Are the rules always right?

[trileacman]

There is an interesting case blowing up on the Tyrone GAA thread about ineligible players in the county championship and I think it should be heard by more than just those who follow Tyrone club football.

Dromore defeated Ardboe convincingly in the county championship last sunday on a scoreline of Dromore 1-15 Ardboe 0-9. In the final few minutes they introduced Ruari Sludden, a county minor who was recently sent off in a minor championship match for two yellow cards, the second time this year that he has been sent off so he must incur a 2 week suspension at this level.

Category I
Being ordered off on foot of a second Cautionable
Infraction.
Penalty:
(i) Fixed Penalty: Debarment from playing for
the remainder of the Game, to include any
extra-time;
(ii) Fixed Penalty on Repeat Infraction: 2 weeks
Suspension in the same Code and at the same
Level.

Allegedly Dromore contacted a county board official to find out if he was legible for senior championship and we told he was. However Ardboe have now challenged the result on the grounds that his suspension stands in senior football as well. The rules state that football at underage level is categorised as being juvenile, under 16, and below, therefore his suspension applied to senior and minor level. The punishment for fielding an illegal player is expulsion form the competition (according to the Ulster herald).

I was just wondering if anyone has seen of a case similar to this. There is alot of claims on the Tyrone thread about this happening before in hurling and other examples. If the case is as I said, should Dromore be expelled from the county championship.

http://www.ulsterherald.com/2012/09/06/tyrone-gaa-to-investigate-dromore-player-eligibility/

[Eamonnca1]

I was once asked to make a call on a player who was straight red carded (hence automatically misses his next game) from a junior adult game and then an opposing team objected to him playing in a high school game.  I was adamant that the rule says it in black and white, the suspension only applies "at that level" so he would have been ineligible to play in his next adult junior game, but was eligible to play in his next high school game which was at a different level (as well as being a completely different competition).  Nobody else on my committee bought it, they gave me the "this is the way it's always been done" defence, and I double checked with the next committee above and they also said that the suspension applies at all levels because "this is the way it's always been done".  This was a blatant contradiction of what the rules actually were as written, but since everyone else was interpreting it differently then there wasn't much I could do only uphold the suspension.

You can interpret the rules as literally as you like, but at the end of the day what counts is how the boys higher up the appeals ladder are going to interpret them. Sad but true.

[skeog]

good to see trillick so concerned about dromore lol

[saffron sam2]

Good thread.

If there are only two levels, i.e. Senior and Juvenile, then there is a case to answer and Dromore could be thrown out.

Not an expert, but in adult competition, I would have thought that Senior, Intermediate, Junior, under-21 and Minor are all different levels. Therefore, IMO Dromore should be fine.

Personally, if I was from Ardboe, I'd be hittin a powerful reddener that this is even being pursued by the club.

[nrico2006]

Good thread.

If there are only two levels, i.e. Senior and Juvenile, then there is a case to answer and Dromore could be thrown out.

Not an expert, but in adult competition, I would have thought that Senior, Intermediate, Junior, under-21 and Minor are all different levels. Therefore, IMO Dromore should be fine.

Personally, if I was from Ardboe, I'd be hittin a powerful reddener that this is even being pursued by the club.

Senior and Minor are two different levels.  Dromore should be fine.

[DuffleKing]

Obviously I don't know if they are but if Ardboe are pursuing this they should be ashamed of themselves.

[AZOffaly]

Actually it is a good question. Obviously a simple way of making it clear would be to have a straightforward glossary which defines a level. I'm not sure if such a thing exists.

However, I will say that I know in Tipp the Senior County Board presides over Minor Competitions, and the Bord na nÓg presides over up to Under 16 (Juvenile). If levels are designated in that manner then everything up to Under 16 is one level, Minor, Under21, Junior, Intermediate and Senior is another level, and then you have County Minor, Under 21 and Senior.

My understanding of it was that if you were sent off for a straight red, you are suspended in the Grade you were sent off in, but not the 'Level'.

So, Minor = Minor Suspension; Junior = Junior Suspension, Inter County Minor = Inter County Minor Suspension, County Senior = County Senior Suspension.

It's a great question though, and as I said a clear definition of what constitutes a grade, or level, would make it a very easily answerable one.

[Wee Roddy]

There is a bad history on the field between the two clubs in recent times. They have had a little scrap or two, including one in he semi final of a championship which was far worse than last years league final which made national headlines because there was f*** all else on that day!
Ardboe club are not getting the rub of the green in terms of match day officials decisions and also at county board level in recent times. They (unjustifiably or not) feel persecuted at the minute so i wouldn't necessarily be too down on them. They are a good honest club.

