Anyone watch this documentary on RTE tonight.
Chilling stuff.
How does the police expect anybody to believe cameras weren't in operation at Toome RUC Station that night at the time.
Great dignity shown by the Brown family for nearly 30 years. Going to Belfast courts and being foistered off each time by a drip drip approach.
Brits think time will ease the hunger for truth and justice.
So many questions arise from that excellent show. Why was the main suspect tracked and then let go for a few hours, then tracked again the next day?
Quote from: marty34 on April 22, 2024, 11:20:45 PMGreat dignity shown by the Brown family for nearly 30 years. Going to Belfast courts and being foistered off each time by a drip drip approach.
Brits think time will ease the hunger for truth and justice.
So many questions arise from that excellent show. Why was the main suspect tracked and then let go for a few hours, then tracked again the next day?
The Brits were up to their necks in it. Probably to the highest level. They'll never let the truth come out
Quote from: straightred on April 22, 2024, 11:23:53 PMQuote from: marty34 on April 22, 2024, 11:20:45 PMGreat dignity shown by the Brown family for nearly 30 years. Going to Belfast courts and being foistered off each time by a drip drip approach.
Brits think time will ease the hunger for truth and justice.
So many questions arise from that excellent show. Why was the main suspect tracked and then let go for a few hours, then tracked again the next day?
The Brits were up to their necks in it. Probably to the highest level. They'll never let the truth come out
That's what this Legacy Bill is all about. End of.
Quote from: straightred on April 22, 2024, 11:23:53 PMQuote from: marty34 on April 22, 2024, 11:20:45 PMGreat dignity shown by the Brown family for nearly 30 years. Going to Belfast courts and being foistered off each time by a drip drip approach.
Brits think time will ease the hunger for truth and justice.
So many questions arise from that excellent show. Why was the main suspect tracked and then let go for a few hours, then tracked again the next day?
The Brits were up to their necks in it. Probably to the highest level. They'll never let the truth come out
The redactions say it all. Basturts
Stuff like this should be on the leaving cert. A very dirty war was run in the North against Nationalists and its about time people in the south especially were educated on that fact.
I think we all know what was happening back then but to see it put out there yet again how Loyalist paramilitaries acted with total impunity, aided and abetted by "state agents" both in uniform and without uniform.
To hand someone a report with almost every page blackened out tells you all you need to know about how the British Gov, the RUC/PSNI and the Army would treat any truth and reconciliation commission.
This isn't rewriting the history of the troubles here, it's now shining a light on what really went on.
A very important programme, capturing very important testimonies. Nothing but admiration for the family. I do believe that in time a lot more will be learned, but with evidence not gathered or destroyed, and some actors taking their dirty secrets to the grave, getting the whole truth could be difficult.
Not the most important issue by any means, but hearing how the two RUC men conducted themselves at the house really stuck in my throat, asking the wee girl why she was crying. Says it all.
Quote from: Sportacus on April 23, 2024, 08:22:57 AMA very important programme, capturing very important testimonies. Nothing but admiration for the family. I do believe that in time a lot more will be learned, but with evidence not gathered or destroyed, and some actors taking their dirty secrets to the grave, getting the whole truth could be difficult.
Not the most important issue by any means, but hearing how the two RUC men conducted themselves at the house really stuck in my throat, asking the wee girl why she was crying. Says it all.
Born into hate, reared to hate and joined a police force to enact hate on those not seen as their equals.
Haven't watched this but will give it a go later, can only imagine what the family are going through reliving this over again and again.
Would love to know how many agents there were used over the years
I knew a lot of the story but what got me was the State going after the Coroner, a respected senior judge, for revealing to the families the number of state agents involved.
Powerful programme but don't think anything that wasn't already in the public domain came out of it. Still very important for the family to keep this in the headlines and keep the pressure on.
Wasn't only the cameras on the police station in Toome that weren't working that night, some of the 'locals' in Bellaghy also had mysterious malfunctions.
Horrible times.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 09:28:09 AMHaven't watched this but will give it a go later, can only imagine what the family are going through reliving this over again and again.
