Well.........
Finally, a taste of silverware in Croke Park, injects belief, can they win the big one?
Still get good odds of 11/1.
As long as they leave Cillian O'Connor on the bench, I think they can do it.
Nope. Mayo haven't won an all Ireland since 1951 , it beggars belief how people still tip us to win it.
Try and book a hotel around Dublin for the night before an All Ireland, they've been a busy bunch this morning.
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 11:10:00 AM
As long as they leave Cillian O'Connor on the bench, I think they can do it.
How many frees did Doherty/Hennelly miss?
Quote from: Hound on April 01, 2019, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 11:10:00 AM
As long as they leave Cillian O'Connor on the bench, I think they can do it.
How many frees did Doherty/Hennelly miss?
What you gain with a few frees, you won't get much else. Forwards yesterday worked hard. COC gets involved with too much nonsense, and isn't clinical enough. If Mayo leave him out, they will do much better.
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: Hound on April 01, 2019, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 11:10:00 AM
As long as they leave Cillian O'Connor on the bench, I think they can do it.
How many frees did Doherty/Hennelly miss?
What you gain with a few frees, you won't get much else. Forwards yesterday worked hard. COC gets involved with too much nonsense, and isn't clinical enough. If Mayo leave him out, they will do much better.
Coen offered very little yesterday and Doherty wasn't great either. COC walks back in that Mayo team. If Mayo had top class forwards they'd have hammered Kerry yesterday, had so much ball yesterday in good positions too and didn't take advantage.
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: Hound on April 01, 2019, 12:09:44 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 11:10:00 AM
As long as they leave Cillian O'Connor on the bench, I think they can do it.
How many frees did Doherty/Hennelly miss?
What you gain with a few frees, you won't get much else. Forwards yesterday worked hard. COC gets involved with too much nonsense, and isn't clinical enough. If Mayo leave him out, they will do much better.
The times I've seen COC in the flesh he puts in some shift tbf. The bit in bold, god help everyone else if O'connor isn't clinical! :o Maybe a bit 1 dimensional? ;D
Well as a Dub, I'd definitely prefer if COC wasn't picked!
But I doubt that would happen.
Before yesterday, you'd have said it was a possible.
Now it's more a probable.
COC will becomes the highest scorer of ALL TIME in Championship football this summer
Anyone who thinks he shouldn't be on the Mayo team knows very little about football
Just for reference have a look at the other nine lads in the top 10
Stafford
Sheehy
J Doyle
Gooch
Maurice Fitz
Joyce
Paddy Bradley
Stevie McDonnell
Bernard Brogan
He has a higher average than them all
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on April 01, 2019, 03:53:59 PM
COC will becomes the highest scorer of ALL TIME in Championship football this summer
Anyone who thinks he shouldn't be on the Mayo team knows very little about football
Just for reference have a look at the other nine lads in the top 10
Stafford
Sheehy
J Doyle
Gooch
Maurice Fitz
Joyce
Paddy Bradley
Stevie McDonnell
Bernard Brogan
He has a higher average than them all
So you're suggesting he's better than all those players named?
COC is such a frustrating player. Gets involved in too much niggly stuff, distracting Mayo when in their flow.
Scoring a few frees is all well and good, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near the quality of that other 10.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 01, 2019, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on April 01, 2019, 03:53:59 PM
COC will becomes the highest scorer of ALL TIME in Championship football this summer
Anyone who thinks he shouldn't be on the Mayo team knows very little about football
Just for reference have a look at the other nine lads in the top 10
Stafford
Sheehy
J Doyle
Gooch
Maurice Fitz
Joyce
Paddy Bradley
Stevie McDonnell
Bernard Brogan
He has a higher average than them all
So you're suggesting he's better than all those players named?
A better scorer anyway.
I'd like to see the stat for points from play
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 04:05:50 PM
COC is such a frustrating player. Gets involved in too much niggly stuff, distracting Mayo when in their flow.
Scoring a few frees is all well and good, but I wouldn't put him anywhere near the quality of that other 10.
Scoring a frees is all well and good surely. The 3 points he hit from play in the 2017 AIF came in handy too. I also kind of liked the point from play to bring us to a replay in 2016.
His big return from play in the two games against Kerry in 2014 were probably all handy scores in your head?
He's a class player who will walk back into the team. I agree he needs to cut out the messing and the niggly stuff, he also lacks a yard of pace but you don't know what you're talking about if you think he only contributes frees to the team.
Quote from: Mario on April 01, 2019, 05:12:30 PM
I'd like to see the stat for points from play
Up until 2017 Keegan had more points from play in semi's and finals than COC.
Points from frees count the same you know
DOC missed a free from the 21 yesterday, we miss COC
I would agree he could cut out the sideshow
And I am definitely saying he deserves to be in the same bracket as the other 9
When he first came to notice, back in his YPOTY years, I thought he was one kid who had everything; balance, timing, two-footed, vision, you name it and he appeared to have in in bucket loads. Apart from the problem of lack of speed off the mark, I couldn't see any obvious faults.
You could also tell that his team mates thought highly of him and seemed to regard him as a natural leader and, as the old saying goes, I began to entertain high expectations of him. He was just developing into the most influential player on the side when he was banjaxed by injuries- a shoulder being the major problem.
I don't think he ever fully recovered and was never quite the force he threatened to be before he became injury-prone. People who know him well told me he was devastated by the free he missed in the last few minutes of the 2017 final and blamed himself for Mayo losing the game because of this miss.
It's understandable that his game suffered badly last year because his head was all over the place but while a loss of form is understandable, a loss of temper isn't, not in my book anyhow. Maybe I was a bit hard on the man but it seemed to me he was going to be odds-on to get red-carded in every game he played last year as he spent a loot of effort adding to his growing reputation as a cynical niggler.
I was really pissed off when he got the line during the league game against Galway last year. It was a game i felt Mayo had to win to entertain and hopes of getting very far in the championships and yet he spent his time exchanging digs and insults with every heron-choker that came withing a yard off him. The fact is, if the ref had been any use, Cillian would have got the line a lot earlier.
However, from what I've heard, he was shaping up very well in the club championship earlier this year and seems to have gotten the miss in 2017 out of his system and was making up for lost time, when he was grounded by injuries again.
