Antrim Football Thread

[Milltown Row2]

Jez, skull development squads meet about once every couple of weeks and IMO a waste of bloody time for everybody. I'm talking about management, not coaching

What is it about coaching a team that leaves one unfulfilled as a person as opposed to managing a team?

There can be a person who is best qualified as a coach and another as a coach... But I see that at senior level in fairness. Having taken all manner of teams within my club, the most demanding was the under 12's!!!! Four years of organising tournament s heading to tournaments playing the league games and keeping parents happy to lol, and all this on your own. Give me senior post any day

[Jeepers Creepers]

As you say, that's you. But some folk are more passionate and in some cases very ambitious and need or aspire to be involved in football at that level, if their own club has decided to ignore their approach, you would agree that the alternative is to manage another club team?

I think it comes down to who you are and how much your club is in your heart or not, regardless of how many juvenile teams you have taken in the past with your own club. 

It seems to me that there are two motivations for people taking other club teams and both can be very much intertwined:
a) Money (prostitute syndrome)
b) Ego

Not one penny would take me away from my club and I would never in a trillion years take another club team.  I'd sooner take our P1 teams than take another club's senior teams.  Why? Because that's what we do or supposed to rather.  If you are looking outside of your club for a challenge then get involved at county level.  Clubs are about a collection of human beings willing to get together, represent their communities to make them better places to live through the aims and objectives of the association.  Put simply in my book, that means to give your full commitment to the club (and county) and to develop good people at all age groups from P1 to Senior and when you have completed one full year of doing that, do it again and again.

Wanting a so-called 'Challenge' is cover for wanting an your ego massaged or in your case it sounds like you're throwing your dummy out of the pram regardless of what you termed as

no hard feelings

Ambition to me is code for Individualism.

What if they have ambitions for county management one day?

[NAG1]

Lads just to clear it up the fella in question managed/coached stinsons minors this last few years, was involved with portglenone u21s and reserves also and last year was part of the successful intermediate championship winning management team!
Natural progression would be to take the reins as senior manager!
I for one don't blame him for going elsewhere to gain senior management experience.
The question for some clubs is what would u pay for success?
The man portglenone installed as manager was turned down by his original native club as he was looking too much expenses!
Who is right and who is wrong?!
I don't buy it that a sponsor is payin a manager as his services r still come at a cost! Did the se sponsor think the previous manager who got the team promoted and won int champ wasn't worth it anymore, is the tail wagging the dog in this instance?!

This sentence alone would put me off even talking to said person about becoming involved in my club at any level.

Lets just be frank open and honest about it for a change, if clubs werent offering the money to these mercenaries then there would be very few making the journey around the circuit in Ulster to do these jobs.

That's the plain and simple fact, you can dress it up any way you want to. He wants to test himself as a coach, he wants to have progression at the top level etc etc etc - End of the day it boils down to the brown envelope at the end of the session.

[imtommygunn]

he who?

do you generalise much?

is every outside manager looking money? are you sure about every one?

[Na Glinntí Glasa]

Lads just to clear it up the fella in question managed/coached stinsons minors this last few years, was involved with portglenone u21s and reserves also and last year was part of the successful intermediate championship winning management team!
Natural progression would be to take the reins as senior manager!
I for one don't blame him for going elsewhere to gain senior management experience.
The question for some clubs is what would u pay for success?
The man portglenone installed as manager was turned down by his original native club as he was looking too much expenses!
Who is right and who is wrong?!
I don't buy it that a sponsor is payin a manager as his services r still come at a cost! Did the se sponsor think the previous manager who got the team promoted and won int champ wasn't worth it anymore, is the tail wagging the dog in this instance?!

This sentence alone would put me off even talking to said person about becoming involved in my club at any level.

Lets just be frank open and honest about it for a change, if clubs werent offering the money to these mercenaries then there would be very few making the journey around the circuit in Ulster to do these jobs.