Would love to know how many agents there were used over the years
In this case there were 25 suspects, many of whom were state agents. That's a quote from the coroner. The British are taking legal action against the same coroner for revealing that detail.
For all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
Quote from: LeoMc on April 23, 2024, 09:32:00 AMI knew a lot of the story but what got me was the State going after the Coroner, a respected senior judge, for revealing to the families the number of state agents involved.
Quote from: NAG1 on April 23, 2024, 09:33:19 AMPowerful programme but don't think anything that wasn't already in the public domain came out of it. Still very important for the family to keep this in the headlines and keep the pressure on.
Wasn't only the cameras on the police station in Toome that weren't working that night, some of the 'locals' in Bellaghy also had mysterious malfunctions.
Horrible times.
There may not have been anything new in it to anyone who knew anything about this. But, I bet many people in the South from both GAA and non-GAA backgrounds probably didn't know much about this story, if anything. In particular the level of a dirty war that was being engaged by the Brits against Northern Catholics and the steps they went to to cover this up. Right the way to the top of the British government. But sure then it was all in our heads!
The utmost respect for the Brown family for what they had to endure at that time and in the intervening years since.
Quote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
And one active member of the RIR allegedly..
Is your man Swinger Fulton still alive?
Quote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 10:39:58 AMQuote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
And one active member of the RIR allegedly..
Is your man Swinger Fulton still alive?
He is dead over 20 years ago. Rotting in hell.
Quote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 10:39:58 AMQuote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
And one active member of the RIR allegedly..
Is your man Swinger Fulton still alive?
He "hung himself" in prison
Quote from: tonto1888 on April 23, 2024, 10:54:31 AMQuote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 10:39:58 AMQuote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
And one active member of the RIR allegedly..
Is your man Swinger Fulton still alive?
He "hung himself" in prison
It always seems to be the one with the most to tell commit "suicide" .
Does make you wonder.
Like David Kelly and Epstein.
Quote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
Is Michelle O'Neill entitled to see the un-redacted versions of those reports?
As head of state, i'd imagine she is?
It's been clear for a long time that this is just another case of state collusion/involvement in loyalist murders of innocent catholics.
I remember this murder vividly - it spread fear across the GAA community in particular.
Quote from: tbrick18 on April 23, 2024, 11:21:38 AMQuote from: Pub Bore on April 23, 2024, 10:03:52 AMFor all the blather about "Michelle and Emma" and a bright future for NI, it's 2024 and the British are still trying to suppress the truth. 25 people involved in this murder, most of whom were loyalist touts, RUC and UDR members.
Excellent programme that showed the devastation visited on families during the Troubles.
Is Michelle O'Neill entitled to see the un-redacted versions of those reports?
As head of state, i'd imagine she is?
I doubt she would be able to see it.
This story is really like the one about the Stardust
Quote from: seafoid on April 23, 2024, 12:03:51 PMThis story is really like the one about the Stardust
Certainly a tragedy with an attempted coverup, but collusion in the North went much further than that.
British State forces actively provided Loyalists with the intel, support and equipment to carry these murders out and then did everything to prevent a proper investigation then and indeed ever since.
Quote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 12:11:22 PMQuote from: seafoid on April 23, 2024, 12:03:51 PMThis story is really like the one about the Stardust
Certainly a tragedy with an attempted coverup, but collusion in the North went much further than that.
British State forces actively provided Loyalists with the intel, support and equipment to carry these murders out and then did everything to prevent a proper investigation then and indeed ever since.
They also allowed stakeknife (as their agent) to torture and kill plenty, crazy place and how that system was continually allowed to operate was unbelievable
If someone made a film about it, it would go straight into the fiction department
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 12:15:17 PMQuote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 12:11:22 PMQuote from: seafoid on April 23, 2024, 12:03:51 PMThis story is really like the one about the Stardust
Certainly a tragedy with an attempted coverup, but collusion in the North went much further than that.
British State forces actively provided Loyalists with the intel, support and equipment to carry these murders out and then did everything to prevent a proper investigation then and indeed ever since.
