is the alternative a professional american franchise system of like 8 teams using a draft from club players each season you will have 8 teams based throughout the country teams like the Tyrone titans dublin capitols and the kildare kings and the belfast shamrocks and the cork chiefs.
It would destroy gaelic football and turn it into a cooperate enterprise (Maybe it that already) i see inter county games as the same as international sports its the representative game.
it think maybe something should be done to promote the club game maybe the radical idea of reducing all club counties to 8 or 10 teams and getting tv deals then the county champs of each county got into the club champions league.
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.
Quote from: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.
It's honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where I'll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.
Smells like clickbait.
Quote from: StephenC on February 17, 2020, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.
It's honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where I'll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.
Smells like clickbait.
Totally, no one should bite.
one of the most important things to remember about the GAA is how Parochial it is . interfere with the county set up and there is no way of know will the people follow not immediately anyway.
If you werr to put Mayo and sligo together as a team MB 'AT the moment' there may be 2 sligo lads on the Team so Mayo people would not object much but I can see it being of much interest to Sligonians and if it ws was completely open im not such many would care at all.
Its just the nature of GAA and it can be compare to makey up teams like Connaught Rugby who now only have a smattering of connaught players and Munster/Ulster are going the same way
Quote from: Eire90 on February 17, 2020, 11:06:38 AM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.
Ach would ye ever f**k away off with this stupid idea. Only someone with mental capacity of a goat would keep saying this.
Quote from: Eire90 on February 17, 2020, 11:06:38 AM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.
I agree with this bit.
It won't happen and even if it did the top teams would be seeded.
I against any system whose purpose id to stop the best team from winning , which is what most of these plans seem to entail
Quote from: rosnarun on February 17, 2020, 03:56:56 PM
I against any system whose purpose id to stop the best team from winning , which is what most of these plans seem to entail
Ok so Dublin are the best team. Why bother even playing the championship? ::)
Someone had to finish 2nd ;)
Or else ban Dublin for being too good.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 05:20:57 PM
Someone had to finish 2nd ;)
Or else ban Dublin for being too good.
HQ can't see the bigger picture. The inter county game is already on life support. Tiered championships will totally finish it off, and there's no way back from it.
The money men have decimated the game in 2 decades.
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
Imagine if Ros do get relegated (unlikely) and Mayo manage to beat them. Would many more players opt out from the Roscommon setup? Or would they be delighted to win the damn thing they didn't set out to win at the beginning of the year?
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 17, 2020, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.
The relentless trashings by Dublin Kerry etc in tier 1 will only last so long before players from the likes of Cavan Armagh Clare Fermanagh Westmeath etc, say f**k this!
The exodus of players and fans from the tier 2 teams will increase year on year, with 25 people at tier 2 games, and a few dozen at the tier 2 final. Probably played in the arsehole of nowhere.
Meanwhile, HQ will peddle the "everything is great" mantra, and Louth Leitrim Waterford etc are only stuck in tier 2 for the last 10 years because they're a pack of lazy bollixs who won't get off their arses. Nothing to do with funding, nothing at all.
Quote from: Eire90 on February 17, 2020, 11:06:38 AM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.
Please someone, send this man a few full stops!
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 17, 2020, 09:29:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
Imagine if Ros do get relegated (unlikely) and Mayo manage to beat them. Would many more players opt out from the Roscommon setup? Or would they be delighted to win the damn thing they didn't set out to win at the beginning of the year?
And if Cork don't get promoted (even more unlikely) we could end up playing them in the B Final a year after playing then in the Qtr Finals. 8)
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.
Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar. The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc. in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.
Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar. The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc. in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Is that not a description of the super 8s!
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2020, 09:59:05 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 17, 2020, 08:51:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.
The relentless trashings by Dublin Kerry etc in tier 1 will only last so long before players from the likes of Cavan Armagh Clare Fermanagh Westmeath etc, say f**k this!
The exodus of players and fans from the tier 2 teams will increase year on year, with 25 people at tier 2 games, and a few dozen at the tier 2 final. Probably played in the arsehole of nowhere.
Meanwhile, HQ will peddle the "everything is great" mantra, and Louth Leitrim Waterford etc are only stuck in tier 2 for the last 10 years because they're a pack of lazy bollixs who won't get off their arses. Nothing to do with funding, nothing at all.
Where is all the publicity & coverage on tv/radio that the likes of waterford/leitrim/louth/wexford footballers get every year in the championship or are these counties worried they'll lose their 30 secs of highlights from sunday game if they enter a Tier 2 competition?
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
The 90's were probably the most exciting for both codes. 8 different winners in football, 6 in hurling. Clare came from nowhere to win the hurling, Wexford too. Down Donegal and Derry likewise in football. Did it harm the inter county game that these teams were winning all Ireland's? Or Leitrim Clare Kildare won provincials? No, it gave more counties the belief that we can achieve too.
The GAA didn't collapse. Crowds were big. AI finals full house. If Sligo played Cavan I'm the AI final, it would still be sold out. You don't need Dublin Kerry finals to sell it out.
Dublin7, you mention publicity for lower counties. They're not going to get much in tier 2. Look at how Clare hurlers became household names all over Ireland in the 90's, Donegal footballers etc. That can happen for Waterford Carlow, Antrim, Limerick etc. A championship run for any county will create a buzz and get kids playing the games. That's what the GAA is all about. It's not about the best team winning every year. A run in the championship will do more for any county than coaches, facilities or winning the Mike Murphy cup. HQ can't see this.
How many years do you give tier 2 before being scrapped.
Wasnt much football excitement in most of the 1980s.
ten team league with 6 qualifying for top two get byes to semis you can have a mid summer break aswell or alternate between football and hurling.
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
We have that already. It's called the national football league..
Quote from: Eire90 on February 18, 2020, 01:18:23 PM
ten team league with 6 qualifying for top two get byes to semis you can have a mid summer break aswell or alternate between football and hurling.
And if you're county was in and around Division 2 would you be advocating such a scenario, why not let the top 10 turn fully pro and work away, you I know you can have a hell of a season and win nothing, no one is going win Sam anytime soon bar Dublin.
I'd agree GAA does seem to be at a crossroads at the minute. It's amateur in name only. There's huge money involved now and the money men of course want extra games between the bigger teams to bring in more revenue. They are not particularly interested in lessening the gap between the weaker and stronger counties.
Super 8's is the perfect example. With the backdoor the mantra was extra games improves teams so it would help the weaker counties. But they're not even trying to pretend anymore. Super 8's flies in the face of their philosophy of improving the weaker teams. It will improve the stronger teams only. It's all about the money.
Personally this is how I would like to see things go but it will never happen. Keep provincials, local derbies are a huge part of championship football. Straight knockout. Provincial champions straight to AI semis like old. 2nd Tier competition for all teams up to losing provincial semi finalists (could potentially have some big names in there).
That's it. Set up the 2nd tier as open draw straight knockout and run it off in the free weekends of the main AI championship. Finish both competitions in good time for the club competitions.
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.
Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar. The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc. in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Is that not a description of the super 8s!
Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.
There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 02:46:45 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.
Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar. The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc. in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Is that not a description of the super 8s!
Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.
There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.
You seem fixated on all counties playing again equal opposition, its sport and within GAA it is a unique sport, you play for the county you are from, this means talent comes and goes and teams change for the better or the worse. Why should a county be excluded from ever having the opportunity to play one of the current top 8 teams.
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
They are in the Provincials. Not too many turning up to watch in Leinster or Munster in recent years.
Any County let all its Clubs play in a single tier Championship???
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.
Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 03:17:55 PM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 02:46:45 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 09:44:04 AM
Quote from: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.
Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar. The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc. in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Is that not a description of the super 8s!
Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.
There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.
You seem fixated on all counties playing again equal opposition, its sport and within GAA it is a unique sport, you play for the county you are from, this means talent comes and goes and teams change for the better or the worse. Why should a county be excluded from ever having the opportunity to play one of the current top 8 teams.
Talent comes and goes, absolutely, and when your county gets a good crop of players and improve then there aim would be promotion and play 'bigger' counties on the way up through the leagues.
There is absolutely no benefit in teams getting hammered by Dublin and Kerry, and I have no doubt the players do not enjoy it. Just for the 'opportunity to play them'.
A good crop of players a promotion, interest grows in the county, maybe even a second promotion and a squad from Fermanagh/Tipp/Wicklow could be playing division two against the Corks, Meaths, Monaghans, even Tyrone if they got relegated from a competitive division one. And fancying there chances of maybe staying up, pulling of an upset.
Instead of 20 point hammering from Dublin and out the next week in the back door and lose on the day to a team in same league division as them. That helps no one within that county, players or supporters enthusiasm to go watch them.
As I said play the knockout tournament as well, straight knockout draw. Then all teams will still have an opportunity to meet one of the bigger teams.
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 04:18:18 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!
Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 04:18:18 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?
Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!
Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.
It was 1-16 to 0-5 at HT. They were well beaten by 14 points after Tyrone made a host of changes. 2-23 to 2-9
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Isn't it?
Quote from: five points on February 18, 2020, 04:16:16 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.
Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?
Why the dramatics? To develop the game in the lesser counties money is needed. Pumping money in Dublin GAA has improved them. If by winning the Tier 2 your team costs were covered for the year would this not be a big carrot for teams and massive boost to development in the county to win it both financially and lifting the profile of the team?
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.
Yes, and even they didn't take it seriously!
Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams won't be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams won't.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:19:23 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:11:21 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.
You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.
Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans won't turn up, TV won't show it, sponsors don't get noticed, newspapers won't get sold, jersies won't sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids don't see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.
That's what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.
Aren't you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Isn't it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.
Yes, and even they didn't take it seriously!
Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams won't be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams won't.
Don't really want to get into a big discussion over it Benny. I f*****g hate the Super 8s and the whole concept. Not gone on backdoor either in a championship so was just stating what I'd like to see. I understand the money men in the GAA would let it happen only over their dead bodies.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
The criteria used to change nearly every year.
I recall Ros losing a TM Cup game to Cyaaaavan in Breffni...possibly 2006.
Quote from: five points on February 18, 2020, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire the following year . if not this would be a real incentive.
I know if Mayo ever played tier 2 they would do their damnedest to win it
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about "Tiers".
The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 01:19:25 AM
Quote from: five points on February 18, 2020, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition
It was only a Div 4 competition for the final 2 years of its 5-year existence.
Full year-by-year record here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Tommy_Murphy_Cup
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:10:45 AM
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about "Tiers".
The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?
Sure why go on living, death is just going win in the end!
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:10:45 AM
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about "Tiers".
The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?
There's still the Ulster and Connaught championships. Progress through the divisions in the league. Club football. Sure why play any sport if you're not the best at it?
Tier 2 probably rears its head because it's something realistic lesser teams can hope to win. I get the resistance to it and the natural inclination to compare it to TM cup. But football has changed a lot since the TM cup. The romance of the championship is not what it was and I think it's beginning to dawn on smaller counties that the gap to the big boys has become so big that even a once off brilliant crop of young lads coming through will not close it much.
We are not bound to the intercounty system.
Quote from: five points on February 19, 2020, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 01:19:25 AM
Quote from: five points on February 18, 2020, 08:07:30 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
.
But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition
It was only a Div 4 competition for the final 2 years of its 5-year existence.
Full year-by-year record here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Tommy_Murphy_Cup
How did you qualify for it. I remember us playing in it once when they tried to expand it. Apart from that my recollection of it was for Division 4 teams or teams who had recently been in Division 4.
And was it not ruling out the back door for some teams that pissed a lot off?
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
How did you qualify for it. I remember us playing in it once when they tried to expand it. Apart from that my recollection of it was for Division 4 teams or teams who had recently been in Division 4.
And was it not ruling out the back door for some teams that pissed a lot off?
I can't remember it all but wikipedia says it was in the early years open to everyone that was beaten in the early rounds of the qualifiers. Clare beat Sligo in the 2004 final and both were strong enough at the time. Only 4 teams entered in 2004. Ruling out the back door for Div 4 definitely killed it in the end and will do the same only worse for the new competitions.
Any ambitious Div 3 team will fancy their chances of progressing in the qualifiers. I know if Cavan get relegated this year, I'll be bitterly disappointed if they're denied that opportunity.
Quote from: rosnarun on February 19, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..
If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 19, 2020, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on February 19, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..
If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?
10-12 regional professional teams
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 01:42:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 19, 2020, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: rosnarun on February 19, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..
If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?
10-12 regional professional teams
Personally I'd have no interest in supporting a team like this. I'm sure there's plenty like me. We've grown up used to the county system and affiliated to the players representing us.
For a proper professional system to work I'd imagine there would also have to be free movement of players so you could have a team of players representing a region not from the region. Maybe you could have a quota that a certain amount have to be local but you'd have to get the percentage right.
Who knows what will happen in the future. It would certainly be a terrific lifestyle for anyone good enough to make a living from it but it would take some work to get to the stage where it would be financially viable. Next generations would have to buy into it big time.
How it would effect the club game would be another gamble. It would certainly alleviate fixtures congestion but funding would be a problem. Ireland is a small country and there is a limit to how big the pie can get. If you pay Paul you rob Peter.
There no reason why cork and galway can not be challengers
so are we talking about the american franchise system
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
And will you have professional hurling teams too?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 19, 2020, 06:49:46 PM
And will you have professional hurling teams too?
I wouldn't argue for or against it. I'd wait and see.
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Quote from: AFM on February 19, 2020, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 19, 2020, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:48:59 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 19, 2020, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.
Your assumptions about no fan base and no stadia are baseless.
When rugby went pro did england move from Twickenham, did ireland move from Lansdowne and so on and so on.
Did fans stop attending? No they've attended like never before since the game went pro.
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.
So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? I'm gonna give him a slap next time I see him.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 20, 2020, 12:11:42 AM
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.
So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? I'm gonna give him a slap next time I see him.
Surely that's through one of those ticketing websites? I remember getting tickets through Dungannon rugby club a few years ago and they certainly were nowhere near that price.
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:54:01 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:48:59 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
Quote from: AFM on February 19, 2020, 08:31:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. There's no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and that's in an era where we see a team that's practically unbeatable.
How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.
Your assumptions about no fan base and no stadia are baseless.
When rugby went pro did england move from Twickenham, did ireland move from Lansdowne and so on and so on.
Did fans stop attending? No they've attended like never before since the game went pro.
I didn't make any assumptions. I pointed out facts that a professional team needs a home stadium and a fan base neither of which obviously exist at the minute. It's a big assumption to think fans will automatically start following completely new "franchises" in large viable numbers country wide and that these franchises will handily get access to stadia currently controlled by county boards or local clubs.
I don't get your reference to Twickenham or Lansdowne or what international rugby has to do with what would be a completely indigenous professional sport unique only to Ireland.
I think his point that a Leitrim on expenses, a semi pro Louth or a fully pro Dublin won't see fans boycotting.
However once money is involved, contracts are involved and we have a transfer system.
But if you have West Ulster, West Dublin, Midlands.......
Quote from: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 11:06:19 AM
But if you have West Ulster, West Dublin, Midlands.......
At least with rugby the provinces were a thing beforehand. And two of them still wobbled financially. Does West Ulster have an identity people will ditch Donegsl for? Because one thing rugby showed was the club game was brutally murdered. Why would the county game not go the same way?
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on February 20, 2020, 11:01:03 AM
I think his point that a Leitrim on expenses, a semi pro Louth or a fully pro Dublin won't see fans boycotting.
However once money is involved, contracts are involved and we have a transfer system.
But he's talking about moving away from the inter county system and having 10-12 new franchises as the new pro competition.
People quite rightly are having a little difficulty trying to grasp where the revenue would come from to make this work.
If Gaelic games were hugely popular sports in UK, France, Italy. If UK could supply approx 20 pro teams, France approx 15, Italy another 2, then comparisons to rugby would be valid and there would be a huge market to get your revenue stream from. But this is not the case.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 20, 2020, 12:11:42 AM
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.
So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? I'm gonna give him a slap next time I see him.
eh? I've been to the 2 previous Italy games and paid no more than £48 for my ticket
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=€30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=€30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.
Why is it a tangent? Someone said the GAA/County boards won't allow pro teams and players in their ground. I showed via the current financial realities that if the GAA and county boards can't fill their grounds they become financially endangered. Not a tangent at all.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=€30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.
Why is it a tangent? Someone said the GAA/County boards won't allow pro teams and players in their ground. I showed via the current financial realities that if the GAA and county boards can't fill their grounds they become financially endangered. Not a tangent at all.
So a few elite players constitute for the majority of the €70m taken in by the GAA and if they walk away all fans would follow them so no more revenue for GAA? Is this what you're saying? Because you still haven't told me how the professional system would work.
Here's a bit of reality for you. Some of our best players walked away from the panel this year. But we still have a full panel. We've won a few games already and we're out again playing Saturday. And people actually pay to see us.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
It actually doesn't matter who you perceive as having the balance of power financially.
It really doesn't.
The GAA, by constitution, will not permit non-GAA games in its grounds (with some leeway for Croker). A breakaway professional organisation would not be part of the GAA.
So it would require a constitutional change with over 67% of votes, before any ground apart from Croke could be used. If this motion is rejected (which if would be, as no county board in its right mind would sanction something that could signal its own demise), it would be off the table for 3 years.
There might be bit of heartache and soul searching within the GAA in that 3 year period. But the GPA's new administrative body, without any semblance of a place to showcase its product, simply wouldn't survive it. No institution in Ireland would bankroll it to take on the GAA when the result is pre-ordained. And the international appeal simply doesn't exist for the GPA to grow wings beyond Ireland.
As far as I'm concerned, bring it on lads. This is not a battle the GPA can win.
When did the GPA set up a breakaway body?
Must have missed that.
Or is it just some lad on this forum musing on what a professional Gaelic football set up might look like.
In the unlikely event of it happening it will be about 2080 when the population of all Ireland might reach 10m.
It would be an official GAA set up.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 04:39:26 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you can't use our grounds. An impasse occurs.
No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as it's uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAA's financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.
You think it's the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
It actually doesn't matter who you perceive as having the balance of power financially.
It really doesn't.
The GAA, by constitution, will not permit non-GAA games in its grounds (with some leeway for Croker). A breakaway professional organisation would not be part of the GAA.
So it would require a constitutional change with over 67% of votes, before any ground apart from Croke could be used. If this motion is rejected (which if would be, as no county board in its right mind would sanction something that could signal its own demise), it would be off the table for 3 years.
There might be bit of heartache and soul searching within the GAA in that 3 year period. But the GPA's new administrative body, without any semblance of a place to showcase its product, simply wouldn't survive it. No institution in Ireland would bankroll it to take on the GAA when the result is pre-ordained. And the international appeal simply doesn't exist for the GPA to grow wings beyond Ireland.
As far as I'm concerned, bring it on lads. This is not a battle the GPA can win.
You are quite correct wobbler. An even if a highly advanced extra terrestrial civilization landed over night and in the morning there were 10-12 brand new stadia available for a new association free of charge, they would still have revenue issues and they would still need a talent pool to draw from.
Talent scouting local club matches would not suffice. There would still need to be a high amateur level for the best amateurs to showcase their talents. So underage IC competitions and IC senior competitions would be the most obvious. County boards would not necessarily go the way of the dodo. And county football would still have a big draw of support. So I still cannot see where the pro game would get the foot fall from.
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
Quote from: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 05:06:12 PM
When did the GPA set up a breakaway body?
Must have missed that.
Or is it just some lad on this forum musing on what a professional Gaelic football set up might look like.
In the unlikely event of it happening it will be about 2080 when the population of all Ireland might reach 10m.
It would be an official GAA set up.
If their demands finally arrive at semi-professionalism (or professionalism) there are only two ways for this demand to be met.
1. Constitutional change in the GAA.
2. A breakaway organisation, which would probably die anyway without constitutional change in the GAA.
Neither is happening.
The GPA has much, much less sway than it thinks.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
What us the GAA "constitution"?
An Treóir Oifigiúil?
60% required to change things in the TO.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.
That is something very, very different to "standing back and watching while their organisation goes to ruin".
By the way I don't know want planet you're from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I don't want to visit that planet. It's far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.
Caprea. You came on here asking people to read your blog and give their opinions. Many have done so to the subject asked, very reasonable replies IMO, but you haven't shown the courtesy to answer one straight simple question put to you many times on how this setup would work or where the revenue would come from. You now seem to have gotten you back up and keep harping on about some €70m figure as if it would go up in a puff of smoke if a few IC players refused to don the boots. I don't believe it's possible to have a reasonable discussion with you. So for that reason I'm out.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 05:42:47 PM
Caprea. You came on here asking people to read your blog and give their opinions. Many have done so to the subject asked, very reasonable replies IMO, but you haven't shown the courtesy to answer one straight simple question put to you many times on how this setup would work or where the revenue would come from. You now seem to have gotten you back up and keep harping on about some €70m figure as if it would go up in a puff of smoke if a few IC players refused to don the boots. I don't believe it's possible to have a reasonable discussion with you. So for that reason I'm out.
Ok, I think you're being a thin skinned. You posted something that I argued against and then When I did that you said I was going on a tangent (for replying to your argument). Just found that a bit baffling..
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:39:54 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.
That is something very, very different to "standing back and watching while their organisation goes to ruin".
By the way I don't know want planet you're from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I don't want to visit that planet. It's far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.
