Premier League 20/21

[Boycey]

So Guardiolas not very good now, some of you boys shouldn't be let on the internet 

Not really no. This narrative that he's a good manager because he has won with the best squad of players in each country he has been in with a blank chequebook is laughable.
He should go and manage the likes of Atletico Madrid, Arsenal, Lyon/Marseille or AC Milan, and prove himself like Klopp has done, but he won't, because only goes to the top team with a blank chequebook. Juve or PSG will be next for him i'd imagine.
Hope that helps Boycey.

He needs to prove himself 

I agree, he does.

I'll mark you down as one to avoid in football conversations

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Guardiola is a chequebook manager. He doesn't even compare to Klopp.

I mean this one says it all. Klopp was fairly average in England until......yep, you guessed it, splashed the cash.

Both have been successful in England and in their careers, both are exceptional managers, but lets call a spade a spade.

Lets call a spade a spade. Klopp wasn't fairly average before he "splashed the cash". He got a Liverpool team from Rodgers that were in mid table and got the same team back into the top 4 and to a league cup final.
He then signed Van dijk and got them to a Champions League final. Add Alisson to that and they win it the following year.
Guardiola has spent about a billion quid at man city and about half of that is on defenders. Klopp's net spend at Liverpool is about 1/10 of that of Man City's. So lets call a spade a spade.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

So Guardiolas not very good now, some of you boys shouldn't be let on the internet 

Not really no. This narrative that he's a good manager because he has won with the best squad of players in each country he has been in with a blank chequebook is laughable.
He should go and manage the likes of Atletico Madrid, Arsenal, Lyon/Marseille or AC Milan, and prove himself like Klopp has done, but he won't, because only goes to the top team with a blank chequebook. Juve or PSG will be next for him i'd imagine.
Hope that helps Boycey.

He needs to prove himself 

I agree, he does.

I'll mark you down as one to avoid in football conversations

Good man, save me wasting my time spelling it out for you.

[sid waddell]

Guardiola had City playing truly exceptional football two seasons ago. I wondered at the time how he managed to keep a bunch of spoiled, pampered millionaires so tuned in and committed.

Turns out it didn't happen like that. As soon as Liverpool challenged their performance levels and made it into a scrap, they were found wanting.

That isn't true at all

Manchester City were seven points down at Christmas 2018

They won their last 13 games of that season to win the league by one point

[sid waddell]

He dislikes personality and prefers roboticism, and in big cup matches that's a serious drawback

Wasn't a drawback for Jim Gavin but I suppose GAA management is a bit different than trying to manage overpaid professionals across the water.

Jim Gavin never discouraged personality in his players, he encouraged it

There were huge personalities in that Dublin team - Connolly, McCaffrey, McManaman, Brogan, Cooper, McMahon, Cluxton - Gavin was not afraid to bring back Connolly last year, it took balls to do that

But they were very varied personalities - and those personalities always had to operate within the framework of the team

Personality has to be nudged in the right direction

That's what Klopp does and it's what Gavin did

It's when you get those mixtures of personalities all pulling together that you get a potent force -  a dressing room is an eco-system - you need a mixture of personalities - and I think it's in knockout games that you see that come to the fore most

I don't think Guardiola encourages that mixture of personalities, he wants everybody to be the same - that can work for a while, and it always does for him because he is an exceptional coach on the football side of things - but in the long run, it seems to lead to burnout

That's why I say Kompany was a huge loss, because he provided something different in terms of personality, he was their true leader, their Brian Dooher, and when he went, there was nobody left to replace him

Puyol was similar at Barca

In a different way Guardiola's teams also sort of remind me of Kerry 2000-2011

Extremely consistent and much too good for most teams, but when they met a formidable opponent who had serious on field leaders who would not be cowed, they tended to come undone

Whereas Gavin's teams always won the matches that really counted, bar the Donegal aberration in 2014 - because they combined consistency and class with superior on-field leadership

I think Klopp encourages on-field leadership and personality much more so than Guardiola and that's why Liverpool have moved far ahead

It also makes for a happier camp, you can tell players love playing for Klopp, he's a players' man

Guardiola isn't a players' man, Mourinho sort of used to be in his Chelsea and Inter days but long ago lost that touch and for the last decade has been misery and paranoia personified

Guardiola is an extremely intense coach who challenges players hugely but in a different way to Klopp I think -  it seems more of a grind - Klopp is more likeable on a basic personality level, he has a gift

[thewobbler]

You're very right Sid.

My angle is more that they were on this other world level in league football that season, and when Liverpool came along and matched them blow for blow, they weren't bothered initially - but they hadnt the heart needed for a relentless drive the following season.

