Child Abuse on the streets

[johnnycool]

A quick google search could also have found you images of murals and flags "celebrating" the YCV and Ulster Young Militants

Maybe your Google isn't working correctly and didn't show any such images when you searched for them. You should contact Google to report the problem.

There's no doubt that indoctrination of the young is a powerful tool as used by the Nazi's and many before them. The Churches cottoned on as well with their Sunday schools, holy communions and the likes.

As for YCV, Na Fianna Éireann or whatever, haters are going to hate, just need marginalised within their communities but when you hear auld dolls cheering on wee lads running up the street with petrol bombs then you know we've a problem and it isn't the kids.

[Evil Genius]

A quick google search could also have found you images of murals and flags "celebrating" the YCV and Ulster Young Militants

Maybe your Google isn't working correctly and didn't show any such images when you searched for them. You should contact Google to report the problem.

I hold no brief for the YCV, any more than I have for the filth who were egging on children in those recent riots.

But are you really equating some little-regarded artless scrawl on the Donegall Road, which no-one in authority honours, with a mural which is a world famous tourist attraction, not least because it is celebrated in Republican mythology to this day, eg:
"A child in a gas mask with no filter doing what he could do when his family, home and community came under seige."
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/paddy-coyle-battle-bogside-boy-18631609

Or as it might have been described: "A child who was far too young to know any better, or express any choice, being given a gas mask and a petrol bomb and encouraged to engage in the midst of a murderous war (aka a 'child soldier')"

Now that's what I call "Whataboutery"...

And while on the topic of "grooming", have you any comment on the other picture of child grooming I included in my original post? You know, when Republican activists dressed little children up in what was clearly paramilitary uniform, for a public procession through the streets.

Or maybe you thought they were Boy Scouts?

[Snapchap]

Its not whataboutery in the slightest. Your contention is that the celebration of the involvement of children seems to be more of a thing in nationalism. I'm simply pointing out the nonsense in that suggestion. There are mulitiple YCV and  Ulster Young Militants murals, for instance, that are much more than scrawls. And the young lad in the gas mask was at least acting off his own bat. He wasn't recruited to do it in the way the group celebrated by the mural at "Ulster Freedom Corner" are.

And if you want to talk about children being dressed in military gear then no problem. Happy to say I think its wrong for those children in the photo you refer to, but no more wrong than it is for the British Army to be advertising itself to and recruiting 15 year old children.

[Evil Genius]

Its not whataboutery in the slightest. Your contention is that the celebration of the involvement of children seems to be more of a thing in nationalism. I'm simply pointing out the nonsense in that suggestion. There are mulitiple YCV and  Ulster Young Militants murals, for instance, that are much more than scrawls. And the young lad in the gas mask was at least acting off his own bat. He wasn't recruited to do it in the way the group celebrated by the mural at "Ulster Freedom Corner" are.

And if you want to talk about children being dressed in military gear then no problem. Happy to say I think its wrong for those children in the photo you refer to, but no more wrong than it is for the British Army to be advertising itself to and recruiting 15 year old children.

"Acting off his own bat", is it?
Did he make his own gas mask from a feature on 'Blue Peter' then, or siphoned the petrol from the tank of his Noddy car?

Do you believe that 13 y.o.'s are capable of giving informed consent? Don't you think that adults on the scene should have encouraged him to go home instead of encouraging him to go out in a situation where he might have been killed?

What it comes down to is simple. I condemn equally all child abuse like this, whether it be in "Loyalist" areas or Republican areas.

Do you defend the adults eg who equipped that boy to go out in the Bogside in the midst of a riot, or those who dressed even younger children in paramilitary garb to join in a public procession through the streets?

[Snapchap]

Its not whataboutery in the slightest. Your contention is that the celebration of the involvement of children seems to be more of a thing in nationalism. I'm simply pointing out the nonsense in that suggestion. There are mulitiple YCV and  Ulster Young Militants murals, for instance, that are much more than scrawls. And the young lad in the gas mask was at least acting off his own bat. He wasn't recruited to do it in the way the group celebrated by the mural at "Ulster Freedom Corner" are.

And if you want to talk about children being dressed in military gear then no problem. Happy to say I think its wrong for those children in the photo you refer to, but no more wrong than it is for the British Army to be advertising itself to and recruiting 15 year old children.

"Acting off his own bat", is it?
Did he make his own gas mask from a feature on 'Blue Peter' then, or siphoned the petrol from the tank of his Noddy car?

Do you believe that 13 y.o.'s are capable of giving informed consent? Don't you think that adults on the scene should have encouraged him to go home instead of encouraging him to go out in a situation where he might have been killed?

What it comes down to is simple. I condemn equally all child abuse like this, whether it be in "Loyalist" areas or Republican areas.

Do you defend the adults eg who equipped that boy to go out in the Bogside in the midst of a riot, or those who dressed even younger children in paramilitary garb to join in a public procession through the streets?

I don't defend anyone who puts a weapon in a childs hands, regardless of who does it. The difference is, I'm not trying to sectarianise the issue by implying one community is more culpable of such a thing than the other, or celebrates such things more than the other. If you wanted to be taken seriously in the debate you raised, then sadly you have, as other have pointed out already, undermined your attempt by selecting images from only one community. Reeks of sectarianism.

