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Jesus man it was a generalisation, the point being that the vast majority of games would involve counties that aren't that far away.

OK, I know it was only a generalisation, just that not that long ago I had to do a signficantly longer trip than that on a fairly regular basis for a while!

How and why would you do that?

By that I was just referring to something along the lines of the McKenna, O'Byrne, etc, which would serve as a chance to try out players etc with the old National League gone.

TWhy play a league and then give the second placed teams after all the games have been played the opportunity to actually win it, likewise for the bottom two? This is again a nonsense GAA solution to a non-existant problem. You play a league and the top team at the end of all the games wins it and the bottom one or two get relegated, nice and simple.

I didn't suggest that! By "top teams" I mean the winners of each of the division's 2 groups. Not the top two teams in each group.

While I would agree with the idea of only the top teams playing for the championship, that hasn't a hope of being passed in any Congress, and though I know this is only a bit of winter internet chit chat, any proposal worth talking about has to have some chance sometime in the future of being passed. Cutting half the teams in Ireland out of a chance to win Sam just wouldn't work, sure some of the hurling lads are trying to get more of the weaker counties back into the AI where their only role will be to provide more rounds.

But they do all get a chance to win Sam. They only have to do well enough in the round-robin phase of the championship. and it's that which decides who qualifies for the last 16. I think you're right to say that it would be unlikely to get consensus in the near future, but let's be realistic, are the champions league, and other structures that lads are suggesting likely either? I feel this would be a good structure if not as politically palatable as it could be.

[provincial tournaments]

There would be a lot of advantages to this.

Start with provincial tournaments, with each side getting enough games to warm up.

Then league phase: 2 divisions each divided into 2 groups. Top and bottom teams play off to decide titles / promotion/ relegation.

Finally knock-out: the first-division sides, i.e. teams that finished in the league-phase top 16, play straight knock-out for the All-Ireland.

The draw for the first round is seeded according to finishing position in the league phase. Open draw from then on, although in the quarter-finals the league champions (or, if they lost the first round, the team that beat them) could be given home advantage with the choice of any large enough venue).   

The second tier involves the ones who didn't make the league top 16, in a similar format to the first tier. Promoted sides are into the first division of next year's league. So for instance a team newly promoted to the top 16 in the league phase could theoretically be relegated to the second tier, win it in the knock-out, and be back in the top 16 for next year's league phase.



It's a fairly simple format, and gives every team a fair chance with no geographical inequalities. With only 4 knockout rounds and no back door, it would take less time to play off and alleviate the fixture problem, yet more of the games would be meaningful.

it would take you no more than 3 hours to drive between any 2 points in the country so there is no logical reason to create a competition based on geography.

I still believe that joining the league and the championship is the best way forward but I'm open to any suggestions as long as they don't involve retaining the provincial championships (unless they're played as a stand alone competition) because that is a flawed competition from the start.

No more than 3 hours??? What are you talking about?

The Connacht and Munster championships should be grouped in some way, with only one winner joining the Ulster and Leinster champions at a particular level.

How about 3 proviinical ch'ships (Ulster, Leinster and Connacht / Munster)?

FCUK OFF with this crap. 
It's not too long ago that Ulster couldnt put out any decent team while Leinster is at a pretty low level the last few years.
I didnt read the rest of your post so I dont know how good or bad the rest of you r ides were.

And what have each of Connacht and Munster had in living memory? 2 consisently good teams and that's it in most years. But it's not just because of the quality of sides, as you might realise if you read the rest. They have too few teams and are utterly  dominated by duopolies. 1992, 17 yearrs ago, was the ONLY YEAR Kerry / Cork didn' win Munster since 1935! Connacht is not quite as bad mainly thanks to Roscommon (the others have 5 titles between them in the entire history of the GAA) but the Rossies still have only the two All-Irelands from the 1940s, and Galway and Mayo have the vast majority of the Connacht wins. The combination suggested would be far more ineresting, ensure everyone starts at the same time and allow a much more sensible and interesting overall championship structure as outlined above.

The Connacht and Munster championships should be grouped in some way, with only one winner joining the Ulster and Leinster champions at a particular level.

How about 3 proviinical ch'ships (Ulster, Leinster and Connacht / Munster)? The 8 top teams from the league in each of the 3 play in the provincial championships whiie the remainder contest the Tommy Murphy in a format that gives each Murphy team 2 games. Murphy champions and sides knocked out of the provincial  play to join the provincial champions in he semis.

