11-Plus Proposal

[ONeill]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

[Milltown Row2]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

What age is acceptable to get tutored at??

[Minder]

I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.

[Take Your Points]

I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.

That certainly is an improvement!

Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?

[johnneycool]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

What age is acceptable to get tutored at??

I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.

In saying that Grammar schools are lowering their standards to an extent and a lot are now doing the English boards GCSE papers as they're perceived to be easier that the Northern Ireland ones. Still need to keep bums on seats with a reducing population.

As for Primary schools preparing children for the transfer test, some in out local area were and some weren't. It really was up to the school even if the education board was railing against the schools being involved in the preparation of children for this uncontrolled transfer test!

[Take Your Points]

The old transfer test had so many past papers that it was possible not to spend as much time teaching the children for the test as simply doing the past papers.  Children would sit one or two papers per week in school taking up a morning each time and then spend two or more days going back over the papers and correcting their answers.  They were being taught how to do the papers and to learn off the answers. 

The current papers are based on literacy and maths and science has been removed.  Children do not have access to the past papers for the PPTC/GLA tests and so the teachers have to use the specification to teach the topics and practice them.  Some will rely on fake past papers as near approximations to the GLA test.  The GLA test has been customised to ensure that all of the topics are those that are listed in the N.Ireland Curriculum (NIC) as provided by CCEA. 

If the school is already teaching maths and literacy to high standards then tutoring is not necessary given the commonality between the specification and the NIC.  A further aspect is the level of testing being used in virtually every primary school in the country from P3 to P7.  These schools are using other GLA products called Progress in English and Progress in Maths and are paying considerable sums to buy these products and have the papers marked by GLA, many have now moved to the on-line versions of these tests to provide the results almost immediately.  Parents have been receiving the results of these test using standardised marking between 69 and 139 based on the age cohort for the UK.  This gives parents an indication of the position of their children in the cohort.  These tests used by the schools are not customised to the NIC but are approximations.  A growing number of schools are following the secondary level schools by buying and using Cognitive Ability Tests from GLA and these provide in-depth analysis of the intelligence levels of children, parents probably never get to see the results as they are predictive of future achievement.

In addition, CCEA still requires assessment of children in KS1 and KS2 in literacy, maths and iCT which have placed a major burden on children and teachers particularly in P4 and P7 and are of little interest or value to teachers or parents.

So, working towards the transfer test is only a small part of the huge testing regime used in primary schools already including in many of those who reject the transfer test as placing a burden on the children that is not acceptable.

[Minder]

I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.

That certainly is an improvement!

Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?

No I moved her because the school had went to shit, the teachers seemed unable or unwilling to give them a basic grounding in Maths. She was coming home with Maths homework that she wasn't taught during the day and hadn't a clue how to do. So she will need that transfer test or not.

And a shite inspection finding become the summer put the tin hat on it.

[Link]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

What age is acceptable to get tutored at??

I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.

In saying that Grammar schools are lowering their standards to an extent and a lot are now doing the English boards GCSE papers as they're perceived to be easier that the Northern Ireland ones. Still need to keep bums on seats with a reducing population.

As for Primary schools preparing children for the transfer test, some in out local area were and some weren't. It really was up to the school even if the education board was railing against the schools being involved in the preparation of children for this uncontrolled transfer test!

Very similar to the students who get spoon fed during GCSEs / A-Levels (especially subjects with high coursework %) then struggle to progress independently at university.

[Take Your Points]

I'm against tutoring myself as from experiences of those in the teaching profession in Grammar schools tell me that they can spot a child that has been tutored for the transfer test quite quickly as once the support of the tutor ends after this test the child invariably struggles in the Grammar school.

That says a lot about the teachers concerned and the level of support they are willing to provide for a child.  The GCSE and A level results of the same teachers are always boosted by the parents having their children tutored for these exams.  Probably providing tutoring themselves at immense cost to the parents.

It was true with the old test that it could be passed by training, not as much now.  However, as you stated the grammar schools are filling up with children who would not have achieved a place before the major demographic downturn over the last 10 years.  These are the children being spotted by these grammar school teachers. Fewer children in many areas means that the grammar school takes children with wider and wider ranges of ability.  There are very few true grammar schools in the country.  Just look at the grades that they accept. 40% of children can now get grammar school places, it was intended to be 25% when CCEA took over the testing for the transfer test.