[Eamonnca1]

Is the purpose of this thread to find a solution? Or is it whataboutery? Just wondering before I proceed...

Classic EG whataboutery.

Two more people who use the term without understanding what it means...

For information, "Whataboutery" is where someone seeks to excuse his own wrongdoing by reference to that of another eg: "You can't blame me for stealing £5, when him over there stole £10"

I am not excusing anyone in this abomination, they're all equally to blame for being child abusers.

What I am doing is highlighting double standards, whereby one set of people who encourage children to throw petrol bombs at the police eg in Sandy Row are (quite rightly) condemned, while others who encouraged it eg in the Bogside get to "celebrate" it with a tourist attraction. 

So it is whataboutery then. I don't think I'll bother participating in this thread if you're not interested in anything constructive.

[Evil Genius]

I don't defend anyone who puts a weapon in a childs hands, regardless of who does it. The difference is, I'm not trying to sectarianise the issue by implying one community is more culpable of such a thing than the other, or celebrates such things more than the other. If you wanted to be taken seriously in the debate you raised, then sadly you have, as other have pointed out already, undermined your attempt by selecting images from only one community. Reeks of sectarianism.

I'm not "sectarianising" anything. I'm wondering whether there isn't a distinction to be made between one side, where the only people who celebrate child abuse are the child abusers themselves; and the other side, where mainstream Republicans seem unconcerned by the celebration of child abuse.

Or who do you think was behind this demonstration, which amongst other things, commemorated an 18 y.o. bomber, Patricia Black, who blew herself up on a mission in England? (Or do you imagine that that was her first involvement after reaching her majority?)

[Evil Genius]

Is the purpose of this thread to find a solution? Or is it whataboutery? Just wondering before I proceed...

Classic EG whataboutery.

Two more people who use the term without understanding what it means...

For information, "Whataboutery" is where someone seeks to excuse his own wrongdoing by reference to that of another eg: "You can't blame me for stealing £5, when him over there stole £10"

I am not excusing anyone in this abomination, they're all equally to blame for being child abusers.

What I am doing is highlighting double standards, whereby one set of people who encourage children to throw petrol bombs at the police eg in Sandy Row are (quite rightly) condemned, while others who encouraged it eg in the Bogside get to "celebrate" it with a tourist attraction. 

So it is whataboutery then. I don't think I'll bother participating in this thread if you're not interested in anything constructive.

Once more, Whataboutery is not the same as (pointing out) Hypocrisy.

If you can't - or won't - understand the difference, then I can't help you.

[Snapchap]

I don't defend anyone who puts a weapon in a childs hands, regardless of who does it. The difference is, I'm not trying to sectarianise the issue by implying one community is more culpable of such a thing than the other, or celebrates such things more than the other. If you wanted to be taken seriously in the debate you raised, then sadly you have, as other have pointed out already, undermined your attempt by selecting images from only one community. Reeks of sectarianism.

I'm not "sectarianising" anything. I'm wondering whether there isn't a distinction to be made between one side, where the only people who celebrate child abuse are the child abusers themselves; and the other side, where mainstream Republicans seem unconcerned by the celebration of child abuse.

Or who do you think was behind this demonstration, which amongst other things, commemorated an 18 y.o. bomber, Patricia Black, who blew herself up on a mission in England? (Or do you imagine that that was her first involvement after reaching her majority?)

So the crowds of adult loyalists cheering on a bunch of young boys running down a road with petol bombs were not, in fact, celebrating what the boys were doing, because "only" nationalism would do such a thing?

When you want to claim you are not trying to sectarianise the subject, then probably best not to immediately follow your denial with an admission that you are drawing a "distinction" between the two communities over it. You've been repeatedly called out over your motivations with this thread. Sometimes it's best to just accept that maybe everyone else is right and you are wrong. Take your sectarian bulls**t elsewhere.

[charlieTully]

Watch any 12th July parades. Wee boys at the front of loyalist blood and thunder bands twirling them sticks. Culture. Fanning the flames of hate for generations to come.

[general_lee]

Watch any 12th July parades. Wee boys at the front of loyalist blood and thunder bands twirling them sticks. Culture. Fanning the flames of hate for generations to come.

Spot on. Unionist culture is seemingly one big heavy obsession with militarism, jingoism, British nationalism, colonialism and triumphalism; often dressed up as commemoration and remembrance.

[Milltown Row2]

UVF and UDA have been grooming kids for years, I worked on the Shankill for 4 years in a training college, kids came from mainly the Shankill road, Mount Gilbert being the main school that fed into our place at the time then the Boys Model...

The vast majority of those kids were brought up and groomed towards one of these groupings, I was there during one of the feuds, homes were burnt out and families had to leave certain areas, some of the kids (16 year olds) couldn't come in because their family was at risk, or if they past a certain point on the road.

My wife's cousin, who was 15 at the time got caught up in a fight with some lad in Rathcoole (that's were he was from) afterwards the local UDA came to the door and said the lad had to pay off his 'debt' by joining the local UDA.