They also allowed stakeknife (as their agent) to torture and kill plenty, crazy place and how that system was continually allowed to operate was unbelievable
If someone made a film about it, it would go straight into the fiction department
Shinners just as motivated as the British Government to make sure the full truth about Stakeknife never sees the light of day.
Looking back, it's really disturbing the things that went on. The LVF weren't active (militarily) for long but were able to engage almost seamlessly in a sectarian campaign against the Catholic population. Its two senior leaders conveniently topped, one of whom was a suspect in Sean Brown's murder. It's almost as if the LVF were allowed to exist until they outlived their usefulness.
Quote from: LC on April 23, 2024, 12:29:15 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 12:15:17 PMQuote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 12:11:22 PMQuote from: seafoid on April 23, 2024, 12:03:51 PMThis story is really like the one about the Stardust
Certainly a tragedy with an attempted coverup, but collusion in the North went much further than that.
British State forces actively provided Loyalists with the intel, support and equipment to carry these murders out and then did everything to prevent a proper investigation then and indeed ever since.
They also allowed stakeknife (as their agent) to torture and kill plenty, crazy place and how that system was continually allowed to operate was unbelievable
If someone made a film about it, it would go straight into the fiction department
Shinners just as motivated as the British Government to make sure the full truth about Stakeknife never sees the light of day.
Wise up.
State murder, terrorism and collusion is on the British state and only the British state.
Up the yard with you and your both sidisms.
They got away with it for 80 years because of People like you who refused to place blame where it was due.
The state totally at fault, recruiting people and allowing them to get away with murder, helping them and supporting them time and time again..
Mad
Can we for once keep a Thread on theme and not turn it into slanging match for political point scoring.
This was a totally innocent man murdered and the fight for his family to receive the truth goes on.
I remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Remember getting stopped in Armagh late on a Friday night on the way to a game. 4 of us in the car. Pulled to the side of the road. Brit starting getting mouthy. Starting looking to do strip searches on the side of the road. Shoes off, belts off, open trousers....go f**k yourself. An hour later still there. You often wonder....
Quote from: general_lee on April 23, 2024, 12:33:23 PMLooking back, it's really disturbing the things that went on. The LVF weren't active (militarily) for long but were able to engage almost seamlessly in a sectarian campaign against the Catholic population. Its two senior leaders conveniently topped, one of whom was a suspect in Sean Brown's murder. It's almost as if the LVF were allowed to exist until they outlived their usefulness.
Yeah, sounds like it
The RUC were total scumbags as are the current version of the PSNI. We are just sh!t on their shoes!
I watched some of it last night but after seeing Mrs. Brown talking about going up to the pitch with a torch at 2.30am and the peelers coming to the house I didnt have the stomach for the rest of it as I knew it would be another wretched story of the senseless murder of a good man. It's right up there with the most senseless of all of the killings by puppets on strings that reached all the way to Whitehall. I'll give it another go at some stage.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Quote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Is that book still available?
Quote from: marty34 on April 23, 2024, 10:04:15 PMQuote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Is that book still available?
Yeah on Amazon
👆 What he said.
Quote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Is that the one by Sean mcPhilemy?
Quote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Haven't read the Shankill butchers but did read the committee.
Certain well know car dealerships at the fore.
If I remember right they have the oath taken by orange order members in the back cover too.
Quote from: tbrick18 on April 24, 2024, 12:45:04 AMQuote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Haven't read the Shankill butchers but did read the committee.
Certain well know car dealerships at the fore.
If I remember right they have the oath taken by orange order members in the back cover too.
McPhilemy later had to retract on any involvement by those two and it cost him a few quid too from recollection. It was very messy as Trimble also took them to court too I believe. Must be 30 years ago!
Only got to watch it last night. I am fully aware of how things were, but when you see it laid out in front of you it still shocks you.
They are an amazing family with no hate in them. It's justice pure and simple they want. It's very unfortuntae that the current shower are in Westminster so long as whatever hope for something being done will be stopped by them.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
It was indeed.
"Taigs" were getting uppity, GAA teams winning things, needed to be "put back in their place".
Brit security elements obviously didn't want any moves towards ceasefire or peace either.