[sid waddell]

You're very right Sid.

My angle is more that they were on this other world level in league football that season, and when Liverpool came along and matched them blow for blow, they weren't bothered initially - but they hadnt the heart needed for a relentless drive the following season.

I think that's more down to Guardiola's intensity and the loss of Vincent Kompany rather than anything else, and Liverpool were so relentless that dropped early season points that in other years would not have proved fatal did so last season

Nevertheless it was clear as the season wore on that serious cracks were emerging

The latter part of the 2018/19 season was Manchester City's true peak under Guardiola while Barcelona's true peak under Guardiola was 2010/11 culminating in that incredible performance in the final against Manchester United

But it didn't take Barcelona long to drop from that peak, they weren't the same team the following season and Guardiola himself looked burned out and resigned

Perhaps the aversion to being challenged is Guardiola's himself - his idea of football is based on total domination - it's a high end idea of football for the highest end standard - most of the time that domination happens, but when it doesn't it seems he often doesn't know what to do

His victories have generally been crushing ones where his team sweep all comers aside, but in the close battles, he doesn't have a good record

That said at least five of his Champions League exits have been in very strange and unlucky manners - Inter 2010 with the ash cloud and a disallowed goal, Chelsea 2012 when Messi missed a penalty, Atletico Madrid 2016 with another missed penalty, Tottenham 2019 with the disallowed goal at the end, and I would even throw in this year with Sterling's miss against Lyon

I think Bayern would have beaten them comfortably had they got past Lyon however

[Captain Obvious]

Jim Gavin never discouraged personality in his players, he encouraged it

There were huge personalities in that Dublin team - Connolly, McCaffrey, McManaman, Brogan, Cooper, McMahon, Cluxton - Gavin was not afraid to bring back Connolly last year, it took balls to do that

Off the pitch and in the dressing room I have no doubt many had big personalities however the very definition of roboticism on the field was seen in McManaman,Brogan,Cooper, McMahon,Cluxton.   Cluxton remained in that mode for speeches/cup presentations.

For neutrals McCaffrey is probably Dublins most likeable player because he doesn't seem to take himself or the sport as serious as his others. Connolly was dropped because he was too much of a maverick for Gavins liking and had discipline issues. It was then smart by Jim to bring Connolly back into the panel.  A diversionary sideshow was in place to take the media's full attention off the 5 in a row campaign and before making his preplanned exit he didn't want to be known as the manager that finished Connollys county career.

[GetOverTheBar]

Guardiola is a chequebook manager. He doesn't even compare to Klopp.

I mean this one says it all. Klopp was fairly average in England until......yep, you guessed it, splashed the cash.

Both have been successful in England and in their careers, both are exceptional managers, but lets call a spade a spade.

Lets call a spade a spade. Klopp wasn't fairly average before he "splashed the cash". He got a Liverpool team from Rodgers that were in mid table and got the same team back into the top 4 and to a league cup final.
He then signed Van dijk and got them to a Champions League final. Add Alisson to that and they win it the following year.
Guardiola has spent about a billion quid at man city and about half of that is on defenders. Klopp's net spend at Liverpool is about 1/10 of that of Man City's. So lets call a spade a spade.

This was the Rodgers team that months before had finished 2nd wasn't it?

Klopp has broke two world transfer records whilst in charge (Goalkeeper and Defender) . I don't see what the problem with pointing this out is, especially when you point out Guardiola has spent X amount on defenders, surely you can acknowledge that it's not much different to Klopp really, it would just appear Klopp signings have been more successful in the past few years.

They are both top level managers but let's disregard the propaganda that one team spends and the other doesn't.

[GiveItToTheShooters]

Guardiola is a chequebook manager. He doesn't even compare to Klopp.

I mean this one says it all. Klopp was fairly average in England until......yep, you guessed it, splashed the cash.

Both have been successful in England and in their careers, both are exceptional managers, but lets call a spade a spade.

Lets call a spade a spade. Klopp wasn't fairly average before he "splashed the cash". He got a Liverpool team from Rodgers that were in mid table and got the same team back into the top 4 and to a league cup final.
He then signed Van dijk and got them to a Champions League final. Add Alisson to that and they win it the following year.
Guardiola has spent about a billion quid at man city and about half of that is on defenders. Klopp's net spend at Liverpool is about 1/10 of that of Man City's. So lets call a spade a spade.

This was the Rodgers team that months before had finished 2nd wasn't it?