That's the plain and simple fact, you can dress it up any way you want to. He wants to test himself as a coach, he wants to have progression at the top level etc etc etc - End of the day it boils down to the brown envelope at the end of the session.

thats where the GAA is going badly wrong. a club who pays someone to take their team has to look hard at itself and the lack of confidence it has in its existing coaches. i dont mind a team fund raising to get some additional help for equipment, sessions with someone etc but for some one to take them? not a chance.

our club will not pay for anyone to manage them and i hope this continues. there's plenty of good people within each club that if given a chance could do a job, we should never look beyond those in our clubs who want to do a job. to go outside is, well an insult to members.

[shawshank]

Interesting debate, can I provide you all with a very good example of a club that has used outside managers exclusively to get success, and the reason it seems to me that they used outside managers, and very good outside men, was because the quality of coaches they had in the club was not up to the mark. This process of developing their senior team has taken fifteen years and the result has been an Ulster senior club football title i.e. Slaughtneil Why they hadn't the quality is another debate, but as a result of this approach they now have players at the upper end of their careers who when they retire will be able to take their own club, due to the expertise that they have been fortunate to have experienced. The Slaughtneil model that has reaped big rewards.

[theskull1]

The Slaughtneil model that has reaped big rewards.

How'd did all the other teams who applied the same model get on? 

No ones doubting that a great coach benefits a team, but lets not be thinking that the primary reason the outside man is doing it is so he can develop and grow as a coach. They see the demand in the marketplace that has developed and they fulfill the desire of those clubs who think they can spend their way to success. It works out that way for some, but lets not be thinking that the means justifies the end.   

[paddyjohn]

Relax.. Jim & Joe will sort everything out and all peace will be restored until somebody appeals about the junior hurling or the junior football championship and so called big teams in that having to be kicked out as the wee teams aren't gettin a chance!!

like yourself your point is irrelevant.

Hardy irrelevant. It's another example of the confusion that reigns every year with championships and leagues at the hands of the county board with the rumours of competitions changing.

Maybe I should ask you before I post in future?

[bannside]

This is definitely an interesting debate. Of the eight clubs I know of in Antrim division one, 75% are paying "expenses" to outside managers. I'd go as far as to say that is the norm across the whole country.

In a lot of cases these managers were " head hunted" by clubs. The man we got didn't come to us - we went to him. He told us what he needed in lieu of the sacrifices he would make to do the job, and we thought it was reasonable in terms with our ambitions, and a local sponsor stepped up to ease the pain.


Of course there are many who are still against paying anything, and would prefer a local who was prepared to do it for nothing.

That's the crux of what needs to be a national debate. At the minute what we do is reflective of the vast majority of clubs.

Now there is also the case of the manager who sees his ability as a trade which can earn money in the free market, and others who realise that the only way to get a crack at a really big job (like a county job) then maybe the best way to do this is deliver a big championship win with a big club that might not be your own. There's all sorts of reasons why people manage outside their own clubs. Money yes, also ego, pride, enjoyment, etc.

But I'd say most of all its the challenge you present to yourself after the pride of being appointed has settled down.Can I do this this or not? The feeling you get when you do is memorable.

[ck]

As you say, that's you. But some folk are more passionate and in some cases very ambitious and need or aspire to be involved in football at that level, if their own club has decided to ignore their approach, you would agree that the alternative is to manage another club team?

I think it comes down to who you are and how much your club is in your heart or not, regardless of how many juvenile teams you have taken in the past with your own club. 

It seems to me that there are two motivations for people taking other club teams and both can be very much intertwined:
a) Money (prostitute syndrome)
b) Ego

Not one penny would take me away from my club and I would never in a trillion years take another club team.  I'd sooner take our P1 teams than take another club's senior teams.  Why? Because that's what we do or supposed to rather.  If you are looking outside of your club for a challenge then get involved at county level.  Clubs are about a collection of human beings willing to get together, represent their communities to make them better places to live through the aims and objectives of the association.  Put simply in my book, that means to give your full commitment to the club (and county) and to develop good people at all age groups from P1 to Senior and when you have completed one full year of doing that, do it again and again.

