China Coronavirus

[Angelo]

All I've said is that there are some interesting observations from the data presented. That is raw data on death rates in the 26. It's an interesting observation that excess rates have not really seen a great rise and that death rates in April were similar to flu seasons in January in prior years.

As you never tire of reminding us, we do not lockdown for flu. Yet deaths from Covid in April in the middle of a lockdown were greater than the worst January without a lockdown. This reflects that Covid was much worse and the reaction was appropriate. January is sometimes a bad month, but the traditional winter season is only about 6 weeks, without the lockdown not only would Covid have killed more in April, but also in May, in June, in July, in August, in September and in October.

That's actually just not true.

I posted something up yesterday which analysed death rates in the 26 from the main flu season month in January and it found the no of deaths in April of this year was very similar with bad flu seasons in January of some prior years.

So what does that data reflect?

The first wave was an outlier, we are seeing huge falls in fatality rates across Europe now.

The message you seem to be transmitting is that any death from flu is acceptable and any death from Covid is unacceptable and the far-reaching consequences of lockdowns on the physical, mental, social and financial wellbeing are completely irrelevant.

[Angelo]

Those people with Covid tunnel vision have absolutely no interest in looking at the consequences of using lockdowns and restrictions to fight it, maybe you should look at the bigger picture for once.

Current case fatality rate here is 4% (time weighted for day of contraction).

I was going to say that is overly pessimistic and take 1% instead. But, if we followed your course (which you don't outline, but the assumption must be that it is light touch), then the health services would collapse and you would see 4% as a minimum death rate over the long term

Then with your world of minimal restrictions, how many get the virus? Half the population before herd immunity effects kick in? (Half being optimistic, usual thought train is around 70% of populace needs to be immune.)

So, half the population of the north is 1.8 million. Half of that is 900k. 4% of that is 36k people.

In 2018, 15,922 people died in the north. You are advocating doubling the annual death rate in response to worries over intangible forecasts elsewhere.


Big picture? You don't have a f**king clue. Not surprising the man that cannot grasp the difference between fractions and percentages cannot play with big numbers.

It's not my fault you don't understand the figures so the arrogance of you telling someone else they don't have a clue when you are displaying that exact trait yourself is something else.

I'm not advocating doubling the death total.

April is an outlier. Take April out of the equation and it's a steady enough year in terms of deaths. All across Europe Covid cases are doubling and trebling yet fatality rates are falling in double digit multiples, in the 30s and 40s in the likes of France and Belgium. So how you can come up with those figures is flabbergasting.

At the rate we would need the health service to creak we would probably need to be getting 2k positive cases a day from 4-5 tests, the positive rate on tests is currently 20%, we would need to go to 40% for that to happen. New daily case rates have been steady now for the past 2-3 week which means active cases should stagnate and not rise unless we start returning 2k positive tests a day.

There's absolutely no basis for a 4% rise in death rates. At present we have 0.11% of Covid Active Cases in ICU (not 4%, 0.11%). To reach ICU capacity we probably need an additional 11k in ACTIVE cases in the next fortnight to get to that point. In other words we would probably need about a 30% rise in cases in the next fortnight when all the data is actually pointing to daily case rates stabilising.

There is absolutely no evidence at all to say we can expect a repeat of April figures, none. Look all across Europe now - look at the rises in cases, look at the comparative death figures - all dropping by double digit multiples so to put a 4% fatality figure is fearmongering of the highest order and it does a severe disservice to vulnerable people who are impacted by the consequences of lockdowns and restrictions.

The mortality rate in the second wave is well below 1%

Since the 1st August we've had 63 Covid deaths and 21,741 Covid cases - that's a death rate of 0.29%. That's a death rate 13 times less than you have projected.

I'll also promise you this, if we have a death rate of 4% from Covid cases 1 Aug to 31 December I will have no problem resigning from this forum.

[sid waddell]

So Micheál Martin confirmed its the suppress and release strategy until "a safe vaccine is found".