Klopp has broke two world transfer records whilst in charge (Goalkeeper and Defender) . I don't see what the problem with pointing this out is, especially when you point out Guardiola has spent X amount on defenders, surely you can acknowledge that it's not much different to Klopp really, it would just appear Klopp signings have been more successful in the past few years.

They are both top level managers but let's disregard the propaganda that one team spends and the other doesn't.

There is no problem with pointing that out. The difference is that Man City's net spend is several hundreds of million larger than Liverpool's. Van Dijk and Alisson were funded by the sale of Coutinho, whereas City can spend as much as they please. That has never been the case at Liverpool. Even with Thiago and Jota, two signings who will be paid off over the next 4/5 years.
So I think it's fair to say one team spends, and it is definitely different to Klopp and Liverpool.

[sid waddell]

Jim Gavin never discouraged personality in his players, he encouraged it

There were huge personalities in that Dublin team - Connolly, McCaffrey, McManaman, Brogan, Cooper, McMahon, Cluxton - Gavin was not afraid to bring back Connolly last year, it took balls to do that

Off the pitch and in the dressing room I have no doubt many had big personalities however the very definition of roboticism on the field was seen in McManaman,Brogan,Cooper, McMahon,Cluxton.   Cluxton remained in that mode for speeches/cup presentations.

For neutrals McCaffrey is probably Dublins most likeable player because he doesn't seem to take himself or the sport as serious as his others. Connolly was dropped because he was too much of a maverick for Gavins liking and had discipline issues. It was then smart by Jim to bring Connolly back into the panel.  A diversionary sideshow was in place to take the media's full attention off the 5 in a row campaign and before making his preplanned exit he didn't want to be known as the manager that finished Connollys county career.

Connolly was always a maverick, and definitely still was in the early days of Gavin's tenure - see his performance against Cork in 2013 which was comically bad, everything he tried was totally off the cuff like you'd see him do for Vincent's and it turned to ash

If a player did that under Guardiola they'd be whipped off quicksmart

But Connolly changed after that game, the Kerry game of 2013 was the first time we saw real peak Connolly where his natural flair was properly harnessed within a team framework

Connolly was still an integral part of Gavin's plans until he got suspended, by the time he came back he had missed a lot of football, a whole summer almost

But Gavin still turned to him when he needed him at half-time against Mayo

I don't think Gavin would have brought Connolly back in 2019 had he not believed he had something to offer, I don't think Gavin is sentimental like that at all

By encouraging personality I mean empowering players to take hold of the pattern of the game themselves and use their own brains to figure things out rather being slavish to a system

Dublin certainly had systems and defined tactics but I don't think they were ever totally slavish to them

Whereas I think Guardiola's teams tend to be

But then there's also the thing where Guardiola pulls a ridiculous unrehearsed tactical plan out of the bag in a knockout game and it confuses his players

Gavin never did that

[Captain Obvious]

Jim Gavin never discouraged personality in his players, he encouraged it

There were huge personalities in that Dublin team - Connolly, McCaffrey, McManaman, Brogan, Cooper, McMahon, Cluxton - Gavin was not afraid to bring back Connolly last year, it took balls to do that

Off the pitch and in the dressing room I have no doubt many had big personalities however the very definition of roboticism on the field was seen in McManaman,Brogan,Cooper, McMahon,Cluxton.   Cluxton remained in that mode for speeches/cup presentations.

For neutrals McCaffrey is probably Dublins most likeable player because he doesn't seem to take himself or the sport as serious as his others. Connolly was dropped because he was too much of a maverick for Gavins liking and had discipline issues. It was then smart by Jim to bring Connolly back into the panel.  A diversionary sideshow was in place to take the media's full attention off the 5 in a row campaign and before making his preplanned exit he didn't want to be known as the manager that finished Connollys county career.

Connolly was always a maverick, and definitely still was in the early days of Gavin's tenure - see his performance against Cork in 2013 which was comically bad, everything he tried was totally off the cuff like you'd see him do for Vincent's and it turned to ash

If a player did that under Guardiola they'd be whipped off quicksmart

But Connolly changed after that game, the Kerry game of 2013 was the first time we saw real peak Connolly where his natural flair was properly harnessed within a team framework

Connolly was still an integral part of Gavin's plans until he got suspended, by the time he came back he had missed a lot of football, a whole summer almost

But Gavin still turned to him when he needed him at half-time against Mayo

I don't think Gavin would have brought Connolly back in 2019 had he not believed he had something to offer, I don't think Gavin is sentimental like that at all

By encouraging personality I mean empowering players to take hold of the pattern of the game themselves and use their own brains to figure things out rather being slavish to a system

Dublin certainly had systems and defined tactics but I don't think they were ever totally slavish to them

Whereas I think Guardiola's teams tend to be

But then there's also the thing where Guardiola pulls a ridiculous unrehearsed tactical plan out of the bag in a knockout game and it confuses his players

Gavin never did that

Connollys most off the cuff moment was in the 77th minute of the 2016 All Ireland final. Dublin just needed to play keep ball instead he decided to go for a daft sideline kick. From the resulting kick out Mayo got a point and a replay.