So the GAA's members will not bow to the wishes of the elite players and hence will go into ruin/ become financially insolvent because their 60-70 million revenue from the county game will be gone?
We can't really move on with the argument until you address this.
Your reply above is rhetoric but it doesn't address how the GAA would meet things like their repayments on Pairc Ui caoimh without the money from the county game, the sponsorship of the county game, the TV deals of the county game.
It was actually a tongue in cheek reply but no harm.
And the "rhetoric" Wobbler posted I actually found very funny and on the money.
No worries. But I think the only one having an issue moving on to a proper discussion is you.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:54:01 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:39:54 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.
That is something very, very different to "standing back and watching while their organisation goes to ruin".
By the way I don't know want planet you're from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I don't want to visit that planet. It's far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.
So the GAA's members will not bow to the wishes of the elite players and hence will go into ruin/ become financially insolvent because their 60-70 million revenue from the county game will be gone?
We can't really move on with the argument until you address this.
Your reply above is rhetoric but it doesn't address how the GAA would meet things like their repayments on Pairc Ui caoimh without the money from the county game, the sponsorship of the county game, the TV deals of the county game.
The elite players will be replaced by people who want to play the intercounty game for the love of it. The GAA may loss some revenue due to some stars not being involved in the short term but will continue in the same vain and soon the elite will realise they don't have the power. Most will come back again, some won't, but will be replaced. This is more likely than giving into the elite player demands. And the way I would want it to go.
Oh ffs caprea would you please try to apply some logic and fact instead of continually emptying out the same abysmal and ungrounded fantasy doomsday notion as your stock reply?
It's like talking to a robot who has been programmed not to analyse, but only to repeat.
——
Gate receipts were €36m last year. That's from over 200 games in hurling and football. Take out the all Ireland finals and the football replay, and it's going to be closer to £20m revenue from 200 games. REVENUE not profit. About €100k a game on average REVENUE from a loyal support based upon county lines and birthrights.
If you think that this loss of turnover would be absolutely destructive to the GAA, but at the same time, believe that this level of turnover, less costs, could support upwards on 400 professionals, then put simply you are absolutely f**king nuts.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 06:10:17 PM
Oh ffs caprea would you please try to apply some logic and fact instead of continually emptying out the same abysmal and ungrounded fantasy doomsday notion as your stock reply?
It's like talking to a robot who has been programmed not to analyse, but only to repeat.
——
Gate receipts were €36m last year. That's from over 200 games in hurling and football. Take out the all Ireland finals and the football replay, and it's going to be closer to £20m revenue from 200 games. REVENUE not profit. About €100k a game on average REVENUE from a loyal support based upon county lines and birthrights.
If you think that this loss of turnover would be absolutely destructive to the GAA, but at the same time, believe that this level of turnover, less costs, could support upwards on 400 professionals, then put simply you are absolutely f**king nuts.
You're angry because you know you didn't have a satisfactory answer for the question of would the GAA vote themselves into financially insolvency.
Anyway, costing wise to cover 35 players and 10 staff For 12 teams you'd need to find about 35 million assuming an average salary of 70k a year For players and 40k for coaches. That's fairly generous.
You immediately find 6 million of that easily because the Annual grant of 6 million from GAA to GPA is gone so 29 million for the "talent". Agreed?
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect €29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?
You're really not getting these numbers at all.
I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 06:33:01 PM
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect €29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?
You're really not getting these numbers at all.
I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.
Peter Jones would be scratching his head!!!!
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 06:33:01 PM
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect €29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?
You're really not getting these numbers at all.
I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.
Ok so you agree with my figure of 29 million I take it? I don't get the stadium rental fee you're talking about. Who are they going to be renting off?
But moving on, So Dublin GAA's accounts show last year that they've an income of 5.24 million, https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-gaas-annual-commercial-income-breaks-through-the-2m-barrier-38779148.html . Dublin are a great example of a professional outfit because unlike any other county they do almost no fundraising. Fundraising would not exist in the pro era, so as I say Dublin are a great example for seeing how the game could go pro.
So let's look at their income of 5.24 million and the new system is budgeted for 12 teams that are comparable in size to Dublin. So let's say they each have a income far under 5 million. Say 3 million. 3 million by 12 teams equals 36 million. Now of course Dublin have expenditure as well which we will come to as well.
Are you with me so far?
STADIUM RENTAL 101
Who is going to prepare the pitch?
Who is going to clean and prep the stadium?
Who has operational control before before, during and after the match?
Who does ticketing?
Who does stewarding?
Who does catering?
Who cleans up afterwards?
Who installs and removes the marketing signage for the pro league?
How would insurance work for spectators?
How would medical care work for spectators?
Where does pro-team-Dublin set up its shop to sell gear?
——-
Surely you don't expect any of this to come free?
I'm also at a complete f**king loss, a complete f**king loss as to why you keep talking about potential income as though it's accrued without expenses.
If you're now going to tell me that pro-GAA would be able to secure a better tv rights deal than the current GAA deal (which guarantees TV two of its biggest paydays per year, and half a dozen very good ones), then I'm done with you completely.
I reckon each team would need 10M per year to fund themselves. That's 120M for the pro game. The amateur game would still need revenue and to be run separate from this figure. So you're talking trebling the current GAA market cap.
Then you would need to have 35% for wages and somehow run everything else off the remainder and hope to not go broke. New/rented stadia and training facilities would most certainly have to be factored in to the 65%.
You'd need average attendance of about 25000 for a 22 game season plus TV monies/sponsorship to get to 120M charging punters €30 entry.
This is assuming everything run to absolute maximum efficiency.
So yeah, no worries. Build it. Sure someone might come.
Many look to Rugby as a template for having a professional GAA in this country.
Rugby have 4 professional Clubs. It in turn piggybacks on Clubs from Scotland, Wales and Italy for a domestic League. Rugby have Scotland, Wales, Italy, France and England for a European Cup competition. They also have a International options the six Nations, winter tests and the World Cup every 4 years. With all of these Irish Rugby can generate revenue from fans outside of Ireland. All of GAA revenue has to be generated from within Ireland and we just don't have the population on our own to sustain a professional game.
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 20, 2020, 08:12:12 PM
Many look to Rugby as a template for having a professional GAA in this country.
Rugby have 4 professional Clubs. It in turn piggybacks on Clubs from Scotland, Wales and Italy for a domestic League. Rugby have Scotland, Wales, Italy, France and England for a European Cup competition. They also have a International options the six Nations, winter tests and the World Cup every 4 years. With all of these Irish Rugby can generate revenue from fans outside of Ireland. All of GAA revenue has to be generated from within Ireland and we just don't have the population on our own to sustain a professional game.
Yep. I think the IRFU takes in close to 100M. About 85% funds the pro game. 4 teams plus the international. I'd imagine the 6 Nations brings in a fair chunk.
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
County game wouldn't be on strike. Some players would. There would be other players that would take their place. County games would go on. The "Elite" players might be a bit miffed for a while, and then come running back (Or not and it would continue with the players who do want to play).
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Why does everything have to be the apocalyptic scenario with you?
I'm finding it hard to see under exactly what circumstances could the entire county game be on strike. Management teams and all players, both IC and club players, abandon the county scene. Something pretty untenable would have to have occurred.
But if it's just a few elite players wanting money to play and refusing to tog out and thinking they could hold the entire association to ransom, I think they'd get a dose of reality fairly quickly. They'd just be dropped from the panel and new lads brought in. And feck the much sympathy they'd get.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Why does everything have to be the apocalyptic scenario with you?
I'm finding it hard to see under exactly what circumstances could the entire county game be on strike. Management teams and all players, both IC and club players, abandon the county scene. Something pretty untenable would have to have occurred.
But if it's just a few elite players wanting money to play and refusing to tog out and thinking they could hold the entire association to ransom, I think they'd get a dose of reality fairly quickly. They'd just be dropped from the panel and new lads brought in. And feck the much sympathy they'd get.
Why would management teams go on strike? They get paid in vast majority of cases.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Why does everything have to be the apocalyptic scenario with you?
I'm finding it hard to see under exactly what circumstances could the entire county game be on strike. Management teams and all players, both IC and club players, abandon the county scene. Something pretty untenable would have to have occurred.
But if it's just a few elite players wanting money to play and refusing to tog out and thinking they could hold the entire association to ransom, I think they'd get a dose of reality fairly quickly. They'd just be dropped from the panel and new lads brought in. And feck the much sympathy they'd get.
Why would management teams go on strike? They get paid in vast majority of cases.
Exactly, why would they? But in the scenario you're suggesting they'd have to otherwise the show goes on. Drop said players and pick new ones.
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:57:58 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Why does everything have to be the apocalyptic scenario with you?
I'm finding it hard to see under exactly what circumstances could the entire county game be on strike. Management teams and all players, both IC and club players, abandon the county scene. Something pretty untenable would have to have occurred.
But if it's just a few elite players wanting money to play and refusing to tog out and thinking they could hold the entire association to ransom, I think they'd get a dose of reality fairly quickly. They'd just be dropped from the panel and new lads brought in. And feck the much sympathy they'd get.
Why would management teams go on strike? They get paid in vast majority of cases.
Exactly, why would they? But in the scenario you're suggesting they'd have to otherwise the show goes on. Drop said players and pick new ones.
Ok if you think fans are going to appear to see a good Kerry club player over David Clifford then you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't agree.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 11:03:36 AM
Ok if you think fans are going to appear to see a good Kerry club player over David Clifford then you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't agree.
No player is bigger than the team. If Clifford was injured people will go to watch Kerry. If Clifford goes on strike people will go to watch Kerry. The only difference will be the level of sympathy he gets on the streets.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 11:03:36 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:57:58 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 10:50:24 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:34:22 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most counties' fans don't go to games in numbers anymore can't support a professional game? Ireland is too small?
And the GAA won't open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?
Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
The answer is in the constitution.
Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. I'm sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.
You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heart's content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because it's stadiums are empty?
Members up and down the Country will be at their local club watching club games which are not being held up by a few "elite" players. I would suggest any "elite" GPA funded player not togging out for his club will be getting short shift in his community.
Not togging our for his county you mean?
He would be on his club team every week if the county game was on strike.
Why does everything have to be the apocalyptic scenario with you?
I'm finding it hard to see under exactly what circumstances could the entire county game be on strike. Management teams and all players, both IC and club players, abandon the county scene. Something pretty untenable would have to have occurred.
But if it's just a few elite players wanting money to play and refusing to tog out and thinking they could hold the entire association to ransom, I think they'd get a dose of reality fairly quickly. They'd just be dropped from the panel and new lads brought in. And feck the much sympathy they'd get.
Why would management teams go on strike? They get paid in vast majority of cases.
Exactly, why would they? But in the scenario you're suggesting they'd have to otherwise the show goes on. Drop said players and pick new ones.
Ok if you think fans are going to appear to see a good Kerry club player over David Clifford then you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't agree.
There might be a bit of an impact in viewing number but fairly insignificant. So the GAA might lose a small bit of revenue (I'd actually debate that the impact would be negligible). You think they would pick making a huge structural change that would change the ethos of the organisation than taking a potential tiny hit on revenue? I'm sorry but it's crazy to think that would be the case.
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 11:03:36 AM
Ok if you think fans are going to appear to see a good Kerry club player over David Clifford then you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't agree.
I'm sure Kerry people attended games before Clifford came on the scene.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but there has to be a bit of facts behind them.
The way you're backing up yours are fairly fanciful sometimes if you don't mind me saying and how you're coming up with your numbers are just pie in the sky. You make no allowances of where money will come for administration, logistics or capital after you've paid these elite.
You actually added in grant money from the GAA for pro game revenue. Come on. And you allowed 40K for backroom as a budget and called yourself generous. After employers tax you're talking 35K. I'd love to see the job advertisement for the team doctor or physio. Highly qualified, minimum 5 years experience in similar field, fully registered, possess indemnity insurance, be very flexible, give up weekends, no medical or dental provided. No time wasters please. What would be the deal sealer? Free leftover ham sandwiches after the team have finished their lunch?
Quote from: Look-Up! on February 21, 2020, 12:05:04 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 11:03:36 AM
Ok if you think fans are going to appear to see a good Kerry club player over David Clifford then you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't agree.
I'm sure Kerry people attended games before Clifford came on the scene.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but there has to be a bit of facts behind them.
The way you're backing up yours are fairly fanciful sometimes if you don't mind me saying and how you're coming up with your numbers are just pie in the sky. You make no allowances of where money will come for administration, logistics or capital after you've paid these elite.
You actually added in grant money from the GAA for pro game revenue. Come on. And you allowed 40K for backroom as a budget and called yourself generous. After employers tax you're talking 35K. I'd love to see the job advertisement for the team doctor or physio. Highly qualified, minimum 5 years experience in similar field, fully registered, possess indemnity insurance, be very flexible, give up weekends, no medical or dental provided. No time wasters please. What would be the deal sealer? Free leftover ham sandwiches after the team have finished their lunch?
Clifford plus the other 25 players he plays with.
I costed the fee for managers to waterboys at 40,000 a year with 10 in each of the 12 management structure. I costed the average salary of a player to be an extremely generous 70000 a player for 35 players in 12 teams .
The only way these figures might be termed fanciful is that they are extremely generous as starting salaries.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
Just as a point, strikes are commonly seen in GAA, cork hurlers and footballers, Galway hurlers, mayo footballers, limerick Hurlers, possibly Waterford hurlers aswell all refused to play on account of managers they didn't like, how managers were appointed, welfare conditions.
Strikes are nothing new.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
I dont believe many from the grassroots would support a players strike for pay.
How many volunteers give monster hours each week without having their hand out?
Many former & most current players would no doubt get plenty of airtime justifying it which would sway a few but if the Tyrone players joined I would be totally against it and as someone said I would make a point of supporting those who want to play for the county even more.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Quote from: Taylor on February 21, 2020, 01:02:17 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
How many volunteers give monster hours each week without having their hand out?
Soccer and boxing also has volunteers. Pro sports but still with volunteers at youth and amateur level.
People volunteer to benefit and improve their community and because it is their interest.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
Yeah we obviously don't agree on that. No way of knowing I suppose.
The team of hurlers Cork Co Board fielded during their players' got a paltry following.
Mind you there were a lot of issues involved there.
If Roscommons best 30 players withdrew their services we wouldn't have to worry about All Ireland or Connacht Finals.
I wonder would any players even attempt to break their strike?
I would expect very few spectators to attend any games.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
Yeah we obviously don't agree on that. No way of knowing I suppose.
How much money do the GPA receive each year?
Quote from: Taylor on February 21, 2020, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
Yeah we obviously don't agree on that. No way of knowing I suppose.
How much money do the GPA receive each year?
6.4 million a year between 2016-2019. No deal in place for this year. Being renegotiated
Quote from: Rossfan on February 21, 2020, 01:52:09 PM
The team of hurlers Cork Co Board fielded during their players' got a paltry following.
Mind you there were a lot of issues involved there.
If Roscommons best 30 players withdrew their services we wouldn't have to worry about All Ireland or Connacht Finals.
I wonder would any players even attempt to break their strike?
I would expect very few spectators to attend any games.
Did they? I though in the 07-08 strike there wasn't any games missed as it was over the winter and then they postponed one of the league (Or maybe my memory is playing up). Do you have the figures. How many games were played in 2009 without the players?
I'll be honest can't remember much of the 2002 one with regards to the games played.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 02:30:20 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 21, 2020, 01:57:32 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
Yeah we obviously don't agree on that. No way of knowing I suppose.
How much money do the GPA receive each year?
6.4 million a year between 2016-2019. No deal in place for this year. Being renegotiated
IF there was a drop in ticket sales it wouldn't make up for it then.
No idea where we go from here but if 'elite players went on strike, firstly I would be disgusted and secondly I would still support my county regardless of who was playing.
The key to all this I feel would be the media. If they give a voice to the striking players then That would give a swell to public opinion. Take their voice away and they wouldn't be long coming back.
Imagine missing out on all those perks they currently get?
Trueblue I'm possibly thinking of the earlier one alright .
They played a League game and around 1200 turned up.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
And in my opinion you are overestimating their power. I know for a large swathe if the GAA membership it is club first. County games are grand for a few days out in the summer but if your County is beat, great let's get on with the real football.
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 07:34:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
And in my opinion you are overestimating their power. I know for a large swathe if the GAA membership it is club first. County games are grand for a few days out in the summer but if your County is beat, great let's get on with the real football.
Sure I don't follow the county game at all. Waste of time. I'm pure club. Doesn't mean the county game doesn't generate 70 million a year.
But Caprea, the county game doesn't generate €70m. Nothing close to it.
There were €36.1m ticket sales and this was an exceptionally good year as there was an AI final replay.
That's sales. That revenue. It's not profit.
——
For reference, over €10m was generated from concerts, from roughly 5% the number of events, as there was GAA matches.
——
What is it makes you believe that if you keep saying €70m that this will be the figure that people believe? Stop being a twit.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 21, 2020, 09:09:08 PM
But Caprea, the county game doesn't generate €70m. Nothing close to it.
There were €36.1m ticket sales and this was an exceptionally good year as there was an AI final replay.
That's sales. That revenue. It's not profit.
——
For reference, over €10m was generated from concerts, from roughly 5% the number of events, as there was GAA matches.
——
What is it makes you believe that if you keep saying €70m that this will be the figure that people believe? Stop being a twit.
Must have never being TV Cameras at the matches you were at, no sponsorship either.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 08:58:51 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 07:34:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
And in my opinion you are overestimating their power. I know for a large swathe if the GAA membership it is club first. County games are grand for a few days out in the summer but if your County is beat, great let's get on with the real football.
Sure I don't follow the county game at all. Waste of time. I'm pure club. Doesn't mean the county game doesn't generate 70 million a year.
So why the obsession with IC finances and ways to break the current IC structure and its attendant loyalties.
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 10:39:18 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 08:58:51 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2020, 07:34:15 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 01:05:37 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:39:07 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 21, 2020, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
So people will pay 100 euro for an all Ireland final ticket between Kerry and Dublin Junior teams?
It will be the Kerry and Dublin senior teams. With the best available talent. There's always some players who make themselves unavailable. I don't know a single person who would stop attending a game because certain players wasn't playing. If by your view all the players for all the teams decided to strike (Which would never happen), and the GAA replaced the players with the best available, the AI final between Dublin and Kerry would still sell out. I have no doubt of that. And it would still be Sam Maguire they win, and the supporters would still celebrate the win as much as any.
So fans will pay 100 euro to see Kerry and Dublin's current junior teams play for Sam maguire in a packed Croker?
I know if Tyrone were in the AI final, I would pay £100 to see them. I know most in my circles would as well. If that team was the best of what was available then absolutely. I don't believe a players strike for pay would have support in the wider GAA community. I actually think if this was to happen many within the GAA community would make a point of supporting the players who stepped up to replace them.
So my answer is yes fans would pay it.
Do you think a players strike for pay would have support in the wider community?
Ok thanks. I don't agree. We've seen what happens when teams strike and how supporter interest is affected and how striking players always won the fight and county boards had to accede to their demands.
No I don't think striking players would have support in the community. It would divide opinion but ultimately they wouldn't have huge support for sure. Do I think it matters? Yes. Do I think it matters a lot? No I don't.
The biggest problems I see with what I propose is South Dublin doesn't have a stadium, GPO's would be laid off and replaced by pro players in their off season. That will be painful and I don't have an easy answer to it.
Yeah this is the bit I can't accept. It would come down to a decision by the GAA to side with 800 odd players or side with the majority of the organisation. I think they know where their bread is buttered and I don't think it would be the 800 odd players. The reality is if they replace these 800 players, then new players will step up and shine. There'll be new elite players who will know what will happens if they decide to strike and therefore won't take that option. And the GAA will return to where it was. It's a misconception that the players have the power (In my eyes anyway).
I think you underestimate the power of elite players and the idea they can be easily replaced with inferior players and people will still pay ticket prices in anywhere the same numbers is not something I'd be onboard with.
And in my opinion you are overestimating their power. I know for a large swathe if the GAA membership it is club first. County games are grand for a few days out in the summer but if your County is beat, great let's get on with the real football.
Sure I don't follow the county game at all. Waste of time. I'm pure club. Doesn't mean the county game doesn't generate 70 million a year.
So why the obsession with IC finances and ways to break the current IC structure and its attendant loyalties.
The reason is stated in the topic title.
For now let's go on with the intercounty system but if Dublin with a little bit of Kerry dominate for the next decade then it's time to rethink the structure drastically.
Quote from: caprea on February 21, 2020, 10:11:00 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on February 21, 2020, 09:09:08 PM
But Caprea, the county game doesn't generate €70m. Nothing close to it.
There were €36.1m ticket sales and this was an exceptionally good year as there was an AI final replay.
That's sales. That revenue. It's not profit.
——
For reference, over €10m was generated from concerts, from roughly 5% the number of events, as there was GAA matches.
——
What is it makes you believe that if you keep saying €70m that this will be the figure that people believe? Stop being a twit.
Must have never being TV Cameras at the matches you were at, no sponsorship either.
In addition the 36.1 million in Gate receipts is wrong. It's 49 million for championship games. I don't think that includes league receipts either so it's higher again.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0211/1114542-gaa-announce-record-revenue-of-73-9-million-for-2019/
That's my source. Looking forward to seeing yours.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 22, 2020, 10:51:48 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0211/1114542-gaa-announce-record-revenue-of-73-9-million-for-2019/
That's my source. Looking forward to seeing yours.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/galway-top-of-the-turnstiles-as-gaa-take-in-60m-in-2019-38976578.html
A figure of €36.1m, spurred by a ticket price increase, an All-Ireland football final replay and bigger average attendances at centrally organised games, was recorded at last week's presentation of the annual report to Congress.