Ouch...that's a serous roll of the dice .

3 weeks in lockdown then 3 weeks off then back in for an arbitrary amount of time is the worst scenario for anyone trying to run a business in the hospitality sector as no one knows whether they are coming or going so no one can confidently book a table or a room anywhere 3 weeks in advance. The business may or may not still be opened and the people who own or work in the business may or may not be entitled to some payment but they have no customers either way. Even when businesses where opened for a few weeks the rules ensured they couldn't really make a go off it. Max of 6 people, pub closed by 10, no music, nobody too drunk, only talk to person in your group, now talk of outdoor only venues in the middle of winter mean there was no appeal in going out anyhow. The same for anyone thinking of going abroad or coming to Ireland. It doesnt matter which countries are on the green or amber list or whatever.  Most people wont go anywhere as they dont want the hassle of guessing what different rules will be in place a week from now.  There are whole sectors of the economy screwed and the on off restrictions and rules that go along with it are only making it worse.

Sin é. You can't have party pubs in the middle of pandemic, that is as good as it gets.
The trick is to ensure that the R after the current lockdown is 1.2 instead of 1.4 then the vaccine will be coming on stream before another lockdown is needed.

Patrick Vallance said today there wouldn't be a vaccine until at least the spring

There was a guy from whatever umbrella group represents the restaurants on the radio last week calling for the lockdown to be implemented now in the hope it would be lifted for the pre-Christmas period

Said 30% of his business for the year is in the weeks leading up to Christmas

Can see us going back to Level 5 in January

Ultimately this endless circle of trap and release is not sustainable but the will is not there to put in place a strategy to open up but keep the virus down

It's rather worrying

It's chaotic, we either learn to live with the virus or we lock ourselves away for an infinite amount of time until it's done which seems mad.

But this open/close/open/close strategy is completely for the birds.

There simply must not be another lockdown, the next time we come out there should be no way we go back in.

Live with the virus means you come up with a suppression strategy so you can open up safely

It does not mean open up and allow the virus to spread wildly

This is what Dr. Nabarro from the WHO was talking about

[Angelo]

So Micheál Martin confirmed its the suppress and release strategy until "a safe vaccine is found".

Ouch...that's a serous roll of the dice .

3 weeks in lockdown then 3 weeks off then back in for an arbitrary amount of time is the worst scenario for anyone trying to run a business in the hospitality sector as no one knows whether they are coming or going so no one can confidently book a table or a room anywhere 3 weeks in advance. The business may or may not still be opened and the people who own or work in the business may or may not be entitled to some payment but they have no customers either way. Even when businesses where opened for a few weeks the rules ensured they couldn't really make a go off it. Max of 6 people, pub closed by 10, no music, nobody too drunk, only talk to person in your group, now talk of outdoor only venues in the middle of winter mean there was no appeal in going out anyhow. The same for anyone thinking of going abroad or coming to Ireland. It doesnt matter which countries are on the green or amber list or whatever.  Most people wont go anywhere as they dont want the hassle of guessing what different rules will be in place a week from now.  There are whole sectors of the economy screwed and the on off restrictions and rules that go along with it are only making it worse.

Sin é. You can't have party pubs in the middle of pandemic, that is as good as it gets.
The trick is to ensure that the R after the current lockdown is 1.2 instead of 1.4 then the vaccine will be coming on stream before another lockdown is needed.

Patrick Vallance said today there wouldn't be a vaccine until at least the spring

There was a guy from whatever umbrella group represents the restaurants on the radio last week calling for the lockdown to be implemented now in the hope it would be lifted for the pre-Christmas period

Said 30% of his business for the year is in the weeks leading up to Christmas

Can see us going back to Level 5 in January

Ultimately this endless circle of trap and release is not sustainable but the will is not there to put in place a strategy to open up but keep the virus down

It's rather worrying

It's chaotic, we either learn to live with the virus or we lock ourselves away for an infinite amount of time until it's done which seems mad.