That type of play was hardly encouraged under Gavin.

[sid waddell]

Jim Gavin never discouraged personality in his players, he encouraged it

There were huge personalities in that Dublin team - Connolly, McCaffrey, McManaman, Brogan, Cooper, McMahon, Cluxton - Gavin was not afraid to bring back Connolly last year, it took balls to do that

Off the pitch and in the dressing room I have no doubt many had big personalities however the very definition of roboticism on the field was seen in McManaman,Brogan,Cooper, McMahon,Cluxton.   Cluxton remained in that mode for speeches/cup presentations.

For neutrals McCaffrey is probably Dublins most likeable player because he doesn't seem to take himself or the sport as serious as his others. Connolly was dropped because he was too much of a maverick for Gavins liking and had discipline issues. It was then smart by Jim to bring Connolly back into the panel.  A diversionary sideshow was in place to take the media's full attention off the 5 in a row campaign and before making his preplanned exit he didn't want to be known as the manager that finished Connollys county career.

Connolly was always a maverick, and definitely still was in the early days of Gavin's tenure - see his performance against Cork in 2013 which was comically bad, everything he tried was totally off the cuff like you'd see him do for Vincent's and it turned to ash

If a player did that under Guardiola they'd be whipped off quicksmart

But Connolly changed after that game, the Kerry game of 2013 was the first time we saw real peak Connolly where his natural flair was properly harnessed within a team framework

Connolly was still an integral part of Gavin's plans until he got suspended, by the time he came back he had missed a lot of football, a whole summer almost

But Gavin still turned to him when he needed him at half-time against Mayo

I don't think Gavin would have brought Connolly back in 2019 had he not believed he had something to offer, I don't think Gavin is sentimental like that at all

By encouraging personality I mean empowering players to take hold of the pattern of the game themselves and use their own brains to figure things out rather being slavish to a system

Dublin certainly had systems and defined tactics but I don't think they were ever totally slavish to them

Whereas I think Guardiola's teams tend to be

But then there's also the thing where Guardiola pulls a ridiculous unrehearsed tactical plan out of the bag in a knockout game and it confuses his players

Gavin never did that

Connollys most off the cuff moment was in the 77th minute of the 2016 All Ireland final. Dublin just needed to play keep ball instead he decided to go for a daft sideline kick. From the resulting kick out Mayo got a point and a replay.

That type of play was hardly encouraged under Gavin.

There probably isn't a manager in the game who would have encouraged that particular piece of play

I wouldn't say it was off the cuff, it was pure confidence that "this is my ball and I'm going for it", others may call it selfishness or gloryhunting

But that's why Dermo was what he was and why he is so loved by Dublin supporters

Joe Brolly broke through one on one in the 70th minute of the 1998 Ulster final with the game level, instead of fisting it over the bar he went for goal and stuck it in

Donegal got one further point

Dara McGarty got through one on one for Sligo against Armagh in 2002 but fisted the equalising point instead of burying it in the net, Sligo lost the replay

Sometimes the percentage play is not the right one

Dublin won the replay in 2016 and Dermo stuck the penalty in the net, I think he's the only Dublin player to put away penalties in big championship matches since 1983

[Captain Obvious]

There probably isn't a manager in the game who would have encouraged that particular piece of play

I wouldn't say it was off the cuff, it was pure confidence that "this is my ball and I'm going for it", others may call it selfishness or gloryhunting

But that's why Dermo was what he was and why he is so loved by Dublin supporters

I'd think the opposite on managers. Risk taking is required in matches from players however leading a match deep into injury time is not a time to take risks.

It was as off the cuff situation as it gets. Gavin wouldn't have been too pleased especially when Connolly grabbed the ball out of Kilkennys hands and pushed him away for such a pop shot.

No such moment was repeated in the 2017 final against Mayo as Dublin played keep ball until the final whistle.

[Bronco]

This is absolute nonsense.

You're very right Sid.

My angle is more that they were on this other world level in league football that season, and when Liverpool came along and matched them blow for blow, they weren't bothered initially - but they hadnt the heart needed for a relentless drive the following season.