Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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LeoMc

Quote from: Redhand Santa on February 27, 2017, 10:58:55 AM
With most things these days or any kind of change I do think the reaction has been over the top. It won't finish club football or lead to professionalism etc. I said before I do think a split in the season for county players is needed and maybe this is a move towards that. Judging by an earlier draft schedule for next year (I'm not sure how official it was) 30 counties will finish up by the end of July. Does that not lead to enough time for county players to be available for the most important club games?

Club football and scheduling has to be looked at and this definitely adds to the urgency needed to look at it. In Tyrone (county I have most knowledge off) there is 15 club league games followed by relegation/promotion play offs and a straight knockout championship. There is 3 divisions of 16 with division one teams entering senior championship, division 2 intermediate and division 3 junior. County players are available for 10 of the league games plus the play offs and championships. What usually happens is the first 7 or so games with the county players get played by late June/early July and the 5 starred games are used quick enough. This then leads to weeks of inactivity waiting for Tyrone to finish up. Then its a struggle to get the remaining 3 league games played plus the championship and league play off games.

The new system could make it even harder as there will be less room in the calendar in April/May/June for league games. So county boards should be thinking about what would work best.

If it was up to me I'd change the structures in Tyrone. I'd have a league that runs from April to end of July which doesn't determine the championship you play in and the dates are set in stone and played whether county players are free or not. I'd do the leagues on a regional basis split by senior/intermediate so the games are local games with less travelling and play them on a Friday night to suit the club players. A lot of derbies and great prep for the championship with it being run off before it.

Then from start of August have the championship which would have a league element. There's 16 teams at senior level so split them into 2 groups of 8 (some kind of seeding to avoid all strong teams in one group - maybe based on earlier regional leagues). 7 games with county players available for them all. Played until 3rd week in September. Top 4 teams make the quarter finals to be played off in October. Bottom teams relegated to next division and second from bottom involved in a play off (same week quarter finals played).

County players would be available for all games that determine your championship status and its less games to fit in with them than the current requirement. There'd be regular football for club players from April to July with lots of local derbies acting as great prep for the championship and a good stand alone comp. And the benefit of Friday night games to avoid taking up the weekends.

The one big potential flaw in my system is if Tyrone got to the All Ireland final in 3rd week of August. But surely for most counties thinking outside the box a little could lead to a far better structure and less reliance on county fixtures to determine games. And most counties wont get to the All Ireland final so will have a minimum of 3 months to get games played with county players.
Why ruin a perfectly good championship by turning it into a league and the league into a series of meaningless friendlies?

Norf Tyrone

How many committee people were asked by their Club their pref prior to the vote so that the County knew which way to cast.

I was asked re Super 8s but no other motion.

Owen Roe O'Neills GAC, Leckpatrick, Tyrone

Redhand Santa

Quote from: LeoMc on February 27, 2017, 01:36:15 PM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on February 27, 2017, 10:58:55 AM
With most things these days or any kind of change I do think the reaction has been over the top. It won't finish club football or lead to professionalism etc. I said before I do think a split in the season for county players is needed and maybe this is a move towards that. Judging by an earlier draft schedule for next year (I'm not sure how official it was) 30 counties will finish up by the end of July. Does that not lead to enough time for county players to be available for the most important club games?

Club football and scheduling has to be looked at and this definitely adds to the urgency needed to look at it. In Tyrone (county I have most knowledge off) there is 15 club league games followed by relegation/promotion play offs and a straight knockout championship. There is 3 divisions of 16 with division one teams entering senior championship, division 2 intermediate and division 3 junior. County players are available for 10 of the league games plus the play offs and championships. What usually happens is the first 7 or so games with the county players get played by late June/early July and the 5 starred games are used quick enough. This then leads to weeks of inactivity waiting for Tyrone to finish up. Then its a struggle to get the remaining 3 league games played plus the championship and league play off games.

The new system could make it even harder as there will be less room in the calendar in April/May/June for league games. So county boards should be thinking about what would work best.

If it was up to me I'd change the structures in Tyrone. I'd have a league that runs from April to end of July which doesn't determine the championship you play in and the dates are set in stone and played whether county players are free or not. I'd do the leagues on a regional basis split by senior/intermediate so the games are local games with less travelling and play them on a Friday night to suit the club players. A lot of derbies and great prep for the championship with it being run off before it.