But on top of that there was a further €13.3m gathered through the four provincial championships, bringing the turnstile value of inter-county games to €49.4m. Munster and Leinster both recorded gates in excess of €5m, benefiting off the back of the second year of the hurling championship's new round-robin format.
We are still playing Leinster championship games even though Dublin are unbeatable in it? What's the point in a competition where we already know the outcome, not just for this year but for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time. The gap is not closing, it's widening.
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
We are still playing Leinster championship games even though Dublin are unbeatable in it? What's the point in a competition where we already know the outcome, not just for this year but for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time. The gap is not closing, it's widening.
Are you talking about Leinster or the All Ireland championships?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 09:05:37 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
We are still playing Leinster championship games even though Dublin are unbeatable in it? What's the point in a competition where we already know the outcome, not just for this year but for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time. The gap is not closing, it's widening.
Are you talking about Leinster or the All Ireland championships?
Leinster.
In terms of all Ireland's. I think we'll see Dublin win most of the next ten and kerry win a few. So kerry and Dublin.. the most historically successful counties ..go forward to win more. So what's the point really. We know they were the best already. If that never changes, hasn't the intercounty system run its course so that more than a handful of counties have a real interest in an all Ireland.
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 09:05:37 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
We are still playing Leinster championship games even though Dublin are unbeatable in it? What's the point in a competition where we already know the outcome, not just for this year but for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time. The gap is not closing, it's widening.
Are you talking about Leinster or the All Ireland championships?
Leinster.
In terms of all Ireland's. I think we'll see Dublin win most of the next ten and kerry win a few. So kerry and Dublin.. the most historically successful counties ..go forward to win more. So what's the point really. We know they were the best already. If that never changes, hasn't the intercounty system run its course so that more than a handful of counties have a real interest in an all Ireland.
I doubt we'll even see that.
The AI championship is finished. Even the most successful team needs rivals to make it in some way interesting.
I think a lot of people had some hope this year, with a knockout format, heavy pitches, no second chances. Dublin with new manager, a couple of opt outs, maybe they could be caught cold. Absolutely no chance. If they can't be caught in this situation, they'll not be caught in a CL style format, usual format or a A/B championship format.
When Dublin stroll to 6 in a row in December, any air that was left in the championship bag will be long gone.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 10:58:09 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 09:05:37 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
When Dublin stroll to 6 in a row in December, any air that was left in the championship bag will be long gone.
Nah, there's a few years of pointlessness left. But we are in the dying throes of the intercounty system. It just doesn't work as an interesting structure anymore.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 10:58:09 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 09:32:36 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 22, 2020, 09:05:37 AM
Quote from: caprea on November 22, 2020, 01:56:41 AM
We are still playing Leinster championship games even though Dublin are unbeatable in it? What's the point in a competition where we already know the outcome, not just for this year but for the foreseeable future, maybe for all time. The gap is not closing, it's widening.
Are you talking about Leinster or the All Ireland championships?
Leinster.
In terms of all Ireland's. I think we'll see Dublin win most of the next ten and kerry win a few. So kerry and Dublin.. the most historically successful counties ..go forward to win more. So what's the point really. We know they were the best already. If that never changes, hasn't the intercounty system run its course so that more than a handful of counties have a real interest in an all Ireland.
I doubt we'll even see that.
The AI championship is finished. Even the most successful team needs rivals to make it in some way interesting.
I think a lot of people had some hope this year, with a knockout format, heavy pitches, no second chances. Dublin with new manager, a couple of opt outs, maybe they could be caught cold. Absolutely no chance. If they can't be caught in this situation, they'll not be caught in a CL style format, usual format or a A/B championship format.
When Dublin stroll to 6 in a row in December, any air that was left in the championship bag will be long gone.
No problem if you play all your games in CP
Munster SFC - a 2 County competition. Only issue is which will come first Kerry's 100th or Cork's 50th.
Connacht SFC - 3 Counties competitive now.
Ulster SFC - 3 Counties have shared the last 12 with Tyrone and Donegal dominating.
Leinster- 1 County has won 15 of the last 16.
All Ireland SFC -1 County has won 7 of the last 9 and looking like 8 out of 10.
All getting a bit pointless.
if they bring back super 8s dublin could be beat twice and still win all ireland.
The super eights should go. I don't think they add much at all and tbh are an exercise in money making. This year has shown us- knockout is the way to go.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 22, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
Munster SFC - a 2 County competition. Only issue is which will come first Kerry's 100th or Cork's 50th.
Connacht SFC - 3 Counties competitive now.
Ulster SFC - 3 Counties have shared the last 12 with Tyrone and Donegal dominating.
Leinster- 1 County has won 15 of the last 16.
All Ireland SFC -1 County has won 7 of the last 9 and looking like 8 out of 10.
All getting a bit pointless.
I'd say the Tipp lad's disagree with you. Also the Ulster championship has been absolutely unreal and competitive for years.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 22, 2020, 04:58:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 22, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
Munster SFC - a 2 County competition. Only issue is which will come first Kerry's 100th or Cork's 50th.
Connacht SFC - 3 Counties competitive now.
Ulster SFC - 3 Counties have shared the last 12 with Tyrone and Donegal dominating.
Leinster- 1 County has won 15 of the last 16.
All Ireland SFC -1 County has won 7 of the last 9 and looking like 8 out of 10.
All getting a bit pointless.
I'd say the Tipp lad's disagree with you. Also the Ulster championship has been absolutely unreal and competitive for years.
They said during commentary yesterday that Donegal have been in 9 of the last 10 finals, that's some going
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
Regional league to have relegation and the distance to travel seems to be forgotten about in relegation play offs seems a bit daft. Would make more sense just to play the normal 7 game league without finals
it will be very dissapointing if they keep the super 8s why do they need basically a league stage at that stage of competition and it also gives the bigger teams even more room for complacency
Quote from: Eire90 on November 27, 2020, 01:50:25 PM
it will be very dissapointing if they keep the super 8s why do they need basically a league stage at that stage of competition and it also gives the bigger teams even more room for complacency
Did you read the above article? It says no Super 8s for 2021. The league is the best format the GAA have and should not be chopping and changing something that isn't broke.
two double headers of quarter finals over the one weekend would be better and more of spectacle than the super 8s also 4 provincial should be done as two tv double headers on a saturday and sunday on the same weekend.
2pm and 5pm throw ins on the saturday 1pm and 4pm on the sunday
The all ireland should move to a saturday aswell permanently 5pm throw in you have to think of the fans that will be celebrating that have to work on a monday better to give them a recovery day.
Quote from: Eire90 on November 27, 2020, 02:15:36 PM
The all ireland should move to a saturday aswell permanently 5pm throw in you have to think of the fans that will be celebrating that have to work on a monday better to give them a recovery day.
Celebrating fans working on the Monday? A lot of them wouldn't even make it in the following Monday!
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
A u-turn on 2021 season?
From the examiner
GAA weigh up staging club before inter-county season in 2021
Central Council discusses 'flipping' the seasons in 2021, with club played first
THE GAA won't make a decision on the 2021 calendar until next month as they weigh up the possibility of commencing the club season before county.
It had been expected the county period would commence in late February with the Allianz Leagues based on split football divisions and the hurling competition remaining the same but for reduced knockout stages.
The Championship, based on the qualifier system, would then start in late April before finishing in July before the county club championships take place in late summer and earlier autumn.
However, GAA leaders may now recommend the exclusive club window precede county as there are doubts about meaningful crowds returning to games in the first half of 2021.
With the organisation making a variety of cuts and requiring a Government grant to stage the Championships, the issue of gate receipts is a considerable factor for the GAA. Delaying the inter-county season until such time as supporters can go to games in sizeable numbers may be required.
The Club Players Association have already backed the proposal to organise the county period before the club, although a number of prominent GAA figures such as Tipperary senior hurling manager Liam Sheedy have supported club going first.
Central Council today heard the latest on discussions between the GAA and GPA. It is expected that the fundraising dinners held by the official inter-county players' body in the US will now be a joint effort between the organisations with a portion of the money raised to be given to local GAA bodies.
Although there were some claims from counties that the changes to the under-age grades require a further vote, Croke Park officials that the uneven grades - U13, U15, U17 - are the primary levels now.
The GAA hopes to receive more information about when they can stage the outstanding U20 football final, the U20 hurling championship and both minor championships from the Government earlier next week.
I would sincerely hope that the top brass are attuned to their members and realise that 98% of players shouldn't be asked to give up summer football just to swell central coffers.
Quote from: Blowitupref on November 28, 2020, 06:12:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
A u-turn on 2021 season?
From the examiner
GAA weigh up staging club before inter-county season in 2021
Central Council discusses 'flipping' the seasons in 2021, with club played first
THE GAA won't make a decision on the 2021 calendar until next month as they weigh up the possibility of commencing the club season before county.
It had been expected the county period would commence in late February with the Allianz Leagues based on split football divisions and the hurling competition remaining the same but for reduced knockout stages.
The Championship, based on the qualifier system, would then start in late April before finishing in July before the county club championships take place in late summer and earlier autumn.
However, GAA leaders may now recommend the exclusive club window precede county as there are doubts about meaningful crowds returning to games in the first half of 2021.
With the organisation making a variety of cuts and requiring a Government grant to stage the Championships, the issue of gate receipts is a considerable factor for the GAA. Delaying the inter-county season until such time as supporters can go to games in sizeable numbers may be required.
The Club Players Association have already backed the proposal to organise the county period before the club, although a number of prominent GAA figures such as Tipperary senior hurling manager Liam Sheedy have supported club going first.
Central Council today heard the latest on discussions between the GAA and GPA. It is expected that the fundraising dinners held by the official inter-county players' body in the US will now be a joint effort between the organisations with a portion of the money raised to be given to local GAA bodies.
Although there were some claims from counties that the changes to the under-age grades require a further vote, Croke Park officials that the uneven grades - U13, U15, U17 - are the primary levels now.
The GAA hopes to receive more information about when they can stage the outstanding U20 football final, the U20 hurling championship and both minor championships from the Government earlier next week.
It makes a lot more sense to have the club championships played off before the inter-county championships than they other way around
That way the club championships i) become genuinely relevant as regards getting an inter-county squad place ii) they get played in better weather and longer evenings and iii) the influence of county managers and training camps could be cut back on - the club championships double as pre-season training for inter-county players
Play club championships from the end of March to July - with the All-Ireland club finals in early July
Inter-county championships begin in mid-July and go through to the end of October or early November
And those lads whose Club are out of Championships in April?
How much interest will they have in an oul League that no one cares about or will their season be over?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 28, 2020, 08:35:04 PM
And those lads whose Club are out of Championships in April?
How much interest will they have in an oul League that no one cares about or will their season be over?
Plenty of lads are already effectively out by April, in Dublin you play two round robin games in April with a third scheduled for late September - which is a ridiculous situation
Lose your first two and you're likely out anyway
We keep hearing that games are what the club player wants
But perhaps that is not the case?
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 08:27:26 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on November 28, 2020, 06:12:38 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
A u-turn on 2021 season?
From the examiner
GAA weigh up staging club before inter-county season in 2021
Central Council discusses 'flipping' the seasons in 2021, with club played first
THE GAA won't make a decision on the 2021 calendar until next month as they weigh up the possibility of commencing the club season before county.
It had been expected the county period would commence in late February with the Allianz Leagues based on split football divisions and the hurling competition remaining the same but for reduced knockout stages.
The Championship, based on the qualifier system, would then start in late April before finishing in July before the county club championships take place in late summer and earlier autumn.
However, GAA leaders may now recommend the exclusive club window precede county as there are doubts about meaningful crowds returning to games in the first half of 2021.
With the organisation making a variety of cuts and requiring a Government grant to stage the Championships, the issue of gate receipts is a considerable factor for the GAA. Delaying the inter-county season until such time as supporters can go to games in sizeable numbers may be required.
The Club Players Association have already backed the proposal to organise the county period before the club, although a number of prominent GAA figures such as Tipperary senior hurling manager Liam Sheedy have supported club going first.
Central Council today heard the latest on discussions between the GAA and GPA. It is expected that the fundraising dinners held by the official inter-county players' body in the US will now be a joint effort between the organisations with a portion of the money raised to be given to local GAA bodies.
Although there were some claims from counties that the changes to the under-age grades require a further vote, Croke Park officials that the uneven grades - U13, U15, U17 - are the primary levels now.
The GAA hopes to receive more information about when they can stage the outstanding U20 football final, the U20 hurling championship and both minor championships from the Government earlier next week.
It makes a lot more sense to have the club championships played off before the inter-county championships than they other way around
That way the club championships i) become genuinely relevant as regards getting an inter-county squad place ii) they get played in better weather and longer evenings and iii) the influence of county managers and training camps could be cut back on - the club championships double as pre-season training for inter-county players
Play club championships from the end of March to July - with the All-Ireland club finals in early July
Inter-county championships begin in mid-July and go through to the end of October or early November
Going by above link the county club championships could be played February to April which is unlikely to be played in better weather and longer evenings. Will the provincial and All Ireland club series get the go ahead in 2021?
Play the NFL/NHL in February/March
On a hypothetical 2021 calendar the NFL final would be March 28th
Then start the club championships
Taking Dublin as an example:
Three round robin club football games on April 4th, April 18th and May 2nd
Three round robin club hurling games on April 11th, April 25th and May 9th
Run off the knockout stages so the county finals are finished by the June Bank Holiday Weekend - June 6th
Provincial club championships to be finished by the weekend of July 4th
All-Ireland club finals on July 18th
Inter-county championships start the weekend of July 31st/August 1st
All-Ireland finals by the last weekend in October/first weekend in November
Or ii) finish the county championships by the June bank holiday weekend as above, then start the inter-county championships on the weekend of June 21st, with the finals reverting to their traditional September dates
Provincial club championships follow on from the first weekend in October with the finals in November
Sid, listen up please.
Under your "plan", somewhere in the region of 3,000 ** club championship matches would take place in March and April. And as of course nobody could expect a team to play championship without first having some league (or at least friendly matches) in preparation, at least the same number of games before then.
Hopefully right about now it's dawning on you that the majority of GAA venues in Ireland either don't have suitable floodlighting, or spectator facilities (or both) to host championship matches. So your plan would require the more suitable grounds playing host to up to a dozen games a week. In wet, cold March and April, with water tables still high, there is no surface in Ireland can take that sort of punishment.
Please don't do your usual thing now and ignore what I'm saying. No matter how many good reasons you can generate for the county championship to come second, it creates a genuine and unavoidable logistical mountain that cannot be climbed.
——-
** there's some 2200 clubs in Ireland. If every county adopted a simple knockout championship, that means at least 1100 round 1 fixtures. But then of course there are dual clubs. Let's round it up 1,500 first round fixtures. But then let's also catch ourselves on and accept that most counties won't revert to a straight knockout, so a couple of early rounds will be required. Hence some 3000-odd matches. That's just for the early rounds.
By way of comparison, you could fit all of the county hurling championships and the county football championship into a box of 200 fixtures. With plenty of room to spare.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 08:58:46 PM
Sid, listen up please.
Under your "plan", somewhere in the region of 3,000 ** club championship matches would take place in March and April. And as of course nobody could expect a team to play championship without first having some league (or at least friendly matches) in preparation, at least the same number of games before then.
Hopefully right about now it's dawning on you that the majority of GAA venues in Ireland either don't have suitable floodlighting, or spectator facilities (or both) to host championship matches. So your plan would require the more suitable grounds playing host to up to a dozen games a week. In wet, cold March and April, with water tables still high, there is no surface in Ireland can take that sort of punishment.
Please don't do your usual thing now and ignore what I'm saying. No matter how many good reasons you can generate for the county championship to come second, it creates a genuine and unavoidable logistical mountain that cannot be climbed.
——-
** there's some 2200 clubs in Ireland. If every county adopted a simple knockout championship, that means at least 1100 round 1 fixtures. But then of course there are dual clubs. Let's round it up 1,500 first round fixtures. But then let's also catch ourselves on and accept that most counties won't revert to a straight knockout, so a couple of early rounds will be required. Hence some 3000-odd matches. That's just for the early rounds.
By way of comparison, you could fit all of the county hurling championships and the county football championship into a box of 200 fixtures. With plenty of room to spare.
It's pretty simple
You can easily hold club championships in April and May - and indeed club championship fixtures have been held in April throughout the country over the last few years
This is not some impossible logistical operation
It's basic fixture planning, the concept of which seems to be beyond some people
You're not listening.
Stop being obtuse.
There is no logistical skill or understanding involved in rhyming off a perfect scenario. That's fiction, not logistics. Logistics is purely and simply the science of ensuring successful delivery, and after that, as efficiently as possible. Not the other way around.
The problem with your fictitious scenario is that if county sides are entitled to their players by the middle of July, then club championships absolutely have to be concluded in full before then.
Which means that when a week is washed out in April, it causes problems. When a fortnight is wiped out out by the weather, it leaves nowhere to go.
I'm sure you'll don your fantasy goggles again and find one more hole to throw these into. Except you have already got the All Ireland club champions out 7 weekends in a row in June and July. That's right, you've got club footballers traipsing their county, then their province, then their country, for 7 championship weekends in a row.
——
It's becoming clear that you don't bother much with the club game. You clearly can't identify with it. That's for sure.
.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 09:26:57 PM
You're not listening.
Stop being obtuse.
There is no logistical skill or understanding involved in rhyming off a perfect scenario. That's fiction, not logistics. Logistics is purely and simply the science of ensuring successful delivery, and after that, as efficiently as possible. Not the other way around.
The problem with your fictitious scenario is that if county sides are entitled to their players by the middle of July, then club championships absolutely have to be concluded in full before then.
Which means that when a week is washed out in April, it causes problems. When a fortnight is wiped out out by the weather, it leaves nowhere to go.
I'm sure you'll don your fantasy goggles again and find one more hole to throw these into. Except you have already got the All Ireland club champions out 7 weekends in a row in June and July. That's right, you've got club footballers traipsing their county, then their province, then their country, for 7 championship weekends in a row.
——
It's becoming clear that you don't bother much with the club game. You clearly can't identify with it. That's for sure.
.
Much easier to put your fingers in your ears and whistle away to yourself than engage in some thinking
The problem with GAA fixture making has always been and always will be NIMBYism
As exemplified by yourself here
What I really loved was the way you straw manned the idea that I wasn't taking account of dual clubs when I specifically did that in my post
That's an example of not reading
Another lovely straw man is the idea that I can't identify with the club game, despite the fact that my idea is to give the club game a much higher profile, with county finals being played in high summer
I think you've identified how part of the problem with the club game is that often the very people who most claim to speak for it are very often the very people who are holding it back
The CPA was an example of that and it certainly looks like you are too
The Sid playbook on full show already.
Step 1: refer to Nimbyism, because it makes you look clever.
Step 2: refute the argument as straw man, for every discussion point in every forum is in fact a straw man argument when looked at in isolation. So you look clever.
Step 3: completely and utterly ignore the arguments put forward by the most recent post, and instead focus on anything that can be challenged in previous posts. Context isn't needed now. You've already thrown the straw man on the table, it can't be thrown back at you.
Step 4: ah feck you can't go there. it's currently breaking your heart that you can't find a way to bring right wing politics into this.
——
You aren't qualified to discuss the club game Sid. You're showing this at every step. Nobody involved in it has an underlying desire for the club game to have a higher profile. We just want to play and watch competitive football.
Let's put thousands of club championship games on in April.
What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong?
Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:
April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final
Inter-county championships begin July 11th
All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd
Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th
Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me
Quote from: Captain Obvious on November 27, 2020, 01:46:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2020, 09:53:46 AM
As good a spot as any to post this
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1127/1180822-gaa-calendar-2021/
Regional league to have relegation and the distance to travel seems to be forgotten about in relegation play offs seems a bit daft. Would make more sense just to play the normal 7 game league without finals
Glad to see the end of the super 8s, just another tool to help the big teams and clearly has neen rejected by fans. This regional league is a bit daft though. Distance to travel to matches I have never heard of as a big complaint and as supporter I've quite enjoyed long trips and an overnighter. Could they just play the 7 games and get rid of the final, winner is team on top. What happens if a division ends up with 6 ulster teams and 2 munster?
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 09:56:32 PM
The Sid playbook on full show already.
Step 1: refer to Nimbyism, because it makes you look clever.
Step 2: refute the argument as straw man, for every discussion point in every forum is in fact a straw man argument when looked at in isolation. So you look clever.
Step 3: completely and utterly ignore the arguments put forward by the most recent post, and instead focus on anything that can be challenged in previous posts. Context isn't needed now. You've already thrown the straw man on the table, it can't be thrown back at you.
Step 4: ah feck you can't go there. it's currently breaking your heart that you can't find a way to bring right wing politics into this.
——
You aren't qualified to discuss the club game Sid. You're showing this at every step. Nobody involved in it has an underlying desire for the club game to have a higher profile. We just want to play and watch competitive football.