Now, I know next to nothing about his present state or when and if, he will be ready to play again but he'd be plus to any side anywhere if he could get back to playing natural football again and leaves it at that.
BTW ans I am not referring to COC only when I say that there is no real link between the star qualities of any player and his scoring returns. If there was, Maurice Sheridan would have been the standout player of John Maughan's team of the late 90s.
Between the semi against Kerry and the two finals against Meath, Morrisheen bagged 0-15.
However, only one of the fifteen came form play and the truth is that if he hadn't been a quality free taker, he would not have been selected in the first place.
The percentage of scores a player gets from open play will be a better indications of the man's worth that a grand total of his scores, regardless of how they came about.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 01, 2019, 06:02:05 PM
Quote from: Mario on April 01, 2019, 05:12:30 PM
I'd like to see the stat for points from play
Up until 2017 Keegan had more points from play in semi's and finals than COC.
Incorrect (unless you're excluding goals for the purpose of your ahem, point)
Mayo fans get very defensive of COC but he contributes very little from open play. Mayo have played a running game since the Horan era, they have powerful ball carriers like the O'Shea's, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, Vaughan, DOC who all bomb forward and run hard at the opposition which draws a lot of handy frees for them. COC takes the plaudits with the handy score from a 20 yard free for a lot of those players.
He's not a top level forward, if you had somebody like a Murphy, McManus, McBrearty in that Mayo team they would score a hell of a lot more scores. He's a good free taker on the whole but his contribution from open play is not up to the standard of a team gunning for All Irelands.
I'm not a big fan of Cillian, for the reasons Lar eloquently laid out, but I do respect his ability and his bottle. The equalizer he got in an All Ireland final, where he demanded the ball and knocked it over from 40 yards from play, showed leadership and balls. Yes, he misses the odd time, but not through lack of bottle. Also tucked away a penalty in an All Ireland final, making it look easy when the pressure would have been horrendous.
Giving him stick because he's not as good as Michael Murphy or McManus is harsh in the extreme!
Quote from: Angelo on April 01, 2019, 08:45:34 PM
Mayo fans get very defensive of COC but he contributes very little from open play. Mayo have played a running game since the Horan era, they have powerful ball carriers like the O'Shea's, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, Vaughan, DOC who all bomb forward and run hard at the opposition which draws a lot of handy frees for them. COC takes the plaudits with the handy score from a 20 yard free for a lot of those players.
He's not a top level forward, if you had somebody like a Murphy, McManus, McBrearty in that Mayo team they would score a hell of a lot more scores. He's a good free taker on the whole but his contribution from open play is not up to the standard of a team gunning for All Irelands.
Yeah I'd agree with that. Especially the last sentence.
Quote from: BennyCake on April 01, 2019, 10:14:54 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 01, 2019, 08:45:34 PM
Mayo fans get very defensive of COC but he contributes very little from open play. Mayo have played a running game since the Horan era, they have powerful ball carriers like the O'Shea's, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, Vaughan, DOC who all bomb forward and run hard at the opposition which draws a lot of handy frees for them. COC takes the plaudits with the handy score from a 20 yard free for a lot of those players.
He's not a top level forward, if you had somebody like a Murphy, McManus, McBrearty in that Mayo team they would score a hell of a lot more scores. He's a good free taker on the whole but his contribution from open play is not up to the standard of a team gunning for All Irelands.
Yeah I'd agree with that. Especially the last sentence.
He's also worth the opposition getting a few yellow and red cards.....invaluable in the modern game.
He is also a selector (along with the two O Sheas and Andy fvckin Moran)
"Mayo for sam" ah for f... sorry for the 68th time without success, bookies love it 11/1.
Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.
He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.
I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.
Quote from: giveballaghback on April 01, 2019, 11:04:11 PM
"Mayo for sam" ah for f... sorry for the 68th time without success, bookies love it 11/1.
yak yak yak
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 01, 2019, 11:38:34 PM
Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.
He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.
I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.
Donegal the current all Ireland holders at the time. If I'm not mistaken he scored a hat-trick in the connacht final (all be it against London) in the game prior too. Has anyone ever scored 6 goals in 2 concurrent matches? I think free takers get this argument thrown against them a lot. I would have held the same opinion of Dean Rock for a long time before realising his Quality.
I actually think Cillian O Connor's piggery is needed in that mayo side. Too often they lose games by not fouling enough/being cute enough/slowing down the game with fake injuries/taking soft frees the way Kerry/Dublin and more recently Galway do, and its something COC is very smart at.
Quote from: giveballaghback on April 01, 2019, 11:04:11 PM
"Mayo for sam" ah for f... sorry for the 68th time without success, bookies love it 11/1.
That's a really excellent comeback, your wit is astonishing
How about Mayo4TheLeague 2019?
Do you prefer that?
Fair play to Mayo and congratulations to them on winning league. If they are once again serious contenders it would make for an interesting Super 8 group with them as Connacht champions, Dublin as Leinster champions and maybe Tyrone or Monaghan as Ulster final runners up through the back door.
Quote from: Hound on April 01, 2019, 09:58:47 PM
I'm not a big fan of Cillian, for the reasons Lar eloquently laid out, but I do respect his ability and his bottle. The equalizer he got in an All Ireland final, where he demanded the ball and knocked it over from 40 yards from play, showed leadership and balls. Yes, he misses the odd time, but not through lack of bottle. Also tucked away a penalty in an All Ireland final, making it look easy when the pressure would have been horrendous.
Giving him stick because he's not as good as Michael Murphy or McManus is harsh in the extreme!
Agree with this. He's definitely a plus to Mayo when he's fit and available. They've a couple of other options now though. It has been a good league for them even leaving aside winning it.
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 01, 2019, 11:38:34 PM
Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.
He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.
I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.
He is a prolific scorer but I don't think that makes him a top level forward. The style of play and the type of running power Mayo have means that they will generate a lot of handy frees which O'Connor gets his name put towards, the way Mayo attack means that they also get plenty of men over on their attacks from their running power from deep and I think O'Connor benefits hugely from playing in that Mayo side rather than the other way around.