But this open/close/open/close strategy is completely for the birds.

There simply must not be another lockdown, the next time we come out there should be no way we go back in.

Live with the virus means you come up with a suppression strategy so you can open up safely

It does not mean open up and allow the virus to spread wildly

This is what Dr. Nabarro from the WHO was talking about

People seem to be conflating the first wave with the second wave.

Since August 63 people have died from Covid in the O6.

A little less than one per day, have we any barometer what level of death is acceptable. If we find out in January and February that we had an extra 70 incidents of suicides, if domestic violence cases were up 80%, if mental health problems increased, if addictions relapses increased 40% - at which point would we say that the implementation of lockdowns and restrictive measures are actually having a much more negative societal impact than they are having a positive one.

So unless Governments have some break even point identified, some form of acceptable Covid risk identified then we are in serious bother as a society.

We live with seasonal flu, it puts the health system under pressure every year, it kills people, causes long lasting health problems - but governments clearly feel all those risks are acceptable to a certain level so what I want to know is what is deemed acceptable with Covid? What are we aiming for? The messaging from government is the most worrying aspect out of all of this, it's close your eyes and hope for the best. Repeat failed strategies and hope for the best.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

failed strategy, what is yours still waiting days later... and how would it effect all those issues addiction, suicide, somestic violance. You are very accepting of expects opinions on these no so much on covid!!!

i hate to say this but just to use your logic, we live with suicide, we live with addictions and domestic violance.. what is your acceptable level for these?

do you understand that without action the numbers increase week on week and as the numbers increase there is increased risk for the most vulnerable cohort and also it would put untold pressure on the health system which will have knock on effects other health services leading to more issues again foe the vulnerable and sick.

[Keyser soze]

Jeez Angelo you must be one of the stupidest people ever on this board, and that is saying something.

[sid waddell]

So Micheál Martin confirmed its the suppress and release strategy until "a safe vaccine is found".

Ouch...that's a serous roll of the dice .

3 weeks in lockdown then 3 weeks off then back in for an arbitrary amount of time is the worst scenario for anyone trying to run a business in the hospitality sector as no one knows whether they are coming or going so no one can confidently book a table or a room anywhere 3 weeks in advance. The business may or may not still be opened and the people who own or work in the business may or may not be entitled to some payment but they have no customers either way. Even when businesses where opened for a few weeks the rules ensured they couldn't really make a go off it. Max of 6 people, pub closed by 10, no music, nobody too drunk, only talk to person in your group, now talk of outdoor only venues in the middle of winter mean there was no appeal in going out anyhow. The same for anyone thinking of going abroad or coming to Ireland. It doesnt matter which countries are on the green or amber list or whatever.  Most people wont go anywhere as they dont want the hassle of guessing what different rules will be in place a week from now.  There are whole sectors of the economy screwed and the on off restrictions and rules that go along with it are only making it worse.

Sin é. You can't have party pubs in the middle of pandemic, that is as good as it gets.
The trick is to ensure that the R after the current lockdown is 1.2 instead of 1.4 then the vaccine will be coming on stream before another lockdown is needed.

Patrick Vallance said today there wouldn't be a vaccine until at least the spring

There was a guy from whatever umbrella group represents the restaurants on the radio last week calling for the lockdown to be implemented now in the hope it would be lifted for the pre-Christmas period

Said 30% of his business for the year is in the weeks leading up to Christmas

Can see us going back to Level 5 in January

Ultimately this endless circle of trap and release is not sustainable but the will is not there to put in place a strategy to open up but keep the virus down

It's rather worrying

It's chaotic, we either learn to live with the virus or we lock ourselves away for an infinite amount of time until it's done which seems mad.

But this open/close/open/close strategy is completely for the birds.

There simply must not be another lockdown, the next time we come out there should be no way we go back in.