I grew up during the height of the troubles and during the crazy times of the hunger strikes and riots that followed nightly, never was anyone in my family asked or made to do anything by any organisations in my area, we had a pretty big family, plenty of boys between both sets of cousins that lived in the one street, nor did I hear of kids being 'groomed' or 'made' to join up. I knew lads that found their way into it, but they were from big republican families that it was always going to happen to them with their background and beliefs.

These are only my views and experiences, pictures of kids in these 'parades' or murals are replicated all over these place, on both sides

[brokencrossbar1]

To echo what MR2 said there, I too grew up in the height of the Troubles, in the closest, tightest Republican area of them all. I had many friends who joined the Ra over the years in a variety of different roles but all from staunch Republicans families. There was little or no indoctrination towards anyone, though we were taught a view of history and witnessed a history that is still denied in many circles. Never, ever were any of my friends ever told/forced/encouraged/whatever to join the fight.

We were encouraged to join the GAA, learn our language, sing traditional Irish songs and play traditional Irish music, read about the history of the island, not just from 1921 or 1690 onwards, we lived on a very segregated area in that the population was 99% from an RC background but the man who fixed our washing machines was Protestant, the family who had a large haulage company and worked alongside my father and other hauliers was a Protestant, there is still to this day a very vibrant Church of Ireland church and congregation behind my home place who are a core of the community and the Graveyard itself is historic and has been the subject to numerous documentaries and events because of its historical significance. In my experience sectarianism did not exist.

I cannot comment too much on other areas but I have lived in Belfast on and off for the last 25 years. I see where the abuse arises that EG speaks of. It no doubt happens on all sides. I do believe though in impoverished loyalist areas there is still a creation of the 'green monster' and that is a control mechanism for the crime gangs and shows the difference in the confidence or lack thereof, of the you g people from the different sides. Brollys comments to Gregory Campbell were right. The nationalist young people have a confidence that wasn't there. That came from the peace process and a general acceptance and understanding that there is nothing wrong with playing Gaelic or hurling, or speaking Irish, or singing Sean Nós (although I would question the last!). The young people in 'our' community have a cultural construct to build themselves around and this gives them focus. Any 'groooming' of you g Republicans to riot is frowned upon and not accepted amongst the vast majority. The minority is getting smaller too.

A lot of what happened over the last few weeks can also be allied to a bunch of bored teenagers going out of their heads with nothing to do. It is fizzling out already. There will be a surge round the 12th but not at the same level. But I would agree that any one who is arrested for rioting who is under 16 should see their parents also questioned and sanctioned, and that goes for every single one who is arrested. It's time to break the inter generational shit that has held this place back for years

[Armagh18]

To echo what MR2 said there, I too grew up in the height of the Troubles, in the closest, tightest Republican area of them all. I had many friends who joined the Ra over the years in a variety of different roles but all from staunch Republicans families. There was little or no indoctrination towards anyone, though we were taught a view of history and witnessed a history that is still denied in many circles. Never, ever were any of my friends ever told/forced/encouraged/whatever to join the fight.

We were encouraged to join the GAA, learn our language, sing traditional Irish songs and play traditional Irish music, read about the history of the island, not just from 1921 or 1690 onwards, we lived on a very segregated area in that the population was 99% from an RC background but the man who fixed our washing machines was Protestant, the family who had a large haulage company and worked alongside my father and other hauliers was a Protestant, there is still to this day a very vibrant Church of Ireland church and congregation behind my home place who are a core of the community and the Graveyard itself is historic and has been the subject to numerous documentaries and events because of its historical significance. In my experience sectarianism did not exist.

I cannot comment too much on other areas but I have lived in Belfast on and off for the last 25 years. I see where the abuse arises that EG speaks of. It no doubt happens on all sides. I do believe though in impoverished loyalist areas there is still a creation of the 'green monster' and that is a control mechanism for the crime gangs and shows the difference in the confidence or lack thereof, of the you g people from the different sides. Brollys comments to Gregory Campbell were right. The nationalist young people have a confidence that wasn't there. That came from the peace process and a general acceptance and understanding that there is nothing wrong with playing Gaelic or hurling, or speaking Irish, or singing Sean Nós (although I would question the last!). The young people in 'our' community have a cultural construct to build themselves around and this gives them focus. Any 'groooming' of you g Republicans to riot is frowned upon and not accepted amongst the vast majority. The minority is getting smaller too.

A lot of what happened over the last few weeks can also be allied to a bunch of bored teenagers going out of their heads with nothing to do. It is fizzling out already. There will be a surge round the 12th but not at the same level. But I would agree that any one who is arrested for rioting who is under 16 should see their parents also questioned and sanctioned, and that goes for every single one who is arrested. It's time to break the inter generational shit that has held this place back for years

Excellent post!

[Rossfan]

+1.
The Nationalist Community in the North is now full of confidence and positivity (a few places excepted) and is "for" a lot of things.
Meanwhile Political Unionism is still banging negative drums and is "agin" everything and forever "angry" per media headlines.