The only reason I refer to NIMBYism and straw manning is because your posts are full of them
If you didn't engage in them, I wouldn't refer to them ;)
Given that this is a discussion forum, you'd be much better off actually trying to discuss things
Rather than flying off the handle and go all "over my dead body" when somebody does put forward a very reasonable plan
Or, even better, put forward your own plan, or actually discuss other people's very reasonable plans on their merits
The line you're currently taking doesn't do you, or discussion, any favours at all, it just makes you look small minded
Whether that's the intention or not, I have no idea
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:08:36 PM
Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:
April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final
Inter-county championships begin July 11th
All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd
Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th
Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me
1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.
2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?
But most of all this.
Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.
This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 10:23:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:08:36 PM
Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:
April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final
Inter-county championships begin July 11th
All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd
Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th
Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me
1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.
2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?
But most of all this.
Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.
This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.
You might want to check when the sun sets in mid-April
April 11th sunset in Dublin: 8:19pm
They even play cricket in Ireland in April
But apparently now, it's impossible to play GAA
And it's apparently impossible to re-arrange any fixtures in a system which has a two week gap between fixtures, and plenty of adequate midweek daylight
Lord knows how they cope with the NFL and NHL which is played on a week to week basis in January, February and March
Two and a half months in spring and high summer is apparently not enough to complete club championships
The mind boggles
The right plan isn't complicated Sid. It's pretty much what was mooted a few weeks ago by the GAA.
1. Play county championship immediately after national league. This is the county season. It would run from January to early June.
2. Do not unnecessarily prolong the county championship. This isn't so much about getting rid of super 8s or back doors. And definitely not about getting rid of rest weeks. But there's no reason on this earth, why all 16 provincial quarter finals wouldn't take place on same weekend.
3. Start club leagues as early as is practical. But county panellists (maximum 32) are ineligible for club league football until their county has exited the championship, unless released temporarily by county mgt.
4. Club championships can start whenever a county board wants and can take any format they like. But provincial club championships start in first week of September, and all Ireland club championships start mid October, regardless of whether clubs have progressed.
5. For the welfare of our elite players, who've now possibly been on the go for 10 months within a break, November is a complete compulsory shutdown at adult levels. Clubs and counties have AGMs. Everything resets. Then in December we start planning / training for the coming season.
4.
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:34:02 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 10:23:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:08:36 PM
Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:
April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final
Inter-county championships begin July 11th
All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd
Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th
Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me
1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.
2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?
But most of all this.
Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.
This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.
You might want to check when the sun sets in mid-April
April 11th sunset in Dublin: 8:19pm
They even play cricket in Ireland in April
But apparently now, it's impossible to play GAA
And it's apparently impossible to re-arrange any fixtures in a system which has a two week gap between fixtures, and plenty of adequate midweek daylight
Lord knows how they cope with the NFL and NHL which is played on a week to week basis in January, February and March
Two and a half months in spring and high summer is apparently not enough to complete club championships
The mind boggles
Your mind only boggles because it doesn't have real world experience of solving problems.
1. Until late-April in Ireland, you cannot start (non-floodlit) GAA matches any later than 6.45pm. Every half serious match takes 85 minutes (2 x 5 mins of injury time, 15 minutes of half time).
6.45pm throw-ins for some championship matches are feasible. Probably less so if you have to travel half the length of a county at rush hour.
2. There might be a two week gap. But if all the better venues in a county are needed for hurling championship the following weekend, good luck squeezing that wiped out football series in.
3. There's a maximum of 32 NFL and NHL games on any given weekend, and as they largely go on alternate weekends, a full series wipeout only needs 16-20 venues the following weekend to fulfil that series. Most counties will have 1-2 highly playable year-round venues. But they won't have the venue capacity to rehouse 30 fixtures within that county. You don't need this explained to you. I know you don't.
——
Sid with the greatest respect it's clear you're one of these guys who thinks that fixture coordination is easy. Because you've never been involved in it.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 10:35:27 PM
The right plan isn't complicated Sid. It's pretty much what was mooted a few weeks ago by the GAA.
1. Play county championship immediately after national league. This is the county season. It would run from January to early June.
2. Do not unnecessarily prolong the county championship. This isn't so much about getting rid of super 8s or back doors. And definitely not about getting rid of rest weeks. But there's no reason on this earth, why all 16 provincial quarter finals wouldn't take place on same weekend.
3. Start club leagues as early as is practical. But county panellists (maximum 32) are ineligible for club league football until their county has exited the championship, unless released temporarily by county mgt.
4. Club championships can start whenever a county board wants and can take any format they like. But provincial club championships start in first week of September, and all Ireland club championships start mid October, regardless of whether clubs have progressed.
5. For the welfare of our elite players, who've now possibly been on the go for 10 months within a break, November is a complete compulsory shutdown at adult levels. Clubs and counties have AGMs. Everything resets. Then in December we start planning / training for the coming season.
4.
That isn't a very clever plan because it simply does not take account of the GAA as a whole and its place in the sporting eco system
Any plan has to balance club players with media exposure, of which the inter-county game is the overwhelming driver
This is the reality
The inter-county championships need to be coming to the boil in September - because this is the time that maximises exposure for the GAA - which is extremely important
July, August, September are your key months, you can push it into the first week of October if needs be
Other sports have a fallow period in September and October - the soccer season hasn't hit full swing, there is little of interest in the way of rugby, or most other sports
This may not be important to you if you exist in a mindset where there are no other sports to compete with for media exposure
But this is a key point
Having the latter stages of the All-Ireland championships competing with a World Cup or Euros is not clever, not clever at all - because the inter-county championships are why kids want to start playing the games in the first place - minimise their exposure, and you minimise the very thing that gets kids involved
So the pluses for my plan are fourfold:
i) club championships have a designated period, get played in what is generally good weather - April/May/June - and can build up their own momentum and interest without being interrupted
ii) The club championships serve as a real chance for players to stake a claim for inter-county teams
iii) The influence of county managers is curbed - they have to play second fiddle to the clubs
iv) Media exposure is maximised
Club leagues can start in March with two or three rounds of games before the championship in April, then resume from late June/early July, when championship is finished
Well Sid the only thing that's unfolding from your most recent post is that you've limited interest in the club game, and that you are more interested in the GAA "product" than the GAA "community".
Hence you put the needs for media exposure over the needs for an active club football programme during the summer months.
This is okay. You're entitled to think like this.
But roughly 98% of the Association is more closely aligned to the other way. That's why the absolutely f**king ridiculous scenario whereby county managers would withhold players from club duty, for 3 county games in a 9 week window, is now coming to an end.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 10:49:04 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:34:02 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 10:23:16 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 10:08:36 PM
Let's flesh it out, and give an extra week for the spring to bed in:
April 11 Club Football Round Robin 1
April 18 Club Hurling Round Robin 1
April 25 Club Football Round Robin 2
May 2 Club Hurling Round Robin 2
May 9 Club Football Round Robin 3
May 16 Club Hurling Round Robin 3
May 23 Club Football Quarter-Finals
May 30 Club Hurling Quarter-Finals
June 6 Club Football Semi-Finals
June 13 Club Hurling Semi-Finals
June 20 Club Football Final
June 27 Club Hurling Final
Inter-county championships begin July 11th
All-Ireland Hurling Final September 26th
All-Ireland Football Final October 3rd
Provincial club championships resume October 17th, to be completed by November 14th
All-Ireland Club Finals December 12th
Seems a pretty reasonable time scale to me
1. You have circa 4-5 weeks at the start of that schedule where midweek games are only possible in floodlit, championship standard venues. Which in most counties will be extraordinary pressure on 1-3 venues. Basically there's no room for dual sport on the one weekend, not at early rounds anyhow.
2. Should we have a washout weekend any time during those 4-5 opening weeks, it can't be slotted in midweek. Literally every last fixture moves by a week? But hold on, there is no spare week / allowance week for this? So do we just push everything back by a week including the county programme?
But most of all this.
Your solution to the club~county player availability problems that have driven a wedge into the association for the past 20 years (apart from this year) is to revert almost entirely to the system that was in place 2 years ago (county, then club, then county, then club) except to railroad the club championships into a window that isn't big enough, instead of allowing them to be completed when counties exit their championship.
This is so poorly thought out it's insulting.
You might want to check when the sun sets in mid-April
April 11th sunset in Dublin: 8:19pm
They even play cricket in Ireland in April
But apparently now, it's impossible to play GAA
And it's apparently impossible to re-arrange any fixtures in a system which has a two week gap between fixtures, and plenty of adequate midweek daylight
Lord knows how they cope with the NFL and NHL which is played on a week to week basis in January, February and March
Two and a half months in spring and high summer is apparently not enough to complete club championships
The mind boggles
Your mind only boggles because it doesn't have real world experience of solving problems.
1. Until late-April in Ireland, you cannot start (non-floodlit) GAA matches any later than 6.45pm. Every half serious match takes 85 minutes (2 x 5 mins of injury time, 15 minutes of half time).
6.45pm throw-ins for some championship matches are feasible. Probably less so if you have to travel half the length of a county at rush hour.
2. There might be a two week gap. But if all the better venues in a county are needed for hurling championship the following weekend, good luck squeezing that wiped out football series in.
3. There's a maximum of 32 NFL and NHL games on any given weekend, and as they largely go on alternate weekends, a full series wipeout only needs 16-20 venues the following weekend to fulfil that series. Most counties will have 1-2 highly playable year-round venues. But they won't have the venue capacity to rehouse 30 fixtures within that county. You don't need this explained to you. I know you don't.
——
Sid with the greatest respect it's clear you're one of these guys who thinks that fixture coordination is easy. Because you've never been involved in it.
What I propose is eminently feasible
Club championships are already held from April
The way you're going on, we live in a permanent monsoon season
It may surprise you to learn that April is the driest month in Ireland
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 11:02:08 PM
Well Sid the only thing that's unfolding from your most recent post is that you've limited interest in the club game, and that you are more interested in the GAA "product" than the GAA "community".
Hence you put the needs for media exposure over the needs for an active club football programme during the summer months.
This is okay. You're entitled to think like this.
But roughly 98% of the Association is more closely aligned to the other way. That's why the absolutely f**king ridiculous scenario whereby county managers would withhold players from club duty, for 3 county games in a 9 week window, is now coming to an end.
The GAA as a "product" is the most important thing that drives interest in the club game, ie. getting children to play in the first place
Without the GAA as a "product", the club game withers away
This may be news to you if you live in a mental 1954, but the world has moved on - Ireland has a become an urban society
Refusal to understand this will result in the death of clubs
My plan sets out a very active club programme, it puts the club front and centre while also maximising the media exposure needed through inter-county which is needed to keep the GAA at the centre of Irish life
Anybody not capable of understanding that different needs have to be balanced hasn't a clue
And it might surprise you to learn that i was involved with a senior football club team that had saw an April league fixtures series wiped out in at least 10 of 20 seasons.
This is the difference between real world experience, and clinging to the first confirmation bias piece you come across on the internet.
——-
As mentioned many posts ago now, you are confused about the role of logistics. Logistics is about ensuring the delivery of a product. And when you devise a schedule in which 2200 clubs end up with one champion, and make no allowance for postponements, you're not doing logistics. You're living in a fantasy land.
But fundamentally, this doesn't come across as an issue for you. As long as the Daily Star publishes a 12 page pullout in June, with full page interviews with Cluckon and Philly, then your needs from the GAA will be sated. So whether it's logistics or fantasy, it doesn't matter.
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 11:11:01 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 11:02:08 PM
Well Sid the only thing that's unfolding from your most recent post is that you've limited interest in the club game, and that you are more interested in the GAA "product" than the GAA "community".
Hence you put the needs for media exposure over the needs for an active club football programme during the summer months.
This is okay. You're entitled to think like this.
But roughly 98% of the Association is more closely aligned to the other way. That's why the absolutely f**king ridiculous scenario whereby county managers would withhold players from club duty, for 3 county games in a 9 week window, is now coming to an end.
The GAA as a "product" is the most important thing that drives interest in the club game, ie. getting children to play in the first place
Without the GAA as a "product", the club game withers away
This may be news to you if you live in a mental 1954, but the world has moved on - Ireland has a become an urban society
Refusal to understand this will result in the death of clubs
My plan sets out a very active club programme, it puts the club front and centre while also maximising the media exposure needed through inter-county which is needed to keep the GAA at the centre of Irish life
Anybody not capable of understanding that different needs have to be balanced hasn't a clue
You are so very wrong.
The reason why children join GAA clubs, and first get involved in the game, is because:
1. The GAA has a physical footprint in almost every community in Ireland in the form of grounds. It is convenient.
2. The GAA reinforces community. A club from your community represents your community. This doesn't appeal to everyone, but it appeals to many.
3. The GAA has an established playing and coaching network in primary and secondary schools that ensures almost every child is exposed to the game when growing up.
4. The GAA is embedded in cultures through parents, uncles and aunts, grandparents. There will always be an expectation from a family member who has enjoyed the GAA that future generations of their family will do likewise.
——
Your point about media is not unnoticed. It has an important role to play in attracting families without any GAA connection. It has a role to play in converting the possibles to probables.
But the GAA is first and foremost a community organisation. This is what drives it and feeds it.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 11:16:37 PM
And it might surprise you to learn that i was involved with a senior football club team that had saw an April league fixtures series wiped out in at least 10 of 20 seasons.
This is the difference between real world experience, and clinging to the first confirmation bias piece you come across on the internet.
——-
As mentioned many posts ago now, you are confused about the role of logistics. Logistics is about ensuring the delivery of a product. And when you devise a schedule in which 2200 clubs end up with one champion, and make no allowance for postponements, you're not doing logistics. You're living in a fantasy land.
But fundamental, this doesn't come across as an issue for you. As long as the Daily Star publishes a 12 page pullout in June, with full page interviews with Cluckon and Philly, then your needs from the GAA will be sated. So whether it's logistics or fantasy, it doesn't matter.
Where do you live? Invercargill?
I have made allowance for the unlikely occurrence of postponements - I have quite clearly done so
Shouting that I haven't doesn't make it true
And I'm also only following on a theme which has actually happened in the GAA - club championships starting in April - this has already happened
I find it quite the chuckle that you're talking about real world experience when you seem to be blissfully unaware that Ireland has become an urban society and kids do not tend to play something because of tradition anymore, they have any amount of other options - even in one horse towns
Downgrading the inter-county scene as you, and indeed some of the top decision makers in the GAA itself propose, is lunacy, it's the surest way to downsize the GAA as a whole
Shouting about 12 page supplements in The Star? You really have lost the plot
Also, for your information, NFL and NFL weekends regularly cut across each other, I'd say they probably cut across each other more often than than not
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 11:27:04 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 28, 2020, 11:11:01 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2020, 11:02:08 PM
Well Sid the only thing that's unfolding from your most recent post is that you've limited interest in the club game, and that you are more interested in the GAA "product" than the GAA "community".
Hence you put the needs for media exposure over the needs for an active club football programme during the summer months.
This is okay. You're entitled to think like this.
But roughly 98% of the Association is more closely aligned to the other way. That's why the absolutely f**king ridiculous scenario whereby county managers would withhold players from club duty, for 3 county games in a 9 week window, is now coming to an end.
The GAA as a "product" is the most important thing that drives interest in the club game, ie. getting children to play in the first place
Without the GAA as a "product", the club game withers away
This may be news to you if you live in a mental 1954, but the world has moved on - Ireland has a become an urban society
Refusal to understand this will result in the death of clubs
My plan sets out a very active club programme, it puts the club front and centre while also maximising the media exposure needed through inter-county which is needed to keep the GAA at the centre of Irish life
Anybody not capable of understanding that different needs have to be balanced hasn't a clue
You are so very wrong.
The reason why children join GAA clubs, and first get involved in the game, is because:
1. The GAA has a physical footprint in almost every community in Ireland in the form of grounds. It is convenient.
2. The GAA reinforces community. A club from your community represents your community. This doesn't appeal to everyone, but it appeals to many.
3. The GAA has an established playing and coaching network in primary and secondary schools that ensures almost every child is exposed to the game when growing up.
4. The GAA is embedded in cultures through parents, uncles and aunts, grandparents. There will always be an expectation from a family member who has enjoyed the GAA that future generations of their family will do likewise.
——
Your point about media is not unnoticed. It has an important role to play in attracting families without any GAA connection. It has a role to play in converting the possibles to probables.
But the GAA is first and foremost a community organisation. This is what drives it and feeds it.
1-4 are necessary to drive high levels of participation but by themselves they are not sufficient
I did not start playing because of anything to do with club tradition, I started playing purely because my father dragged me to the first Dublin-Meath match in 1991 and I was excited by the atmosphere - I demanded to be brought to the other three matches, and suddenly had recognisable heroes to look up to - and because of the Cork-Tipp Munster finals in '91 - up to then, the only place I occasionally pucked ball was against my own garage with a hurley given to me as a Christmas present a few years before - I liked doing that, but I barely even knew there was such a thing as a GAA club a mile down the road from me, up to then my attitude towards the GAA as an organisation was largely one of contempt - I saw it, not to put too fine a point on it, as an organisation for culchie bogmen - as many Dublin kids of the time tended to
It was nothing to do with the reach of the local club or the local school, or tradition - I grew up consumed by Maradona and Liverpool and the Ireland team of Jack Charlton, so I played soccer well before I played GAA - as did most kids my age in Dublin - soccer was by far the primary interest
Why? Because there were heroes
Okay hear me out here.
The GAA has continued to prosper for 125 years, largely through its unique community ethos.
In a completely fair fist fight, soccer would almost certainly have trumped and then eroded other team sports in Ireland, just as it managed to do across Europe in the 1900s.
But the GAA didn't fight a fair fight. It bought up and stole land, it got firmly in bed with the church and schools, it banned dual sport participation, and it prohibited any member from freely or easily transferring to another club.
The methods were/are often below the belt. But the outcome is that an extraordinary number of towns and parishes across Ireland are interchangeably identifiable with their GAA club. It club is somewhere between embedded in their community, and the cornerstone of their community.
——
As a concept it doesn't work as well in large urban areas. This has very little to do with positioning, and everything to do with the facts that:
1. Partly due to the sheer volume of neighbours, and partly due to ease of transportation to city centres for socialising, city dwellers are less likely to have a close-knit community identity.
2. GAA clubs are innately based on pyramids. Regardless of whether you have 300 players registered at each age group, or 12 players registered at each age group, only 15 people can line out in the senior championship for their club. Regardless of whether you've 100 paying members or 2000 paying members, you will have roughly the same size of management committee. In a pyramid scenario like this, it's inevitable that those in the wider parts of the pyramid don't fee as enamoured with the club as those at the points. Except in smaller rural clubs, the wide part isn't that wide at all.
—-
You, being an urban dweller doesn't have the same affinity to your club as I do, as a rural dweller. This is understandable.
What I find less understandable is the premise that the GAA in 2020 must react, adapt and change to fight for prominence in growing urban areas, rather than continue to reinforce its community centric credentials.
See for me, if it all comes down to marketing and positioning, then the GAA is bucked. It will not be able to compete with English soccer.
But as long as in each of those urban communities, there are men and women proudly maintaining and pushing its virtues, then that GAA club will continue to provide an identity for a subset of the community in which it resides. It can't cover everyone. A gAA club with 10000 members just doesn't work.
But for those who get involved, it becomes a crucial part of their life.
——
To me, this extraordinarily more important to the association than competing with soccer. I couldn't give a damn of soccer grows tenfold in national importance over the next 10 years. That's their thing. As long as we've got clubs in every parish battling each other, that's our thing.
Even if we become a small minority and soccer and more likely rugger become the major sports everywhere?
Once there are 10 pure true "gales" left...?
Why would that happen Ros?
If the strategy/policy of not aping what soccer does has served us well for 125 years, why would we throw it out now? Urbanisation may pose a threat, but nowhere near the threat suggested by Sid.
"Pure GAA" may be safe in rural Nationalist 6 Counties but the majority of young folks in the 26 now live in housing estates in large towns and cities.
Their parents in most cases come from somewhere else and the young folks play all sports and couldn't give 2 hoots who scored the winning point in the Junior Final in 1956.
The GAA's best "selling point" for them is good playing/dressing room facilities and if you have a decent County team it helps too.
As per any debate, it's very easy to get statistics to prove just about bugging.
There is a greater percentage of Ireland's population now urbanised than ever before. But at the same time there has never been a higher number of rural dwellers.
Rural GAA clubs are not powered by percentages. They're powered by actual people.
——
Does this mean the Association shouldn't try to appeal to non-existing urban dwellers?
Absolutely not.
But if we are really at a point where the shop window is more important than the infrastructure, the we are doomed, for soccer has that strategy sewn up.
Thankfully, we are nowhere near that point.
There are NOT more rural dwellers than ever before.
Roscommon had 250,000 people in 1841 we now have 65,000.
Most rural clubs here have to amalgamate to field underage teams.
Not sure what you're arguing now?
Do you want an end to televised County games or do you want Inter County abolished?
Do you want clubs to be community organisations instead of fostering Gaelic games?
Why can't we have all 3 complementing each other?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2020, 12:08:51 PM
There are NOT more rural dwellers than ever before.
Roscommon had 250,000 people in 1841 we now have 65,000.
Most rural clubs here have to amalgamate to field underage teams.
Not sure what you're arguing now?
Do you want an end to televised County games or do you want Inter County abolished?
Do you want clubs to be community organisations instead of fostering Gaelic games?
Why can't we have all 3 complementing each other?
Have a look at https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ireland/rural-population
—-
If you're not sure what I'm arguing, then you should try reading the past 3 pages of this thread, then instead of embellishing my words and lampooning me for things I've not discussed, we might have a rational discussion.