Live with the virus means you come up with a suppression strategy so you can open up safely

It does not mean open up and allow the virus to spread wildly

This is what Dr. Nabarro from the WHO was talking about

People seem to be conflating the first wave with the second wave.

Since August 63 people have died from Covid in the O6.

A little less than one per day, have we any barometer what level of death is acceptable. If we find out in January and February that we had an extra 70 incidents of suicides, if domestic violence cases were up 80%, if mental health problems increased, if addictions relapses increased 40% - at which point would we say that the implementation of lockdowns and restrictive measures are actually having a much more negative societal impact than they are having a positive one.

So unless Governments have some break even point identified, some form of acceptable Covid risk identified then we are in serious bother as a society.

We live with seasonal flu, it puts the health system under pressure every year, it kills people, causes long lasting health problems - but governments clearly feel all those risks are acceptable to a certain level so what I want to know is what is deemed acceptable with Covid? What are we aiming for? The messaging from government is the most worrying aspect out of all of this, it's close your eyes and hope for the best. Repeat failed strategies and hope for the best.

Covid is not seasonal flu

It does not peak in January and then go away

It keeps going relentlessly

But that is not to say that there may not be a seasonal element to it

You are making cast iron assumptions based on totally incomplete evidence

Actually, what you are assuming is that the virus has mutated into a significantly less severe form

There is no evidence for that

The apparently lower death rate currently is likely down to dynamics we do not fully understand

Maybe the old and vulnerable are protecting themselves much more effectively than in the spring and it's largely the less vulnerable who are currently getting it

Masks could be playing a role in how serious a viral load people are receiving

Maybe the way the virus is being treated in hospitals is slightly more effective than in spring

Yet in the US deaths are continuing to tick along at a pretty steady rate and have been doing so since the summer

The more the virus spreads, the harder it is to protect the old and vulnerable and then there's a very good chance the assumptions you are making about death rates will look very foolish

[sid waddell]

failed strategy, what is yours still waiting days later... and how would it effect all those issues addiction, suicide, somestic violance. You are very accepting of expects opinions on these no so much on covid!!!

i hate to say this but just to use your logic, we live with suicide, we live with addictions and domestic violance.. what is your acceptable level for these?

do you understand that without action the numbers increase week on week and as the numbers increase there is increased risk for the most vulnerable cohort and also it would put untold pressure on the health system which will have knock on effects other health services leading to more issues again foe the vulnerable and sick.

This should be a basic question for those who are against these new level 5 restrictions - what is your strategy?

[Angelo]

So Micheál Martin confirmed its the suppress and release strategy until "a safe vaccine is found".

Ouch...that's a serous roll of the dice .

3 weeks in lockdown then 3 weeks off then back in for an arbitrary amount of time is the worst scenario for anyone trying to run a business in the hospitality sector as no one knows whether they are coming or going so no one can confidently book a table or a room anywhere 3 weeks in advance. The business may or may not still be opened and the people who own or work in the business may or may not be entitled to some payment but they have no customers either way. Even when businesses where opened for a few weeks the rules ensured they couldn't really make a go off it. Max of 6 people, pub closed by 10, no music, nobody too drunk, only talk to person in your group, now talk of outdoor only venues in the middle of winter mean there was no appeal in going out anyhow. The same for anyone thinking of going abroad or coming to Ireland. It doesnt matter which countries are on the green or amber list or whatever.  Most people wont go anywhere as they dont want the hassle of guessing what different rules will be in place a week from now.  There are whole sectors of the economy screwed and the on off restrictions and rules that go along with it are only making it worse.

Sin é. You can't have party pubs in the middle of pandemic, that is as good as it gets.
The trick is to ensure that the R after the current lockdown is 1.2 instead of 1.4 then the vaccine will be coming on stream before another lockdown is needed.