A positive development for one family I suppose:
https://www.irishnews.com/news/northern-ireland/laurence-maguire-to-be-prosecuted-over-plan-to-murder-rory-and-gerard-cairns-GVSCCWN5LBHMTCQOJEJI3NME3M/
Quote from: AustinPowers on April 23, 2024, 10:27:05 PMQuote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Is that the one by Sean mcPhilemy?
Yeah.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 24, 2024, 10:42:14 AMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
It was indeed.
"Taigs" were getting uppity, GAA teams winning things, needed to be "put back in their place".
Brit security elements obviously didn't want any moves towards ceasefire or peace either.
Taigs getting uppity, exercising their democratic right and voting Martin McGuinness in as Mid Ulster MP.
Man of god, Willie McCrea and his rhetoric post that loss was disgusting.
This sad case is just an example of the norm with regards to policing at that time and for decades before it.
Makes it all the more satisfying how the political landscape has changed here since that time.
The Brown family have had a lot to endure and unfortunately for them it's difficult to see how they ever get closure let alone justice.
British government, even today despite the changes, only looking out for themselves and their own rather than everyone they are meant to govern equally. I can only assume some senior tory/military names would be in the frame should the detail come out.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 24, 2024, 09:23:40 AMQuote from: tbrick18 on April 24, 2024, 12:45:04 AMQuote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Haven't read the Shankill butchers but did read the committee.
Certain well know car dealerships at the fore.
If I remember right they have the oath taken by orange order members in the back cover too.
McPhilemy later had to retract on any involvement by those two and it cost him a few quid too from recollection. It was very messy as Trimble also took them to court too I believe. Must be 30 years ago!
I think Sean got a few himself
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/mar/31/northernireland.sarahhall
Quote from: Itchy on April 24, 2024, 06:26:46 PMQuote from: Tony Baloney on April 24, 2024, 09:23:40 AMQuote from: tbrick18 on April 24, 2024, 12:45:04 AMQuote from: paddyjohn on April 23, 2024, 09:11:45 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on April 23, 2024, 03:00:44 PMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 23, 2024, 02:19:48 PMI remember at the time it sent chills through the whole nationalist community. Just listening to Talkback and Trevor Birney talking about and how attacking someone like Sean Brown was a deliberate ploy as he was decent and could not be associated with any paramilitary organisation. It was purely to put fear and Terror through a whole community by striking at its centre.
We had just won the AI and had beaten Bellaghy in the Ulster final before Christmas 1996. There was a crew of us living in Belfast and we had close relationships on and off the field with a lot of the Bellaghy lads. It struck hard. I remember travelling home at the time and we regularly changed out pick up spots etc. Going to matches in Lurgan and that was always a concern as well. How the f**k was that normal?
Unfortunately we normalised it at the time and adopted
My dad handed me the book The Shankill butchers when it came out
Made me read it before I headed out that weekend, needless to say that put the willies up me for that period of heading out!
Absolutely horrible book. Really tough. I read the book called committee. Really opened my eyes as a teenager growing up.
Only policeman you trust is a dead one.
Haven't read the Shankill butchers but did read the committee.
Certain well know car dealerships at the fore.
If I remember right they have the oath taken by orange order members in the back cover too.
McPhilemy later had to retract on any involvement by those two and it cost him a few quid too from recollection. It was very messy as Trimble also took them to court too I believe. Must be 30 years ago!
I think Sean got a few himself
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/mar/31/northernireland.sarahhall
Cheers Itchy. Must go back and read about. I think Amazon were involved at one stage too.
You will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.
Quote from: Harold Disgracey on April 24, 2024, 11:02:09 PMYou will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.
Wasn't aware of the Portadown situation, but thinking back on it there was genuine fear of the LVF across the catholic community. Watching King Rat and his cohorts patrol the crowds at Garvaghy always sent chills. There was that feeling that they could and would do what they wanted. Pure evil.
I know Wright eventually finished up in prison, but I can't remember what the charge was.
His killing in prison, also feels like it could have had a level of facilitating about it - perhaps to keep him quiet?