Then from start of August have the championship which would have a league element. There's 16 teams at senior level so split them into 2 groups of 8 (some kind of seeding to avoid all strong teams in one group - maybe based on earlier regional leagues). 7 games with county players available for them all. Played until 3rd week in September. Top 4 teams make the quarter finals to be played off in October. Bottom teams relegated to next division and second from bottom involved in a play off (same week quarter finals played).

County players would be available for all games that determine your championship status and its less games to fit in with them than the current requirement. There'd be regular football for club players from April to July with lots of local derbies acting as great prep for the championship and a good stand alone comp. And the benefit of Friday night games to avoid taking up the weekends.

The one big potential flaw in my system is if Tyrone got to the All Ireland final in 3rd week of August. But surely for most counties thinking outside the box a little could lead to a far better structure and less reliance on county fixtures to determine games. And most counties wont get to the All Ireland final so will have a minimum of 3 months to get games played with county players.
Why ruin a perfectly good championship by turning it into a league and the league into a series of meaningless friendlies?

1) To give the players regular games through the season.
2) To allow club players to know when their games will be played.
3) To allow county players to play in every match that determines what championship a club is in which seems fair.
4) To reduce the number of games county players have to play for their clubs whilst not disadvantaging their clubs
5) To ensure the club season finishes earlier than currently.

I'm not sure the above system would ruin the championship. Games could be spread out across the weekend to give maximum exposure. The risk would be that clubs wouldn't take the initial league serious. But if its played independently with local matches and before the championship surely you would get buy in from the clubs. Currently there is plenty of meaningless games in the league especially towards the end after the championship is completed.

omagh_gael

One of the stupidest elements of our current system is that only one provincial game is played on each weekend. Absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to run off these competitions. For example, the Ulster should be ran off as follows:

Weekend One: Preliminary round

Weekend two: Saturday Evening QF1
                      Sunday QF2

Weekend three: Saturday Evening QF3
                      Sunday QF4

Weekend four: Sunday SF1 (QF1 v QF2)
                     
Weekend five: Sunday SF2 (QF3 v QF4)

Weekend Seven: Sunday Ulster Final

The 2016 Ulster championship started on the 15th May and finished on the 17th July. The above shaves two weeks off this that could be used to shorten the county calendar or to free up two full weekends of guaranteed club football across Ulster.
 

Esmarelda

Omagh gael, you know that that is what has been voted through or are you just applauding that it has been passed?

From the Bunker

Quote from: sam03/05 on February 26, 2017, 03:56:21 PM
Surely these proposals will actually be good for club football
Yes there will be a lot of county games in July / August
But that's no different from now. ( with most of the weaker counties knocked out by that stage anyway) 
The fact that the season is over the last week in August
Allows the club season to effectively be played in September / October / November
Surely that is a much better alternative than what's in place now.

Also the Dubs will have to play two championship games away from Croke Park
Which will add a lot of interesting games. The likes of Kerry won't have a cake walk to the
Final every year oi they had to go away to Ballybofey or somewhere.
The only thing that's missing is atwo tiered structure with the second tier  playing final at All Ire final.
Overall I think it's actually a better deal for club players
As the club championships will take place in sept/ Oct/ Dec no matter what


This line made me smile! Do you honestly think that they (the GAA Hierarchy)will have Dublin playing outside Croker in the Championship? You are really naive if you think that. Think about it? This has more games in Croker written all over it!

Esmarelda

Quote from: From the Bunker on February 27, 2017, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on February 26, 2017, 03:56:21 PM
Surely these proposals will actually be good for club football
Yes there will be a lot of county games in July / August
But that's no different from now. ( with most of the weaker counties knocked out by that stage anyway) 
The fact that the season is over the last week in August
Allows the club season to effectively be played in September / October / November
Surely that is a much better alternative than what's in place now.

Also the Dubs will have to play two championship games away from Croke Park
Which will add a lot of interesting games. The likes of Kerry won't have a cake walk to the
Final every year oi they had to go away to Ballybofey or somewhere.
The only thing that's missing is atwo tiered structure with the second tier  playing final at All Ire final.
Overall I think it's actually a better deal for club players
As the club championships will take place in sept/ Oct/ Dec no matter what


This line made me smile! Do you honestly think that they (the GAA Hierarchy)will have Dublin playing outside Croker in the Championship? You are really naive if you think that. Think about it? This has more games in Croker written all over it!
While some cynicism is expected in GAA land, do you genuinely think that Dublin won't play their third game in the group outside of Croke Park, after playing the first two there?