Patrick Vallance said today there wouldn't be a vaccine until at least the spring

There was a guy from whatever umbrella group represents the restaurants on the radio last week calling for the lockdown to be implemented now in the hope it would be lifted for the pre-Christmas period

Said 30% of his business for the year is in the weeks leading up to Christmas

Can see us going back to Level 5 in January

Ultimately this endless circle of trap and release is not sustainable but the will is not there to put in place a strategy to open up but keep the virus down

It's rather worrying

It's chaotic, we either learn to live with the virus or we lock ourselves away for an infinite amount of time until it's done which seems mad.

But this open/close/open/close strategy is completely for the birds.

There simply must not be another lockdown, the next time we come out there should be no way we go back in.

Live with the virus means you come up with a suppression strategy so you can open up safely

It does not mean open up and allow the virus to spread wildly

This is what Dr. Nabarro from the WHO was talking about

People seem to be conflating the first wave with the second wave.

Since August 63 people have died from Covid in the O6.

A little less than one per day, have we any barometer what level of death is acceptable. If we find out in January and February that we had an extra 70 incidents of suicides, if domestic violence cases were up 80%, if mental health problems increased, if addictions relapses increased 40% - at which point would we say that the implementation of lockdowns and restrictive measures are actually having a much more negative societal impact than they are having a positive one.

So unless Governments have some break even point identified, some form of acceptable Covid risk identified then we are in serious bother as a society.

We live with seasonal flu, it puts the health system under pressure every year, it kills people, causes long lasting health problems - but governments clearly feel all those risks are acceptable to a certain level so what I want to know is what is deemed acceptable with Covid? What are we aiming for? The messaging from government is the most worrying aspect out of all of this, it's close your eyes and hope for the best. Repeat failed strategies and hope for the best.

Covid is not seasonal flu

It does not peak in January and then go away

It keeps going relentlessly

But that is not to say that there may not be a seasonal element to it

You are making cast iron assumptions based on totally incomplete evidence

Actually, what you are assuming is that the virus has mutated into a significantly less severe form

There is no evidence for that

The apparently lower death rate currently is likely down to dynamics we do not fully understand

Maybe the old and vulnerable are protecting themselves much more effectively than in the spring and it's largely the less vulnerable who are currently getting it

Masks could be playing a role in how serious a viral load people are receiving

Maybe the way the virus is being treated in hospitals is slightly more effective than in spring

Yet in the US deaths are continuing to tick along at a pretty steady rate and have been doing so since the summer

The more the virus spreads, the harder it is to protect the old and vulnerable and then there's a very good chance the assumptions you are making about death rates will look very foolish

I'm not making any assumptions.

What am I saying is that people are becoming consumed by a virus which current data shows fatality rates at around 0.29% of positive cases - probably lower as testing is probably not catching close to the true amount of positive cases and currently has an ICU incidence rate of 0.11%. That is what the current data tells us. There are no assumptions there

And once again, complete and utter ignorance of the widespread and long term detrimental consequences to so many vulnerable factions of society that lockdowns and restrictions bring.

So I will ask you again, at what measure do we say there is an acceptable level of risk and death with Covid, like we do with seasonal flu every year? Not one person has addressed this yet, not one. I'll have all the blowhards here, sniping away like the cowards they are but when they are pushed for an answer on that, their yellow underbelly is there for all to see.

I've made the point that we live with flu, it causes death, it causes health problems, it puts strain on the health service - yet we accept all that with it. We accept the deaths, we accept the health problems, we accept the strain on the health service, we accept the level of risk. So at which point does Covid carry an acceptable level of risk? That one is for all the blowhards here, have any of the posters happy enough to take their snide shots a pair of balls big enough to answer that question? Anyone?

[sid waddell]

Cases are rising across Europe. There should be countries in Europe bucking this trend a little.

The common thinking that we've been following should allow those who enjoy a warmer climate, and have a population less tactile and less reliant on alcohol, a more prosperous autumn than us. If they have a more militant police force, even more so again.

But this isn't happening.

So the cause of wildfire spreading has to be something (or a group of things) that's common to us all.