Home advantages (for all games other than finals and All-Ireland quarters / semis) to go to the side that finished higher in the league, except that you have to go away if facing a team more than 1 division below you.

It could be played off reasonably quickly with this sample schedule (one or two rest periods being thrown in if necessary for a break, club games and hurling). Up to the All-Ireland series, which would include only 5 teams, there would only be 7 weekends on which you could possibly be playing even with replays allowed for the provincial semis and finals.

Week 1 Provincial QFs
Week 2 Provincial Semis. Also Rd 1 of Qualifier Cup involving the 12 first week losers.
Wk 3 Qualifier Rd 2: = the 6 1st Rd Qualifier winners plus the 6 Provincial SF losers.
Wk 4 Qualifier Round 3 = the 6 2nd Round Qualifier winners.
Wk 5 Qualifier Cup semi-finals = the 3 3rd Round winners plus Murphy champs.
Wk 6 Qualifier Cup final.
Wik 7 Quualiifier Cup champions plus the 3 provincial runners-up (the provincial finals having been played in wks 4 or 5)
Wk 8 All-Ireland Quarter-Final = the 2 winners from Wk 7
The winnners of the single quarter-final go forward to the semis with the 3 provinciial champions

So the provincial championships wiould be less devalued and more interesting. The provincial losers still have a back door but it's much tougher to get back to the same stage as the proviincial champions.  The weaker teams have more of a chance for competitive games but still have a guaranteed 2 games and a shot at the All-Ireland. Most teams have something they can have a realistic crack at whether provincial championship, Murphy Cup or Qualifier Cup (whatever name it woluld be given)  The fixture problems are alleviated (especially if you combine this with some of the club-level rules others have suggested)v about as much as they're going to be without adopting a league format.

Provinicial championships would then become as meaningless as the league  is now, so no you wouldn't have 2 competitive exciting torunaments or the provincial tradition being kept.

Local rivalries I think will always keep provincial championships interesting. I cant see a day where games such as Dublin/Meath will ever be completely meaningless. Plus if you were to use it to decide seeding's for a champions league style AI then I could defiantly see both completions being competitive.
[/quote]

Local rivalry on its own is not going to be enough to prevent significant reduction in the interest of a game if it has no bearing on the All-Ireland so you would need the incentive. That's evident from league games. We already have complaints about the provinicials being devalued and taken less seriously with the back door, let alone a system where the winners have no more advantage for the All-Ireland than a side knocked out in the preliminary round. As regards the seeding system, how would it work with the different numbers of teams in each province and some Munster and Connacht teams having automatic spots in the semi-finals?

I agree, a big day out in Croke Park can mean a hell of a lot of some counties and Limerick do have a tough route, but a new structure doesn't mean they'll get their day. 

Nor should it, but why should some counties be forever forced to face a harder/easier route than others, why should Mayo and Galway only have to be one of the 2 best teams out of 5 to get to the business end of the championship while your own county have to be one of the two best out of 12?

And once again, the provincial is becoming uninteresting now with the back-door. However the National League was always uninteresting even though id go to a lot of the games to see how teams are getting on (but thats really all it has to offer). So why not play the provincial in its place? That way you've two competitive, exciting tournaments and the important provincial tradition is kept.

Provinicial championships would then become as meaningless as the league  is now, so no you wouldn't have 2 competitive exciting torunaments or the provincial tradition being kept.

I expect Hanley, Dyas and Begley to be home very soon.

Dyas has already told Collingwood he is returning to Ireland.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/clarke-opts-for-ireland-over-the-pies/2009/09/24/1253385082164.html

Why has Tommy Walsh been dropped?

I thought it was the switch of him out to centre half forward that had helped disrupt the Dubs kickouts? (I didn't see the game just heard bits and pieces) Did he not play well in that match?
Is he not a far better player than Darren O'Sullivan?

Is he injured?

The answers to your 3 questions..no he wasn't brilliant against Dublin, he is not far better than Darran and he is not injured.

Another good news story for the GAA - return of another of our stars.

One of our stars? Getting a bit carried away there aren't we?

Scrap the national league, run the provincials as a "seeding" competition.  Pick 8 groups of 4.  Home and away.  Top two go into 2nd round a la Champions League. Last 16.  Bottom 2 go into Tommy Murphy.  Guaranteed at least 8 competitive games each year, easier to structure.  Can work around the clubs. You could structure a proper on and off season. 