Quote from: tbrick18 on April 25, 2024, 09:48:02 AMQuote from: Harold Disgracey on April 24, 2024, 11:02:09 PMYou will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.
Wasn't aware of the Portadown situation, but thinking back on it there was genuine fear of the LVF across the catholic community. Watching King Rat and his cohorts patrol the crowds at Garvaghy always sent chills. There was that feeling that they could and would do what they wanted. Pure evil.
I know Wright eventually finished up in prison, but I can't remember what the charge was.
His killing in prison, also feels like it could have had a level of facilitating about it - perhaps to keep him quiet?
Happy enough with the outcome of that facilitation. Crip died young but he performed an important task.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 25, 2024, 08:27:29 PMQuote from: tbrick18 on April 25, 2024, 09:48:02 AMQuote from: Harold Disgracey on April 24, 2024, 11:02:09 PMYou will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.
Wasn't aware of the Portadown situation, but thinking back on it there was genuine fear of the LVF across the catholic community. Watching King Rat and his cohorts patrol the crowds at Garvaghy always sent chills. There was that feeling that they could and would do what they wanted. Pure evil.
I know Wright eventually finished up in prison, but I can't remember what the charge was.
His killing in prison, also feels like it could have had a level of facilitating about it - perhaps to keep him quiet?
Happy enough with the outcome of that facilitation. Crip died young but he performed an important task.
One rat killing another.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 25, 2024, 08:27:29 PMQuote from: tbrick18 on April 25, 2024, 09:48:02 AMQuote from: Harold Disgracey on April 24, 2024, 11:02:09 PMYou will have noticed that the LVF were generally unable to carry out any attacks in the Garvaghy Road and Tunnel areas of Portadown. They did once try to shoot up the Tír na nÓg clubhouse one night but apparently the gunman was shaking so much he missed the building. Billy Wright and his cohorts were very much protected and enabled by the RUC, everyone in Portadown was aware of this hence the RUC couldn't guarantee easy access and exit from any of the nationalist areas of town. As an aside Robert Hamill's mother died this week without seeing any justice for her son's murder.
Wasn't aware of the Portadown situation, but thinking back on it there was genuine fear of the LVF across the catholic community. Watching King Rat and his cohorts patrol the crowds at Garvaghy always sent chills. There was that feeling that they could and would do what they wanted. Pure evil.
I know Wright eventually finished up in prison, but I can't remember what the charge was.
His killing in prison, also feels like it could have had a level of facilitating about it - perhaps to keep him quiet?
Happy enough with the outcome of that facilitation. Crip died young but he performed an important task.
Crip was a sc**bag, killed a man for not letting him into a bar.
Watched this last night, I was born in mid 80s so was quite young when troubles were finishing up thankfully but the show would make you angry with how some of the families where treated.Really inhuman how you could go into someone's home to tell them their husband/father has been shot dead for no other reason than his association to a sport and ask why the child is crying.Similar to the loughinisland case where the police were clearly involved in collision.
Inqests 'adviseable' into Mc Gurks Bar bombing also.
One of the victim's grandsons, Ciarán Mac Airt, has researched this really well over a long period of time.
I'd advise anyone to read up on it also.
Quote from: statto on April 26, 2024, 06:55:18 AMWatched this last night, I was born in mid 80s so was quite young when troubles were finishing up thankfully but the show would make you angry with how some of the families where treated.Really inhuman how you could go into someone's home to tell them their husband/father has been shot dead for no other reason than his association to a sport and ask why the child is crying.Similar to the loughinisland case where the police were clearly involved in collision.
Watched it last night on Youtube in the states myself. Wife was bawling at the end - couldn't understand how, where, why this would happen. As brokencrossbar states, we lived through and endured some wild f**king times. Barbaric stuff. No rest for Bridie Brown.
British state still at it:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-68855354
Quote from: johnnycool on April 23, 2024, 12:11:22 PMQuote from: seafoid on April 23, 2024, 12:03:51 PMThis story is really like the one about the Stardust
Certainly a tragedy with an attempted coverup, but collusion in the North went much further than that.