McAliskey finished the season as the joint 2nd top scorer in Championship and joint 2nd top scorer from play in Championship last year, he didn't even get an All Star nomination. I think O'Connor is a decent player but he's not a top level attacker, I wouldn't have him in the top 10 inside forwards in the game at any stage over his career. In the current Mayo side I would have him behind the likes of Keegan, Durcan, Boyle, O'Shea, Parsons, Barrett, Clarke, Doherty, McLoughlin, Moran and DOC in terms of his importance to Mayo from open play over the past number of years.
He is a good free taker, he puts in a shift, he will take scoring responsibility when his team needs it, he is a good finisher - they are his strong points. However, he is pretty easily marked out of a game, he doesn't have much pace, he's not the most physical for a big guy and doesn't win an awful lot in the air, he doesn't have much of a left foot, his movement is not the best, he doesn't really have that flair or craft. If you gave a man marker the strict detail to stay on O'Connor and nullify him, it's pretty easy done - however when you play Mayo it's more than likely you're going to have to leave that post when the runners like Keegan, Durcan, O'Shea, DOC come through with big danger mounting.
He's a decent player but he's not a top level attacker and there is no convincing me he is despite his scoring statistics.
Quote from: Angelo on April 02, 2019, 09:18:12 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 01, 2019, 11:38:34 PM
Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.
He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.
I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.
He is a prolific scorer but I don't think that makes him a top level forward. The style of play and the type of running power Mayo have means that they will generate a lot of handy frees which O'Connor gets his name put towards, the way Mayo attack means that they also get plenty of men over on their attacks from their running power from deep and I think O'Connor benefits hugely from playing in that Mayo side rather than the other way around.
McAliskey finished the season as the joint 2nd top scorer in Championship and joint 2nd top scorer from play in Championship last year, he didn't even get an All Star nomination. I think O'Connor is a decent player but he's not a top level attacker, I wouldn't have him in the top 10 inside forwards in the game at any stage over his career. In the current Mayo side I would have him behind the likes of Keegan, Durcan, Boyle, O'Shea, Parsons, Barrett, Clarke, Doherty, McLoughlin, Moran and DOC in terms of his importance to Mayo from open play over the past number of years.
He is a good free taker, he puts in a shift, he will take scoring responsibility when his team needs it, he is a good finisher - they are his strong points. However, he is pretty easily marked out of a game, he doesn't have much pace, he's not the most physical for a big guy and doesn't win an awful lot in the air, he doesn't have much of a left foot, his movement is not the best, he doesn't really have that flair or craft. If you gave a man marker the strict detail to stay on O'Connor and nullify him, it's pretty easy done - however when you play Mayo it's more than likely you're going to have to leave that post when the runners like Keegan, Durcan, O'Shea, DOC come through with big danger mounting.
He's a decent player but he's not a top level attacker and there is no convincing me he is despite his scoring statistics.
Thing is though he might provide something Mayo badly need (a finisher and reliable freetaker) so it doesn't really matter what level of overall player he is. If he improves the team he'll be in. I'd rate him similarly as yourself and one or two others do as an individual player but I really think he's hugely important to Mayo because he does things none of their other forwards do. With the possession they'll typically have he'll have plenty of opportunities.
Aidan O'Shea is in unbelievable shape too from what I saw last Sunday.
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Kevin Walsh has said he'll be back for late May. I'm not sure we'll see the best of Comer this summer given he'll have been out for nearly 6 months but given his physical prowess he'll still be very useful. Kyne & McDaid likely back for early next month whilst he was very vague about Conroy; This is what he said...
Paul Conroy, who sustained breaks in both legs in a collision during last year's opening 'Super 8s' game against Kerry, continues to rehabilitate but it will be well into the summer when he makes a full return. "He's not in contact yet. The next few weeks will determine how he comes forward when he goes into contact," Walsh said.
That doesn't sound very hopeful at all.
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 04, 2019, 09:57:57 AM
Aidan O'Shea is in unbelievable shape too from what I saw last Sunday.
Hard to keep that going until end of summer
Am i right in saying that this will be Aidan O'Shea 11th senior championship year with Mayo?
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 04, 2019, 05:19:21 PM
Am i right in saying that this will be Aidan O'Shea 11th senior championship year with Mayo?
Yeah he made his debut in 2009 straight out of minor. Scored a goal against Meath in the quarter final defeat.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what’s Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Wasn't Cummins Galways top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk
Quote from: rosnarun on April 04, 2019, 06:51:12 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Wasn't Cummins Galways top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk
You're being overly sensitive again.
COC gets the most out of himself but the criticisms are valid and I wouldn't have him as a top level forward. I simply don't think he contributes enough from play. The type of players Mayo have and the type of game they play means they generate a huge amount of handy frees in every game, O'Connor is one of the best free takers in the game too - I would estimate that at least 50% of his entire scoring total comes from placed balls inside 30 metres.
He can finish, he can take on the shooting responsibility, he can put a good defensive shift in from the front and he is a very reliable free taker.
But his limitations are obvious, he doesn't have that craft or flair, the aerial ability to win ball despite being a big man, the movement to lose a marker when being tightly watched, the ability to kick scores of his weaker foot consistently, he lacks pace and having watched him live at matches I don't think he shows enough for the ball from open play.
I don't think anybody is saying he is useless or poor, people are saying that he's not a top level forward from open play which is a more than fair comment.
Quote from: Angelo on April 04, 2019, 07:22:16 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on April 04, 2019, 06:51:12 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Wasn't Cummins Galways top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk
You're being overly sensitive again.
COC gets the most out of himself but the criticisms are valid and I wouldn't have him as a top level forward. I simply don't think he contributes enough from play. The type of players Mayo have and the type of game they play means they generate a huge amount of handy frees in every game, O'Connor is one of the best free takers in the game too - I would estimate that at least 50% of his entire scoring total comes from placed balls inside 30 metres.
He can finish, he can take on the shooting responsibility, he can put a good defensive shift in from the front and he is a very reliable free taker.
But his limitations are obvious, he doesn't have that craft or flair, the aerial ability to win ball despite being a big man, the movement to lose a marker when being tightly watched, the ability to kick scores of his weaker foot consistently, he lacks pace and having watched him live at matches I don't think he shows enough for the ball from open play.
I don't think anybody is saying he is useless or poor, people are saying that he's not a top level forward from open play which is a more than fair comment.