I see the advantages but here are some problems

Provincial championships further devalued with interest and attendances declining  There just wouldn't be a big enough reward or incentive to win them.

As another poster pointed out, groups like Kerry, Mayo, Antrim, Carlow aren't going to attract great interest or attendances.  Remember the lack of interest when the hurling qualifiers had groups of four?  That kind of group stage could end up like the hurling did.  I think people would feel the championship didn't really get going until the last 16, and the provincial championships and groups would attract relatively  little interest from the general public.

This isn't a point about the intrinsic merits of the idea, but radically changing the format like that will likely get significant opposition.  One thing about the opening suggestion of the thread of qualifiers before provinces is that it's not a major break with tradition that would make many unhappy.   It's actually closer to the traditional championship than the current situation.

Sure that can and does happen all the time as things stand - that's not Mickey Harte's point.   He was just suggesting something which would increase the reward for and incentive to win your provincial championship   It probably would help and is an attempt at reducing some of the same problems as my proposal which opened the thread, but IMO wouldn't do it as well as my suggestion of simply changing the schedule so that qualifiers would be before the provincial championships.

Not a bad idea in principle.

To incorpoate it though you'd have to still adress the fixture schedule. One of the issues I have is that it takes 5 weeks before the first round of Ulster is finished. Why they can't play double fixture on some weekends is beyond me.

Also, in that proposal, isn't a team that progress's in both provincal and qualifier route going to have a lot of matches to play compared to a team that focus's on one route? Mayo/Galway won't have near the games that Dublin would have.

You're right, it doesn't solve the fixtures, but it's not intended to solve it or be a perfect situation.  The fixture problem would be no worse and a lot of other problems would be addressed with this relatively small change which wouldn't bother the traditionalist too much.  To be honest I don't think it is possible to solve the fixture problem without much more major changes which a lot of people would oppose.

The point about Mayo / Galway vs Dublin is a good one.  Mayo / Galway would have a minimum of 3 games to reach a semi  (Connacht semi and final plus quarter) while Dublin if they came through both sides of the draw would have a minimum of 6 (Leinster QF, SF, Final plus 3 qualifier games and no All-Ireland quarter).     This is a slight disadvantage, but I don't think it's a huge disimprovement from the current situation to be honest.  After all it's already quite possible for a Leinster team to play 6 games to get an Alll-Ireland quarter-final to a Connacht team's 2.  Or think of Tyrone's 2005 schedule.   I don't think it's enough of a disadvantage to outweigh the problems that the change in schedule could solve.

What would you think of playing the qualifiers BEFORE the provincial championships?  

The qualifiers would be a 32-county (since London have opted to play in qualifiers and NY and KK haven't) open draw competition.  The 4 teams that came through could meet the provincial champions in the All-Ireland quarter-finals.   If a team came through the qualifiers and also won their provincial championships they would go straight into the semis.  

Good idea in theory but you've got an uneven number if only one team wins the provincial championship and came through the qualifiers.

No you don't.  Think about it for a moment.  There would be 3 other provincial champions and 3 other qualifier teams.  When those 6 have played their quarter-finals you have
3 + 1 = 4 teams in the semi-finals.

This might solve a lot of the problems people have with the back door while still giving every team two championship games and not taking any longer to play the championship off.  There's the possiblity of very interesting qualifier clashes.  Provincial championships' meaning would return. It would once again be genuinely do or die in the provincial championship for almost all the teams.   Even the 4 who already have quarter-final places would have the incentive to win in the provinces of (1)  getting a semi-final spot and (2) if they lost early in the provincial championship they could have a long wiat with no games before playing a provincal champion.  It would also reduce the inequalities between provinces because all teams would have to start conditioning etc around the same time if they wanted to be near their best for the qualifiers.  And no more of provincial champions not getting a fair deal with no second chance etc.

[This isn't an essential part of my suggestion but while I'm at it home quarter-finals would make sure that the provincial champs get the advantage and have an incentive.  Counties that didn't have a large enough home ground could have their pick of which venue they wanted to play the quarter-final at.  If this was felt to be an unfair advantage to teams that have large home grounds every provincial champion could have the choice of where to play from any ground considered large enough except one in their own county]