Putting the needs of 98% of players above the needs of 2% is the single most important step in ensuring that Gaelic Games remains at the heart of communities across Ireland.
That's all.
As I've Sid on ignore I won't be reading back.
You might give some practical examples of what you mean by putting needs of 98% above needs of 2%?
What will that do for all those in communities in Derry City, West Belfast, Sligo town or Athlone town who ignore or hate the "Gah"?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2020, 12:08:51 PM
There are NOT more rural dwellers than ever before.
Roscommon had 250,000 people in 1841 we now have 65,000.
Most rural clubs here have to amalgamate to field underage teams.
Not sure what you're arguing now?
Do you want an end to televised County games or do you want Inter County abolished?
Do you want clubs to be community organisations instead of fostering Gaelic games?
Why can't we have all 3 complementing each other?
Also, there is nothing in the senior club scene, or the top team in each club whichever grade they are at, that is inherently more of a genuine community driver than the senior inter-county scene
Senior club teams are their own singular entities driven by the prospect of success - not participation
But the strength of a club in terms of community is in
participation -
across grades and age levels - not the top team in each club
If you are looking at clubs as a
real community driver, it's far more important to field a second team or a third team or a fourth team, if you can do that
Outside of the top adult team in each club, the senior inter county scene and the club and underage scenes have no connection to each other - they do not have players common to both
Wobbler is looking at this purely through the lens of senior club -
not clubs as community organisations - and that is entirely the wrong lens to look at things through
Slaughtneil is commonly cited as an example of a rural club who are doing things the right way in terms of real community involvement - and that has filtered up to senior club level with them - but it seems to me that Derry as a GAA county has fallen off the map because as a county they have retreated into the mindset of patented true Gaelism, cliqueishess and the concept of the GAA being purely a faction fight between rural parishes with nothing beyond that
There are no heroes in Derry now and there hasn't been since Paddy Bradley, and Derry city is as far away in GAA terms as it ever was
Could we not leave starting the intercounty season until the summer? June to the end of Oct should be enough to run off the league and Championship.
Club campaigns should be well able to ran off between from Jan to May.
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
You'll never be happy.
You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.
Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.
This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.
Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
Matches involving the top adult team in each club are not 98% of fixtures, or anywhere remotely near it
98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.
I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.
"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."
Quote from: Angelo on November 29, 2020, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
You'll never be happy.
You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.
Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.
This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.
Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.
Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other
As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?
Serious and good post (as usual) by Sam.
You're getting your wish with the split season thing anyway.
Whatever about 2021 I think it will settle into County primarily till mid July and Club only from there.
I too would like to see 3 Inter County football AIs -
Premier Senior
Senior A
Senior B
With promotion/relegation. I'd keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions with every County entering.
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 29, 2020, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
You'll never be happy.
You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.
Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.
This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.
Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.
Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other
As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?
What's the alternative Einstein?
These are unprecedented circumstances.
Clubs play a 8-12 month season as we are generally and the gripe most people have with clubs is being deprived of their county players. So in these unprecedented circumstances we have an arrangement put forward that allows the club and county calendar to be split in a way that provides a decent compromise where club and county can be facilitated. It allows club players to have access to their county men for the duration of the club game. And it seems bitching about the weather it is played in seems to be the main gripe.
Have you anything constructive to add or are you just going to offer tiring criticisms?
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2020, 03:03:57 PM
Serious and good post (as usual) by Sam.
You're getting your wish with the split season thing anyway.
Whatever about 2021 I think it will settle into County primarily till mid July and Club only from there.
I too would like to see 3 Inter County football AIs -
Premier Senior
Senior A
Senior B
With promotion/relegation. I'd keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions with every County entering.
Think that's a workable solution Ross
Quote from: Angelo on November 29, 2020, 03:04:11 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: Angelo on November 29, 2020, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 01:54:39 PM
Yes Angelo, the obvious thing to do is to move 98% of fixtures to the dampest, shortest months of the year, so that 2% of fixtures can be played in perfect summer conditions.
Even better, this approach means that for the whole month of September, we would only have 2 adult games, the AI finals. But sure don't they deserve that platform ?
Unbelievable.
You'll never be happy.
You're probably one of those types who would be bitching about club teams not having their county players.
Most clubs are back in training every February at latest. The club season runs from around March to whenever, for some clubs they never have a break and their seasons combine.
This way you get your county players available, you have a condensed block of time to run off both seasons and it's win/win.
Ireland is wet and damp for most of the year in any case. These are unique circumstances, hopefully by 2022 things will be able to cater for a better arrangement but you seem like one of those people who will find a problem with every solution.
Wobbler has earned serious kudos on this board , for many years of insightful challenging points around GAA . I don't always agree with everything he says, but Over the years many of his views have become widely accepted. He tends to be ahead of his time in terms of his analysis .
I agree that we must cement what makes the GAA punch well above its weight: and for me that's 2 Main things:
1.identity ( family , community, county , country )
2. Quality of the product: excellent team sports to match any other
As far as I'm concerned there are 3 basic tiers in terms of Intercounty competition : senior, intermediate, junior. This system works really well at club level where clubs find their level and must invest to step up. It would be considered absolutely ridiculous to expect a junior club with limited resources to challenge a top senior club, but essentially that's the premise the current Intercounty championship works. So a county like Waterford for example , puts resource into training a team for Munster SFC each year and literally never wins , yet Groundhog Day appears again next May.
Under the current system in reality, only the following counties have any chance of winning the SFC: Dublin Kerry mayo Galway Donegal Tyrone Cork. The only exception to these counties in getting to the AIF in nearly 2 decades was Down 2010. It's a bit of an exaggeration , but everybody outside that top 7 is basically making up the numbers in a phoney war. The resources wasted in no-hope counties in this phoney war makes no sense to me. I argued on this discussion board many years ago that there should be compacted and separate Intercounty season, thankfully this split season is now coming to fruition. Playing Intercounty early makes perfect sense to me. AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year. Club football competitions can proceed without county players in this block, but county players are back with their clubs for the summer. If this year taught us anything in the GAA, it's that the club game with full availability of players is a brilliant community event, long may this continue. Angelo, you sometimes make good points, but you lose credibility when you do things like deride Wobbler about complaining about county players not playing for their club . That attitude doesn't make sense to any member of the GAA I know. Are you an actual club member ?
What's the alternative Einstein?
These are unprecedented circumstances.
Clubs play a 8-12 month season as we are generally and the gripe most people have with clubs is being deprived of their county players. So in these unprecedented circumstances we have an arrangement put forward that allows the club and county calendar to be split in a way that provides a decent compromise where club and county can be facilitated. It allows club players to have access to their county men for the duration of the club game. And it seems bitching about the weather it is played in seems to be the main gripe.
Have you anything constructive to add or are you just going to offer tiring criticisms?
😂doesn't take much to engender aggression from you Angelo. Read my lips🤦🏻♂️ . I'm offering a solution to cement Intercounty and club for all. We'll not be far away from that in the new arrangements, but a further enhancement by giving every county in the country competitive football at their own level and a chance to progress. Counties Throwing good money after bad, on preparing for meaningless championship fixtures makes no sense to me. A tiered system allows the county season to be run off quicker and is likely to enhance the revenue generated from a compacted county season . Like club football if you want to upgrade, you work hard you invest and the cream comes to the top.
I think where the county game can learn from
The club game, is that you must recognise and market all tiers. A club JFC victory is massive for a club with big crowds relatively speaking , county boards promote these completions and they've genuine kudos . GAA centrally put nowhere near enough effort promoting lower tiers eg Christy Ring.
Imagine the pride in léitrim developing a team to win a senior B title and getting a crack at Senior A the following year. It engenders genuine and realistic incentives to all counties. And "lesser" counties can cut their cloth for a compacted season , depending on their ambitions.
Not club v county, it should be club + county. Great times ahead
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 02:21:02 PM
98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.
I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.
"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."
Not 98% of adult fixtures
Or anywhere near it
For somebody who is claiming to speak for club players you have an incredibly dismissive attitude towards many of them
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 02:21:02 PM
98% of ADULT fixtures then Sid.
I can't wait for the marketing campaign to back this one.
"Hey you, sort of interested teenager. Stick at Gaelic Games and W hen you're an adult, if you get really good at it and are prepared to live a monkish existence, we will even let you play on summer pitches. That's a good lad."
Not 98% of adult fixtures
Or anywhere near it
For somebody who is claiming to speak for club players you have an incredibly dismissive attitude towards many of them
I'll not speak for wobbler, though I imagine at least 98% of fixture are club fixtures, in my experience ~75% of these will be club senior teams. However even reserve fixtures are indirectly affected by Intercounty football at senior u20 and junior levels. Freeing up summer /early autumn for clubs, means clubs at all levels and grades will have more football in the summer . Notably many clubs have only 1 pitch and less maintenance resources compared to county pitches, so this will be another gain in terms of pitch care across the board.
Going thru a compact AI winning campaign in spring/early summer would actually be more attractive as we've the whole summer to look forward to with loads of club games and importantly players club and county actually get an off season. It's win/win. The opportunity should also be taken to set county budgetary restrictions, and share sponsorship more evenly ( cf Dublin's current unfair advantages which are threatening to destroy the county game).
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 04:14:34 PM
😂doesn't take much to engender aggression from you Angelo. Read my lips🤦🏻♂️ . I'm offering a solution to cement Intercounty and club for all. We'll not be far away from that in the new arrangements, but a further enhancement by giving every county in the country competitive football at their own level and a chance to progress. Counties Throwing good money after bad, on preparing for meaningless championship fixtures makes no sense to me. A tiered system allows the county season to be run off quicker and is likely to enhance the revenue generated from a compacted county season . Like club football if you want to upgrade, you work hard you invest and the cream comes to the top.
I think where the county game can learn from
The club game, is that you must recognise and market all tiers. A club JFC victory is massive for a club with big crowds relatively speaking , county boards promote these completions and they've genuine kudos . GAA centrally put nowhere near enough effort promoting lower tiers eg Christy Ring.
Imagine the pride in léitrim developing a team to win a senior B title and getting a crack at Senior A the following year. It engenders genuine and realistic incentives to all counties. And "lesser" counties can cut their cloth for a compacted season , depending on their ambitions.
Not club v county, it should be club + county. Great times ahead
B championships and the like have been talked about at inter county level for years, there have been B competitions, there used to be an All-Ireland B competition back in the 1990s, there used to be the Tommy Murphy Cup
And they've never worked
But what did work was Fermanagh and Wexford and Tipperary reaching an All-Ireland semi-final, and Leitrim winning a Connacht title, because it was the real thing, or Wicklow beating Down in 2009, or Longford beating Mayo in 2010
Even in hurling, the lower competitions have done nothing for Antrim, Offaly, Laois - nothing at all, the best they can hope for is to be yo-yo counties
These proposed B and C competitions will create a vicious cycle where whole counties will just give up
And these competitions will never be marketed, you can't market a turd
People simply won't care
Leitrim and Waterford are not going to care about a B competition, they're not going to win it anyway
I think Sligo's Neil Ewing was correct a couple of years back - the current NFL format has not been good for a lot of weaker counties - maybe the best thing would be to go back to a 16 team Division 1 and Division 2, each split in half equally
It would give a more even standard of football for all rather than the current lopsided structure - that's key in giving mid ranking counties a chance to improve, ie. Meath and Kildare - Meath are straight back down to Division 2 now after seven defeats out of seven
Not good enough for D1.
So we add in 8 more teams to D1.
Sure why not put all 32 in D1?
Don't have a "B" because Leitrim* or Waterford won't win it so keep them in the A ......
* Leitrim did win the AI "B" about 30 years ago and subsequently ran Ros close in Connacht culminating in winning it in 94.
All started with the B win.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2020, 06:58:35 PM
Not good enough for D1.
So we add in 8 more teams to D1.
Sure why not put all 32 in D1?
Don't have a "B" because Leitrim* or Waterford won't win it so keep them in the A ......
* Leitrim did win the AI "B" about 30 years ago and subsequently ran Ros close in Connacht culminating in winning it in 94.
All started with the B win.
Getting regular league football against the likes of Meath, Cork, Mayo, Donegal, Derry, Tyrone and Kildare over several years had a hell of a lot more to do with it
Importing a couple of Dubs didn't harm them either
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
Sid's take is that the GAA championship will suffer in competition with soccer, even though the championship has always shared 3 of its 5 month season with cross-channel soccer and world cups.
Actually when you type that up it's ludicrous. 5 months to run off a competition where the winners play at most 10 matches.
But I still don't understand the take. When the championship is knockout and competitive, stadiums are full. Doesn't matter whether it's round 1 in May, or the final on September. When the games are dead rubbers and/or non competitive, they half fill Croke Park, even for semi finals in August.
It's a quality competition that attracts people. The media don't create a competition, but they feed on it when it catches public imagination. Time of year is a small, maybe even trivial factor.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 08:15:11 PM
Sid's take is that the GAA championship will suffer in competition with soccer, even though the championship has always shared 3 of its 5 month season with cross-channel soccer and world cups.
Actually when you type that up it's ludicrous. 5 months to run off a competition where the winners play at most 10 matches.
But I still don't understand the take. When the championship is knockout and competitive, stadiums are full. Doesn't matter whether it's round 1 in May, or the final on September. When the games are dead rubbers and/or non competitive, they half fill Croke Park, even for semi finals in August.
It's a quality competition that attracts people. The media don't create a competition, but they feed on it when it catches public imagination. Time of year is a small, maybe even trivial factor.
Of course what you neglect to mention is that the two months of the English soccer season the GAA championships have traditionally been played in are August and September, when interest in English soccer is far less
Of course the GAA championships suffer from being at the same time as World Cups and Euros - an early season Super Sunday between Brighton and Newcastle, well, not so much
Do you think Derry v Donegal 2002 suffered in terms of general interest?
Did Dublin v Meath 2010 suffer in terms of general interest?
Did Armagh v Down 2011 suffer in terms of general interest?
Did Dublin v Meath 2016 suffer in terms of general interest?
Of course they did, everybody outside the die hards was watching the World Cup, the Champions League final and the Euros
Scheduling the business end of your championships to clash with the end of the soccer season, the World Cup and Euros is pure idiocy
Although perhaps not if you come the rural True Gael™ paradise you inhabit!
But the GAA faces competition - if you're a corner shop with a reliable clientele because there are no other shops within a mile, you don't close down the shop, up sticks and set up behind the Tesco superstore five miles away
Thats 4 games in literally forever.
Put the AI knockout stages on in June and every once in a blue moon, they'll clash with an Ireland game in a World Cup finals or a champions league final involving Man Utd or Liverpool. No doubt about it. But that's not reason enough to drag the all Ireland over the entire summer, and let's be honest as long as top brass can show a little wherewithal to not stubbornly stick to 7pm Saturdays in the first week of June, and the relevant timing for a Sunday in early July every other year, it won't be an issue.
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 09:08:26 PM
Thats 4 games in literally forever.
Put the AI knockout stages on in June and every once in a blue moon, they'll clash with an Ireland game in a World Cup finals or a champions league final involving Man Utd or Liverpool. No doubt about it. But that's not reason enough to drag the all Ireland over the entire summer, and let's be honest as long as top brass can show a little wherewithal to not stubbornly stick to 7pm Saturdays in the first week of June, and the relevant timing for a Sunday in early July every other year, it won't be an issue.
Every second summer is not once in a blue moon
The soccer season comes to a crescendo in April and May every year
You're the person with the questions to answer here - you're proposing to move the GAA's showpiece competitions forward three months from their traditional final dates - slots which have worked extremely well for a century - not least because August and September are months where there are few counter attractions
It's like baseball deciding to move the World Series to clash with the Superbowl
You need a minimum of three months to play the inter-county championship, because you have to maximise media exposure
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
We regularly see 5-figure attendances for national league games in February, and that's in a competition- with the greatest respect to Dublin and Kerry - that the players don't even seem to celebrate winning.
If you're worried about county championship attendances being hit if starting in March, you're worried about the wrong thing.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 10:24:27 PM
We regularly see 5-figure attendances for national league games in February, and that's in a competition- with the greatest respect to Dublin and Kerry - that the players don't even seem to celebrate winning.
If you're worried about county championship attendances being hit if starting in March, you're worried about the wrong thing.
10,001 is a five figure attendance
So is 82,300
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:29:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 10:24:27 PM
We regularly see 5-figure attendances for national league games in February, and that's in a competition- with the greatest respect to Dublin and Kerry - that the players don't even seem to celebrate winning.
If you're worried about county championship attendances being hit if starting in March, you're worried about the wrong thing.
10,001 is a five figure attendance
So is 82,300
Thanks for that clarification. We could go around in circles for a while with this one.
But I will say this. The league (in both codes) is a second tier competition, often played with experimental teams in far flung venues, and one that enjoys limited marketing, limited media exposure, limited narrative in terms of creating the "heroes" you believe the sport needs. And as mentioned previously, nobody is that bothered by winning the competition outright. The goals are to get promoted, thereby giving you a better chance the following season of being prepared for championship ball, or (if in D1) to stay up, thereby giving you a better chance of being prepared for championship ball the following season.
And yet despite this positioning, its weekly cumulative attendance comfortably (and per code) dwarfs that of every other sport in Ireland, regardless of what stage their competitions are at.
So even when the elements are against it, the game enjoys a national allure. The interest is there and in spades. And in the vast majority of counties it doesn't fluctuate like it does in Dublin. There is a strong baseline that improves with success, but doesn't fall below the baseline in failure.
Why these figures wouldn't translate into a multiple if running its premier competition, held in the warmer months of March-June, well I can't work that one out. I don't think anyone could to be honest.
Earlier you were making out that April was something akin to monsoon season
Now March is a "warmer month"
I'm not sure I've ever been colder than on the lower deck of the Cusack Stand on Paddy's Day 2008 with an Arctic wind cutting through me, me teeth were chattering
The night of Paddy's Day 2016 perhaps, when me teeth were chattering again walking home pissed from a Damien Dempsey gig
10/3/13 for Dublin v Kildare was another teeth chatterer
As was 28/3/15 for Dublin v Derry (RIP)
23/2/19 for Dublin v Mayo was balmy and still, however, that's Ireland for ya
As was 3/12/17 for Liam Mellows v St. Thomas at Salthill and 22/11/15 for Sarsfields v Craughwell at the same venue
Anyway, March can be cold, it can be bloody cold
And somewhere along the line, hopefully this will register with you:
1. If a county has to host 24 club championship games (48 clubs, a pretty solid representation of most counties) in one week in March, then every single year this will put on extraordinary pressure on a couple of venues in that county, and in some years, stormy weekend will see the majority or all 24 games cancelled and needing rehoused at a later date. It's a logistical mindfuck.
2. If a county has to host one single county championship match and they can turn to their county pitch, which hasn't been used in the past 7 days, then it will usually be playable, even in a harsh March. But if it isn't, there's still only one fixture that needs rehoused. It's a minor logistical issue involving two sets of administrators and can be solved quickly.
——
So quick you were to point out that 5-figure attendances can have a huge variance, when it was not relevant.
So slow are you to realise that 24 times one, is in fact 24 times one. It more or less equates to the 98% versus the 2%. And you are so blinded by your lack of understanding of how the GAA operates outside Dublin, that you just can't wrap your head around this basic mathematical concept.
Wise up Sid. Draw a line under this. Move on.
And as a footnote, if you haven't worked out that my reference to the warmer months was in reference to national leagues being played in jan-feb, and the new championship structure kicking off March-April, well then, once again you are being obtuse.
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
😂😂 I didn't even know Ireland played Germany that day. perhaps the US masters was on the same day for all I know. I seem to remember Derry's Celtic Park was a full house anyway 😂. Perhaps we wouldn't have filled Croke Park that day but Tbf even the mighty Dubs can't even half fill Croke park anymore despite the current exposure ( and advantages) they enjoy, and which you propose to continue.
Since you brought up Down, here's a stat for you to consider, since Down beat Dublin in the 1994 AI final, Down have enjoyed home venue for Championship including qualifiers on , I'm guessing , 15 occasions , whilst the Dubs have never had a championship game in their home venue, instead they've had to navigate their way to the national stadium on , I'm guessing over 200 Occasions . I respect Dublin players and management for what they e achieved, but they'll never get the credit they deserve because of the advantages they enjoy under their current system. NFL/NBA have the draft system and even FIFA have financial restrictions, To try to get as level a playing field as possible, yet in the GAA we continue to give Dublin a leg up , whilst lowering the bar at the same time. You couldn't make it up🤦🏻♂️
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:00:01 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 29, 2020, 08:15:11 PM
Sid's take is that the GAA championship will suffer in competition with soccer, even though the championship has always shared 3 of its 5 month season with cross-channel soccer and world cups.
Actually when you type that up it's ludicrous. 5 months to run off a competition where the winners play at most 10 matches.
But I still don't understand the take. When the championship is knockout and competitive, stadiums are full. Doesn't matter whether it's round 1 in May, or the final on September. When the games are dead rubbers and/or non competitive, they half fill Croke Park, even for semi finals in August.
It's a quality competition that attracts people. The media don't create a competition, but they feed on it when it catches public imagination. Time of year is a small, maybe even trivial factor.