Enjoying a Tyrone man continually underplaying the huge importance of a consistent free taker at the top level
Quote from: JoG2 on April 04, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 04, 2019, 07:22:16 PM
Quote from: rosnarun on April 04, 2019, 06:51:12 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Wasn't Cummins Galways top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk
You're being overly sensitive again.
COC gets the most out of himself but the criticisms are valid and I wouldn't have him as a top level forward. I simply don't think he contributes enough from play. The type of players Mayo have and the type of game they play means they generate a huge amount of handy frees in every game, O'Connor is one of the best free takers in the game too - I would estimate that at least 50% of his entire scoring total comes from placed balls inside 30 metres.
He can finish, he can take on the shooting responsibility, he can put a good defensive shift in from the front and he is a very reliable free taker.
But his limitations are obvious, he doesn't have that craft or flair, the aerial ability to win ball despite being a big man, the movement to lose a marker when being tightly watched, the ability to kick scores of his weaker foot consistently, he lacks pace and having watched him live at matches I don't think he shows enough for the ball from open play.
I don't think anybody is saying he is useless or poor, people are saying that he's not a top level forward from open play which is a more than fair comment.
Enjoying a Tyrone man continually underplaying the huge importance of a consistent free taker at the top level
You're putting words in my mouth now. It's pretty clear what I've said, last year McAliskey was the 2nd top scorer in Championship football, both from play and overall. I like McAliskey, I can't fault his attitude and his effort and I think he's a very good player - he's not a top level forward though and I think if he was in that Mayo team ahead of O'Connor and taking frees he'd have scored every bit as much as him.
People who think that just because O'Connor tops the scoring charts most years means he's a top level forward is wrong. I'd have a 35 year old Andy Moran ahead of him every day of the week if I had to choose.
The guy from don't foul used to put up some very interesting GAA data from matches, he doesn't seem to do as much anymore which is a shame as it was always very interesting to see how the reality may reinforce or differ from your perceptions.
In 2017, he did some analysis on COC's frees ahead of the AI final - it's interesting to see the pattern emerge of where the scores come from.
(https://dontfoul.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/coc-fress-modified.png)
You can see there that his conversion rate dips significantly outside what are generally gimmees for any above average inter county free taker. It reinforces what my views are of O'Connor, his scoring records year on year are phenomenal but when you delve deeper in behind them you see that they are hugely boosted by handy frees in front of the posts which are a product of some of the superb runners Mayo have in that team and they way they can generate those scorable frees and goal chances.
I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.
As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 04, 2019, 08:50:36 PM
I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.
As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.
Sensible idea Farr, this thread has gone way off-topic.
I dunno who is most likely to give the Dubs a right rattle during the championships but if Mayo make it as far as the AI final and Dublin provides the opposition, the only ting I can say with confidence is that if the Dubs make the five in a row, this one will be the toughest of them all to date.
Mayo just don't fear Dublin- not in the championships anyway. Andy once said that he didn't want to see Dublin split. He wanted to take them on fair and square without help from any quarter and he reckoned the rest of the team felt the same way. IMO, Mayo and Dublin have been very evenly matched in all games at HQ since the '13 final. Sure, Mayo have had bizarre spells of hard luck but Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too and if they had lost any final or semi of the games they played, some Dubs might feel aggrieved as a result.
IMO, the big, big difference between the teams was the quality in depth that Jim Gavin had. His bench was the defining difference between the sides.
Unfortunately for Mayo, it was a case of all fur coat and no knickers every year. A top class team but the quality dropped off sharply once you looked past the first few on the bench, whereas Gavin had at least 20 who couldn't gain a first team place but who'd walk onto any other county side.
Far too soon to start feeling bullish about Mayo's prospects but Horan will have at least 20 top class players to choose from.
There's a lot of work to be done yet and there's no guarantee that Mayo will make it t the final but if they do, they'll take no prisoners, Dubs or otherwise!
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 04, 2019, 09:45:39 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 04, 2019, 08:50:36 PM
I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.
As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.
Sensible idea Farr, this thread has gone way off-topic.
I dunno who is most likely to give the Dubs a right rattle during the championships but if Mayo make it as far as the AI final and Dublin provides the opposition, the only ting I can say with confidence is that if the Dubs make the five in a row, this one will be the toughest of them all to date.
Mayo just don't fear Dublin- not in the championships anyway. Andy once said that he didn't want to see Dublin split. He wanted to take them on fair and square without help from any quarter and he reckoned the rest of the team felt the same way. IMO, Mayo and Dublin have been very evenly matched in all games at HQ since the '13 final. Sure, Mayo have had bizarre spells of hard luck but Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too and if they had lost any final or semi of the games they played, some Dubs might feel aggrieved as a result.
IMO, the big, big difference between the teams was the quality in depth that Jim Gavin had. His bench was the defining difference between the sides.
Unfortunately for Mayo, it was a case of all fur coat and no knickers every year. A top class team but the quality dropped off sharply once you looked past the first few on the bench, whereas Gavin had at least 20 who couldn't gain a first team place but who'd walk onto any other county side.
Far too soon to start feeling bullish about Mayo's prospects but Horan will have at least 20 top class players to choose from.
There's a lot of work to be done yet and there's no guarantee that Mayo will make it t the final but if they do, they'll take no prisoners, Dubs or otherwise!
Bar Jack McCafferey doing his Cruciate early in one final, I can't think of any other unlucky breaks Dublin have had?
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 04, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 04, 2019, 09:45:39 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 04, 2019, 08:50:36 PM
I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.
As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.
Sensible idea Farr, this thread has gone way off-topic.
I dunno who is most likely to give the Dubs a right rattle during the championships but if Mayo make it as far as the AI final and Dublin provides the opposition, the only ting I can say with confidence is that if the Dubs make the five in a row, this one will be the toughest of them all to date.
Mayo just don't fear Dublin- not in the championships anyway. Andy once said that he didn't want to see Dublin split. He wanted to take them on fair and square without help from any quarter and he reckoned the rest of the team felt the same way. IMO, Mayo and Dublin have been very evenly matched in all games at HQ since the '13 final. Sure, Mayo have had bizarre spells of hard luck but Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too and if they had lost any final or semi of the games they played, some Dubs might feel aggrieved as a result.
IMO, the big, big difference between the teams was the quality in depth that Jim Gavin had. His bench was the defining difference between the sides.