British State forces actively provided Loyalists with the intel, support and equipment to carry these murders out and then did everything to prevent a proper investigation then and indeed ever since.
The details are different but the contempt for ordinary decent people is not. . The North has an extra layer of political violence of course but the core dynamic is the same imo.
There was no RUC or MI5 involvement in the Kerry Babies story.
I haven't watched the documentary yet but my mother was from Bellaghy. In the 1970s the Orangemen would go out of their way to parade through a Catholic housing estate even though they knew it was Catholic.
Quote from: Norm-Peterson on May 02, 2024, 04:21:47 PMI haven't watched the documentary yet but my mother was from Bellaghy. In the 1970s the Orangemen would go out of their way to parade through a Catholic housing estate even though they knew it was Catholic.
In the 1970s?
That still happens today.
Rasharkin jumps out at me!
A lot of towns in the 6 counties.
Flags and marches in up to 70 - 100% -'nationalist' towns and villages.
Strange people.
Quote from: marty34 on May 02, 2024, 11:48:25 PMA lot of towns in the 6 counties.
Flags and marches in up to 70 - 100% -'nationalist' towns and villages.
Strange people.
Dogs pissing around 'their' territories....
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 02, 2024, 11:00:39 PMRasharkin jumps out at me!
Used to happen in Dunloy but seems to have been nipped in the bud. Ridiculous that this was happening.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 02, 2024, 11:00:39 PMRasharkin jumps out at me!
Still happens in Kircubbin on the 12th morning I believe.
The local bands from Portavogie, Cloughy etc would get out of their buses and parade around one of the local estates, almost 90% nationalist and then get back on their busses to the main parade wherever.
There used to be a band "from" Portaferry do the same, but they've dwindled away to next to nothing and I don't think any of them are local to Portaferry at all now. All a bit of a sad spectacle at this point.
I'm pretty sure Castlewellan has been used recently, definitely has in the past.
Dungiven another strange one they have to get marching through
I think in a way, the OO marching in these towns and villages is people don't care any more. No major flashpoints now apart from the interfaces and urban areas.
Nationalism has won. It's all about the demographics now and that has swung hugely in the past 5 years and in 10 years say, it'll be massive.
These parades are more to be pitied than laughed at. They know their place now in the small rual areas, especially west of the Bann. A tiddly wee band with a few old men in bowler hats marching behind.
A sad sight.
Quote from: marty34 on May 03, 2024, 07:03:11 PMI think in a way, the OO marching in these towns and villages is people don't care any more. No major flashpoints now apart from the interfaces and urban areas.
Nationalism has won. It's all about the demographics now and that has swung hugely in the past 5 years and in 10 years say, it'll be massive.
These parades are more to be pitied than laughed at. They know their place now in the small rual areas, especially west of the Bann. A tiddly wee band with a few old men in bowler hats marching behind.
A sad sight.
This is exactly it. Where I'm from
Would have been 80% unionist when my da was growing up, but there were no flags, my da and his mates used to take them down. Now the town is about 70% nationalist and we have flags that go up in June and don't come down to Christmas. Thing is no one my generations cares. Bit of a laugh for ha as we go to our work in decent jobs with decent education.
I used to take my dad away for weekends every so often, headed to Derry one time, was a late Saturday afternoon and heading into town, at the corner of the street when pulling into town, the Lundy burning was happening in a street we passed, I said to the taxi man was it a bit controversial, he didn't give it a second and said, no one is bothered, let them at it and soon enough it'll disappear.
That's gotta happen, kids will eventually go "WTF" and it will die a death
Was refreshing (at the time) to hear.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 03, 2024, 11:16:42 PMI used to take my dad away for weekends every so often, headed to Derry one time, was a late Saturday afternoon and heading into town, at the corner of the street when pulling into town, the Lundy burning was happening in a street we passed, I said to the taxi man was it a bit controversial, he didn't give it a second and said, no one is bothered, let them at it and soon enough it'll disappear.
That's gotta happen, kids will eventually go "WTF" and it will die a death
Was refreshing (at the time) to hear.
If only we'd known you were in Derry. We'd a bought you a pint or two