Of course what you neglect to mention is that the two months of the English soccer season the GAA championships have traditionally been played in are August and September, when interest in English soccer is far less
Of course the GAA championships suffer from being at the same time as World Cups and Euros - an early season Super Sunday between Brighton and Newcastle, well, not so much
Do you think Derry v Donegal 2002 suffered in terms of general interest?
Did Dublin v Meath 2010 suffer in terms of general interest?
Did Armagh v Down 2011 suffer in terms of general interest?
Did Dublin v Meath 2016 suffer in terms of general interest?
Of course they did, everybody outside the die hards was watching the World Cup, the Champions League final and the Euros
Scheduling the business end of your championships to clash with the end of the soccer season, the World Cup and Euros is pure idiocy
Although perhaps not if you come the rural True Gael™ paradise you inhabit!
But the GAA faces competition - if you're a corner shop with a reliable clientele because there are no other shops within a mile, you don't close down the shop, up sticks and set up behind the Tesco superstore five miles away
Some list,
These soccer clashes obviously grate with you. I like the groundball myself, and think clashes could be avoided simply by changing days rather than a whole fixture list.I don't see FAI/IFA allowing GAA fixtures to dictate their decision making , sadly.
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 11:54:10 PM
Earlier you were making out that April was something akin to monsoon season
Now March is a "warmer month"
I'm not sure I've ever been colder than on the lower deck of the Cusack Stand on Paddy's Day 2008 with an Arctic wind cutting through me, me teeth were chattering
The night of Paddy's Day 2016 perhaps, when me teeth were chattering again walking home pissed from a Damien Dempsey gig
10/3/13 for Dublin v Kildare was another teeth chatterer
As was 28/3/15 for Dublin v Derry (RIP)
23/2/19 for Dublin v Mayo was balmy and still, however, that's Ireland for ya
As was 3/12/17 for Liam Mellows v St. Thomas at Salthill and 22/11/15 for Sarsfields v Craughwell at the same venue
Anyway, March can be cold, it can be bloody cold
I'll tell you what, I was at Parkhead a few years ago in December, watching Celtic v Bayern . It must have been cold as I had 5 layers on but I didn't notice it , as 62000 fans were watching a top game on a perfect pitch. I was surprised to see such a big crowd , as it clashed with "Strictly" which was on the same night😂
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 12:14:18 AM
And somewhere along the line, hopefully this will register with you:
1. If a county has to host 24 club championship games (48 clubs, a pretty solid representation of most counties) in one week in March, then every single year this will put on extraordinary pressure on a couple of venues in that county, and in some years, stormy weekend will see the majority or all 24 games cancelled and needing rehoused at a later date. It's a logistical mindfuck.
2. If a county has to host one single county championship match and they can turn to their county pitch, which hasn't been used in the past 7 days, then it will usually be playable, even in a harsh March. But if it isn't, there's still only one fixture that needs rehoused. It's a minor logistical issue involving two sets of administrators and can be solved quickly.
——
So quick you were to point out that 5-figure attendances can have a huge variance, when it was not relevant.
So slow are you to realise that 24 times one, is in fact 24 times one. It more or less equates to the 98% versus the 2%. And you are so blinded by your lack of understanding of how the GAA operates outside Dublin, that you just can't wrap your head around this basic mathematical concept.
Wise up Sid. Draw a line under this. Move on.
Though unusually for you wobbler, your maths are slightly exaggerated on this, I 100% agree , as would anyone with a knowledge of the actual logistics involved at club and county level.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 12:14:18 AM
And somewhere along the line, hopefully this will register with you:
1. If a county has to host 24 club championship games (48 clubs, a pretty solid representation of most counties) in one week in March, then every single year this will put on extraordinary pressure on a couple of venues in that county, and in some years, stormy weekend will see the majority or all 24 games cancelled and needing rehoused at a later date. It's a logistical mindfuck.
2. If a county has to host one single county championship match and they can turn to their county pitch, which hasn't been used in the past 7 days, then it will usually be playable, even in a harsh March. But if it isn't, there's still only one fixture that needs rehoused. It's a minor logistical issue involving two sets of administrators and can be solved quickly.
——
So quick you were to point out that 5-figure attendances can have a huge variance, when it was not relevant.
So slow are you to realise that 24 times one, is in fact 24 times one. It more or less equates to the 98% versus the 2%. And you are so blinded by your lack of understanding of how the GAA operates outside Dublin, that you just can't wrap your head around this basic mathematical concept.
Wise up Sid. Draw a line under this. Move on.
I put forward two plans
Where have I suggested playing club championship games in March
Go on
That 98% figure again - the one that's wrong
But sure keep arguing with points nobody made
As you might say yourself, wise up
Because you sure need to
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
The narrative shifts yet again
First it was "we want games", "we want certainty"
Now it seems that's not the case at all
It's mad, people are saying the county managers have too much power - now they don't have
enough power?
Players manage to play for different teams in other sports just fine - heard of international windows in soocer? Which involve far more travel than lining out for your club a few times during the summer
As regards "protecting players", let's take a successful county player in Ulster whose county ends up in the prelim of the Ulster championship, let's say they go all the way to the All-Ireland
Under the above plan he'll have matches on
April 18th (club)
May 2nd (club)
May 16th (county)
May 30 (county)
June 6th (club)
June 13th (club)
June 27th (county)
July 11th or 18th (county)
July 28th (club)
August 15th (county)
August 29th (county)
September 12th (county)
Let's say his club reaches the All-Ireland club final
He might be out again on October 3rd
Then October 17th
November 1st
November 8th
November 22nd
December 5th
December 19th
It sounds pretty reasonable to me
Yet it seems no plan other than the hare brained idea to shoehorn the most important competitions the GAA has into spring and early summer is good enough for some
Bizarre stuff
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
😂😂 I didn't even know Ireland played Germany that day. perhaps the US masters was on the same day for all I know. I seem to remember Derry's Celtic Park was a full house anyway 😂. Perhaps we wouldn't have filled Croke Park that day but Tbf even the mighty Dubs can't even half fill Croke park anymore despite the current exposure ( and advantages) they enjoy, and which you propose to continue.
Since you brought up Down, here's a stat for you to consider, since Down beat Dublin in the 1994 AI final, Down have enjoyed home venue for Championship including qualifiers on , I'm guessing , 15 occasions , whilst the Dubs have never had a championship game in their home venue, instead they've had to navigate their way to the national stadium on , I'm guessing over 200 Occasions . I respect Dublin players and management for what they e achieved, but they'll never get the credit they deserve because of the advantages they enjoy under their current system. NFL/NBA have the draft system and even FIFA have financial restrictions, To try to get as level a playing field as possible, yet in the GAA we continue to give Dublin a leg up , whilst lowering the bar at the same time. You couldn't make it up🤦🏻♂️
No Dublin supporter objects to Dublin being taken out of Croke Park, or to away championship venues - Dublin supporters would only love that - going on the road to support your team is what it's all about
Take it up with the Leinster council, which is made up by the rest of Leinster
Nor do Dublin supporters object to other counties getting their houses in order or them being given a leg up in order to do so
The plans to revitalise GAA in Dublin in the 2000s were mainly about participation
Which is a very good thing
The more participation, the healthier all levels of the GAA become
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
The narrative shifts yet again
First it was "we want games", "we want certainty"
Now it seems that's not the case at all
It's mad, people are saying the county managers have too much power - now they don't have enough power?
Players manage to play for different teams in other sports just fine - heard of international windows in soocer? Which involve far more travel than lining out for your club a few times during the summer
As regards "protecting players", let's take a successful county player in Ulster whose county ends up in the prelim of the Ulster championship, let's say they go all the way to the All-Ireland
Under the above plan he'll have matches on
April 18th (club)
May 2nd (club)
May 16th (county)
May 30 (county)
June 6th (club)
June 13th (club)
June 27th (county)
July 11th or 18th (county)
July 28th (club)
August 15th (county)
August 29th (county)
September 12th (county)
Let's say his club reaches the All-Ireland club final
He might be out again on October 3rd
Then October 17th
November 1st
November 8th
November 22nd
December 5th
December 19th
It sounds pretty reasonable to me
Yet it seems no plan other than the hare brained idea to shoehorn the most important competitions the GAA has into spring and early summer is good enough for some
Bizarre stuff
the system you propose means that a Tyrone player getting to an All Ireland final is released for a couple of club championship games in the summer, and then he risks injury by going into a different environment with variable injury risks. He and his club mates just have to "suck it up". This is an amateur sport ( some counties more amateur than others tbf) . This might make sense to a Dublin or Kerry player who regulArly gets to Croke park, as a schoolteacher or gets a career leg up or other perks through his Intercounty involvement , but it doesn't make sense for 90%+ of county players.
All this for an elongated AI series ???
There must be a more level playing field to ensure club and county thrive and this season has shown they can thrive in a split season
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:58:29 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
😂😂 I didn't even know Ireland played Germany that day. perhaps the US masters was on the same day for all I know. I seem to remember Derry's Celtic Park was a full house anyway 😂. Perhaps we wouldn't have filled Croke Park that day but Tbf even the mighty Dubs can't even half fill Croke park anymore despite the current exposure ( and advantages) they enjoy, and which you propose to continue.
Since you brought up Down, here's a stat for you to consider, since Down beat Dublin in the 1994 AI final, Down have enjoyed home venue for Championship including qualifiers on , I'm guessing , 15 occasions , whilst the Dubs have never had a championship game in their home venue, instead they've had to navigate their way to the national stadium on , I'm guessing over 200 Occasions . I respect Dublin players and management for what they e achieved, but they'll never get the credit they deserve because of the advantages they enjoy under their current system. NFL/NBA have the draft system and even FIFA have financial restrictions, To try to get as level a playing field as possible, yet in the GAA we continue to give Dublin a leg up , whilst lowering the bar at the same time. You couldn't make it up🤦🏻♂️
No Dublin supporter objects to Dublin being taken out of Croke Park, or to away championship venues - Dublin supporters would only love that - going on the road to support your team is what it's all about
Take it up with the Leinster council, which is made up by the rest of Leinster
Nor do Dublin supporters object to other counties getting their houses in order or them being given a leg up in order to do so
The plans to revitalise GAA in Dublin in the 2000s were mainly about participation
Which is a very good thing
The more participation, the healthier all levels of the GAA become
Totally agree with all the above Dublin are merely availing of the unfair advantages the GAA promotes
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 12:19:50 AM
And as a footnote, if you haven't worked out that my reference to the warmer months was in reference to national leagues being played in jan-feb, and the new championship structure kicking off March-April, well then, once again you are being obtuse.
To call March a "warmer month" was a pretty dumb reference, move on
https://www.met.ie/climate/available-data/monthly-data
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
The narrative shifts yet again
First it was "we want games", "we want certainty"
Now it seems that's not the case at all
It's mad, people are saying the county managers have too much power - now they don't have enough power?
Players manage to play for different teams in other sports just fine - heard of international windows in soocer? Which involve far more travel than lining out for your club a few times during the summer
As regards "protecting players", let's take a successful county player in Ulster whose county ends up in the prelim of the Ulster championship, let's say they go all the way to the All-Ireland
Under the above plan he'll have matches on
April 18th (club)
May 2nd (club)
May 16th (county)
May 30 (county)
June 6th (club)
June 13th (club)
June 27th (county)
July 11th or 18th (county)
July 28th (club)
August 15th (county)
August 29th (county)
September 12th (county)
Let's say his club reaches the All-Ireland club final
He might be out again on October 3rd
Then October 17th
November 1st
November 8th
November 22nd
December 5th
December 19th
It sounds pretty reasonable to me
Yet it seems no plan other than the hare brained idea to shoehorn the most important competitions the GAA has into spring and early summer is good enough for some
Bizarre stuff
the system you propose means that a Tyrone player getting to an All Ireland final is released for a couple of club championship games in the summer, and then he risks injury by going into a different environment with variable injury risks. He and his club mates just have to "suck it up". This is an amateur sport ( some counties more amateur than others tbf) . This might make sense to a Dublin or Kerry player who regulArly gets to Croke park, as a schoolteacher or gets a career leg up or other perks through his Intercounty involvement , but it doesn't make sense for 90%+ of county players.
All this for an elongated AI series ???
There must be a more level playing field to ensure club and county thrive and this season has shown they can thrive in a split season
I have no idea what your reference to Dublin or Kerry players here is about - under the above plan players in all county teams would play club championship on the same designated dates
Have a look at the fixture schedule I set out
It's very reasonable - players want to play, don't they?
It sounds like you're proposing to wrap players in cotton wool for the county team
I thought this was what we
didn't want?
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:58:29 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
😂😂 I didn't even know Ireland played Germany that day. perhaps the US masters was on the same day for all I know. I seem to remember Derry's Celtic Park was a full house anyway 😂. Perhaps we wouldn't have filled Croke Park that day but Tbf even the mighty Dubs can't even half fill Croke park anymore despite the current exposure ( and advantages) they enjoy, and which you propose to continue.
Since you brought up Down, here's a stat for you to consider, since Down beat Dublin in the 1994 AI final, Down have enjoyed home venue for Championship including qualifiers on , I'm guessing , 15 occasions , whilst the Dubs have never had a championship game in their home venue, instead they've had to navigate their way to the national stadium on , I'm guessing over 200 Occasions . I respect Dublin players and management for what they e achieved, but they'll never get the credit they deserve because of the advantages they enjoy under their current system. NFL/NBA have the draft system and even FIFA have financial restrictions, To try to get as level a playing field as possible, yet in the GAA we continue to give Dublin a leg up , whilst lowering the bar at the same time. You couldn't make it up🤦🏻♂️
No Dublin supporter objects to Dublin being taken out of Croke Park, or to away championship venues - Dublin supporters would only love that - going on the road to support your team is what it's all about
Take it up with the Leinster council, which is made up by the rest of Leinster
Nor do Dublin supporters object to other counties getting their houses in order or them being given a leg up in order to do so
The plans to revitalise GAA in Dublin in the 2000s were mainly about participation
Which is a very good thing
The more participation, the healthier all levels of the GAA become
Totally agree with all the above Dublin are merely availing of the unfair advantages the GAA promotes
Representative sport is inherently unfair, we've been over this a million times
The only way to solve that is that is to reorganise the county system into franchises based on equitable populations
But I don't think anybody wants that
Because, as you yourself referenced earlier, identity is king - a GAA version of the Ospreys would not work
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 02:16:17 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
The narrative shifts yet again
First it was "we want games", "we want certainty"
Now it seems that's not the case at all
It's mad, people are saying the county managers have too much power - now they don't have enough power?
Players manage to play for different teams in other sports just fine - heard of international windows in soocer? Which involve far more travel than lining out for your club a few times during the summer
As regards "protecting players", let's take a successful county player in Ulster whose county ends up in the prelim of the Ulster championship, let's say they go all the way to the All-Ireland
Under the above plan he'll have matches on
April 18th (club)
May 2nd (club)
May 16th (county)
May 30 (county)
June 6th (club)
June 13th (club)
June 27th (county)
July 11th or 18th (county)
July 28th (club)
August 15th (county)
August 29th (county)
September 12th (county)
Let's say his club reaches the All-Ireland club final
He might be out again on October 3rd
Then October 17th
November 1st
November 8th
November 22nd
December 5th
December 19th
It sounds pretty reasonable to me
Yet it seems no plan other than the hare brained idea to shoehorn the most important competitions the GAA has into spring and early summer is good enough for some
Bizarre stuff
the system you propose means that a Tyrone player getting to an All Ireland final is released for a couple of club championship games in the summer, and then he risks injury by going into a different environment with variable injury risks. He and his club mates just have to "suck it up". This is an amateur sport ( some counties more amateur than others tbf) . This might make sense to a Dublin or Kerry player who regulArly gets to Croke park, as a schoolteacher or gets a career leg up or other perks through his Intercounty involvement , but it doesn't make sense for 90%+ of county players.
All this for an elongated AI series ???
There must be a more level playing field to ensure club and county thrive and this season has shown they can thrive in a split season
I have no idea what your reference to Dublin or Kerry players here is - under the above plan players in all county teams wpould play club championship on the same designated dates
Have a look at the fixture schedule I set out
It's very reasonable - players want to play, don't they?
It sounds like you're proposing to wrap players in cotton wool for the county team
I thought this was what we didn't want?
I don't want to be disrespectful by spelling this out in simple terms but I will.
Dublin and Kerry have dominated football, due partly to a success breeds success phenomenon and partly due to unfair advantages of the current system. Dublin and Kerry players appear to avail of perks not available in most other counties eg cars, career leg-ups , etc .
It is much more attractive to play for Dublin where sacrifices are balanced by perks.
If a county player has to juggle county ,club , career , family , all at the same time it can be a miserable existence with little return. If they only have to play county football for a compact period of time, they can give it their all with no club distractions, and when finished they can enjoy leAding their club mates on their return from the county season .
That is as simple as I can make it.
The current system is broken.
The new system is backed by club players county players and Will significantly reduce costs and increase income through a revitalised county and club game.
All pointers indicate this will be a success but we can't be definite. What we can be definite about is that the current system is unsustainable and must change dramatically for player welfare reasons alone( if you think that means wrapping players in cotton wool, then you don't understand county players imho)
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 02:19:40 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:09:33 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:58:29 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 01:01:39 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 09:11:58 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 08:01:10 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 06:16:21 PM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 29, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
AI is an easily marketable product regardless of the time of year.
April to June is perhaps the worst possible time to market All-Ireland championships
The soccer season is coming to an end, Champions League, Premier League etc., Heineken Cup in rugby,
And World Cups and Euros every second year, which obliterate everything else
It's a very crowded time of year
I remember in '94, Dublin played Kildare, a fixture which had drawn over 60k the previous two years, it was on the same day as Ireland v Italy, it drew 22k, the replay drew around the same
Tradition dies hard
The October NBA finals, with the Lakers and LeBron, were the lowest rated in many years this year
The November US Masters didn't work at all in my view
There's even something off about August All-Irelands, never mind June
September is the time for All-Irelands, October would be better than August
It's the worst time to market?? There have been championship games for years in May/June, they'd be even easier to market if there are games week on week. Again this year showed the benefit of that. For the county player it's a case of enjoy sole focus on the county game, then back to help your local mates, when county season on , fringe club players get a chance to fight for their place when full deck are back. What's not to like?
May/June games are early season games, they're at the start of the summer
Remember Armagh v Down 2011? It clashed with the Champions League final between Barcelona and Manchester United
You don't market against that, you simply get crushed
Even Derry v Down 1994 lost a lot of exposure because it was on the same day as Germany v Ireland when Ireland won 2-0
What you're now proposing is that early season championship games take place in March or early April
And that's an even harder sell because the weather is not as good and key late season soccer matches also tend to take place on those Sundays
It's also better for the clubs to have their players play when they're fresh - before the inter-county championship - as well as giving club players a genuine chance to stake a place for the county team
Look at Ballymun this year - what was the difference? Freshness of key players - McCarthy, Small, Rock, McMahon, who in previous seasons have not performed in the Dublin championship because they were jaded after the county season
😂😂 I didn't even know Ireland played Germany that day. perhaps the US masters was on the same day for all I know. I seem to remember Derry's Celtic Park was a full house anyway 😂. Perhaps we wouldn't have filled Croke Park that day but Tbf even the mighty Dubs can't even half fill Croke park anymore despite the current exposure ( and advantages) they enjoy, and which you propose to continue.
Since you brought up Down, here's a stat for you to consider, since Down beat Dublin in the 1994 AI final, Down have enjoyed home venue for Championship including qualifiers on , I'm guessing , 15 occasions , whilst the Dubs have never had a championship game in their home venue, instead they've had to navigate their way to the national stadium on , I'm guessing over 200 Occasions . I respect Dublin players and management for what they e achieved, but they'll never get the credit they deserve because of the advantages they enjoy under their current system. NFL/NBA have the draft system and even FIFA have financial restrictions, To try to get as level a playing field as possible, yet in the GAA we continue to give Dublin a leg up , whilst lowering the bar at the same time. You couldn't make it up🤦🏻♂️
No Dublin supporter objects to Dublin being taken out of Croke Park, or to away championship venues - Dublin supporters would only love that - going on the road to support your team is what it's all about
Take it up with the Leinster council, which is made up by the rest of Leinster
Nor do Dublin supporters object to other counties getting their houses in order or them being given a leg up in order to do so
The plans to revitalise GAA in Dublin in the 2000s were mainly about participation
Which is a very good thing
The more participation, the healthier all levels of the GAA become
Totally agree with all the above Dublin are merely availing of the unfair advantages the GAA promotes
Representative sport is inherently unfair, we've been over this a million times
The only way to solve that is that is to reorganise the county system into franchises based on equitable populations
But I don't think anybody wants that
Because, as you yourself referenced earlier, identity is king - a GAA version of the Ospreys would not work
No but as you have pointed out participation is key, and splitting Dublin into North side and south side would sort out the identity goal😜
So in summary.
What we have in Sid is an exclusively county GAA follower.
It's probably unfair to suggest this this is the norm for a Dublin resident. Yet when I think of club semifinal and final coverage from Parnell Park, it does seem that in this county, a million chimney pots still isn't enough to fill one stand for a club decider.
So while the crux of his GAA allegiances might not be the norm, they're probably not that far off the mark.
And the fundamental thing that divides this train of thought, with that which dominates allegiances in the vast majority of counties, is how the Association's health is measured.
Sid and his ilk measure it by how often Croke Park is filled to the hilt. "Sure there was almost 80k there for the Leinster final". This kind of thing provides him with the opportunity to savour a sold out event atmosphere in a world class stadium. There's only a handful of these a year in Ireland.