Unfortunately for Mayo, it was a case of all fur coat and no knickers every year. A top class team but the quality dropped off sharply once you looked past the first few on the bench, whereas Gavin had at least 20 who couldn't gain a first team place but who'd walk onto any other county side.
Far too soon to start feeling bullish about Mayo's prospects but Horan will have at least 20 top class players to choose from.
There's a lot of work to be done yet and there's no guarantee that Mayo will make it t the final but if they do, they'll take no prisoners, Dubs or otherwise!
Bar Jack McCafferey doing his Cruciate early in one final, I can't think of any other unlucky breaks Dublin have had?
TBH, neither can I! ;D
However, this thread is open to Dubs as well as Culchies and I bet The Greatest and maybe 100 others wouldn't agree with that. Let everyone have his (her?) say, I say.
Not quite injuries but O'Carroll was probably the best full back about so he was a loss and mccaffrey who is as good a player as there is about missing to travelling. That aside can't think of many injuries (unless Flynn maybe but unsure if he was injured or just not quite good enough any more?) maybe cian O'Sullivan last year too? Tyrone were never in the ai final once he went off. I think he is going to become a weak link in there mind as I don't think he is what he used to be.
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 04, 2019, 10:02:32 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 04, 2019, 09:45:39 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 04, 2019, 08:50:36 PM
I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.
As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.
Sensible idea Farr, this thread has gone way off-topic.
I dunno who is most likely to give the Dubs a right rattle during the championships but if Mayo make it as far as the AI final and Dublin provides the opposition, the only ting I can say with confidence is that if the Dubs make the five in a row, this one will be the toughest of them all to date.
Mayo just don't fear Dublin- not in the championships anyway. Andy once said that he didn't want to see Dublin split. He wanted to take them on fair and square without help from any quarter and he reckoned the rest of the team felt the same way. IMO, Mayo and Dublin have been very evenly matched in all games at HQ since the '13 final. Sure, Mayo have had bizarre spells of hard luck but Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too and if they had lost any final or semi of the games they played, some Dubs might feel aggrieved as a result.
IMO, the big, big difference between the teams was the quality in depth that Jim Gavin had. His bench was the defining difference between the sides.
Unfortunately for Mayo, it was a case of all fur coat and no knickers every year. A top class team but the quality dropped off sharply once you looked past the first few on the bench, whereas Gavin had at least 20 who couldn't gain a first team place but who'd walk onto any other county side.
Far too soon to start feeling bullish about Mayo's prospects but Horan will have at least 20 top class players to choose from.
There's a lot of work to be done yet and there's no guarantee that Mayo will make it t the final but if they do, they'll take no prisoners, Dubs or otherwise!
Bar Jack McCafferey doing his Cruciate early in one final, I can't think of any other unlucky breaks Dublin have had?
The 2013 AI final I think where Dublin effectively were down to 13 for the last 10 minutes with a concussed Rory O'Carroll and Eoghan O'Gara with a torn hamstring on the pitch but not really able to play any part in the game.
Quote from: rosnarun on April 04, 2019, 06:51:12 PM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 02:12:23 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on April 04, 2019, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: ballinaman on April 04, 2019, 11:31:32 AM
Quote from: Maroon Manc on April 04, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.
The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.
Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.
Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.
Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.
Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.
Wasn't Cummins Galways top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk
But when everyone is fit Cummins will be back on the bench. Ultimately a player like COC is going to be judged on performances on semi's & finals which he's well into double figures in.
COC is very important to Mayo and still your best forward but he's not turned into the player I thought he'd be when he first burst onto the scene as 19 year old. I've not seen a repeat of those performances against Kerry in 2014 when he was 22. I think he kicked 3 points from play in the 2017 final but still he left a good few scores behind him too.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on April 04, 2019, 05:01:44 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on April 04, 2019, 09:57:57 AM
Aidan O'Shea is in unbelievable shape too from what I saw last Sunday.
Hard to keep that going until end of summer
I'd argue that with the weight he has lost it will be easier to maintain his fitness.
That's the shape he would need it to be to play midfield at County level . He was played in and out of midfield, centre forward, full forward for a few years.
Quote from: rodney trotter on April 05, 2019, 12:40:21 PM
That's the shape he would need it to be to play midfield at County level . He was played in and out of midfield, centre forward, full forward for a few years.
Not forgetting a cameo at full back also! ;)
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
Some scoring by Matt Connor in just 26 games. Incredible skilful footballer also.
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
Paddy Bradley was top notch, I never really appreciated how good he was till I saw him the flesh!! Himself and Enda Muldoon were an deadly duo in the full forward line for a couple of seasons!!
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
Matt Connor's record in a short career stands out there. Tragic what happened him. Had he achieved in what should have been the second half of his career he would be at the top of that list.
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.
I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.
A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.
As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.
I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.
A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.
As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.
I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.
I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.
A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.
As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.
I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.
Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.
I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.
It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.
As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.
Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.
If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.
I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.
A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.
As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.
I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.
Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.
I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.
It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.
As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.
Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.
If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.
A lot in that but I'll just focus on the 1st paragraph. Anyone who watched that game in 2016 would have seen the difference between Cillian and the Tyrone forwards, from play and frees. It's all a matter of opinion, but I'd say you're in the minority if you don't think Cillian is a fair bit better than them.
I'd also disagree with your claim that Cillian gets brilliant service playing for mayo. The problem with our forward play over the last few years is that we don't kick it in enough. Too many players (Vaughan, SOS, Parsons etc) just put the head down and carry the ball into traffic. Almost impossible for inside forwards to play well in that situation. Put Cillian in the Dublin team or possibly Kerry and his scores from play would have been much higher.
What has helped COC and Mike Sheehy is the fact they were freetakers from day 1 of their respective inter-county careers. Gooch had Mike Frank Russell and Dara O'Cinneide taking close-in frees for Kerry early in his career and Bryan Sheehan taking medium to long range ones (not that Gooch would ever be taking any frees with a bit of distance in them).
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: MayoBuck on April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Angelo on April 05, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.
I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.
A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.
As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.
You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.
I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.
Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.
I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.
It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.
As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.
Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.
If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.
A lot in that but I'll just focus on the 1st paragraph. Anyone who watched that game in 2016 would have seen the difference between Cillian and the Tyrone forwards, from play and frees. It's all a matter of opinion, but I'd say you're in the minority if you don't think Cillian is a fair bit better than them.
