Congress

[dublin7]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing

[BennyCake]

Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster.

Leinster was competitive until they killed it by financing Dublin. 6 teams won it since 1997 (7 teams if you count Louth, as they technically won it) . Only 3 teams didn't make the final

So, 20 teams in Leinster/Ulster, that's more  than half the counties were in competitive championships. Plus Connacht was usually competitive too. The provincials aren't the issue. Financing Dublin was.

[Rossfan]

How many Leinster teams made AI Semis after the Qualifiers came in?
No matter how much Finance Dublin got it wouldn't have stopped other Leinster teams progressing to the closing stages IF THEY WERE GOOD ENOUGH!!

[APM]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing

So the third placed team in Division 2 that has played Division 2 opposition throughout the competition is more deserving of a place in the QFs than the 6th placed team in Division 1.  Take 2017 for example.  Tyrone finish in 6th place in Division 1 on 7 points, drawing with Dublin in the process. They are less worthy of progression into the knockout stages than Meath who gained 9 points in Division 2.  Or 2016 when Monaghan finished 6th in Division 1 on 6 points (along with four other teams).  They are less worthy of a place in the knockout stages than Galway who finished 3rd in Division 2 on 7 points. 

If you are looking at Division 1 as the place for rising teams to push on, then you give them the opportunity to play in the knockout stages if they stay in the Division.  A yo yo team is better off in Division 2. 

[BennyCake]

How many Leinster teams made AI Semis after the Qualifiers came in?
No matter how much Finance Dublin got it wouldn't have stopped other Leinster teams progressing to the closing stages IF THEY WERE GOOD ENOUGH!!

The point is as a standalone competition. Leinster had 6 (7 really) different winners, who would have made the AI semis if there was no qualifier system. 4 Connacht teams too, and 7 Ulster.

[sid waddell]

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.

Someone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.

——

Get your head around the concept that the league is part of the championship.

It's much easier to accept how things could unfold, when you accept that performance is measured fron day 1 of the competition.

Maybe Wobbler could explain why he holds two directly contradictory opinions?

He supports the proposal that those who finish outside the top half of Division 1 do not qualify for the knockout stages.

But he also supports the idea of all eight teams in Division 1 qualifying for the knockout stages.

And the top 6 in Division 2.

Based on their performances from the previous year.

ie. he wants a completely pointless format full of challenge matches.

It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1,  top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.

I'd agree. The difference between the teams in finishing positions 5, 6 and 7 would often be trivial amounts scoring difference; and smashing a team to death at least once a season becomes paramount.

But I'd also suggest: all 8 in D1, top 6 in D2, top 1 in D3 and top 1 in D4.

This way:

- the best 8 teams from the previous season (ie D1 at the start of the year) all qualify for the playoffs, ensuring higher standards.

[sid waddell]

When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It's that simple.

Change is a meaningless buzzword.

It assumes an iron law that all change is good.

The world doesn't work like that.

[naka]

so if b is accepted  after the league ends
6,7,8 in division 1
4,5,6,7,8 in division 2 have no further games whilst everyone sles is in a play-off .
seems a little unfair

[BennyCake]

APM.

Here's the rub.

Option B. If nothing else, allows the Association's blue riband competition to break free from the shackles of an unequal provincially-led driven format that was designed to suit proximity in a bygone era.

Once that clean break happens, then the GAA will have an opportunity to look at models and formats.

But while it remains, we won't. We are just stuck. To a bygone concept.

When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It's that simple.

Hmm sounds familiar

[thewobbler]

Sid you're (somewhat deliberately) confusing my preferred approach if given a blank canvas, and what I would strongly believe is the best of the only 3 approaches that are currently on the table.

Change isn't always a good thing. But the choice we are facing is one of change or one of stagnation. The provincial championship concept is stagnant. Voting to remove them from the AI championship opens up potential for refinement. Retaining them closes the door.

Benny, this has no parallel with the complex, life or death decisions that brings the worst out of people on social media. It's not even slightly complicated. If we wish to wed our premier competition and to an archaic and convoluted structure, it is a choice to rail against progress.

[Blowitupref]

so if b is accepted  after the league ends
6,7,8 in division 1
4,5,6,7,8 in division 2 have no further games whilst everyone sles is in a play-off .
seems a little unfair

Just a little and I can only imagine the debate on here and elsewhere once the league format is completed.

Into the June All Ireland series will be (going by league standings) 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th, 5th, 9th,10th, 11th, 17th and 25th

[Eire90]

Do league winners get a trophy or is the league now seen as part of the championship will the league be called the all ireland championship or still national league

[Eire90]

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

[Eire90]

that guy just said champions league constantly delivers great games i disagree lots of group stage games are one sided and the last match day has a  lot of dead rubbers and a lot of 2 legged games are over after the first leg on rare occasion  you get a  team overcome a massive first leg deficit

[naka]

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

how about
6,7,8, in division 1
4,5,6,  in division 2 add in winners div 3, winners div4
play each other
4 teams left in payoff
they play to qualify for quarters

7& 8 in div 2 go into the tailtean cup