Wanting a so-called 'Challenge' is cover for wanting an your ego massaged or in your case it sounds like you're throwing your dummy out of the pram regardless of what you termed as

no hard feelings

Ambition to me is code for Individualism.

Steady on! A few good points in here but a bit extreme.
There's no right or wrong here. There's undoubtedly the money grabbers/egos who are motivated by the wrong thing. And there is the loyal club man who is as genuine as the day is long. There are loads in between that circumstances have dictated why they are were they are. In the case of my own club we HAD to get an outside man as there literally was no-one internally suited/qualified or interested.
You can have your ideals but when you are faced with the prospect of not having a manager then ideals can slip.

[Catch and Kick]

I think many  of the comments about outside managers are misplaced.
Sometimes it is because of jealousy (I could do a better job!), sometimes regret (hadn't the guts to put head above the parapet) and often because of a desire to cling to principles - no were is this a more common trait than in the six counties...nothing worse than a principled man..
The reasons for appointing outside managers could be any of:

The outsider is an excellent coach who would benefit the team long term and not just in regard to winning one county title.
The players no longer are responding to the same old voices in the club - a fresh approach is needed.
There are no suitable candidates within the club. The games and preparation have moved on and many of our internal coaches have not.
Many senior players have experienced top coaching in university and other sports; they know what is required and are not prepared to commit the most valuable resource of all, their time, to 'a mickey mouse' set up.

Why would a GAA coach go to another club?
Experience
To Improve
because he has been too long involved and wants a change.
Few bob.

Why would a club pay an outside coach?
To cover his expenses.
To cover his time - he can't be expected to do it for nothing, he has a skill set that many think they have but their track record doesn't back that up!

What payment are we talking about?
In most cases these coaches are genuine and are happy for a very modest return.
I know some who have coached outside teams for naught.
Others are pure money grabbers.
Some are highly successful and given a decent squad and make massive difference.

I've spent my life coaching in my own club from juvenile to senior, at county level and never received a penny. I find the lazy comment of posters and journalists (esp Eugene mcGee) hard to listen to. They make so many assumptions.

[bannside]

Brilliant Post C&K. Just about sums it up.

[Milltown Row2]

Would it be the difference for us having outside managers?? We won all Ireland with home grown manager..... But we've won many a championship with 'outside' managers.... We've never had hurling manager from outside...

[ck]

The association has rules for a reason. The payment of managers is illegal because the membership agreed it to be wrong and unfair. When we use terms like, "it's ok having ideals but..." then its a slippery slope.

We all like to win but it goes against who we are and what we are about. Is it win at all costs at the expense of the club stalwart who sells 20 lottos per week or is it about pride in YOUR club? Winning and losing with YOUR club from the corner forward to the manager to the chairperson.

Once one club pays one manager to manage them while another wants to do it the right way, then it becomes unfair and wrong especially if the first club has a bigger financial income.

Of course, at intercounty and in structural levels of the GAA, they have set down horrible precedents but if values and ideals can't be copperfastened and held up at community level then we are f.ucked!!

Slippery slope or not, what would you suggest our club do when we had no manager? No-one stepped forward despite advertising, head hunting, begging ex players. No-one had the time, no-one had the interest. Had we not offered expenses, we would be managerless. Fact!

[FullForward72]

Interesting posts, I think everyone knows that even ourselves have taken into appointing outside managers for the last few years and it has reaped serious dividends for us, its ok having plenty of mentors/coaches/juveniles but what if you dont??? Our senior team had to get by for the best part of 15 years with very little kids coming through, alot of our players had never been coached properly before so we were stuck in the doldrums as a result. 2 years ago we brought in an outside manager and in 2 years we contested a beringer cup final and a championship final, last year with another outside manager we won the championship and beat teams in the league we would have never imagined beating 5 years previous.

Having outside managers has showed us how far we were behind and it has give us the kick up the backside we've needed for so long, watching from the sidelines I feel indebted to the 2 managers who have came in and progressed us so quickly in 3 years, as regards to if they were paid or not i couldnt tell you, im only a spectator!

But outside managers arent all that bad!