I'd also disagree with your claim that Cillian gets brilliant service playing for mayo. The problem with our forward play over the last few years is that we don't kick it in enough. Too many players (Vaughan, SOS, Parsons etc) just put the head down and carry the ball into traffic. Almost impossible for inside forwards to play well in that situation. Put Cillian in the Dublin team or possibly Kerry and his scores from play would have been much higher.
Again I can't agree, look at the amount of ball Andy Moran shows for and wins inside for Mayo, it's night and day compared to O'Connor. O'Connor plays a role for Mayo, he is there for his frees and to finish, which on the whole he is quite good at. He puts a good defensive shift in from the front as well but he hasn't developed his game from open play since he came into the team. As for playing with Dublin and Kerry, I honestly couldn't see him making their teams to be honest, even Rock who is a better free taker and more dangerous from open play than O'Connor has his place under pressure now as Costello looks like he could take the free taking job over and contributes more from play.
But when it comes back down to it, O'Connor for me is not a top level forward - he is not up there with guys like McManus, McBrearty, Murphy, Comer, Flynn, Mannion, Moran, Geaney, Clifford etc.
The majority of the Mayo starting side would be top level players in their position across the country over the last number of years - you look at guys like Barrett, Higgins, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, McLoughlin, Diarmuid O'Connor Parsons, Clarke and I feel in that 2/3 years Jason Doherty has really grown into an outstanding intercounty forward.
Where do you put it that Mayo have just fallen short, if you employ introspection on the Mayo team on where they have fallen short then there will be a few of the regulars who will naturally have to come in for scrutiny and criticism.
Let's face it. This is what this thread has turned into.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 06, 2019, 08:24:45 AM
Let's face it. This is what this thread has turned into.
It was always going to be a pile of shit - even before it homed in on O Connor.
Forget about it.
Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?
Quote from: intoDwest on April 08, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?
He does take penalties for Mayo so presumably they comprise of a fair amount of those goals.
Quote from: intoDwest on April 08, 2019, 09:26:15 AM
Only Mikey Sheehy has scored more goals than him, but I suppose all Cillians were from penalties...................this is a wind up I presume?
bingo
For such an average forward he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.
Well done Cillian , we know you're worth
Quote from: larryin89 on April 08, 2019, 06:07:18 PM
For such an average forward he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.
Probably for all the extra carry on that he's so fond of. That will always put a target on your back.
Quote from: larryin89 on April 08, 2019, 06:07:18 PM
For such an average forward he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.
Well done Cillian , we know you're worth
His elbows have certainly kept the dublin medical team busy over the years. If he was as lethal with his frees as his elbows he'd probably have a couple of All Ireland medals now
Quote from: larryin89 on April 08, 2019, 06:07:18 PM
For such an average forward he sure as hell gets some attention from the dubs,galways etc etc.
Well done Cillian , we know you're worth
I don't think he does in a man marking sense, they generally have deployed their best man markers on the other forwards - think it was Cooper on Doherty and Fitzsimons on Moran in the last final.
As I said he's a good free taker and a good finisher but if Mayo want to go that extra step and win an All Ireland then he is probably the player on the starting XV who has to start delivering more from play.
Anyway, to try and get back on-topic, I thought this article by Pat Spillane (https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/pat-spillane-mayo-warriors-are-far-from-the-finished-article-but-improved-forward-play-makes-them-serious-contenders-37993453.html) is worth some discussion.
Pat Spillane: 'Mayo warriors are far from the finished article but improved forward play makes them serious contenders'
Pat Spillane
April 8 2019 3:07 PM
As a proud Kerryman I'm always down when the Green and Gold are beaten.
However, last Sunday I experienced a different sensation. To be perfectly honest, I wasn't disappointed that Kerry's heroes were beaten by Mayo, for the simple reason that no-one could begrudge this Mayo team a victory in a national final.
What can you say about these Mayo boys? They are warriors, resilient, full of character, they've had so many falls yet they get back up and go again.
Although there was just a breeze blowing towards the Canal End last Sunday, as distinct from the howling gale in Tralee, the league final was a replica of the contest between the counties a fortnight previously.
Mayo played the final on their own terms, just as they had in Tralee. They bullied Kerry physically, but within the rules, and they controlled midfield, where Kerry were horsed out of it, in the second-half especially. The men from the West were also strong in the tackle and their athleticism and running from deep was magnificent.
But was there anything new? What could give Mayo people hope of a summer of Sam?
Well, there was their forward play, where a team that has run the ball a lot in recent seasons has now added good kicked passing.
The youngsters looked like big-time finds during the league; Matthew Ruane, Ciarán Treacy, James Carr and Fionn McDonagh were all introduced with success and there is Cian Hanley to come back from injury. All these lads are already big, strong players with good engines.
There is also the simple issue of getting the win. I think it was a vital monkey off Mayo's back.
James Horan's mix-and-mend approach on his return as boss has worked superbly. He rested veterans at times and introduced youngsters and it all came together to give Horan something for the summer he never had for previous All-Ireland campaigns: a bench that can make an impact.
The 2019 league gave Mayo two fine statistics: they have not lost to Kerry in the league at either Tralee or Killarney in this decade and they have not lost any of their last five matches against Kerry in Croke Park.
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Make no mistake about it, they are the prime danger now to the Dubs' five-in-a-row bid.
But are Mayo the finished article for an All-Ireland? No, far from it. And while I said that I admire their improved forward play, it still remains the Achilles heel of the Green and Red.
They missed five good goal chances against Kerry, kicked 10 shots short and booted 11 wides. In the first-half a week ago, Mayo had 55 per cent of the possession, yet went in four points adrift. Even allowing for the strong breeze against them that was not good.
And after 45 minutes they had converted just eight of their 22 scoring chances in the decider. They just could not put Kerry away. That was their weakness, a weakness even a Dublin team a little on the wane will not show later this year. Give Dublin 22 scoring chances in the first 45 minutes and 17 of them will result in scores.
What about Kerry? The thing is we do highs and lows to extremes in the South-West. When we win a few matches an All-Ireland is just over the horizon, lose one and it is all doom and gloom.