For me, the one thing that seems to connect us  is that everyone sent their kids back to school between the end of August and the middle of September. Then, 2 or 3 weeks later, cases rose.

Obviously I've not the time nor will to research this accurately. It's just instinct. I would call it logic but I'm sure I'll be dismissed by others for having that level of confidence.

But I do believe it's the core commonality across Europe.

This is rare but I think I actually agree with you

[Angelo]

failed strategy, what is yours still waiting days later... and how would it effect all those issues addiction, suicide, somestic violance. You are very accepting of expects opinions on these no so much on covid!!!

i hate to say this but just to use your logic, we live with suicide, we live with addictions and domestic violance.. what is your acceptable level for these?

do you understand that without action the numbers increase week on week and as the numbers increase there is increased risk for the most vulnerable cohort and also it would put untold pressure on the health system which will have knock on effects other health services leading to more issues again foe the vulnerable and sick.

Jesus Christ.

I have given it to about 10 times now.

Exactly what we were doing before we went into the second lockdown.

Keep businesses open, practice social distancing, wear masks, good hand hygiene, limited indoor crowds. That is the strategy I would have kept.

I've told you this countless times now, that is what I think is the best course of action. We need to learn to live with the virus, we can't keep going in and out of lockdowns because for me the consequences of such are far, far, far more concerning than a virus which we can see at present has a 0.11% ICU incidence rate and a 0.29% fatality rate. I would speculate, and remember all of us are only speculating here - though the arrogance of the lockdown crew would have you think they know it all, that the wider societal impacts are much more consequential than this.

There is no strategy from government only lockdown to lower cases, open up to rise cases, lockdown to lower, open up to rise, repeat until such time as science cracks it which could be never. I think we are better off getting on with it.

[sid waddell]

So Micheál Martin confirmed its the suppress and release strategy until "a safe vaccine is found".

Ouch...that's a serous roll of the dice .

3 weeks in lockdown then 3 weeks off then back in for an arbitrary amount of time is the worst scenario for anyone trying to run a business in the hospitality sector as no one knows whether they are coming or going so no one can confidently book a table or a room anywhere 3 weeks in advance. The business may or may not still be opened and the people who own or work in the business may or may not be entitled to some payment but they have no customers either way. Even when businesses where opened for a few weeks the rules ensured they couldn't really make a go off it. Max of 6 people, pub closed by 10, no music, nobody too drunk, only talk to person in your group, now talk of outdoor only venues in the middle of winter mean there was no appeal in going out anyhow. The same for anyone thinking of going abroad or coming to Ireland. It doesnt matter which countries are on the green or amber list or whatever.  Most people wont go anywhere as they dont want the hassle of guessing what different rules will be in place a week from now.  There are whole sectors of the economy screwed and the on off restrictions and rules that go along with it are only making it worse.

Sin é. You can't have party pubs in the middle of pandemic, that is as good as it gets.
The trick is to ensure that the R after the current lockdown is 1.2 instead of 1.4 then the vaccine will be coming on stream before another lockdown is needed.

Patrick Vallance said today there wouldn't be a vaccine until at least the spring

There was a guy from whatever umbrella group represents the restaurants on the radio last week calling for the lockdown to be implemented now in the hope it would be lifted for the pre-Christmas period

Said 30% of his business for the year is in the weeks leading up to Christmas

Can see us going back to Level 5 in January

Ultimately this endless circle of trap and release is not sustainable but the will is not there to put in place a strategy to open up but keep the virus down

It's rather worrying

It's chaotic, we either learn to live with the virus or we lock ourselves away for an infinite amount of time until it's done which seems mad.

But this open/close/open/close strategy is completely for the birds.

There simply must not be another lockdown, the next time we come out there should be no way we go back in.

Live with the virus means you come up with a suppression strategy so you can open up safely

It does not mean open up and allow the virus to spread wildly

This is what Dr. Nabarro from the WHO was talking about

People seem to be conflating the first wave with the second wave.