Tutoring harms no child, it is the pressure put on that child by its parents and their failure to accept the child's ability especially where ability and social standing are linked by parents.  Every parent wants to believe that all of their geese are swans.  It does no harm to provide additional help to a child where a need has been identified especially when it is not being provided in primary schools as the Education Authority has withdrawn much of its help for children in these schools and where secondary schools do not have the budgets to pay for additional help.

[Take Your Points]

I have just moved my wee girl schools, she is starting P6. She has learnt more in the last week at her new school than she did in her previous 5 yrs at the other school.

That certainly is an improvement!

Did you move her to ensure success in the transfer test or for other reasons?

No I moved her because the school had went to shit, the teachers seemed unable or unwilling to give them a basic grounding in Maths. She was coming home with Maths homework that she wasn't taught during the day and hadn't a clue how to do. So she will need that transfer test or not.

And a shite inspection finding become the summer put the tin hat on it.

Good for you.  It takes some courage for parents to make such a move.  I hope it works out for your wee girl.

[gallsman]

Does this make a difference? From what I gather many primary schools are full felt transfer test practice anyway, especially from Sept-Nov.

Generally from before Easter schools are doing past papers... Most kids that do the test are being tutored...

Seriously? I'd rather rub my balls in broken glass than get my child tutored at that age.

I remembered getting 11+ past-papers at school when I was two years from taking my exams.

Yup, I remember every Thursday from basically the beginning of P6 we did a practice test. Lads who weren't doing the 11+ sat there and twiddled their thumbs.

[Take Your Points]

I am old enough to have done the original 11 plus test which was a pure intelligence test.  We had text books to practice the test problems.  Nothing that was in the test could be used in future education or life, we learned to decipher codes, develop sequences, etc.  No knowledge or transferable skills.

Every Friday morning we were taken to the new canteen in Greenpark and completed a past paper.  The teacher marked it over the weekend and then on Monday morning he called out the results and were we lined out around the walls of the classroom in rank order.  Then he took out the leather strap and slapped everyone.  I was fortunate enough to get good scores but routinely got 3 slaps on each hand given with some venom because I should have got 6 marks higher.  This went on through P6 and until the test in November of P7.

However, when the test was over the teacher had a personality change and we lay back for the remainder of P7.  A version of this occurs in most P7 classes that prepare for the test as payback for hard work before it, ask any parent about the use of the time after the test.

[Tony Baloney]

A lot of what has been said above is garbage as piles of schools were doing no transfer preparation and the standard of teaching was substandard to meet the requirements of the transfer test. Tutoring is in many cases the only means of getting close to the required standard to pass the test. Teaching in general is a results based industry and schools aren't churning out educationally rounded individuals with a wide knowledge base, as the focus is on a narrow criteria within a narrow subject set. It's the way the system is set up and is no fault of schools, teachers, pupils or parents.

[No wides]

A lot of what has been said above is garbage as piles of schools were doing no transfer preparation and the standard of teaching was substandard to meet the requirements of the transfer test. Tutoring is in many cases the only means of getting close to the required standard to pass the test. Teaching in general is a results based industry and schools aren't churning out educationally rounded individuals with a wide knowledge base, as the focus is on a narrow criteria within a narrow subject set. It's the way the system is set up and is no fault of schools, teachers, pupils or parents.

If parents spent more time helping their children they wouldn't need the tutoring, a lot of parents think that teaching kids is the sole responsibility of the school.

[Maiden1]

It has never been as unfair as it is now.  Some schools give test papers every day where as others stick to the rules and only give out 1 or 2 past papers.  It's then up to the parents, the parents with the most money who can afford the best tutors.  Even if you hear about a good tutor they are booked up years in advance.

I happened to be in the kitchen of a house last year and the persons daughter had a tutor in.  I heard the tutor read out a multiple choice question, something like what is 40% of 2000.  The wee girl looked up at the tutor and said 600 and the tutor nodded her head.  800?  Very good, next question...

I felt like saying to the girls mum are you actually paying someone 25 pounds an hour for that.  How does someone qualify to become a tutor if that is the standard of some of the teaching.