They played outside Croker last year and will do so again this year so it's already happening.

sid waddell

Quote from: omagh_gael on February 27, 2017, 02:18:25 PM
One of the stupidest elements of our current system is that only one provincial game is played on each weekend. Absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to run off these competitions. For example, the Ulster should be ran off as follows:

Weekend One: Preliminary round

Weekend two: Saturday Evening QF1
                      Sunday QF2

Weekend three: Saturday Evening QF3
                      Sunday QF4

Weekend four: Sunday SF1 (QF1 v QF2)
                     
Weekend five: Sunday SF2 (QF3 v QF4)

Weekend Seven: Sunday Ulster Final

The 2016 Ulster championship started on the 15th May and finished on the 17th July. The above shaves two weeks off this that could be used to shorten the county calendar or to free up two full weekends of guaranteed club football across Ulster.


I would suggest that across all provinces, the preliminary rounds should be played across one weekend.

Then the quarter-finals across two weekends, and the semi-finals across two.

Then the provincial finals across two.

That's a total of seven weeks to run off every provincial championship game.

For 2018, the championship would start on the weekend of April 28th/29th, with the second two provincial finals (Leinster and Ulster) on Sunday June 10th.

Esmarelda

Quote from: sid waddell on February 27, 2017, 02:50:40 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 27, 2017, 02:18:25 PM
One of the stupidest elements of our current system is that only one provincial game is played on each weekend. Absolutely ridiculous how long it takes to run off these competitions. For example, the Ulster should be ran off as follows:

Weekend One: Preliminary round

Weekend two: Saturday Evening QF1
                      Sunday QF2

Weekend three: Saturday Evening QF3
                      Sunday QF4

Weekend four: Sunday SF1 (QF1 v QF2)
                     
Weekend five: Sunday SF2 (QF3 v QF4)

Weekend Seven: Sunday Ulster Final

The 2016 Ulster championship started on the 15th May and finished on the 17th July. The above shaves two weeks off this that could be used to shorten the county calendar or to free up two full weekends of guaranteed club football across Ulster.


I would suggest that across all provinces, the preliminary rounds should be played across one weekend.

Then the quarter-finals across two weekends, and the semi-finals across two.

Then the provincial finals across two.

That's a total of seven weeks to run off every provincial championship game.

For 2018, the championship would start on the weekend of April 28th/29th, with the second two provincial finals (Leinster and Ulster) on Sunday June 10th.
Seriously lads, this is what's in the proposal. Why are so many commenting without reading. The hysteria is bad enough without looking for what's already been agreed upon.

yellowcard

Quote from: Itchy on February 26, 2017, 10:31:32 AM
I read a lot of anger on social media and my own club have been very vocal on twitter condemning these motions. There is a strange disconnect between ordinary members being mostly against (anecdotally) yet delegates and county boards being overwhelmingly for. Leave that aside for now, this is a huge 2 fingers up to the players, both club and county. As a club volunteer and coach I am primarily concerned with the club scene. I can see a strike of sorts on the cards here - in fact I would recommend one!

I would suggest that all players should go to the next monthly meeting of the club and mandate them not to pay their county board fees. If every club in Ireland does that the delegates wont be long listening to them. It seems money rules everything in the GAA and it is sad to see the first president from my own county making such a disgrace of himself overseeing this mess.

Edit - breaking  http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gpa-will-respond-strongly-to-super-8-snub-says-earley-778890.html

That is probably the best idea I heard yet. I have no doubt that the main reason for the proposals getting through is the promise of additional money back to the counties from the Super 8 TV deal that can be sold to Sky/RTE. Cash strapped counties, many of whom are in large debt, will be seduced by the promise of a few extra quid which makes their jobs an awful lot easier. They are already under considerable financial strain and this super 8 in their minds will ease the problem somewhat. Ultimately the cash strapped counties pass the debt onto the clubs by way of increased fees, levies and imposed fundraising. If clubs refused to co-operate with unity then it would be groundhog day and the hierarchy in positions of power may finally be forced to sit up and listen.