For me, Kerry are now in 'glass half-full' country. With a new manager in Peter Keane and an obvious rebuilding job to be done with the quality Kerry youngsters, the supporters would actually have been happy to just stay in Division 1.
Indeed, getting to the decider was a huge bonus. Do you realise that four of the starting forwards from the league final played in the 2016 All-Ireland minor final?
At best, four Kerry players held their own against their markers – Stephen O'Brien, Tom O'Sullivan, Peter Crowley and David Clifford – and Clifford had the chance to palm home what might well have been a winning goal with a few minutes to go.
Despite being well beaten across most of the pitch, Kerry could still have won the game. It's small margins, because then this would have been a very different article coming to very different conclusions.
What I can stand over is that after each of Kerry's wins in the league, I wrote here that there were as many negatives as positives to be taken out of every game. And those negatives jumped up to bite the Kerrymen in the final.
Yes, yes, Gaelic football is a fluid game nowadays, but you need your backs to be able to defend, and Kerry's were just bamboozled by runners last Sunday – all three goals came from a spare man taking a pass as he romped through unchallenged.
For the second goal, it was an unmarked Mayo man who kicked the ball forward to find Diarmuid O'Connor being marked by the Kerry centre-forward Sean O'Shea on the edge of his own square. Where was the entire full-back line?
Kerry need to be protecting the opposition's scoring zone. Too many of our defenders were poor when run at directly. There's work to be done, but can Kerry, in what seems will be a cakewalk of a Munster championship, find a man-marker in the form of Philly McMahon or Jonny Cooper? To me, one is badly needed back there
Maybe I should do the Lotto this week. In last week's column, I highlighted the fact that Kerry would not go far this year if Sean O'Shea kept contributing half their scoring total, and most of them from placed balls.
Well, with Lee Keegan doing a marking job on him, O'Shea got no score from play last Sunday. His fellow starting forwards were all over the shop, scoring a mere 1-2 from play in the game.
David Clifford kicked a point from play in the 17th minute and the next time any Kerry forward scored a point from play it was substitute Paul Geaney in the 69th minute. Dear God.
It wasn't just the basic art of scoring that let Kerry down. For one thing, there was far too much aimless kicking of the ball in at full-forward Tommy Walsh, who had no support beside him. For too long Kerry were like an ace gunslinger with no bullets in his gun.
Too many Kerry fans are holding tight to the belief that David Moran's return to fitness will save the day for the midfield.
Yes, the Kerins O'Rahilly's player will bring physicality and ball-winning ability to that area, but David can no longer go the distance for 70 minutes, on a hard surface, in the huge space that is Croke Park.
We've known that for a while and nor, after two cruel knee injuries, does he have the pace to live with the likes of Ruane or Dublin's Brian Fenton as they rampage up and down the pitch.
And finally, for Kerry, and not for the first time in Croker in recent years, senior players didn't turn up. There's work to be done when the players come back from their clubs at the end of April.
Mayo are back dining at the top table, if not yet at the top seat, but Dublin have shown a few cracks, Tyrone have started to attack, Kerry have begun to bring through their young players, and Galway, with Corofin's players now available and the likes of Damien Comer and Paul Conroy fit again, offer great possibilities.
We might yet have a good summer of Gaelic football to come.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 08, 2019, 09:47:29 PM
Anyway, to try and get back on-topic, I thought this article by Pat Spillane (https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/pat-spillane-mayo-warriors-are-far-from-the-finished-article-but-improved-forward-play-makes-them-serious-contenders-37993453.html) is worth some discussion.
Pat Spillane: 'Mayo warriors are far from the finished article but improved forward play makes them serious contenders'
Pat Spillane
April 8 2019 3:07 PM
As a proud Kerryman I'm always down when the Green and Gold are beaten.
However, last Sunday I experienced a different sensation. To be perfectly honest, I wasn't disappointed that Kerry's heroes were beaten by Mayo, for the simple reason that no-one could begrudge this Mayo team a victory in a national final.
What can you say about these Mayo boys? They are warriors, resilient, full of character, they've had so many falls yet they get back up and go again.
Although there was just a breeze blowing towards the Canal End last Sunday, as distinct from the howling gale in Tralee, the league final was a replica of the contest between the counties a fortnight previously.
Mayo played the final on their own terms, just as they had in Tralee. They bullied Kerry physically, but within the rules, and they controlled midfield, where Kerry were horsed out of it, in the second-half especially. The men from the West were also strong in the tackle and their athleticism and running from deep was magnificent.
But was there anything new? What could give Mayo people hope of a summer of Sam?
Well, there was their forward play, where a team that has run the ball a lot in recent seasons has now added good kicked passing.
The youngsters looked like big-time finds during the league; Matthew Ruane, Ciarán Treacy, James Carr and Fionn McDonagh were all introduced with success and there is Cian Hanley to come back from injury. All these lads are already big, strong players with good engines.
There is also the simple issue of getting the win. I think it was a vital monkey off Mayo's back.
James Horan's mix-and-mend approach on his return as boss has worked superbly. He rested veterans at times and introduced youngsters and it all came together to give Horan something for the summer he never had for previous All-Ireland campaigns: a bench that can make an impact.
The 2019 league gave Mayo two fine statistics: they have not lost to Kerry in the league at either Tralee or Killarney in this decade and they have not lost any of their last five matches against Kerry in Croke Park.
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Make no mistake about it, they are the prime danger now to the Dubs' five-in-a-row bid.
But are Mayo the finished article for an All-Ireland? No, far from it. And while I said that I admire their improved forward play, it still remains the Achilles heel of the Green and Red.
They missed five good goal chances against Kerry, kicked 10 shots short and booted 11 wides. In the first-half a week ago, Mayo had 55 per cent of the possession, yet went in four points adrift. Even allowing for the strong breeze against them that was not good.
And after 45 minutes they had converted just eight of their 22 scoring chances in the decider. They just could not put Kerry away. That was their weakness, a weakness even a Dublin team a little on the wane will not show later this year. Give Dublin 22 scoring chances in the first 45 minutes and 17 of them will result in scores.
What about Kerry? The thing is we do highs and lows to extremes in the South-West. When we win a few matches an All-Ireland is just over the horizon, lose one and it is all doom and gloom.
For me, Kerry are now in 'glass half-full' country. With a new manager in Peter Keane and an obvious rebuilding job to be done with the quality Kerry youngsters, the supporters would actually have been happy to just stay in Division 1.