[brokencrossbar1]

They may be a good honest club Roddy but you take your defeat on the chin in these circumstances and move on in my opinion.  If it had been a tight contest were this lad was the winning or losing of the game then they have every right to challenge it but given the circumstances they should look inwards and try to chip the chip off the shoulder.

BTW I think Dromore should be fine here assuming that the underage structure in Tyrone are run by a seperate body and not the central games organisations within the county.

[LeoMc]

From the official guide:

7.5 Suspensions
Interpretation of Terms
(a) For the purpose of interpretation of Suspensions and
in Rule generally:
(1) "Level" shall mean the representative level at
which the Suspension concerned was incurred
e.g. Inter-Provincial, Inter-County, Club, Third-
Level, Schools etc. Where a Team of one Level is
playing a Game or Competition at another Level,
e.g. Third-Level College v. County, a Level-specific
Suspension incurred by a Player shall apply at
the Level of the Team he was playing with on the
occasion of the Infraction.

[johnneycool]

There is an interesting case blowing up on the Tyrone GAA thread about ineligible players in the county championship and I think it should be heard by more than just those who follow Tyrone club football.

Dromore defeated Ardboe convincingly in the county championship last sunday on a scoreline of Dromore 1-15 Ardboe 0-9. In the final few minutes they introduced Ruari Sludden, a county minor who was recently sent off in a minor championship match for two yellow cards, the second time this year that he has been sent off so he must incur a 2 week suspension at this level.

Category I
Being ordered off on foot of a second Cautionable
Infraction.
Penalty:
(i) Fixed Penalty: Debarment from playing for
the remainder of the Game, to include any
extra-time;
(ii) Fixed Penalty on Repeat Infraction: 2 weeks
Suspension in the same Code and at the same
Level.

Allegedly Dromore contacted a county board official to find out if he was legible for senior championship and we told he was. However Ardboe have now challenged the result on the grounds that his suspension stands in senior football as well. The rules state that football at underage level is categorised as being juvenile, under 16, and below, therefore his suspension applied to senior and minor level. The punishment for fielding an illegal player is expulsion form the competition (according to the Ulster herald).

I was just wondering if anyone has seen of a case similar to this. There is alot of claims on the Tyrone thread about this happening before in hurling and other examples. If the case is as I said, should Dromore be expelled from the county championship.

http://www.ulsterherald.com/2012/09/06/tyrone-gaa-to-investigate-dromore-player-eligibility/

I was caught with this last year as I'd a 17 year old who'd been sent off playing minor, he got a straight red, but his case hadn't been heard as yet. I'd heard about this level ruling and had asked the club chairman to look into it and he called me back saying he'd spoken to someone or other in the county office in Castlewellan and they'd said he was fine to play.
The lad played in the game which we'd won handy when the next night the chairman got an email from the county disciplinary committee (which the person he'd spoken to was on) telling us that the lad wasn't to play another game, juvenile or otherwise until his disciplinary hearing.
The chairman rang the office the next day and got speaking to the person who'd given him the go ahead a few days previous and he was told that nothing would come of it unless the other team lodged a complaint, which they didn't as the probably hadn't a clue about it.

If people in disciplinary committee's don't know the rules then how is anyone else?

Also if juvenile is up to U-16 then that means a youngster could possibly get sent off playing U-16 and then play minor the next night depending on the severity of the original offence which I know has a bearing if an intercounty player gets sent off can then sometimes still play for their club.

[trileacman]

The backdrop to this is that Ardboe refused to play extra time in a minor game a couple of weeks ago because it was too dark (according to their mentors). They are on the verge of being fcuked out of the minor championship over the head of it.

May explain why they are digging their heels in here.

I think they are "fucked out of it" and are bringing up this issue as way of sticking it to the county board.

[brokencrossbar1]

Look into the Anton McArdle case last year.  He was sent off for Burren against us in the Ulster Final.  He got a six month ban for playing in an u21 game a few weeks after when the club had been advised he could play.  It was upheld by the Ulster Council but if I recall rightly he went to Croke Park and had it over turned. 

[johnneycool]

Look into the Anton McArdle case last year.  He was sent off for Burren against us in the Ulster Final.  He got a six month ban for playing in an u21 game a few weeks after when the club had been advised he could play.  It was upheld by the Ulster Council but if I recall rightly he went to Croke Park and had it over turned.

So not only do Down county board not know the rules, neither does the ulster council?

[brokencrossbar1]

Look into the Anton McArdle case last year.  He was sent off for Burren against us in the Ulster Final.  He got a six month ban for playing in an u21 game a few weeks after when the club had been advised he could play.  It was upheld by the Ulster Council but if I recall rightly he went to Croke Park and had it over turned.

So not only do Down county board not know the rules, neither does the ulster council?

The irony is that I actually think that a member of the county board advised Burren that he could play and then he was banned.