The rest of us though, we measure GAA success by participation; the number of people taking an active involvement in their GAA club.
——
Sid while you're entitled to has this take on the GAA, please don't try to force it upon members of the association from the 30-31 counties who don't have the same outlook on GAA.
Dublin have tried their best to ruin the county championship through back door professionalism. It would be a nice touch if you didn't ruin club football too, in your quest for the GAA world to stand back and bow to your absolute domination.
(Btw a demand to uphold traditions like "3rd summer in September" is an absolute affront from someone who considers the GAA a product)
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:36:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 02:16:17 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 02:07:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 30, 2020, 01:48:47 AM
Quote from: 6th sam on November 30, 2020, 12:55:17 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on November 29, 2020, 10:19:32 PM
Now if you wanted to keep a regular programme of club championship games over a number of months - and keep the inter-county championships where they need to be in the calendar - finishing in September - ie. not completely separate the club and county seasons - this is probably how you'd do it
You provide seven designated club championship matchdays each for hurling and football from April to October - you stop all inter-county action on these matchdays and you introduce a rule centrally that county boards have to hold club championship action on these matchdays
Seven designated matchdays is ample time to finish a club hurling or football championship by October 17th, even if your county team reaches an All-Ireland final
All non-round robin games bar the All-Ireland finals go to extra-time and penalties if necessary
2021
Jan 31 NFL 1
Feb 7 NFL 2/NHL 1
Feb 14 NFL 3/NHL 2
Feb 21 NHL 3
Feb 28 NFL 4
Mar 7 NFL 5/NHL 4
Mar 14 NFL 6/NHL 5
Mar 21 NFL 7/NHL 6
Mar 28 NHL 7
Apr 4 NFL FINAL
Apr 11 NHL FINAL
Apr 18 Club Football Matchday 1
Apr 25 Club Hurling Matchday 1
May 2 Club Football Matchday 2
May 9 Club Hurling Matchday 2
May 16 Football Provincial Prelims
May 23 Hurling Provincial 1/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
May 30 Hurling Provincial 2/Football Provincial Quarter-Finals
Jun 6 Club Football Matchday 3
Jun 9 (Midweek) Club Hurling Matchday 3
Jun 13 Club Football Matchday 4
Jun 20 Hurling Provincial 3/Football Provincial Semi-Finals/Football Qualifiers 1
Jun 27 Hurling Provincial 4/Football Provincial Semi-Finals
Jul 4 Hurling Provincial 5
Jul 11 Football Provincial Finals/Football Qualifiers 2
Jul 18 Hurling Provincial Finals/Football Provincial Finals/ Football Qualifiers 3
Jul 25 Club Hurling Matchday 4
Jul 28 (Midweek) Club Football Matchday 5
August 1 Club Hurling Matchday 5
August 8 All-Ireland Hurling Quarter-Finals /Football Qualifiers 4
August 15 All-Ireland Football Quarter-Finals
August 22 All-Ireland Hurling Semi-Finals
August 29 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 5 All-Ireland Hurling Final (replay September 18)
September 12 All-Ireland Football Final (replay September 19)
September 26 Club Hurling Matchday 6
October 3 Club Football Matchday 6
October 10 Club Hurling Matchday 7
October 17 Club Football Matchday 7
October 24 Provincial Club Prelims
October 31 Provincial Club Q/F or S/F
November 7 Provincial Club Q/F OR S/F
November 14 Provincial Club Finals or S/F
November 21 Provincial Club Finals
December 5 All-Ireland Club Semi-Finals
December 19 All-Ireland Club Finals
Is this a serious post?
Have u any knowledge of the demands on county footballers and managers? Do you honestly think it is going to work by disrupting an AI campaign with club fixtures. The whole thrust of the split season is to protect players who currently are expected to endure a year of misery with little chance of success. It may seem OK for Dublin players who are heavily rewarded by the system and their multiple perks .
The narrative shifts yet again
First it was "we want games", "we want certainty"
Now it seems that's not the case at all
It's mad, people are saying the county managers have too much power - now they don't have enough power?
Players manage to play for different teams in other sports just fine - heard of international windows in soocer? Which involve far more travel than lining out for your club a few times during the summer
As regards "protecting players", let's take a successful county player in Ulster whose county ends up in the prelim of the Ulster championship, let's say they go all the way to the All-Ireland
Under the above plan he'll have matches on
April 18th (club)
May 2nd (club)
May 16th (county)
May 30 (county)
June 6th (club)
June 13th (club)
June 27th (county)
July 11th or 18th (county)
July 28th (club)
August 15th (county)
August 29th (county)
September 12th (county)
Let's say his club reaches the All-Ireland club final
He might be out again on October 3rd
Then October 17th
November 1st
November 8th
November 22nd
December 5th
December 19th
It sounds pretty reasonable to me
Yet it seems no plan other than the hare brained idea to shoehorn the most important competitions the GAA has into spring and early summer is good enough for some
Bizarre stuff
the system you propose means that a Tyrone player getting to an All Ireland final is released for a couple of club championship games in the summer, and then he risks injury by going into a different environment with variable injury risks. He and his club mates just have to "suck it up". This is an amateur sport ( some counties more amateur than others tbf) . This might make sense to a Dublin or Kerry player who regulArly gets to Croke park, as a schoolteacher or gets a career leg up or other perks through his Intercounty involvement , but it doesn't make sense for 90%+ of county players.
All this for an elongated AI series ???
There must be a more level playing field to ensure club and county thrive and this season has shown they can thrive in a split season
I have no idea what your reference to Dublin or Kerry players here is - under the above plan players in all county teams wpould play club championship on the same designated dates
Have a look at the fixture schedule I set out
It's very reasonable - players want to play, don't they?
It sounds like you're proposing to wrap players in cotton wool for the county team
I thought this was what we didn't want?
I don't want to be disrespectful by spelling this out in simple terms but I will.
Dublin and Kerry have dominated football, due partly to a success breeds success phenomenon and partly due to unfair advantages of the current system. Dublin and Kerry players appear to avail of perks not available in most other counties eg cars, career leg-ups , etc .
It is much more attractive to play for Dublin where sacrifices are balanced by perks.
If a county player has to juggle county ,club , career , family , all at the same time it can be a miserable existence with little return. If they only have to play county football for a compact period of time, they can give it their all with no club distractions, and when finished they can enjoy leAding their club mates on their return from the county season .
That is as simple as I can make it.
The current system is broken.
The new system is backed by club players county players and Will significantly reduce costs and increase income through a revitalised county and club game.
All pointers indicate this will be a success but we can't be definite. What we can be definite about is that the current system is unsustainable and must change dramatically for player welfare reasons alone( if you think that means wrapping players in cotton wool, then you don't understand county players imho)
That's just rhetoric
The onus is on other counties to sort themselves out - not on Dublin and Kerry to sort it out for them
Playing a few club matches during championship is no more of an injury risk than training or the Discover Ireland tour of challenge matches
The problem with the narrative you and Wobbler are pushing is that's it's pure simplism
It pays no heed to complex problems, it pays no heed to unintended consequences, it pays no heed to real world problems - which is ironic, given that Wobbler has styled himself as Mr. Real World
But like the hacks at Spiked Online and The Spectator, he's the complete opposite
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 09:06:01 AM
So in summary.
What we have in Sid is an exclusively county GAA follower.
It's probably unfair to suggest this this is the norm for a Dublin resident. Yet when I think of club semifinal and final coverage from Parnell Park, it does seem that in this county, a million chimney pots still isn't enough to fill one stand for a club decider.
So while the crux of his GAA allegiances might not be the norm, they're probably not that far off the mark.
And the fundamental thing that divides this train of thought, with that which dominates allegiances in the vast majority of counties, is how the Association's health is measured.
Sid and his ilk measure it by how often Croke Park is filled to the hilt. "Sure there was almost 80k there for the Leinster final". This kind of thing provides him with the opportunity to savour a sold out event atmosphere in a world class stadium. There's only a handful of these a year in Ireland.
The rest of us though, we measure GAA success by participation; the number of people taking an active involvement in their GAA club.
——
Sid while you're entitled to has this take on the GAA, please don't try to force it upon members of the association from the 30-31 counties who don't have the same outlook on GAA.
Dublin have tried their best to ruin the county championship through back door professionalism. It would be a nice touch if you didn't ruin club football too, in your quest for the GAA world to stand back and bow to your absolute domination.
(Btw a demand to uphold traditions like "3rd summer in September" is an absolute affront from someone who considers the GAA a product)
So in summary of your position: a child like whinge, with no solutions, no ideas, and no effort to debate proposed solutions in good faith
A summing up of your entire forum output, really
I do love the way you're now trying to hop on the participation bandwagon when it was myself who correctly said that participation is the most important measure of how successful the GAA is
Whereas you were unable to see outside the narrow focus of senior club - and you ridiculed the idea of participation
The biggest irony is that your whole mindset, as you verbalised a page or two back, is the biggest danger to clubs up and down the country, the True Gael™ idea that clubs should be nothing more than senior teams and local faction fights
This is anti-participation
It's this attitude that turns so many people off the GAA in the first place
Unfortunately your mindset is far too narrow to understand that there is
not one problem here,
nor one solution
There are many problems, they are interlinked and they are complex, with no perfect solution
What happens at the top influences what happens at the bottom, and vice versa
You simply don't understand that, so you dismiss what is too complex for you - and introduce false complexity where it is not warranted
Sid.
That synopsis of my personality.
You don't actually read what's posted. Do you? I mean it's surely not possible to gauge that summary of me from this thread. Come on, it's not. You've made up a new character completely. Let's call him Wobblerer or something like that.
By the way, good job on finally getting the Spectator and Spiked Online into this thread in your second last post. I wasn't quite sure how you'd destroy this thread with inane and utterly predictable political drivel, but it looks like the process is underway. Clap, clap.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 07:45:49 PM
Sid.
That synopsis of my personality.
You don't actually read what's posted. Do you? I mean it's surely not possible to gauge that summary of me from this thread. Come on, it's not. You've made up a new character completely. Let's call him Wobblerer or something like that.
By the way, good job on finally getting the Spectator and Spiked Online into this thread in your second last post. I wasn't quite sure how you'd destroy this thread with inane and utterly predictable political drivel, but it looks like the process is underway. Clap, clap.
Project, project
You get fierce annoyed when when somebody sees your views for what they are - gobshitery
You're very like Angelo and Seaney in that regard
All you're short of is a "do your own research"
You're the absolute ruination of this board sid. An insufferable ****.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 30, 2020, 09:06:01 AM
So in summary.
What we have in Sid is an exclusively county GAA follower.
It's probably unfair to suggest this this is the norm for a Dublin resident. Yet when I think of club semifinal and final coverage from Parnell Park, it does seem that in this county, a million chimney pots still isn't enough to fill one stand for a club decider.
So while the crux of his GAA allegiances might not be the norm, they're probably not that far off the mark.
And the fundamental thing that divides this train of thought, with that which dominates allegiances in the vast majority of counties, is how the Association's health is measured.
Sid and his ilk measure it by how often Croke Park is filled to the hilt. "Sure there was almost 80k there for the Leinster final". This kind of thing provides him with the opportunity to savour a sold out event atmosphere in a world class stadium. There's only a handful of these a year in Ireland.
The rest of us though, we measure GAA success by participation; the number of people taking an active involvement in their GAA club.
——
Sid while you're entitled to has this take on the GAA, please don't try to force it upon members of the association from the 30-31 counties who don't have the same outlook on GAA.
Dublin have tried their best to ruin the county championship through back door professionalism. It would be a nice touch if you didn't ruin club football too, in your quest for the GAA world to stand back and bow to your absolute domination.
(Btw a demand to uphold traditions like "3rd summer in September" is an absolute affront from someone who considers the GAA a product)
Good man wobbler. Really letting Sid get under your skin so you abandon reason in your fixtures debate and instead revert to a Dub-bashing rant, full of a mix of nonsense and untruths.
Hound you're right. I got deviated and unnecessary there.
But at the same time, what Sid has basically arrived at is that there is almost nothing wrong with the current fixtures schedule, and if there's anything wrong at all it's that the pesky club championships aren't wrapped up earlier.
Of course he's an arch contrarian to commonsense, which is the primary reason for this. But i do sense that it's a sentiment that would be shared with many a Dublin fan. But with nobody from another county.
Decision on 2021 deferred
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/1129/1181173-gaa-presses-pause-on-2021-calendar-decision/
Quote from: trileacman on December 01, 2020, 07:14:43 AM
You're the absolute ruination of this board sid. An insufferable ****.
Ah right
I discuss the topic in good faith, putting forward two
actual thought plans and, uniquely for contributors to the topic, dealing with it in a holistic manner
You chip with a one line post calling me a ****
And you say
I'm the problem with this forum?
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 08:13:32 AM
Hound you're right. I got deviated and unnecessary there.
But at the same time, what Sid has basically arrived at is that there is almost nothing wrong with the current fixtures schedule, and if there's anything wrong at all it's that the pesky club championships aren't wrapped up earlier.
Of course he's an arch contrarian to commonsense, which is the primary reason for this. But i do sense that it's a sentiment that would be shared with many a Dublin fan. But with nobody from another county.
So by your own criteria of debate, the inter-county championships are "pesky"
Sure, in that case, why are you not proposing abandoning them, so? Given that it's so clearly what you want?
Only one of has put forward actual thought out plans - in fact I've put forward two
Real common sense is examining different angles, and trying to come to the best solution for everybody
Only one of us has done that - and it isn't you, given that you can only think through the narrow focus of senior club - and senior club
championship at that - which, again, and it is startling that this has to be explained to you - does very much
not make up 98% of GAA fixtures
Here's some numbers Sid. Please digest. Don't interpret. Just digest.
We will concentrate on football for now.
This isn't to ignore hurling. But as there are many more football teams than hurling teams, then it's fair to say that any fixture scheduling that can solve a problem for football, will likely do same for hurling.
——
SENIOR COUNTY
In its fullest form, with:
- Round robin pre season provincials.
- Kilkenny and London competing in the leagues.
- Those 2 plus NY in the championship,
- A full back door system.
- The super 8s.
The maximum number of competitive fixtures in a county football season are:
Pre-season Provincials (including semis and finals): 60
National League (including semi and finals): 128
Provincials: 30
Qualifiers: 26
Super 8s: 12
AI Semis and Final: 3
Final total: 259 games.
That though is for the entire season. And It's not overly relevant to the discussion apart from to help you digest the 98% figure a little better.
The figure that actually does matter is this one.
There is an outright maximum need for 17 fixtures in one round of any competition involving county teams.
——
98%
Allow me to continue my condescending lesson for a moment before returning to the purpose of this post.
Down is around a middle of the road county in terms of size, population, and number of clubs. Every year in senior adult football alone, the county hosts:
372 league matches (divisions 1-4)
12-18 league playoff matches (depending on agreed format)
70-75 championship matches between SFC, IFC and JFC (JFC structure changes more often)
That's over 450 games, before allowing for the myriad of pre-season tournaments equally as valued as the McKenna Cup.
So In one medium sized county, almost twice as many football fixtures take place, as in the entire county football programme.
——
SENIOR CLUB
Now let's just clarify two things here. You can rebuke them if you like, but then you really would be heading off on a tangent that doesn't exist.
1. The reason why split seasons are being introduced, is because players don't wish to be pulled in two directions by club and county.
2. When not playing county ball, those players can be found lining out at junior, intermediate and senior club levels.
The reason why I'm reiterating these points is because any proposed schedule then has to include two underlying principles.
1. Regardless of if it's one split season, or a series of split seasons, each must have room to conclude its allocated programme for that split in full, before the baton is returned. Or else players will be pulled in two again, and therefore it does not solve the problems we face.
2. In club football, there can be no differentiation between junior adult teams and senior adult teams, for as long as it is a club's "first" team then their county players will be made available to them when the split(s) is for club football.
Numbers:
There is generally assumed to be 2,200 odd GAA clubs in Ireland.
Let's be clean daft in your favour here, and assume that only 50% of them play adult football. We both know it's closer to 90% but here, no matter.
That means there are 1,100 clubs taking their places in round 1 of their county's JFC, IFC or SFC.
Let's assume (in your favour) that there are perfectly even numbers of clubs, divisible by 4, which means there's no need for pesky preliminary rounds.
Let's also assume (in your favour) that every county board in Ireland has had a Road to Damascus moment and binned their round robin club championships in favour of straight knockout.
Even with all these things trying their best to help you out Sid, we still need 550 fixtures to be completed to get through R1 of the club championships.
——
TO CONCLUDE
So in early season scheduling ramifications, when water tables are high and evenings are short, on any given weekend is it more prudent to plan for a minimum of 550 club fixtures, or a maximum 17 county fixtures?
That's logistics in action. Sid, you don't understand logistics. You just don't get the principles.
It's also unfair to point out that every last club will demand the opportunity for at least one league game before playing their first championship match. That means at least 550 matches have to happen before R1. So when you try to frontload club football, you are frontloading thousands of matches.
Last and probably not very important but I'm in a condescending mood. If you were to combine into a total the 550 adult club first team championship matches, and 17 county championship matches, you will find that club matches equate to 97%. I would apologise for misleading you with 98%, except we both know there's a lot more than 1,100 clubs competing in adult football in Ireland.
Over and out.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 08:13:32 AM
Hound you're right. I got deviated and unnecessary there.
But at the same time, what Sid has basically arrived at is that there is almost nothing wrong with the current fixtures schedule, and if there's anything wrong at all it's that the pesky club championships aren't wrapped up earlier.
Of course he's an arch contrarian to commonsense, which is the primary reason for this. But i do sense that it's a sentiment that would be shared with many a Dublin fan. But with nobody from another county.
As someone who attends pretty much every club game my club's senior football team plays, and a few home 2nd team, hurling and ladies football club games, I do wonder is the whole "the poor club game" stuff overstated.
Certainly in Dublin, a dual county, and our footballers are inevitable involved until September, the club game runs pretty smoothly (the only exception being the U21 club championship which is usually a shambles, but tbh that's a relatively minor quibble in the whole scheme of things). In my view, most of the time there are problems with clubs games, it is not the GAA's fault, it is not the fault of the intercounty game, it falls nearly 100% on the fault of the relevant county board. So this thing about "fixing" the calendar is hard to understand for me, when the calendar works fine in Dublin, where the pressure is higher than most counties to fit everything in given the large number of clubs, the large number of dual clubs and the regular success (and long season) of the intercounty footballers. Something needs "fixing" but in many counties, but I don't see it as the calendar.
Many people on here actually believe the myth that the reason Dublin punch well below their weight at minor level (despite all the development officers training the primary school children ::) )and then usually come good at U20 level, is something to do with money. We send them off to this supreme coaching paradise where we throw loads of money at them, they have to do no work or no study and they become professional gaelic footballers. In reality, the reason they improve is because they get immersed in the best club game in the country.
Some people have a quibble that part of the round robin series of the Dublin club championship takes place in April and the rest in September. But the clubs have a choice - full knockout and start in September. Or have a round robin element with more games, but means we need to get a couple of games in in April. Maybe not ideal, but not huge deal either.
But the best part of the Dublin club game is that the fixtures for the full season are released at the end of January/early February. Every league game laid out (15 games for most teams) and the championship format and dates laid out. Players (and fans) can then schedule their plans/holidays etc knowing these are fixed. League games continue throughout the best weather of the summer. No county players for many of those games, but that just means that 16 Division One teams are closer in ability. Super competitive games, amazing intensity and just great entertainment. And what a way to improve a young player.
I'm not saying your ideas are necessarily wrong wobbler. And they could improve things. But the opening premise that the club game is a disaster, nobody cares about the club player, etc., in my opinion and from my perspective, is just not correct.
Quote from: Hound on December 01, 2020, 01:26:10 PM
But the opening premise that the club game is a disaster, nobody cares about the club player, etc., in my opinion and from my perspective, is just not correct.
Nail on head.
I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).
But here's why a split season is needed:
1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.
2. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin) and they will drop full series of league and championship fixtures immediately after county games. So you will have the situation where a county player will be asked to line out for his club just a couple of days after a county championship match. Player welfare just isn't considered.
3. While discussing player welfare, my personal observations is that county players outwardly want to play club football at all times, but inwardly, do not need the distraction when the county championship is heating up. They can't say this out loud, but it's easy read from body language. Yet here have been for decades, forcing them to jump between county suit and club suit, week at a time and now month at a time.
Almost all of the above is primarily the fault of the clubs; we have the only sports in the world where players are browbeaten to continue playing at all potential lower standards, when a higher standard is available to them. And it's the clubs that drive this. Which is why I couldn't support the CPA, who seemed to be formed to militantly ram home that clubs need county players, rather than to find a balance.
But at the same time, a lack of rational thinking about county championship timings has helped create this militant beast.
1. Why can't the first round of the provincials all be played on the same day?
2. Why can't the first round of the AI qualifiers all be played on the same day, one week after no.1?
3. Why can't second round of provincials be played on the same day as no.2?
4. And why can't round 2 of the AI qualifiers take place one week after no.3?
At first glance this just doesn't make any sense. Dragging county seasons out by unnecessary months, when players could be playing club instead. 16 counties could finish their season within 3 weeks, and clubs would be happy. So it seems like no sense.
But the reason for it happening like this is inherently simple: so that the AI final can be played in September. And if there's only 16 teams left half way through May, nobody can find a reason to prolong the competition to September.