Indeed, getting to the decider was a huge bonus. Do you realise that four of the starting forwards from the league final played in the 2016 All-Ireland minor final?
At best, four Kerry players held their own against their markers – Stephen O'Brien, Tom O'Sullivan, Peter Crowley and David Clifford – and Clifford had the chance to palm home what might well have been a winning goal with a few minutes to go.
Despite being well beaten across most of the pitch, Kerry could still have won the game. It's small margins, because then this would have been a very different article coming to very different conclusions.
What I can stand over is that after each of Kerry's wins in the league, I wrote here that there were as many negatives as positives to be taken out of every game. And those negatives jumped up to bite the Kerrymen in the final.
Yes, yes, Gaelic football is a fluid game nowadays, but you need your backs to be able to defend, and Kerry's were just bamboozled by runners last Sunday – all three goals came from a spare man taking a pass as he romped through unchallenged.
For the second goal, it was an unmarked Mayo man who kicked the ball forward to find Diarmuid O'Connor being marked by the Kerry centre-forward Sean O'Shea on the edge of his own square. Where was the entire full-back line?
Kerry need to be protecting the opposition's scoring zone. Too many of our defenders were poor when run at directly. There's work to be done, but can Kerry, in what seems will be a cakewalk of a Munster championship, find a man-marker in the form of Philly McMahon or Jonny Cooper? To me, one is badly needed back there
Maybe I should do the Lotto this week. In last week's column, I highlighted the fact that Kerry would not go far this year if Sean O'Shea kept contributing half their scoring total, and most of them from placed balls.
Well, with Lee Keegan doing a marking job on him, O'Shea got no score from play last Sunday. His fellow starting forwards were all over the shop, scoring a mere 1-2 from play in the game.
David Clifford kicked a point from play in the 17th minute and the next time any Kerry forward scored a point from play it was substitute Paul Geaney in the 69th minute. Dear God.
It wasn't just the basic art of scoring that let Kerry down. For one thing, there was far too much aimless kicking of the ball in at full-forward Tommy Walsh, who had no support beside him. For too long Kerry were like an ace gunslinger with no bullets in his gun.
Too many Kerry fans are holding tight to the belief that David Moran's return to fitness will save the day for the midfield.
Yes, the Kerins O'Rahilly's player will bring physicality and ball-winning ability to that area, but David can no longer go the distance for 70 minutes, on a hard surface, in the huge space that is Croke Park.
We've known that for a while and nor, after two cruel knee injuries, does he have the pace to live with the likes of Ruane or Dublin's Brian Fenton as they rampage up and down the pitch.
And finally, for Kerry, and not for the first time in Croker in recent years, senior players didn't turn up. There's work to be done when the players come back from their clubs at the end of April.
Mayo are back dining at the top table, if not yet at the top seat, but Dublin have shown a few cracks, Tyrone have started to attack, Kerry have begun to bring through their young players, and Galway, with Corofin's players now available and the likes of Damien Comer and Paul Conroy fit again, offer great possibilities.
We might yet have a good summer of Gaelic football to come.
Yearrah.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 08, 2019, 09:47:29 PM
Anyway, to try and get back on-topic, I thought this article by Pat Spillane (https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/pat-spillane-mayo-warriors-are-far-from-the-finished-article-but-improved-forward-play-makes-them-serious-contenders-37993453.html) is worth some discussion.
Pat Spillane: 'Mayo warriors are far from the finished article but improved forward play makes them serious contenders'
Usual Muck from Spillane!
Plámás from Pat.
Quote from: oakleaflad on April 05, 2019, 03:34:56 PM
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018
1 Colm Cooper Kerry 23-283 352 85 games 2002-2017 4.1
2 Cillian O'Connor Mayo 23-272 341 48 games 2011- 7.1
3 Mikey Sheehy Kerry 29-205 292 49 games 1973-1988 6.0
4 John Doyle Kildare 8-260 284 67 games 1999-2014 4.2
5 Padraig Joyce Galway 12-229 265 66 games 1997-2012 4.0
6 Bernard Brogan Dublin 21-196 259 58 games 2006- 4.5
7 Paddy Bradley Derry 17-202 253 44 games 1999-2012 5.8
8 Steven McDonnell Armagh 18-197 251 67 games 1999-2011 3.7
9 Maurice Fitzgerald Kerry 12-205 241 45 games 1988-2001 5.4
10 Brian Stafford Meath 9-206 233 41 games 1986-1995 5.7
11 Oisin McConville Armagh 11-197 230 52 games 1994-2008 4.4
12 Jimmy Keaveney Dublin 15-182 227 42 games 1964-1980 5.4
13 Peter Canavan Tyrone 9-192 219 58 games 1989-2005 3.8
14 Conor McManus Monaghan 7-204 225 50 games 2007- 4.5
15 Sean Cavanagh Tyrone 9-181 208 89 games 2002-2017 2.3
16 Colin Corkery Cork 5-182 197 32 games 1993-2004 6.2
17 Ross Munnelly Laois 6-168 186 70 games 2003- 2.7
18 Dean Rock Dublin 8-173 197 36 games 2013- 5.4
19 Dara O'Cinneide Kerry 11-149 182 54 games 1995-2005 3.4
20 Matt Connor Offaly 13-142 181 26 games 1978-1984 7.0
21 Pat Spillane Kerry 19-123 180 56 games 1974-1991 3.2
I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.
PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.
Dont suppose there is one floating around for Play V Frees?
Quote from: From the Bunker on April 08, 2019, 10:29:04 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 08, 2019, 09:47:29 PM
Anyway, to try and get back on-topic, I thought this article by Pat Spillane (https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/pat-spillane-mayo-warriors-are-far-from-the-finished-article-but-improved-forward-play-makes-them-serious-contenders-37993453.html) is worth some discussion.
Pat Spillane: 'Mayo warriors are far from the finished article but improved forward play makes them serious contenders'
Usual Muck from Spillane!
if he mean we are now league champions but can still improve then he probable has a point . and on horan record I can see them improving quiet a bit .
another thing hes going on a bout mayos 5 missed goals
if the had taken them that would have brought the total to 8!
whens the last time that happen to a Kerry senior team.
I was quiet happy with the 3 we got .