Already, a lot of people are shrugging their shoulders as if to say, it's in now so lets just work with it. Before long it will just be another bone of contention while the main over riding issues have still to be properly addressed. I feel as if it will take something a lot more dramatic such as you suggest to ever bring about the change that is urgently required. 

sid waddell

For Dublin (as a Dublin supporter), this would mean a potential list of fixtures for 2018 would look like this:

January: O'Byrne Cup
February 4: NFL Round 1
February 11: NFL Round 2
February 25: NFL Round 3
March 4: NFL Round 4
March 11: NFL Round 5
March 25: NFL Round 6
April 1: NFL Round 7
April 8: NFL final

May 13: Leinster quarter-final
May 27: Leinster semi-final
June 10: Leinster final
July 1: Super 8 Round 1
July 7: Super 8 Round 2
July 15: Super 8 Round 3
August 5: All-Ireland semi-final
August 26: All-Ireland final

sid waddell

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 27, 2017, 02:54:19 PM

Seriously lads, this is what's in the proposal. Why are so many commenting without reading. The hysteria is bad enough without looking for what's already been agreed upon.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has been agreed upon as regards when the provincial championships will start, or the gaps between matches.

Flesh also has to be put upon the bones of how it will affect the hurling championship, ie. will the two All-Ireland hurling semi-finals be played on the same weekend - hurling people may not be happy with losing a high profile weekend through no fault of their own.

Remember, the hurling championship remains unchanged in format, and there will still be replays. This then can have a knock on impact on football.

There are a number of questions that are still to be answered.

The Trap

If THIS HAD OF BEEN IN LAST YEAR TYRONE WOULD HAVE BEEN AWAY TO CLARE AND HOME TO TIPPERARY - NOT MUCH APPEAL IN THOSE GAMES - WOULD BE LUCKY TO GET 3000 AT THEM...........

From the Bunker

#358
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 27, 2017, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on February 27, 2017, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on February 26, 2017, 03:56:21 PM
Surely these proposals will actually be good for club football
Yes there will be a lot of county games in July / August
But that's no different from now. ( with most of the weaker counties knocked out by that stage anyway) 
The fact that the season is over the last week in August
Allows the club season to effectively be played in September / October / November
Surely that is a much better alternative than what's in place now.

Also the Dubs will have to play two championship games away from Croke Park
Which will add a lot of interesting games. The likes of Kerry won't have a cake walk to the
Final every year oi they had to go away to Ballybofey or somewhere.
The only thing that's missing is atwo tiered structure with the second tier  playing final at All Ire final.
Overall I think it's actually a better deal for club players
As the club championships will take place in sept/ Oct/ Dec no matter what


This line made me smile! Do you honestly think that they (the GAA Hierarchy)will have Dublin playing outside Croker in the Championship? You are really naive if you think that. Think about it? This has more games in Croker written all over it!
While some cynicism is expected in GAA land, do you genuinely think that Dublin won't play their third game in the group outside of Croke Park, after playing the first two there?

They played outside Croker last year and will do so again this year so it's already happening.

The GAA in 2014 would not let Mayo /Kerry replay be played in Croker just in case the Dublin/Donegal semi final game ended in a draw!

Corporate Boxes, Sky TV, Dublin Media, Dublin fans, Sponsors, etc will bay for games in the Capital. They might let Dublin down to the sticks if the game is a dead rubber. Which more likely would be the third game.

This is a Corporate entity we are dealing with. They are interested in maximising making money. They care little about the supporter or the players involved. They are just entities to be used in maximising profits. The (fake) Amateur umbrella they hide under is convenient for high moral ground when standing against other sports.

Esmarelda

Quote from: sid waddell on February 27, 2017, 03:09:51 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 27, 2017, 02:54:19 PM

Seriously lads, this is what's in the proposal. Why are so many commenting without reading. The hysteria is bad enough without looking for what's already been agreed upon.

As far as I'm aware, nothing has been agreed upon as regards when the provincial championships will start, or the gaps between matches.

Flesh also has to be put upon the bones of how it will affect the hurling championship, ie. will the two All-Ireland hurling semi-finals be played on the same weekend - hurling people may not be happy with losing a high profile weekend through no fault of their own.

Remember, the hurling championship remains unchanged in format, and there will still be replays. This then can have a knock on impact on football.

There are a number of questions that are still to be answered.
Well it might need to be rubber-stamped but it is all outlined in the proposal document.