Since August 63 people have died from Covid in the O6.

A little less than one per day, have we any barometer what level of death is acceptable. If we find out in January and February that we had an extra 70 incidents of suicides, if domestic violence cases were up 80%, if mental health problems increased, if addictions relapses increased 40% - at which point would we say that the implementation of lockdowns and restrictive measures are actually having a much more negative societal impact than they are having a positive one.

So unless Governments have some break even point identified, some form of acceptable Covid risk identified then we are in serious bother as a society.

We live with seasonal flu, it puts the health system under pressure every year, it kills people, causes long lasting health problems - but governments clearly feel all those risks are acceptable to a certain level so what I want to know is what is deemed acceptable with Covid? What are we aiming for? The messaging from government is the most worrying aspect out of all of this, it's close your eyes and hope for the best. Repeat failed strategies and hope for the best.

Covid is not seasonal flu

It does not peak in January and then go away

It keeps going relentlessly

But that is not to say that there may not be a seasonal element to it

You are making cast iron assumptions based on totally incomplete evidence

Actually, what you are assuming is that the virus has mutated into a significantly less severe form

There is no evidence for that

The apparently lower death rate currently is likely down to dynamics we do not fully understand

Maybe the old and vulnerable are protecting themselves much more effectively than in the spring and it's largely the less vulnerable who are currently getting it

Masks could be playing a role in how serious a viral load people are receiving

Maybe the way the virus is being treated in hospitals is slightly more effective than in spring

Yet in the US deaths are continuing to tick along at a pretty steady rate and have been doing so since the summer

The more the virus spreads, the harder it is to protect the old and vulnerable and then there's a very good chance the assumptions you are making about death rates will look very foolish

I'm not making any assumptions.

What am I saying is that people are becoming consumed by a virus which current data shows fatality rates at around 0.29% of positive cases - probably lower as testing is probably not catching close to the true amount of positive cases and currently has an ICU incidence rate of 0.11%. That is what the current data tells us. There are no assumptions there

And once again, complete and utter ignorance of the widespread and long term detrimental consequences to so many vulnerable factions of society that lockdowns and restrictions bring.

So I will ask you again, at what measure do we say there is an acceptable level of risk and death with Covid, like we do with seasonal flu every year? Not one person has addressed this yet, not one. I'll have all the blowhards here, sniping away like the cowards they are but when they are pushed for an answer on that, their yellow underbelly is there for all to see.

I've made the point that we live with flu, it causes death, it causes health problems, it puts strain on the health service - yet we accept all that with it. We accept the deaths, we accept the health problems, we accept the strain on the health service, we accept the level of risk. So at which point does Covid carry an acceptable level of risk? That one is for all the blowhards here, have any of the posters happy enough to take their snide shots a pair of balls big enough to answer that question? Anyone?

But you're refusing to elaborate on why you think death rates are currently lower than in spring

It seems clear that you really do believe the virus has mutated into a significantly less serious form

If you don't believe that, then there has been literally no point to your last 20 pages of posts

[johnnycool]

Jeez Angelo you must be one of the stupidest people ever on this board, and that is saying something.

He's in good company if you look into the Great Barrington Declaration but look even deeper as to the right wing cúnts who funded it and all becomes clear.

[GetOverTheBar]

Jeez Angelo you must be one of the stupidest people ever on this board, and that is saying something.

Jesus lads, this is definitely the most anger filled thread in here in some time.

Angelo has some points like everyone else, some of the stuff he says is probably going to turn out true over the course of time. Some of the stuff, will be wrong.

Everyone is guessing at this stage still really, scarily.

[armaghniac]

Everyone is guessing at this stage still really, scarily.

Yes, we are all guessing to some extent, but the likes of Stephen Fauci has a team of 100 people with PhDs, his guesses are a hell of a lot more solidly based than randomers on the Internet.