Hence moving the AI final date is the key to all this.
Do that, and split seasons make sense.
And most of the club v county problems are eliminated in one go.
Mayo in general have a nice balance between club and county players too might I add. There's the championships, which all players are available for. Eleven league games (five or six which are starred) and competitions that are totally without county players. Initially I was against the starred games, but needs must and it enables more players get game time too. If Mayo get knocked out early, then the starred league games become irrelevant.
Quote from: Hound on December 01, 2020, 01:26:10 PM
Many people on here actually believe the myth that the reason Dublin punch well below their weight at minor level (despite all the development officers training the primary school children ::) )and then usually come good at U20 level, is something to do with money. We send them off to this supreme coaching paradise where we throw loads of money at them, they have to do no work or no study and they become professional gaelic footballers. In reality, the reason they improve is because they get immersed in the best club game in the country.
Minor is used as a development grade, great if you win trophies not the end of the world if you don't. U20 as U21 was before it is the grade whereby Dublin instill that winning mentality into their players. The physicality, strength and conditioning of the players compared to when they were minors county players is like chalk and cheese.
And when do the All-Ireland Club Finals happen under this plan, Wobbler?
You see, there's a little thing called money
You can poo poo it all you like, but it makes the world go round, and it makes the GAA go round
Downsizing the inter-county championships in terms of importance and visibility, shoehorning them into the first half of the year, as you want, will result in a significant decrease in gate receipts
And that hits everybody
This is the basic fact you fail to understand
You can be as "condescending" as you like, but if you condescend from a position of refusal to face up to basic truths - as is the case with you, that's just being a blowhard
The problem with dividing people into categories in order to fight a culture war, as you so openly do, is that the GAA depends on the very people you so love to deride to bring in the money for clubs and development, for the GAA as a whole
Also, none of your arguments are about participation, they're about senior club championship and senior club championship only
And what's more, there are no flesh on the bones of your plan - only rhetoric
And still, you trot out the 98% number, which is nowhere near correct
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).
But here's why a split season is needed:
1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.
So, because
some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?
Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?
If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can
Quote from: Hound on December 01, 2020, 01:26:10 PM
Some people have a quibble that part of the round robin series of the Dublin club championship takes place in April and the rest in September. But the clubs have a choice - full knockout and start in September. Or have a round robin element with more games, but means we need to get a couple of games in in April. Maybe not ideal, but not huge deal either.
Mid April is when things really start firming up
It is indeed no big deal to fit in two rounds of club championship each in hurling and football between the league and championship
Neither should it be a big deal to fit in a round or two of club championship after the provincial quarter-finals on designated dates
Same after the provincial championships have concluded
That takes you up to five club championship match days on designated dates - in my sample plan, the Dublin SFC would go ahead on April 18th, May 2nd, June 6th, June 13th and July 28th
Depending on format, that means you arrive at either a last eight or a last four by then
Say if the Dublin SFC was revamped to 24 teams instead of 16 - with four groups of six - like in the Galway Hurling Championship, you could use all the all the five available dates for round robin fixtures to whittle it down to eight teams by July 28th
If it stayed at sixteen teams, you could use four of the five available matchdays to whittle it down the last four by July 28
Then you play off the last four or last eight from September 26th on
What is a ludicrous situation is waiting around for five months to play a third round robin game when you're already out, as currently exists
Quote from: sid waddell on December 01, 2020, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).
But here's why a split season is needed:
1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.
So, because some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?
Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?
If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can
No Sid, not quite.
There has been a growing discord between club and county scenes, since the back door.
This is largely fuelled by clubs. But does this mean it should be ignored?
And in more recent times it is clearly fuelled too by county players. Think of subs for teams like Kildare, Armagh, Roscommon, Cork, who invest entire summers without game time but know they won't get past a semi final. Think of any player from that 50% of counties who have absolutely no chance of winning an AI and their goal is a provincial final. But once knocked out of their province, they're dragged in two for up to a month between a club that might be going somewhere, and a county that isn't. Should we just ignore these players?
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 01, 2020, 03:25:03 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
I really don't have premise Hound. Like yourself, I find very little wrong with the club structures in my county (Down).
But here's why a split season is needed:
1. Not all counties are as well "ordered" as Down (and Dublin). In other counties you will have clubs steadfastly refusing to fulfil fixtures without county players. The result is longwinded league programmes with very little ball being played in the summer months. This is an appalling situation, and is surely the greatest cause of player dropout.
So, because some counties cant get their house in order as regards club fixtures, the showpiece competitions of the GAA - the inter-county championships, are the ones which should suffer as a result?
Have you any idea how crazy that sounds?
If Dublin can get their house in order in terms of fixtures, anybody can
No Sid, not quite.
There has been a growing discord between club and county scenes, since the back door.
This is largely fuelled by clubs. But does this mean it should be ignored?
And in more recent times it is clearly fuelled too by county players. Think of subs for teams like Kildare, Armagh, Roscommon, Cork, who invest entire summers without game time but know they won't get past a semi final. Think of any player from that 50% of counties who have absolutely no chance of winning an AI and their goal is a provincial final. But once knocked out of their province, they're dragged in two for up to a month between a club that might be going somewhere, and a county that isn't. Should we just ignore these players?
Sorry, if Dublin can get their fixtures in order, anybody can
I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place
Where's your calendar?
Like, actual dates, week to week, each competition, spelling out exactly what will happen and when
I've run the numbers on your plan and it necessitates the All-Ireland club finals running up to December 12th at the earliest
You claimed everything would be finished by the start of November
I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place
Lol at you for taking pride in completing an exercise a teacher might give to a 10 year old.
—-
Jan-Mar:
1. Intercounty National Leagues.
2. No club fixtures.
April-Jun:
1. Intercouhty championship.
2. Club leagues begins whenever suits, without county players. County players return as their team is knocked out (which would be 24 counties by mid-May).
Jul: Club leagues. Championship not permitted until late in month, to allow AI finalists a few weeks celebration/bedding back in.
Aug-Sep: Club county championships
Oct: Club provincial championships
Nov: Club AI championships
——-
None of this is my idea. It's all in docs released by the GAA in recent months.
And it's nowhere near as complicated to read as a 40 year old doing primary school problem solving.
Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?
Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 04:52:01 PM
I'm the only poster here who has spelled out concrete dates on a calendar for when club championship action would take place
Lol at you for taking pride in completing an exercise a teacher might give to a 10 year old.
—-
Jan-Mar:
1. Intercounty National Leagues.
2. No club fixtures.
April-Jun:
1. Intercouhty championship.
2. Club leagues begins whenever suits, without county players. County players return as their team is knocked out (which would be 24 counties by mid-May).
Jul: Club leagues. Championship not permitted until late in month, to allow AI finalists a few weeks celebration/bedding back in.
Aug-Sep: Club county championships
Oct: Club provincial championships
Nov: Club AI championships
——-
None of this is my idea. It's all in docs released by the GAA in recent months.
And it's nowhere near as complicated to read as a 40 year old doing primary school problem solving.
These are not concrete dates
Calling me a 10 year old now, you really don't take kindly at all to being challenged, do you
Quote from: sid waddell on December 01, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?
Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?
Because you'll have been able to play 7-9 league games and a couple of championship matches, in sequence, without interruption. And you still get to play football all summer.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 05:00:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 01, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Another thing - if 16 teams are out of the inter-county championship by the end of April, 24 by the first weekend in May, why on earth would you bother playing county football at all?
Given that all it would ever be is a toil in the muck and the rain of winter, followed by a quick in and out in the Spring?
Because you'll have been able to play 7-9 league games and a couple of championship matches, in sequence, without interruption. And you still get to play football all summer.
That's not an answer to the question - in fact it's another reason for players
not to play county football
24 county teams would be out by the start of May
That means inter-county football becomes overwhelmingly a winter pursuit and not a summer one
The reason the back door was brought in was because 16 teams got one match in hard ground - they wanted more
Why would you bother if you get 0?
And inter-county managers are not going to demand any less of players - if they're out by mid-April they will demand them to show up for training from at least September onwards
None of this is thought through
It's pure Brexit thinking
It's altogether really quite strange Sid then, given all of your theories on why county players can only become disaffected by the split season move, that the GPA are fundamentally behind all of this happening. That's the same GPA who as a principle, give not one f**k about anything other than county players.
—-
County players getting 0, 1 or 10 games in summertime isn't important in the slightest and you're really clutching at straws now.
The reasons why it's important to play club football in summer is
1. Because the sheer volume of fixtures requires longer evenings and firmer ground.
2. Because every single county player also plays club football, which means that every footballer in Ireland gets to play summer football.
The reason why it's important to play county football in summer is:
1. Sid likes to watch Dublin in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings.
So, if the All-Ireland football final is on June 27th, work back
Two weeks back to the All-Ireland semi-finals on June 13th
Super 8s Round 3 on June 6th
A gap week will be necessary, so two weeks back to May 23rd for Super 8 Round 2
May 16th is Super 8 Round 1
May 9th sees Qualifiers Round 4
Provincial finals on May 2nd along with Qualifying Round 3
Provincial Semi-finals on April 25th, actually no - they have to go back to April 18th because beaten provincial semi-finalists come in at qualifying Round 2, which would be April 18th
Provincial Quarter-Finals would be pushed back to April 4th to accommodate Qualifiers Round 1 on April 11th
Provincial Prelims on March 28th
NFL final on March 21st, no wait, a gap week is required between league and championship, so back to March 14th for the NFL final
So when do you start the NFL, January 10th? Because, you know, postponements
But what abut the McKenna Cup? Right back into the pre-Christmas period
So if you're, say, Tyrone, you could have:
Four McKenna Cup games before Christmas
McKenna Cup Final January 3rd
NFL games:
January 10
January 17
January 24
February 7
February 14
February 21
February 28
You qualify for the league final, March 14th
You're in the Ulster preliminary round, March 28th
You win that, but lose to Donegal in the quarter-final on April 4th
Into the qualifiers, Round 1 on April 11th
Round 2 on April 18th
Round 3 on May 2nd
Round 4 on May 9th
Super 8s Round 1 on May 16th
Super 8s Round 2 on May 23rd, you're now playing seven weeks out of eight, it's your 20th game since mid-December, you've had a week off at Christmas and three free weekends since then, and the vast majority of the football you've played has been in the muck and the shit
And all while being expected to hold down a job
There are Premier League clubs who play less football than that
Player welfare how are ya
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
It's altogether really quite strange Sid then, given all of your theories on why county players can only become disaffected by the split season move, that the GPA are fundamentally behind all of this happening. That's the same GPA who as a principle, give not one f**k about anything other than county players.
—-
County players getting 0, 1 or 10 games in summertime isn't important in the slightest and you're really clutching at straws now.
The reasons why it's important to play club football in summer is
1. Because the sheer volume of fixtures requires longer evenings and firmer ground.
2. Because every single county player also plays club football, which means that every footballer in Ireland gets to play summer football.
The reason why it's important to play county football in summer is:
1. Sid likes to watch Dublin in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings.
The vast majority of senior club matches are unaffected by the timing of the inter-county championship
At least if your county board is any way competent
Sid does indeed like to watch Dublin playing in Croke Park on balmy summer evenings - and elsewhere if the fixture makers would take Dublin out of Croke Park a bit more
I also like going to Castlebar, and Thurles, and Killarney on weekends when Dublin are not playing
And so do a lot of other people - but if you want to push those people away from GAA matches, don't complain when the money is not shared around
These matches really matter to the GAA in terms of gate receipts
Somebody has to pay the bills
That's the real world
So, if you're expected to play 10 or even 11 matches between March 28th and June 27th - in front of attendances which have reduced considerably because of i) the more frequent nature of the matches, ii) because the weather in April and May is generally cooler and windier, and iii) because there are more counter attractions in terms of television sport and indeed other GAA fixtures if more are happening on the same weekend because the championship is more condensed...
What happens then to the NFL, pushed even further back into January than it already is?
It becomes a joke competition, with scrap teams and reduced attendances
And you can forget any half decent attendances at pre-Christmas McKenna Cup matches
But hey, maybe increased attendances at club league matches might make up for this
Or not, as the case may be
Dublin Football League Division 1 results 2019
Notice anything about the dates of these matches?
Answer for those too slow to get it: they were not affected by the timing of the inter-county championship
https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions/results/136273
Here's the Dublin Hurling League Divsion 1 fixtures 2019 for good measure
https://www.dublingaa.ie/competitions/results/136336
There are 13 weeks between January and March. You need to play 8 to win your league. 8 games in 13 weeks is not a big demand. There'll be an allowance week or two in there for bad weather.
There are 13 weeks between April and June. You will play between 7 and 10 matches to win the championship. The only to 10 is to be in a Leinster / Ulster prelim, then lose your provincial final, then bounce back to make an AI final. That's possible so has to be accounted for. We need to find another week, giving a maximum 10 games in 14 weeks, which isn't harsh.
Solutions aren't hard to find either. Either 1. scrape a July week back into intercounty, or 2. Do the provincial draws right after the league proper, and exclude the league semi finalists from getting a.l preliminary tie; thereby allowing the preliminaries to start in last week of March.
Stop looking for lemons when there's none on the table
Also Sid just a wee reminder.
When you bring up March weather affecting attendances at county championship, it is pure conjecture. As 6th Sam pointed out a while ago, 62,000 people find their way to Celtic Park every week, rain hail or snow.
When I bring up March weather affecting club matches being played, this is entirely factual. Until the water tables have risen, any sustained period of rain in March or April will wipe out all but the best surfaces.
Could those 2 bucks be given a private thread at this stage?
Looks like the "split season" is flavour of the month among most GAA people so will likely be adopted by Congress.
Any thoughts on the new inter Co.Senior Football Championship systems proposed by the Fixture Review Group?
Quote from: Rossfan on December 01, 2020, 07:16:55 PM
Could those 2 bucks be given a private thread at this stage?
Looks like the "split season" is flavour of the month among most GAA people so will likely be adopted by Congress.
Any thoughts on the new inter Co.Senior Football Championship systems proposed by the Fixture Review Group?
Agreed I'm done with that now.
—-
Re restructuring, if getting rid of the natural provincial structures, I see no merit in rebuilding them in a different way.
Something more conducive to a) competitive competitions and b) knockout excitement would be:
1. Have a league system as we do now. Two up, two down. No playoffs, no finals.
2. For the championship, after the league is over, every team is seeded according to their finishing position, for 3 weeks of Championship Qualifiers
- in week 1, teams 17-32 meet according to seed. So top of D3 plays bottom of D4. Second in D3 plays second last in D4.
- the losers, they go home. While if a lower ranked team beats a higher ranked team, they earn their seed.
- in week 2 the exact same exercise is repeated, except the D2 teams play those who've qualified. Top of D2 takes the lowest ranking remaining team. Second in D2 gets the second lowest. And so on.
- we now have 16 teams left.
- in week 3, rinse and repeat, except the D1 teams play the remaining qualifiers, again by seed order.
- we now have 8 teams left.
3. Then the Championship proper:
- Super 8s.
- Then semis
- Then final.
A d4 team would need 8 games to win an AI. A D1 team would need 6. How many games you need is derived from recent form, not from the province you reside.
Other key advantages:
- Finishing strongly in the league would take on all-time importance. League games would be fought out like championship games.
- the spotlight would fall firmly upon D3 and D4 for one week, and D2 and D3 teams the next. For once, they wouldn't be competing with D1 sides for exposure, attendances, coverage.
- if a D4 side or D3 side makes it through the qualifiers round 3, they should actually be battle hardened to meet a D1 side.
- the sides most likely to make the Super 8s (D1 sides) are spared two run outs of smashing cannot fodder.
- the competitive season length for a county player would vary between 8 and 15 games, with 13 games the expected outcome for the champions most years. This would fit neatly into a 22 week window and actually afford the champion players a couple of clear weeks rest ahead of club commitments.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 07:08:05 PM
Also Sid just a wee reminder.
When you bring up March weather affecting attendances at county championship, it is pure conjecture. As 6th Sam pointed out a while ago, 62,000 people find their way to Celtic Park every week, rain hail or snow.
When I bring up March weather affecting club matches being played, this is entirely factual. Until the water tables have risen, any sustained period of rain in March or April will wipe out all but the best surfaces.
To compare Celtic supporters to the GAA inter-county match going public is one of the daftest things I've ever read on this board
Celtic have 50k season ticket holders
Although frequently over the last six or seven years, large swathes of them haven't even bothered to turn up for matches for which their attendance is already paid for - league games have attracted less than 30k
Celtic's average league attendance in 2012-13, a season in which they actually beat the Barcelona or Messi, Xavi and Iniesta, was 33k
So even the Celtic support, actual season ticket holders at that, has become very picky about what they'll attend
Now, if that's the case, just think how the GAA inter-county match going public, which is very much a floating public - as floating as the Green Party's vote in many places, will behave when matches are taken out of their natural habitat of late May and early June and into the cold of late March and early April
Let's say, in non-Covid world, the Leinster football final between Dublin and Meath is down for May 2nd - as it would be under your plan
Manchester United are likely to be playing Liverpool that day, a game which is likely to be very important in the destination of the Premier League title
A Dublin v Meath Leinster final held in it's natural habitat of a sunny afternoon in July will already be struggling for attendance because of Dublin's dominance
Throw it in on May 2nd, clashing with Manchester United v Liverpool, and you can knock a further 25% minimum off an attendance which would already be down at the best of times
Throw in the real world event of Covid and the after effects of Covid on top all this for 2022, when people will be struggling economically - going to matches costs money you know - especially if you're bringing a family - and the lunacy of the plan becomes ever more obvious
Gate receipts matter, and never more so than now
And this floating GAA public is not just a Dublin thing - it's a nationwide thing - in fact Dublin is more reliable than any other county in bringing a hardcore support out to go to matches
Fans in Munster and Connacht and parts of Ulster are far more fickle
If you're happy to cut 25% off the GAA's total gate receipts for a year - and that's a conservative estimate, and assumes a successful vaccination programme so that attendances will be possible again from 2022 on, well, that's your right, but at least be honest about what it entails - financial destruction
I note again you refer to rounds of club championship fixtures in March - can you tell who is proposing this, or are you imagining things again?
What I proposed entails the club championships starting
later than they already start
Water tables at the vast majority of inter-county grounds are not lower than anywhere else, by the way, but sure let's shoehorn the NFL into January and February with no breathing space, I'm sure there will be no postponements
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2020, 07:01:53 PM
There are 13 weeks between January and March. You need to play 8 to win your league. 8 games in 13 weeks is not a big demand. There'll be an allowance week or two in there for bad weather.
There are 13 weeks between April and June. You will play between 7 and 10 matches to win the championship. The only to 10 is to be in a Leinster / Ulster prelim, then lose your provincial final, then bounce back to make an AI final. That's possible so has to be accounted for. We need to find another week, giving a maximum 10 games in 14 weeks, which isn't harsh.
Solutions aren't hard to find either. Either 1. scrape a July week back into intercounty, or 2. Do the provincial draws right after the league proper, and exclude the league semi finalists from getting a.l preliminary tie; thereby allowing the preliminaries to start in last week of March.
Stop looking for lemons when there's none on the table
11 matches to win an All-Ireland is quite possible as I demonstrated above
Win your provincial prelim, lose the provincial quarter final, four qualifier matches, three Super 8 matches, All-Ireland semis and final
8 NFL matches
5 McKenna Cup matches
That's 24 inter-county matches in six and half months
Now if somebody is looking for lemons, start with yourself
There is no issue if the GAA were prepared to be brave. All players are club players first and released to county, with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship. If a county player doesn't play for his club in the game preceding the county teams next match he is deemed ineligible for that county match. All county finals to be played by second Sunday of October or county board faces a hefty fine. Quit bowing down to the elitism and ego's of county managers.
Quote from: pbat on December 01, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
There is no issue if the GAA were prepared to be brave. All players are club players first and released to county, with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship. If a county player doesn't play for his club in the game preceding the county teams next match he is deemed ineligible for that county match. All county finals to be played by second Sunday of October or county board faces a hefty fine. Quit bowing down to the elitism and ego's of county managers.
Such a rule would be ridiculous in terms of natural justice and unenforceable, because there could be any number of perfectly legitimate reasons for such an occurrence - a minor injury, an illness, an exam, a wedding or a christening, a death
But by cutting out replays for all but All-Ireland semi-finals and finals, and by sticking rigidly to a fixtures programme with no exceptions, you can certainly play club championship matches during the inter-county championship season
You create designated club championship windows during the summer which are common to
all counties - that means inter-county players know where they stand, club players know where they stand, and inter-county managers know where they stand
If there are no exceptions, players have no choice but to play or let down their club
It is no different a scenario to where players play for different teams at different times in other sports, ie. international windows in soccer and rugby
But this can only be administered on a nationwide basis, it needs national co-ordination so that individual counties do not take the piss - it is the decentralised nature of GAA fixture making, and the different approaches across counties, which create a non-level playing field
Like, if one county pulls club championship matches because their inter-county team is still involved, their next opponents are going to do the same thing
That's what must be avoided
And if that means certain people within a county should lose their power, then good
Quote from: pbat on December 01, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
with no club games 14 days before the county play in the championship.
There is no reason why a county player can't play games on two successive weekends.
WhateverPbat and Sid but back in the real world it looks like the GAA is going for the "split" season of primarily County to mid July and exclusively Club from there.